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The Market Gardening Model: Size/Location/Infrastructure/Tools

John Dysinger

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John Dysinger

Bountiful Blessings Farm

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  • January 25, 2017
    9:30 AM
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OK We're going to get going here. So we're going to talk about the market gardening model and what I want to say off this. At the start is that I'm not saying this is the only model out there you know there are other people who are doing it on much larger scales with tractors and everything and doing it very successfully. So you know if that's. If you're more inclined to that go for in fact I'll just put in a little plug. There is there is a track. Tomorrow and Friday. I forget what the name of the track is but the Johnson family Brad and Judy Johnson from California. They I think they'll be some overlap with this but you know because it's different people in a different location. I would encourage you all. If you're serious about market gardening to go to their presentations. But they're doing it on a much bigger scale. You know California's scale. I mean they're not like a big California scale but compared to most of the rest of us it's big they do vegetables they do some. They do walnuts tree fruits and more diversified than we are so anyway my point is I'm not trying to say everybody needs to follow this but I love the market gardening model for a number of reasons. Well I think all explain them pretty much as we go through here. So what is a market garden. In these you know there's no dictionary definitions. So this is kind of what people have come to less than three eight acres of cultivated land and I would say most of them are an acre and a half or less. So a very intensive very. Small. Characterized by intensive beds and multiple crops per bed per year. You know this is really. This is not just a growing crop in the summertime this is multiple crops. Take advantage of season extension and often goes year round. You know that's kind of the. If you want to call it the cutting edge of small farming is season extension using who pals is and other ways to. And again Eliot Coleman pioneered this he has a book called The winter harvest handbook. It's really about all there is out there on winter growing. But he's in Maine growing in unheated greenhouses around. So his point is if I can do it you can do it. And that's that's kind of an exciting new you know and we were growing your round the course were in Tennessee. Elliot Coleman Yes. Yeah. And again we have the resource back there. It's in my hand. Usually very diverse. You know bigger farms tend to be more focused on fewer crops because you have to buy specialized equipment for you know planting corn and harvesting corn and all of this but market gardens are generally much more diverse. OK Here we go. So these are some advantages that I see. Nick my son in law. Recently got a drones. So he's getting all these cool. That's our farm from. A few hundred feet up or part of our farm less land needed. You know I'm sure many of you are familiar with the chapter in ministry of healing on helping What is homeless and unemployed something like that. You know she talks about how we need to be bringing people out of the city and putting them on the land and teaching them how to farm. But you know people say well I can't afford a farm. Well but can you afford to acres three acres. You know for a house and a little bit of other and I mean most people could afford a few acres of land. So to me one of the biggest things about the market gardening model is it can be easily replicated. And that's what to me is exciting. I want to you know that's why I'm excited about this because if we can get some of you enthused about you know I can do this and acre and a half less water needed. You know you can get by with much smaller water source obviously if you're not irrigating acres and acres. Less equipment needed. You know you don't need a tractor for an acre and a half now. I would say if you're going much above an acre and a half a tractor is a really nice thing to have. But again BEN HARTMAN is incorporating and others are beginning to corporate tractors into this intensive market gardening model and to me that's really exciting. Less stress. You know. Our farms or our gardens should be a place you love to be. And I know all of you who've done. This have had the experience of the garden getting out of control. And what happens when it gets out of control. You don't want to be out there right because it's depressing. And so it's this vicious cycle and you know it goes to pot and then it's like OK well next year we're going to do better. I mean that's kind of the classic August comes and you know the gardens taken over by we. And it's like OK well let's mow it down and we'll try again next year but the point is by doing less you can do better at it. And hopefully be much less stressed. So I talked about this more people can. Can make a living off the land you know there should be thousands. Were now there are a few. You know my vision is to see hundreds of thousands of in this family is doing this