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Give Me Your Cell Phone!

Shawn Boonstra


Your cell phone is private, and no government should ever think of prying without a warrant, right? But what if your safety is in jeopardy? Shawn Boonstra speaks with a former police officer who would've loved to search your cell phone in the right circumstance.


Shawn Boonstra

Speaker/Director for the Voice of Prophecy media ministry.



  • March 16, 2016
    11:30 AM
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Welcome to another edition of disclosure the brand new radio broadcast from the good people at the voice of prophecy. My name is Sean Brewster I will be your host from right here in beautiful downtown Loveland Colorado where the people are great the air is a little thin because of the altitude and actually the very location where the voice of prophecy was born not the broadcast but the founder H.M.S. Richards who first went on the air after he moved to California went on the air in one nine hundred twenty nine and today on disclosure. I've got a special guest His name is Alex Rodriguez he is joining me in studio Alex welcome to the show. Thanks so much. You're no stranger to the voice of prophecy because you actually work right here in our evangelism and Bible school department. That's right. That's right yes so it's you know we couldn't afford to get anybody from the outside we couldn't go and get a real expert so we just went upstairs and grabbed you so you got the you got the baseball player Alex Rodriguez I got the baseball player tired now and I work for the G.O.P. work for the voice. This is our very own Alex Rodriguez not the baseball player and Alex you and I met in the city of Indianapolis a few years ago and the reason that we're sitting together in studio today is because of a discussion you and I actually had in an airport just a weeks ago we were traveling together and. I was reading the paper and I saw this headline that talked about at privacy issue and I turn to you because in your former life before you were a preacher you were actually a cop weren't you. That's right. So I want to talk to a police officer slash minister who who knew something about privacy because personally. Alex I've got to tell you I'm a little irritated or maybe concerned is the better word about some of the things that are happening in America today I'm watching freedom get eroded and I know we're going to end up in a Bible study eventually on this but I want to talk to you you're a preacher you're a former police officer and and that story from Vermont was about cell phone. That's right it was it was about cell phones and it was it was specifically about seeking the ability to look into a cell phone without a warrant. Yeah that bugged me to no end I'm such a stickler for privacy I said I think the bill that was being proposed in Vermont I don't know if it's passed yet or not or what became of it but the proposal was to let a police officer at a roadside stop look through your phone without a warrant to see frankly if you've been texting and driving and I'm not in favor of texting and driving but I gotta tell ya like some not in favor of letting the cop. Let's say it's me that's been pulled over you've pulled me over. I am not in favor of letting you look through my cell phone. And of course coming from from the law enforcement side and being out on that road. I look at this law and I think to myself What a great opportunity this is this is perfect I'd love to have the ability to do that why would a cop want to do that I mean I don't I'm not I don't want you to see pictures of my kids and my wife and I don't want you to see my dinner reservation on my calendar none of your business so why is it why are you so excited as a cop and I really don't care about your you know I love your your your wife and kids and pictures and but I don't really care to see those it doesn't matter to me I'm not going to do anything with those what I'm looking for is another another level another ability that I can to make a case that will help society that will that will prevent the loss of life and we're talking about texting and driving. Of course we're talking about preventing the loss of life in fact here on this this article that I pulled and I think this was from from Burlington The Burlington Free Press they quoted that twenty four percent of the Vermont crashes last year were from using the telephone. They had fifty fatalities in Vermont loans you know that is unacceptable to me I mean I got irritated in traffic yesterday because the car in front of me was moving at an absolutely irritating slow rate of speed like eight miles an hour and as I finally pulled around the. The driver she was on her phone texting somebody that's right and we see it all the time and in fact it's one of the reasons that that I got rid of my motorcycle here a couple years ago. I just couldn't get over the fact that you know it was dangerous enough to to ride a bike but couldn't get over the fact that these drivers are no longer paying any attention whatsoever. And one texting person of course is going to is going to throw your bike over the road and that's the end of your life you know I and I'm torn here I've got to I got a minute here on radio that I'm guilty of texting and driving. Oh no say it isn't so I want you in front know it was a let you know well you know as a lady. You know I have and you know Lady I have tried to curb that and in fact. I'm doing stuff like like sticking my phone in my bag and zipping it up and then putting it in the backseat so if I needed to get the thing manual out an alcoholic. Yes to hide the pot I don't neighbor's house and tell and and what's interesting is there's a lot of conversations around around the the globe right now here in the U.S. especially about whether or not this needs to be the case for phones do we need to put them away in glove boxes do we need to treat them as in open alcohol bottle and I can see those discussions I can understand that there's a frustration I think that's coming across legislation or. Legislators that the numbers of deaths in accidents are increasing and there's nothing that we can do while we we tout to the beauty of the of the freedom where we kind of look at it as if as freedom of technology and what it has allowed us to do. It's the same technology that's causing us lives. So you pulled the article from I stepped on you you were going to refer to the article that you had polled regarding this I'm still kind of but I want to cut down on the accidents it drives me nuts that somebody is so we responsible that they'll text and drive and frankly put my life or my family's life in jeopardy to get a text message. But at the same time a warrantless search I'm not. I'm not a fan. I'm not a fan at all and I think you're a couple of items right off the article that you would probably be concerned about it and me too. I mean I don't want to say just yes do I am concerned about this it is it is a freedom issue we're talking about the Constitution and things that we need to we need to in in good faith protect as much as possible but here's a statement. They're asking Vermonters to give up some of their privacy in exchange for safer roads right and that takes me back to a quote those who exchange liberty for safety deserve neither it's attributed to Ben Franklin That's apocryphal but