I think could be an incredible incredible witness. OK So these are some keys to success as I see it with the market gardening one is the intensive production we mentioned that. Again you know you're talking about tight spacing. We're doing we do a lot of carrots for winter growing. Twelve rows to a thirty inch wide bed. That's pretty intensive spacing. So you're just tightening everything up course that means you have to have some good fertility going there as you're not going to support that kind of growth. But the intensive spacing also helps with weeds. You know crowds. The weeds. I can't even read this now. Beds rather than rose again because you know rows were designed. Back. First I guess for the horses and then tractors you know they're designed for mechanical cultivation. But when you're doing mostly hand cultivation and of course you can use like wheel hose and stuff but you're able to tighten everything up and get a lot more on less area. High value crops we're going to talk a little bit more about that but. You know most market gardens do not grow sweet corn. That's kind of a classic example because sweet corn even good yields you know you'd be doing good to make ten thousand in a year and you know you're trying to grow crops which are you know hundred thousand or more per acre. Now I will say we do grow some sweet corn because we've got a C.S.A. and we want to keep our C.S.A. customers happy. We'll talk about that later but you don't do it for the money. I mean it's great it's easy to sell right everybody loves good sweet corn but you know we're selling it. We'll sell it for a dollar an ear for early sweet corn. But still that's to justify the land use. OK highly fertile soil and you know again if you're growing this intensively. You've got to really stay on top of your soil fertility so you're not at one of the soil fertility sessions since you're here. Here. So make sure you listen to those on audio. Because it's really important. Tested Amanda's recommended grow cover crops. Now I will say that most of these market gardens are growing intensively enough that they don't have time to fool with covered crops. So they are just bypassing the cover crops and using more compost and stuff which can get you into trouble if you're not careful we kind of went down that road. You know. We compost and so much that we start getting our soil out of balance. But the point is you you do need some organic matter. So Conor Crick more. I'm trying to decide whether to talk about some of these things now or save them for later but he he has kind of taken a two pronged approach to soil fertility he does extensive testing. Of his beds and a man's to the recommendations of the soil testing. But then he also looks at what he calls the filth. Or you know the. The look and feel of the soil and HILL I'm in. With either compost or he uses a lot of people us just to make it have the right. Look and Feel so he kind of does both and I kind of like that approach. OK. Make compost now. Making compost can be a big job and a lot of these farms are buying it in. But there are some. BEN HARTMAN makes compost on a very large scale and uses copiously on his farm. Sees an extension we talked about that you know the simplest season extension is floating row covers if you don't know about floating row covers you know that's kind of. You need to know about floating row covers. It's amazing what just a simple row covers can do and then if you start doubling them up or tripling them up. You can you can take crops way out of season. Now and when I say that I'm not talking about growing tomatoes year round. You know. Take my word for it. Don't go down that road. You know it's great to try to extend the season start your tomatoes earlier you know we plan our tomatoes in our hoop else the middle of March and we finally pulled them out the middle of November just because we needed the space but they were just going gangbusters. I mean we had they had so many tomatoes on them. We needed to plant winter stuff there. So anyway you can do a lot with extending the season but who pals is to modify the climate not to turn it in to the Bahamas in there you know. Transplants. Again we don't have time to talk about a lot of these things but the best way to maximize your space on your farm is using transplants. And most all these farms. You know I mean we transplant beats. We transplant spinach. You know crops that classically aren't transplanted I'm trying to think of some other ones. You know we transplanted turnips before turnips. So the point is we transplant I mean there's so many advantages but you know you can have your lettuce months old in transplants. That is soon as you clear out of bed you plant that and you just added a month to your crop. Does that make sense. So it's a very efficient way to use your space. The only things. We don't transplant are. Salad mix you know baby stuff. Carrots and we do some green beans. So there's just a handful of crops that we still direct. But again transplanting is much more efficient. But works half the time at least. So again as I mentioned earlier the key is getting efficient. You know anybody who works at a manual trade. You know we've got friends who are. You know wood floor layers or