the quote kind of stands for me and I willing to trade my privacy and my liberty for safety and my answer's no I want to take care I'll handle my safety you stay out of that but no I don't think that's worth the price but keep going but at the same time it's not asking for all of your privacy it's just asking for a little bit of your privacy. Yeah this week and then next week a little more of my privacy and we've lost so much of that in America anyway the that we're starting to say that the reasonable expectation of privacy is dropped. You don't really have one anymore but keep going with your article and we'll talk a little bit more we can as the as the program continues we'll talk a little bit more about the slippery slope in how this this loss of privacy is just going downhill and I'm not I'm really not totally sure we're going to be able to reverse this thing you know but but it is true we are losing some liberties but at the same time there have been things that we have already allowed it to happen that has lost even even to an extent of of of having a. Oh you know if you think about law enforcement if you think about military no longer do we defend ourselves. But there are legal legal laws in place that give them. Right to the law enforcement officer. OK And and so in a way we've already said OK we're going to give away some of these personal liberties to this individual in the government. They'll take care of it and I'll sit here and allow them to do so now that doesn't take away the fact that I can protect myself but what that does do is that it places the empathies on them and if I do take action there's a high liability for me taking action in sort of a law enforcement capacity so in some ways and in some areas we've already sort of given that that away. But there's you know there's very very difficult statements in this particular are Article one talks about implied consent. How much. Will we allow implied consent to dictate what it is that we can and can't do on the road in fact the statement that was made here is this dramatic expansion of implied consent comes with serious problems. So what is implied consent will implied consent going to vehicles because this is what this this article other article was all about or this particular article is about implied consent means that when you get your driver's license and you make some agreements right off the bat. There's a contract with the rest of society. There's a contract with the society and the government there saying this is a privilege to drive on the roads. I'm going to give you this driver's license as long as you sign on the bottom line here of the hero of the deal and I have to admit no are constitutionally and apologies to those of you listening outside of America but we're dealing with an American issue and I hope you still find it fascinating because it will trickle into every other western civilization. But we don't have a right to drive. We've got a right to life liberty property but not to drive. That's right that's right. And probably it's a good thing to say here too that I'm not a lawyer right. And so I let know you're just because you're a cop that's right been pulled over by your kind and you've been Yeah you've been pulled over by. I kind of my kind. So you've got this implied consent when we get this implied consent signed or this this driver's license contract signed and then we have implied that we're willing to follow the rules. Well there's a couple of rules in here and one of those Me says that. That law enforcement can stop you when you when you violate the road laws but then they can require you to do certain things as you as they're investigating whether or not you're in violation of certain laws and what this individual is saying is that this would expand those implied consent. Legislate that legislative laws or rules that are already there and we'll get we'll get to that here in just a few minutes as we go through what searches are all about insurance search a car. Now I know that some people are probably wondering this is the voice of prophecy isn't this isn't the legal help desk or dial a cop. I know that eventually we're going to end up looking at why privacy is a big issue and it happens to be a prophetic issue a voice a prophecy issue will get there eventually but I wanted a police officer in a minister on the other side of the desk today to talk about you know where are those lines of privacy and I want to see it from that side of the the window. The driver window. The guy who's standing outside. Absolutely and I think that that as we as we as we continue on it's going to give fairly interesting especially as we look at scripture and the differences between our law and that of the Bible. Well we're going to take a break in a few minutes but why don't you start talking to me about searching vehicles from a cop's perspective. OK So looking at a car. There's there's different tiers of evidence that that we need to we need to look at we need to talk about as far as what you can and can't do with these different tears before that let me let me just go read the Fourth Amendment. Yeah OK that's probably a good foundational point for them it says this the right of the people to be secure in their persons houses papers and effects against unreasonable searches and seizures shall not be violated and no Warrants shall issue but upon probable cause supported by Oath or affirmation and particularly describing the place to be searched and the persons or things to be seized. That's pretty clear cut. I'm secure in my person and my effects. You need a warrant if you're coming through my door. That's right that's ultimately what it says. But I want to bring your attention to one particular word here and that's unreasonable right. So written into the Fourth Amendment of the Constitution is already a way out it. There's already there's been a circular invented method right there and it's in that word unreasonable against unreasonable searches and this will be the argument from the time that the Fourth Amendment was put in place all the way until Jesus comes. What makes an unreasonable search. What makes a reasonable search so this is where the debate begins to happen it's around one word unreasonable Alex we are up against the break I'm sitting down with Alex Rodriguez not the famous baseball player but our very own voice of prophecy evangelism coordinator and he's a minister and a former drug enforcement officer and has done lots of roadside searches which is why I hauled him in here when I read about this move towards warrantless searches of the cell phones you are listening to the voice of prophecy and we will be back in just a moment. I want you to grab a pen and paper because what you're about to hear could literally change your life you want to write down this information and take advantage of this free offer from the voice of prophecy one of the oldest running Christian broadcasts in America and in the world and the sponsor of one of the biggest Bible schools. In the entire world. That's what I want you to listen to we're going to be back in a few moments voicer prophecies disclosure with Alex Rodriguez. Are you searching for answers to life's toughest questions like Where is God when we suffer. Can I find real happiness or is there any hope for our chaotic world. The discoverable guides will help you find the answers you're looking for Visit us at Bible studies dot com or give us a call at eight eight eight four five six seven nine three three for your free discover Bible guides study online on our secure website or have the free guides mailed right to your home. 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But the reason he's here is not because he works at the Bible School and evangelism department the voice of prophecy the reason that I've asked him here is because he was a cop he used to be the guy who pulled you over at the side of the road and just before the break we were talking about searching cars and we were talking about a proposed bill in Vermont that talked about warrantless searches of cell phones and so Alex. Let's go back in time to when you were a police officer you've just pulled me over up I'll make myself the guinea pig. You've pulled me over at the side of the road and you really want to get into my car and look around what's it going to tag seventy times it has that happened. It has just for the sake of argument it has never ever happened. It has never ever happened I haven't always been a Christian so. Why as a preacher I can't lie there were times in a former life I've been pulled over to say that for minor moving violations minor. Well and that's excellent because that's really where we start with minor moving violation and it opens up the world to everything else we really want to try to get accomplished. That sounds terrible. We're not really trying to accomplish anything but take criminals off the road but minor move moving violations is the opening door. Well before we talk a little bit about how to get into the car. It's probably important to understand the evidentiary tiers levels of evidence that are needed in order to do anything in the in the legal system the very first one is something that's called mere suspicion. You don't like the way I look I think that's right it's just simply a hunch you have nothing you've got absolutely nothing you look at something and something triggers a thought in your brain of this isn't right it's it's a flag what can you do with mere suspicion right. Probably the easiest way to define what you can do with it with mere suspicion is to just say zero right. You can do nothing with it that's of any tangible value as far as as prosecution is concerned mere suspicion simply says that something looks weird and I need to keep looking at it I need to keep digging around and obviously the longer you've been on the road as an officer the more you hone that instinct. That's right and that's where knowledge training and experience a term that you'll often hear in the legal world knowledge training and experience plays a part in fact it's interesting to note that many young officers and hopefully not throwing young officers off the cliff here but many young officers make the mistake of not taking action because they think that all they have is mere suspicion right. They haven't learned how to articulate there's another big term force they haven't learned how to articulate what they see. And make something out of it and so. They don't realize that when they're thinking they have mere suspicion they actually have reasonable suspicion. Sometimes even probable cause and so they let things. Let things go. But at the beginning level at the foundational level at the bottom. You have simple mere suspicion. OK There's been times I remember sometimes back on the road where I had mere suspicion within the context of reasonable suspicion I remember stopping a car in the middle of the night I was the only car that was working in my city my close as backup was the county and it was probably a good fifteen twenty minutes away before they could get to me and as I grabbed this driver's license from this individual approached the car grabbed his driver's license there was this overwhelming feeling I've only felt this twice in my law enforcement career twelve years in law enforcement I've only felt this twice overwhelming feeling that there was something absolutely wrong. More than just the traffic stop and the longer I stayed out there the war that that stood out in my mind and it was just simply mere suspicion I had absolutely nothing. And it got to the point where it wasn't one of these things of of there's there's something wrong with. With you giving him a ticket or anything anything of that nature it was there is absolutely something wrong if you stay here you're not going to make it a life. OK And that was that that was was going through my gut feeling a gut feeling informed by a previous experience probably informed you and I could have pursued that like like a lion which I typically did I mean I was relentless when I was after you were that cop I was that cop man I was I was a terrible terrible I was just I could see it. I can see it you were a terrible cop. I mean. I remember I remember writing like over one hundred tickets in my first year a month hundred tickets I'm a hundred seats. I brought you that cup that's that's but I come down from that but at any rate that was me. There was there was not much I could do other then to continue looking continue searching and so I ended up but just let the guy go I didn't have anything and I needed to listen to what I later realized was the Holy Spirit speaking but mere suspicion really gets you gets you nothing now you can make conversation with mere suspicion. So if I see you on the road and something is and there's a flag. I can start talking to you and say hey what's going on what are you been doing right. But you can also tell me Go jump right. At this point I'm the guy who says I do not consent to searches or my being detained officer am I being detained off yeah. And at that point I would have to say No sir you're not being detained but I just wanted to have a conversation and you could say Go jump in that's it I'm done. OK All right the next level and we're not advising this folks I do recommend the Bible says live peaceably with all men if you can and obey the government. That's right wopper it with the police I'm not anti-police at all I am I am so pro police you know there's a saying in police departments and police officers if you cut me I believe blue and that is that is so true for me and I'm there to Alex I just want to there is a prophetic reason we are going to end up at a conclusion because I think this will tie into Bible prophecy has really done and I want everybody to understand what happens when searches start and suspicion starts a Trek The Next Level in will quickly go through this next level it's reasonable suspicion at this point I have something that I can articulate I can see that a reasonable individual would think that a crime had been committed was being committed or was about to be committed. I can articulate these facts they might not be probable cause to make an arrest but there's enough articulable facts out there that I can say any reasonable person would say this is not right and at that point I can do a few more things here I can actually make a stop here this is this is no longer something that's consensual like mere suspicion where I come and talk to you on the side of the road. Now I can actually stop do you stop me and if you say Go jump. It's not going to matter because now I have legal. Landing. Good to detain you now am I being detained your answer is yes you know my answer is absolutely yes