whatever they make their money by speed right. And it's no different in market gardening and I'm not a good one. The doc about this because I'm not fast and I realize that I'm I'm too much of that you know if I'm trained in any way but I have a son who's very fast and. So he's good compliment to me but the. Really that's that's how you're going to make money market farming is getting your systems down and that's why you know we took this tour to try to learn from these guys how to be more efficient. Specialized tools you know and again. So you know concrete more he puts out three thousand dollars to get set up with paper pots. But you know then he's he's just you know almost running down the rows transplanting So you know we're talking about investing in efficiency. Now this is a big one functional layout standardization of space and materials. My wife mentioned that this last year you know we were. We had our intensive bed areas where we had the movable hoop houses. But then we also had because we already had a tractor we've got enough land we need a tractor Anyway we were doing larger fields half acre fields. And doing it more on a tractor layout five foot centers and so on but. You know it takes a lot of road covered to cover a half acre. And you know it's a lot of work. The road covers big enough that takes three or four people to pull it out of the field and there's just a lot of things that become very inefficient. So this last year we were influenced. Well I give credit to my wife because she went to a J.M. seminar with us. And she said well why are we doing smaller plots and you know I told her all the reasons why we weren't in. But it got me thinking in so. This last year we made all our field plots forty by one hundred feet and I really like that size for many reasons. It's basically a tenth of an acre. So it makes figuring very simple your math. You know you can do it all in your head. It's a tenth of an acre or four thousand square feet. So again it's easy to multiply up if you have recommendations for a thousand square feet or if you have a correct and nations it's easy to divide by ten. So just very efficient for mental math as you're out there beds one hundred feet long. Which I like because. J.M. has standardized one hundred foot major and you know he does everything by by. You know his yields and everything are based on one hundred foot bed. So you can take his book and you know he'll tell you this is the average yield for this crop on one hundred foot bed. And you know just again it just simplifies the math and everything and one hundred feet long is you know even so there's ten beds in a forty by a hundred foot section. So again ten. You know you can easily do math. You know if I've got twenty pounds of potatoes per bed and you know I mean two hundred pounds to plant my forty by hundreds of thing. So again that standardizing And so then now we can all we can just buy one size of row cover. You know we have one size of sprinkler line and everything's interchangeable. And that may sound like a big deal but it's huge. When you're. Sorting through row covers OK well which is the one for this. And you know they're piled up in the barn and. So just to have one size of everything is hugely more efficient. So we're really excited and of course the other thing is just mental efficiency. If you go out there and tell then Apprentice. You know can you just can you hold this half acre. It's like. The whole thing. You know half acre course isn't that big comparatively but. When you're hauling it. It can seem big but a forty by a hundred foot section. Is doable. You know it's OK yeah I can do that. Take me to you know depending on how bad it needs it. Work smarter not harder. Direct Sales this is a key you know you're trying to get the most sense out of every dollar and you know you hear statistics about farmers you know the standard row crop farmers are just earning pennies on the dollar compared of Lee. You can't afford that you've got to get a dollar out of every dollar ideally. So you've got to cut out the middleman. Farmers markets are a great place to start. And we'll be talking about these things more so I'm not going to mention anything C.S.A.. We love the C.S.A. high end restaurants are an option. OK planning. Is important. We'll talk more about that later. Clicker. Cooking. You know just thinking about how much do I really need to make. And working back from there and we're going to do a little bit of that later on. Knowing how much you need to plant you know most people and I was kind of there so I don't look down on anybody but most market gardeners it's like OK well let's just plant a bunch of lettuce and see if we can sell it you know that's not the best way to go about things. You know when it needs to be planted. Keep forgetting I can look down here have a six. But the problem is I can't read it down there. Succession of plantings to keep a continuous harvest. Again you know this is kind of. The difference between a home gardener and a market gardener. You know home gardener puts the garden in a nice day in the spring. You know plants everything. And then you know stuff peters out over the course of the summer and well that's the end of the garden till next year but