because if you challenge that and take me a court. I have reasonable articulable facts that that I'm going to say this is why I stopped them. OK And so that's that's reasonable suspicion. Then we move on to two probable cause I hear this one a lot Rob It will cause probable cause and what's interesting about probable cause is that there's really different levels of probable cause it's all probable cause it's enough in order to get you to do what you need to do but it doesn't necessarily mean that that you have free reign. So in a in a cart stop. If I see that you are violating the law you were speeding for example. That's probable cause that's not reasonable suspicion. It's probable cause I had a I had a radar I I clocked you you're thirty five miles an hour over and sure enough I have probable cause at this point I can stop you I can detain you and I can technically arrest you right now where you don't have time to get into that but a ticket when I give you a citation it's a citation in lieu of arrest. So that I'm not taking you in but technically. I could I could take you in so you can do just a little bit more with that kind of problem because from gut feeling to reasonable suspicion to probable cause and then when we get into the the court once let's say I've made an arrest and you're going to court. Now you could be a jury trial or it could just be before a judge whatever it is depending on how severe the crime is then I have to meet the level of proof beyond a reasonable doubt. OK. And at this point I have to show so much evidence that any reasonable person would say. There's no doubt in my mind that you did it right and if you're at any level below proof beyond a reasonable doubt then you're not convicted right. And this of course is what's happening with on juries you know as the jury is in there and they're deliberating they're going back and. At the end one individual out of that jury says I'm just not convinced. So we're really erring on the side of safety for the individual citizen absolutely body better be clear that you're guilty or else. Absolutely if you will it's really if you think about it sort of diverting now to the Bible for a second. This was the biblical principle upon which the law was found always a dagger in favor of the accused always stacked in favor of the kids do you know you had to do a whole lot and you had to prove a whole lot in order for the accused to be convicted correct which was why it was so surprising that Jesus was convicted how climate was infected that one was a rigged trial it was so absolutely right corrupt. So we spent other programs talking about the fact that a lot of the foundations of a constitutional republic in America came from biblical thought and I think this is one of those probable cause moves to prove beyond a reasonable doubt and then. So prove beyond reasonable doubt in then there's a couple of others all the hippies and just go off because this is typically in the civil law. There's a preponderance of the evidence there's clear and convincing evidence. These are usually in civil laws they are less than proof beyond a reasonable doubt. Let's just deal with the with the criminal system proof is our biggest one. Now when you get into the searches themselves. You have three different types of searches you have a consent search. OK you have a warrantless search and then you have a warrant. So a consent search probably is can I look at your do you mind if I look in your trunk right. So and I say Officer I do not consent to search you do not consent to searches in this is what I would do if I stop you. I would I would smell a rat right away and then I'd say Mr Shawn would you mind if if I look in your car. I do not I'm sorry officer I do not consent to searches and you have the absolute right to do that right. And I'm saying that for the sake of argument and normally I do have a cape cooperate with the police. I'm thinking down the road prophetically and we'll come to that. You're part of the program that's right that's right so you have the absolute right to say no I don't consent to searches but I do I do want to say that many individuals who talk about I don't I don't have to consent to searches and I'm going to stand against the police and all this thing. All these things and I don't I don't write and are not you're not you're not one of those but I've often read in articles or you know seen a You Tube video where these guys are just sort of making objects out of themselves what they forget is that the officer also has other rights right that they can put into place and some of these rights are exigent right some of these rights have to deal with with ways that the legal system has interpreted the law and made a way around and so you might be standing there and you might be saying I don't consent to searches and yet I'm sitting there standing. I've got exigent circumstances. I am going to be able to accomplish what what I need to get accomplished. So you have consent searches you have warrantless search right. A warrant less search which is what we're talking about with the so it's an issue actually what we're talking about a warrantless search basically says that I'm not going to go get a warrant and I'm not going to ask you for consent. I'm just going to simply do what needs to get done. OK I'm going to search and then of course you have the standard which is the way that the Fourth Amendment would have us do things and that is not going to charge again a warrant go to get that one yes to obtain a warrant at all times except when they're there's exceptions. Now I know everybody's wondering why we're talking about this on the voice of prophecy and we are running out of time Alex in the first half of the show and unfortunately in some markets we're about to go off the air and if you're in one of those unfortunate markets where you only broadcast the first half hour of the program. Don't worry you can get the whole thing at Voice of prophecy dot com Look for the interview with Alex Rodriguez and we are in the next half of the program when we come back from the break Alex going to go a little bit deeper talk about some case studies but I eventually want to end up in Bible prophecy where you know I know a lot of people will say but Sean if you've got nothing to. I get nothing to worry about the truth is no. I've got nothing to hide I haven't broken any criminal laws but bible prophecy shows me there may be a day coming where my very faith is a crime and in that case I want to know where those lines are and always cooperate with government serving God first but I'll always cooperate with government if we're going off the market until next time but if you're joining us we'll be back right after these words on the voice prompts Hello I'm Do you feel as if your life has lost its meaning just moving from one task to another without any answers to the really important questions in life. Like is it possible to have a fresh start and to find real happiness. Well the Discover Bible guides will help you find the answers that you're looking for to this and to all of life's big questions. Visit us at Bible studies dot com or give us a call at eight eight eight four five six seven nine three three for your free discover Bible guides you can choose to study in the format that's most convenient for you you may either do the lessons completely online or have them mailed right to your home both options are completely free of charge. Visit Bible studies dot com and begin your journey today to discover answers to life's deepest questions. Welcome back to disclosure that you broadcast from the voice of prophecy My name is Shawn bootstrapped and I am your host and this is actually the second part of our program if you missed the first part you could find the whole thing at Voice of prophecy dot com We are sitting down today with former officer Alex Rodriguez who now works at the voice of prophecy. He's a pastor a minister of the Gospel but we're talking about privacy issues we're talking about a proposed bill that was in Vermont recently that would have allowed officers to search your cell phone without a war. And we were talking before the break about what it takes for an officer to pull you over and search your car and so on and I know that it sounds like a legal course Alex that we're discussing but there is a method to our madness. We are headed for the Bible in for Bible prophecy eventually but just before the break we were talking about your rights with a cell phone and I think this is especially pertinent one of the biggest debates in America recently was over the cell phones used by the terrorists in. In San Bernardino and Apple's refusal to help the F.B.I. at least initially cracked that phone and get the information now we were talking about terrorist cell phones we were talking about the cell phones of every day private citizens the people listening to the show today and I want you to just carry on where you were we we were talking about search and seizure of cell phones maybe not the seizure of it in we were talking about the Fourth Amendment so talk to me about the Fourth Amendment does it matter so the Fourth Amendment matters greatly. I mean obviously it's part of the Constitution. The problem of course is what we do with with these amendments that tend to be short. At some point we have to look at that and say OK how does it apply to everything else that we do. And as we mentioned earlier in the first fifteen minutes or so there is a there's a statement or there's a word in here called on reasonable. Right reasonable searches that allows you a an avenue to sort of that's the back door that's where the debate happens on the word unreasonable. That's right so let's talk a little bit about about the car stop that we were talking about earlier and getting to go to your phone specifically so I stop it car. I ask you for a consent search you say no you know I can I can try to do a warrantless search I can try to get a warrant all these things are applicable and the question that I think we need to discuss is how in the world going down to two to the fine detail. No of this how in the world could it be possible to search your phone how could that be legal right based on the fourth the Fourth Amendment and this is what I'd like to call gradual permissiveness this is this is sort of the slippery slope when we've been sliding down this slope for for some time and there are some things that that set this up so when we looked at the forthcoming Fourth Amendment. We decided OK it's very difficult to apply this by by letter of the law and so there has to be some type of exception because if you apply it the nothing will ever get done the legal system will never be able to prosecute anybody going to extremes right now right. But it just be very very difficult at some point we have to make some exceptions for law enforcement to be able to do their job. For the good of the community. So in other words for your good for your safety Sean. There has to be some exceptions for law enforcement to be able absolutely I want you to search a cell phone if it's an ISIS cell group. I don't want you to search mine. So there's your exception. Right it's easy when we look at where it is not even easy then because then we've we've got we've got issues of privacy as well that are sure to our life but it's easier when you're to when you're thinking about ISIS but what about when you're thinking about DUIs For example when you were thinking about texting and driving this is what we're talking about which is a form of impaired driving frankly it exactly even even just driving tired is costing lives. So there's a there's a few steps of things that happen to starting in one thousand nine hundred twenty five in one thousand nine hundred five you had this case called Coral coral versus United States and in coral vs the United States you basically had this undercover officer that had attempted to buy alcohol from an individual this is in the probationary Russia tried to to buy alcohol but it never was completed the deal was never completed. Later on months later he sees the very same car he sees the very same individual he. Stops that car does a search of that car and ends up finding about sixty nine quarts of whiskey. That's a whole lot of whiskey lot of whiskey Manny's me drinking the rest of the year. So this guy ends up getting obviously arrested and he he appeals and he loses this appeal he loses the appeal based on exigent circumstances. OK now we're looking at this car and the government is now defining that that this doesn't work the way that that maybe homes do or something else. Now the car can move the car can go somewhere else by the time that you can go get the warrant then this individual can drive his car to another place hide the thing. And so all of a sudden you have these these exigent circumstances and the law says OK we're going to make exception. All of a sudden boom you have an exception to the Fourth Amendment Right now it's not as clear cut as you're not giving somebody an opportunity to flush the evidence that's right and it's a slippery slope. Yes it is there we start where do we end. So we go down to to maybe something like Cardwell versus Lewis and here or we establish that there's a lower expectation of privacy in a car right now. Now not only do you have do you have exigent circumstances now you have a lower expectation of privacy. So you know if you're at home and you were inside your house and kick the door down and went in there and find you found you doing something that was a crime you had a huge expectation of privacy and yes I did. Yeah right but now in the car you're on the road you can take off your or your where everybody can see you. You have a lower expectation of privacy and Cardwell versus Loise establishes that and then we go down to United States versus Ross and United States versus Ross we have the exception that in are that the whole vehicle and containers can be searched. Oh well yeah this is and this is this is a huge one and it's based upon an informant that sees a guy make a drug deal and then he does. Scribe the guy he destroyed his tribe's the car he describes the package it gets thrown into the trunk of a car and later the police officer stops them and does a search and what what the court system said was basically if you have probable cause to search a certain part of the car then you have probable cause to search the rest of the car. And so all of a sudden everything now becomes becomes open now it doesn't matter if it's in the trunk and it's locked it doesn't matter if it's in a container. Now all of this as long as it makes sense. So if you're looking for for a bazooka. And you have a little bag right you know it's not going to fit in that was