you know market gardeners you're planting. Pretty much all the time. You know. You're planting squash we plant squash every month you know. Lettuce. You know every we do lettuce pretty much every week you know. So. A lot of succession planting. I love this quote always tend the smallest amount of land possible but tend it exceptionally well. And again I think Conor Crick more has kind of taken that to a new height. You need at least one full time worker per half acre. At least I would say for an intensive market garden. You know a lot of these market gardeners it's more like one full time person per quarter acre. But again you're looking at income potential of one hundred thousand or more per acre you know let me just mention our farm keep shrinking we keep shrinking it at one time with my brother's family we were doing almost seventy years now we're down to two and a half and we'd love to shrink it some more. You know my wife talked about the strawberries. You know at one time we were we planted one year we planted twenty four thousand strawberry plants were downed this this year we're down to four thousand that's the fewest we've ever planted. But the amazing thing is. We've always made right around the same amount of money. Whether we had twenty four thousand plant last year we had five thousand. We made as much with the five thousand as we did with the twenty four thousand course that's a long story but but the point is with less you're able to do a better job with it. You know I have high hopes for our strawberries this year because we really amended them well we planted on time. If anything they're too big but we'll see. OK location. Now this is where we for a time see ten thirty is when it ends. OK so we're good. I think. But you know you don't want to spend your time on the road. Ideally so. Ideally I think within an hour's drive of a major metropolitan area. The reality is most small towns in America aren't I don't know what the word I should use progressive in the right word to support a local organic farmer you know they're used to buying stuff really cheap. But you're looking for and. You know we make no apologies about that. We tell people you know we couldn't afford to buy our own stuff. You know that's why we grow it. We like kings and queens have you heard of that before. So if you can't afford our stuff. We'll teach you how to grow it yourself. Fair enough. But if you don't want to take time to grow it yourself then we're going to charge you through the no was hopefully not quite that bad but Conor Crick Morry this is great. He said you want. I don't want to misquote him but he was talking about pricing. He said you you want them to be complaining as they take their wallet out of their pocket. So that's his philosophy you want it to hurt. You price high enough that it hurts but not quite so much that they don't buy it. It's like man this is really pricey but it looks so good. You know. So that's kind of where he's at. And I'm not suggesting that's necessarily where you want to be but don't be afraid to charge. Really good prices for your stuff because your stuff should be much better than anything else. There you know and we tell people you know people we constantly get people saying how come your strawberries are so much better than anybody else's. We say well we pray over them. Other than that we're not sure what to tell you. But everybody knows our strawberries are the best that the market even though the other growers are using the same variety. Why is that God's blessing. You know. And we tried to give the glory to the Lord because that's where it belongs and. It's a witness. Anyway so. Close. Well you don't want to be too close to the city. You're right but. Where the Lord has given us an ideal location we're basically an hour from downtown Nashville and so we have a wonderful market. If you. You know we don't all have the luxury of choosing where we're at. Notice I said if growing perishables there's a young man here. I don't see him here but Jared Westbrook from New Mexico. He's focused on garlic. Because they live three hours from the nearest metropolitan area and garlic is pretty nonperishable So you know you can get creative. But if you're going to market every week. You don't want to be driving three hours to market at least I don't know there are a lot of farmers up in the New England area that drive three or four hours to New York for market good water source. Strangely unimportant. I can't over him. You know we live in a world that is waxing old and I would never get in the market gardening if I didn't have a good way to irrigate. Now I don't know is that lack of trust. I don't know. Now I would say this if if you feel the Lord calling you into this and he's calling you without giving you the resources to set up a good irrigation system. You know I would say follow the Lord. And trust him. But you know he does give us a head to use and we want to use it wisely. Good sun exposure you know some of these hopefully are obvious but you do want to check the sun year round. You don't want to especially if you're going to grow your ground you don't want to be in a shady place good soil is ideal but again the beauty of a market garden scale is you can make good soil. You know Eliot Coleman Connor Crick more these guys started out with horrible soil and they've made goods. Which you can afford to do on a small scale but you can't afford to do it on acres. You know a large acreage fairly level is ideal. You have to be careful about erosion. You know of course there's ways to deal with this all over the world terrorists hillsides and stuff so you know with work. Anything can be done but. The more of these you start out with the easier it's going to be to get into it. We highly recommend. Thirty inch wide beds. That's kind of become a standard and there's a lot of tools and stuff that are designed for the thirty inch wide system. It's easy to straddle you can straddle it over and transplant or harvest or you can you know if you're squatting you can reach across it. So it's really just a good fit for most people and I talked about one hundred foot long again your layout may not work with one hundred foot there's nothing magical about one hundred feet. But it is a nice if if you can do it. I think it's a nice. But do it. Fifty feet. You know and then you just divide by two pathways. There is there is some variance in pathways that uses twelve inch wide pathways. But Elliott's a very small man. J.M. uses eighteen inch wide pathways Connor cricket more I think had settled on fifteen inch wide. So there's there's a little variation there. I would say it's depends largely on how much land you have you know how most a lot of people are doing twelve inch pathways in hoop houses because that's your most valuable space but in the fields it varies. The point is. Scuse me. The point is you don't want to spend your time cultivating pathways. So you don't want any more pathway than you absolutely need Curtis Stone has like eight inch wide pathways. You know he has to put his feet. You know one in front of the other you know it's just super narrow but again he's doing super intensive. Kind of talked about. Some of this you know we really like our forty by one hundred foot and it's interesting that J.M. on this new farm he's working on has standing on the forty by hundreds of. These like he said he's got fifty of those plots. High value crops. Now this is something that Curtis Stone has introduced which is kind of a neat way to measure the value of a crop he's got this C.V.R. crop value rating and it's based on five things short days to maturity. Sixty days or less. You know this is this is just good common sense you know we were trying to do this before we read about CURTIS But you know if you've got to potato varieties. You know of course anybody who's grown but Taito as you have early potatoes in mid season and late. Right. They usually divided into those three and you know late potatoes can be one hundred twenty days or more. Why would you grow one hundred twenty day potato if you can grow eighty day but you know that's just taking up more space in your garden for a longer period of time which means there's more time for past and diseases to to you know it just makes sense to look for shorter days to maturity. So he shoots for sixty or less. Or let me say this each of these gets one point. So if it's sixty days or less to maturity. He gives it a point. High yield per linear foot. And this is a third. Wide bed but at least half a pound and this is mainly talking about greens. But you know a half a pound per foot linear foot so that's two and a half feet wide in the foot long. So if it yields that much. It's another point. High price per pound minimum four dollars a pound. So again you know these are high value crops. This is all in his book The urban farmer lawn harvest period four months or more. Now there's two ways that this can be you know you can have a crop like tomatoes which can go for four months or more. Or you can have a crop like radishes which has a season that four months or more does that make sense. So it can either be one crop for four months or more or multiple crops that can be replanted over and over again. And then popularity in high demand low market saturation. You know the highest value crops like micro greens. You know if if the market saturated you're wasting your time growing them. So you've got to try to find those niches where it's high value but the market's not saturated. So those are his five points and so if you have a C.V.R. of five over five then that's a crop. That meets all these criteria. So here is a few examples a ridiculous five over five. Let's just look at the lettuce five over five. Spin it. Five over five turnips the. Those are you know we're talking about salad turnips Gore made kind of turnips baby kale five over five. Then you have some that Mike or Greens radish is kale carrots beat. Are all for over five so you know one of them. You know like carrots. It's hard to get care with less than sixty days maturity. They're going to tend to be a little longer than that wouldn't meet that one criteria but you get a good price on carrots. And so on. So does that make sense to you. So according to Kurdish stone these are. And he only grows like well what do we have here this is twelve. He has a few more things listed like herbs herbs are a big seller. Conor Crick Moore does a lot of herbs and some flowers as well. But selling to