in that bag. Yes but as long as it makes sense then that the court says you can search in that you can open it up you're good to go all at once Well there's me about writing it down. I want this to be true for the police officers Alex I want it to be true I want them to be able to do their job. What bothers me is that. When I when we started eroding where privacy begins for the criminals which I like that idea. I love that idea but at the same time we're all equal before the law and that means that it's also eroded for me and my cellphone right. And this is this is believe me this is for your benefit sure I know I know you sound like you sound like a math teachers that I had in high school this is for your own good is for your own good yes going to hurt you more than me add more than it's got hers and let's come back around to this idea that my cell phone can be searched without a warrant. OK Let's talk about that so you you suspect I'm texting and driving and you want to pull me over what does that look like right so. So now I've pulled you over and why have I pulled you over that's the big question what more than likely I was behind you. Yeah I'm driving behind you and let's say that you have a little bit of a darker window I can't see what you're doing. Yeah but I see that you're a radically driving that first jerk. To the left and I think to myself well man I've been driving for years and based on my knowledge training and experience people don't typically. Jerk a car to the left like that that's weird. That's mere suspicion right there right. I've got mirrors I've got nothing else I can't really know I might have been avoiding a squirrel you could have been yeah you could have been avoiding a pothole like I was trying to will I didn't see the other day this car jerked to the right I thought that was weird and all of a sudden I slammed into a pothole so you could have been doing that it's mere suspicion I've got nothing but I am continuing to follow you then I notice that there's more regularity to your jerking left and right in the car and it is just an awkward pattern of driving right I'm going to fall you fall you for you know probably a mile or two and if I have a camera I'm probably going to record that I'm going to start recording hit record I'm going to be recording your Radek driving at some point I'm going to say this doesn't make any sense. Now I've stepped into reasonable suspicion right and reasonable suspicion allows me to stop your car. So now I stop you. I'm detaining you. Now you can say I don't consent to this and I can say tough luck but you're being detained has that point where past that point. And so what would happen from there is I would approach your car and you would roll down your window which would you know get typical half an inch half an inch folks I would roll it down half an inch half an inch is all you know giving you that's not true. I'm making that up you'll be amazed what I can smell off a half an inch of a rolled out and let me assure the listener you will not be smelling anything out of my car I want to be very clear that I'm only opening it half an inch for a legitimate reason that's right. So OK let's say that the window rolls all the way down and I'm looking I'm thinking the first thing I'm thinking in my mind. Now it's changing a little bit because of phones but the first thing I'm thinking in my mind is this guy's drunk right. I wrote down the window and I smell no alcohol. I'm thinking what in the world but I'm going to say you know what I I can't discount the fact that you were driving erratically. So I'm going to say sir you know I noticed that you were driving a little bitty radically and I want to make sure that you are right are you tired No I'm not tired and so I'm like Can you step out and I'm watching you the whole time I want to see if you stumble I'm going to see what you're trying to do is. As walking is concerned how you're talking then I'm probably going to say listen I'm going to put you through a few tests I don't want you to drive out there and hurt somebody so let me put you through a few quick test as soon as you pass these tests then I'll let you go on walking the line touching my nose going to walk the line you going to touch your nose you're going to do. I mean I've heard wonderful you know yes I just want to be absolutely Taylor I've heard that that's what happened. So let's say we get through all those and your past. Yes I'm sober. What in the world. There's got to be something else then before we would probably lead to let you ride. You know now we're thinking there is something else and that something else is probably you messing with your phone. So one of the things that I saw as I came to your car is that your phone was on it was open. It's an i Phone I have an i Phone It's right on the texting messages and I've got the sneaky suspicion that dude you were texting right. And so now I put you through the it through the field sobriety test you pass the field sobriety tests what's left your top of my cell phone you're texting and in Vermont twenty four percent of the accidents came from phone use fifty individuals died. So what am I supposed to do now do I just say hey but have a good day you weren't drunk have a good one you know keep on texting and run somebody over and kill them and their children here's yours where the problem emerges and I know we're coming up against a break here again fairly soon Alex but the problem emerges that all right you know maybe you need to see whether or not I was texting. But what if my letters to my wife are in there or or for that matter anything else that I don't think is your business. Once you're in that phone everything my whole life is in there my credit cards are in there everything my whole life is in there. How much of that you'd be able to look at under the Fourth Amendment. Right and that's the big question and law and who was suggesting this law. What he says is essentially what we're asking for is a show me your text log we're not X. asking to see the whole. Thing We just want to see your text. Log and then he goes as far as to say it says this. Personally if I'm in a car and I've been text messaging I should expect narrow privacy right. And that's the issue and I do understand that I absolutely understand that what bothers me is that at the moment we are what if the day comes and if I read Revelation thirteen correctly we are up against a break but if I read Revelation thirteen correctly the day is coming where my faith is going to be a crime and let's say I was texting my pastor I guess the argument would be you shouldn't be doing that you should have been texting your pastor. But I'm texting my pastor about our secret church meeting bang there it is now I realize it's a horrible argument Alex I absolutely do because I should have been texting should not be how the Christian is communicating with his pastor. But there is coming a moment if we erode that right. I've got nothing to worry about today but what about the day when maybe I do and there's enough fix. There's enough that went on of the twentieth century to commit it can happen. Happen all over the world we are up against a break up with Alex Rodriguez we're going to come and bring it full circle in just a moment after this message the Fourth Amendment your right to privacy and Bible prophecy and God's law will be right back after this. Are you searching for answers to life's toughest questions like Where is God when we suffer. Can I find real happiness or is there any hope for our chaotic world. The Discovery will help you find the answers you're looking for Visit us at Bible studies dot com or give us a call at eight eight eight four five six seven nine three three four you're free discover Bible guides study online on our secure website or have the free guides mailed right to your home. There is never a cost or obligation to discover guides are our free gift to you find answers and guide. 