restaurants and stuff fresh herbs are big so any way he does. I guess he does probably fifteen different crops. But he's focusing on these super high value crops. OK. Now what do you need for a market garden. It's really helpful to have a heated greenhouse for seeds starting to get you a good jump. You know for us. Spring is by far the biggest season of the year you know everybody's just tired a winner and they want fresh and if you can be the first to market with things you've. A wide open market. So we really try to start thing you know as soon as we get back from this conference will do our first big seeding first of February. With stuff that will go in who palaces. You know bras and CA's. Let us all those things. It's too early for us to be planting outside the first of March. But we can plan it all in who houses and then we'll do another big seeding the first of March and plant that out the first of April. That's Tennessee six. I don't know. You know zones are changing. Six B seven. Somewhere right in there. So we have a thirty by sixty heated who pass. Greenhouse double plastic if you're going to heat it you want double plastic that's probably a little bigger than you need a part of it. We have a cement pad where we do our soil blocking and everything. It's a very nice. I mean we like it but you wouldn't have to go quite that big if you're just doing the hand washing area is really nice you know cement slab with a roof. Three base sink or feed truck you know just an area. If you're going year round. It's nice to have it enclosed so it can be heated to some degree. But many people start out with just a simple roof over. You know and you may not even be able to start with a concrete slab but some gravel or something you don't want to be working in them. But that's nice. I mean you need a place to wash your stuff. People don't want to buy dirty stuff we've learned that the reason we've learned that is because some of our competition has a philosophy that. They just pull it out of the ground and put it in the C.S.A. and you know really. There are those people who is all. WOW THIS IS SO COOL. It's still got dirt on it you know. But that's the minority. Most people really appreciate nicely washed walk in cooler. You know if you're growing. This is one advantage of winter growing You don't need this. So much. But if you're growing in the summer. It really is helpful to have a cooler because then you don't have to harvest everything the same day that you're taking it to market and there are ways to do coolers have you heard of the cool. It's a little gizmo a few hundred dollars that will turn an air conditioner window air conditioner into a cooler that will keep things down in the thirty's. It's called Cool bought my son sells it on his website. C O L. Dash I think be O.T. hoop else or two or three. I tell people you know once you start growing in hoop houses you're going to be spoiled because things just grow so much better in them. It's a way to weatherize your farm. You know without a hoop house. What do you do when it's raining. You know sit inside just pacing back and forth because you know you need to be else but as soon as you start having who pals is when the rains come. Well this is who pals. We plant we amend whatever. So it's really. I don't I never heard of anybody who says they have too many who houses. Again talking about water. You know that I can't overemphasize that not only do you need water for irrigating but also for washing your produce where super blessed in that area. We've got gravity flow water. Deer fencing. You know deer can do a lot of damage in one. And we have to think if we talk about anywhere else but I think I'll mention it here. We what's called ten X. sent to flex its black mash. Deer fencing seven and a half feet tall. We do it very simply. And I don't know why I haven't convinced everybody of this because to me it's just the best way to go. We use eight foot T. posts every twenty five feet. I mean you don't need very many. I need twelve T. posts for a forty by one hundred foot area. And I just buy those yellow plastic fence insulators that clip on you know for an electric fence put one on the top of each tipo sed and literally just hang the fencing from the. Fencing seven and a half feet tall your T. poles when you pounded in is going to be seven feet tall. So it's going to come down and go out a little bit on the bottom. But we have never in eighteen years have never had deer penetrate that. They have a hard times. Seeing it. You know some places call it invisible deer fence because you get fifty feet away and you can't really even see it. But somehow it kind of. I don't know it just does a very effective job for us now. Any time we've left it open. Or you know sometimes will lift it up in a hook it over the top of for weeding under her something. If you forget to put it down. They will get in so that tells you they're round I mean they're out there every night but just that simple barrier has been one hundred percent effective for us. And so rather than a permanent fence around your whole farm which can be very expensive and then it's also high maintenance. We only fence the crops that we know the deer really like. You know in the summer sweet potatoes