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We are back from the break my name is Sean booster the host of voice of prophecies disclosure I'm with Alex Rodriguez and Alex we are in the homestretch in today's program we were talking about pulling cars over and searching cell phones and all of those kinds of things and the Fourth Amendment and so on and I want you now to take me over home plate in the minutes that we have left today because there's a lot to talk about and I want you to sort of wrap up what you were discussing and then take me into the Bible before we're done this conversation really is not about cell phones Sean it ultimately comes back to the Fourth Amendment the erosion of our of our our rights and how much we're willing to release to to society in order for for us to be to be safe right and pointing out that it's not an easy decision. I'm very interested in helping police do their job but at the same time I want to keep my eye on the ball and watch that we don't erode liberty to a point where basic liberty disappears. Let's get into the Bible in just a moment but before we we do that I want to just lay one more one more little foundation on on what's going on what's been happening in the law and what happened from the beginning in the framing of the Constitution. We have this letter of the law concept or words written in there the Fourth Amendment we've gone through that a couple of times already on this program. But what we haven't discussed is the fact that because it's so short and even if it was longer there is this understanding of interpretive law if you will we call it precedent that right. That we deal with in in the legal system or another way to call it is is case law. What is the power of case law when it comes to deciding a case and what's going to happen in the future. Right now and it's huge it's huge in fact I was just reading an article by Gary Lawson titled The cost constitutional case against precedent and here's what he says legal analysis by lawyers courts and academics typically begins and ends with precedent. He continues court opinions including Supreme Court opinions on constitutional matters frequently consist entirely of discussions of past decisions without so much as a reference to the Constitution itself right. And so in a way case law and precedent has become the guiding influence of what it is that we decide and don't decide and so it sort of moved in the first place almost ahead of the Constitution in the way that we operate civil society. Absolutely and this is his argument and several other arguments are the people that are arguing about this fact that although you have the written text. It almost means nothing after a while right and I'm running into this and law enforcement you have what is written but then you have how it's been interpreted in what's been interpreted seems to have more weight in the decisions. There would almost be a case for what would amount to zero based budgeting in every case go back to the original law before you examine you know that ought to be primary. That's right and his argument is let's not throw away the case law it's important but let's put it in its proper place. One more statement that he made is the authority of priests of precedent as a postulate of our legal system is uncontroversial it is warm and fuzzy fuzzy and in some of its most familiar applications. It is unconstitutional right. It would says and interesting argument and you have to read the rest of the two hundred thirty years later we've wandered so far from the original text and what happened last year so much closer. That's right. And here's here's the thing I think ultimately. When the framers framed the con. I know we live in a society now that is saying that we're not a Christian nation right. But when the framers framed the Constitution. There was a driving influence of the Word of God no question but I did a program on that a while ago Alex in that's available on the Web site to the fact is the Protestant Reformation the thoughts that came out of that led to the drafting of the Constitution at least a lot of the principles showed up there. So when you think about precedent when you think about decisions that are made in the courtroom the underlying pillar of the laws that were put in place was the moral law of God So now you although you have this this way around it although you have exigent circumstances of your Although you have exceptions although you have this constant this this instant of unreasonable searches that it's even written right there in the fourth amendment. Although you have these things. It still has under it pinning it. The Bible right. But now as we take that Bible away and it's no longer the underpinning of the decisions that we're making in the in the courtrooms. What then establishes the foundation of what we decide. So back then although the system was a little bit broken from the perspective of there was a way around it. I mean if you think about the Constitution itself the amendments. You can change an amendment. Yes you can now it's tough it's tough it's probably one of the hardest things to do but as long as you get two thirds of the legislature to agree to this thing right and then you turn around and you get three fourths of the states to agree this thing. All of a sudden you change the legislature or do you change the change the amendment. I want to be clear we're not talking about establishing a theocracy that's not what we're talking about but the principles that built America were clearly out of the Judeo Christian tradition and clearly built on the ideas of human government that the drafters found and others found in documents like the bible in particular there's no question it's founded on Christian ideals and Christian. Morality right. And that's the that's the key. So the Bible and Christian morality gave it its checks and balances. Yes it did and you have found that you found that in the Old Testament they were checks and balances on every human form of government correct. Now we're looking at where we're at and we have to act as the question what is giving our decisions in the courtroom the checks and balances. What is it that's that's now checking this thing. And unfortunately really it's it's society it's word society has gone right. So what is the societal norm now what is accepted in society and that drives our case law in our case law drives what we decide that law means. And so therefore although the Fourth Amendment says that you need a search warrant basically now we've opened up Pandora's box so that I could see there being a day where your cell phone walk up to your car and saber your cell phone and because of that's the way the society has done it all of a sudden it's the way we do things now on it's not right but it's the syllabary slope that we're going on and to be to be clear again for everybody who's listening. Look if you've committed a crime my belief is you deserve to get caught. I'm looking forward to the day where thought crimes because other societies have gone that far the Soviet Union went there other regimes went there and thought crimes can never be a crime it's written into the Constitution but let's say that day comes and we build everything on case law like you said. And we've eroded liberty now we have a problem. That's right that's right. So the constitution and then in constitutional law or any law really the way that we run the legal system. You know it could can't be changed. It's interpreted by man. It's supported now by societal norms. But let's look at Scripture. Let's look at God's law. How is is God's law. How does that work in comparison to the way that we do law here here in America and throughout the world. One thing that stands out to me is that it's a revokable it's immutable. Doesn't change it doesn't change so here you have a law that it doesn't matter if two thirds of us decide hey you know I don't like that or you know three fourths of the states decide if we want something different you have a law that stands the test of time it's going nowhere. Matthew chapter Chapter five or says that eight for say team says for assuredly I say to you till heaven and earth pass away one jot or one tittle by no means will pass from the law till all is fulfilled them in the things not going anywhere no and it makes sense because it really is a picture of who God is when God is saying do not steal he's saying I'm honest and I'd like you to be honest we saying Do not kill I value life so I want you to it's a picture of who God is and because he's the same yesterday today and forever that Lord never change that's right we were serving the unchanging God and because God isn't changing his laws on changing we'll talk a little bit about the character of God in just a moment but absolutely correct and of course you know you being being in the Bible for many years you course you know what's in Revelation chapter twenty two verses eighteen in one thousand at the end what are we what are we told about the book itself can't be changed. Do not add do not subtract it and in it's not just a command of hey don't do this it actually attaches teeth to this thing. So if you do change it if you decide off the off the top of your head you know I don't like this thing I'm going to change it then God says listen I'm going to judge that I'm going to I'm going to judge you based on that this law. I wrote it's unchangeable it's immutable. I'm not going to change it you're not going to change it whether you like it or not it's the way it is right right. The other difference that we see here looking at God's law is that God amplifies the law and scripturally interprets it. So he's the judge at the same time. Yeah yes so is the legislator and the judge it's the which is a beautiful picture you know if you think about salvation itself where he Jesus is our lawyer. Jesus is the judge I mean how can you lose. How can you lose you know the Christian has nothing to fear go to go to the. The I would love to walk into a courtroom like that yeah you know if I was the one that was beyond just got your back accused but got amplifies and God Scripturally interprets It's the late. Herbert Douglas in one of his books he wrote this The statement here that really really calls out to me he says when Adam and Eve sinned the law was not changed but every medial system was established to bring humanity back to obedience after he wrote the Ten Commandments and stone God commanded Moses to write additional judgments and laws outlining detailed instructions for these former slaves who had shown themselves to be so easily led astray to catch this these directions were the principles of the Ten Commandments amplified and given in a specific manner so no one need air. So God Himself amplifies and gives us exactly what we need to know about how to interpret this law. So he doesn't just give the law he says Here's the law and here's how you live it. Here's the law. Here's how how you live it. I'm not going to give it to man decide exactly what I meant with this. I'm just I'm just going to spell it out to you in N.Y.C. all these all these things that he gives to Moses and of course again one little bit here a little bit there Isaiah twenty eight ten says for precept upon precept precept upon precept line on line right. So you know how do we study the Bible how do we come to to a conclusion about what is meant in Scripture. Well I've often looked at that passage line upon line precept upon precept and I've told people essentially you have to read the whole thing you can't take bits of it the whole Bible matters and this is where God expounds in the fullest sense what he meant. That's right. How do I interpret what's my hermeneutical principle hermeneutics is how you interpret the scripture. How do I interpret the scripture How do I decide to do that is it safe Sean for me to say you know what I'm going to take scripture and I'm going to give it to let's say the legal system I'm going to give it to to the court room to tell me exactly what it meant is that safe. You know not in today's society that's not what we're sinful human beings nothing is is it can interpret Scripture except. Scripture right. This is the only thing that is that has not fallen. That is not sinful this is what what God has given us to know exactly what to do in the future that so we call this in theological circles divine revelation. So God has given us divine revelation in Scripture happens to be the only divine revelation we have and therefore we use it too and Procrit itself. We don't really have that kind of system in the legal system No but what is interesting to me and it's just by way of comparison is we came out of the Reformation yet Martin Luther saying you know what clergy aren't my rule the document is he went to the Bible and that's really were Protestant principle started to show up in the drafting of the American Constitution is that a king is not our authority this document will be but that's still a human document. That's right and if you go back to two individuals like like the one I quoted a minute ago looking at the constitution he's saying he's saying case law can not dictate what we decide we have a document we need to go back to right. And in the same way in Scripture we have a document we need to go back to IN THE in the last difference here in just the last few seconds we have is that instead of being says supported by social norms this this law of God is supported by God's character. Yes this is God's character who he is and based upon who he is it doesn't change it will never lead us astray and that's a big difference between that and the regular law here in society. Alex Rodriguez. I have must say that if I were to be pulled over by a cop again I would hope it would be you because you do respect my freedom. I want to thank you for joining us on the show we're out of time to get the whole program and some of the show notes of voice of prophecy dot com But we are out of time for this week's program. You are listening to disclosure of one of the new programs from the good people of the voice of prophecy. My name is Sean boon.


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