green beans. They love beets and Swiss chard. Spin and course you know the same families Swiss chard and spinach and beats are all in the same family. What else. Strawberries. They love strawberry plants. That's the main things I can think of that we fence. And everything else you know they may never go on it a little bit. We've never had problems with them getting into our bras because in a big way or tomatoes or any of those kind of thing question. No No And that's the beauty of it. You know we put the strawberries in erect the fence you know for a forty by one hundred foot plot. You know it could probably do it in thirty minutes just roll it out hook it up and you're good to go. And you can buy just lifting it and then at the end of the strawberry season you take it down. Roll it up and. So it's it's worked wonderful for us. You know I can't tell you how it's going to work for you but it's called ten X. cent of flex. It's sold in a number of places there's I think tear Busters website. But look around. I actually we just bought some new stuff this year and I actually found the best deal was from Home Depot. They didn't have it in stock but they ordered it in. As far as pricing. It comes in at three hundred thirty five roll. And I think it was two hundred eighty dollars for three hundred so less than a dollar a foot which for fencing is cheap. And. And the beauty is it will last many many years. You know where I think we still have some original stuff which is close to eighteen years old. OK I think this is I guess. Specialized equipment broad fork There's a picture of a broad fork. B.C.'s with attachments. J.M. really. Jay I mean V.C.S. to be paying because he has. He has a sold a lot of B.C.'s is from his book. And speaking of that Richard Daley should be here today. He's a B.C.S. dealer so he will have equipment here you can look at again I don't. About a small tractor. If you need a tractor you know if you have more than ten acres are even more than five acres you're probably going to need a tractor so set up your system you know don't work harder than you have to. Wheel hose are wonderful. I've got some handouts on some of these things that I'll try to figure out what the problem is with downloading those and I just made print outs for you all persuasions seeders the Greens Harvester. OK this is my last. How much is it going to cost you. Well you know that that's kind of a loaded question. Just depends on how quickly you want to get up and going. You know the worst thing you can do is have a lot of money without a lot of knowledge because then you end up wasting a lot of money. It's better to only add equipment and stuff as you know that you really need it. Eliot Coleman in ninety five in the new organic grower estimating around fifteen thousand. J.M.. Says more like forty thousand. So I would say somewhere between there is probably. Realistic Obviously if you have the knowledge. The more money you can invest in it. The quicker you can get up and going. But again don't be investing money without the knowledge to get a return on it quickly. And then I say whatever God gives you again you know I believe this needs to be a calling not just wow. This looks like a good way to earn a living. I'll tell you it's a hard way to learn it earn a living. It's hard work. Don't ever think that. You know you see the pictures and the pictures all look idyllic. Right. But the pictures don't show the sweat. Soaking through to your skin. You know in the summer and they don't show you out there in the winter. You know your hands are just hurting because you're but hey that's all character building right. And that's what we're about here. So I guess we're actually out of time. We'll take a couple questions. OK good point and I don't know what the current state of that is but the N R C S. That's the National Resource Conservation Service has for years been giving money to small farmers for hoop houses we go to hoop house through that. So definitely check into it and there's money available for other things as well. So yeah that's a great resource and check. Check your local state's our state has the Tennessee agricultural enhancement program we've gotten a lot of money through that. For building hoop houses buying equipment. It's a matching grant you know fifty fifty. But you just you write a proposal. They're trying doing courage small farms. So there is money available and I know some people have issues with you know do I want to get involved in that obviously you want to read the fine print and make sure they're not going to take over your farm or something but you know I read some quotes that Mrs White Some years ago that really changed my thinking on that. And basically. To Paris. You know we need to be get whatever money we can get from whoever because that money's not going to do anybody any good at some point. So you know if we can get that money to be furthering the Lord's work. That's my paraphrase this media was brought to you by audio first a website dedicated to spreading God's word through free sermon audio and much more if you would like to know more about audio. If you would like to listen to more sermon leave a Visit W W W verse or.

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