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EGW, the Bible, and Me

Chantal Klingbeil
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Why do I need Ellen White’s writings if I have the Bible? What does inspiration mean? Are Ellen’s White’s writings as inspired as the Bible? What was is like to have a vision? In this interactive seminar we will tackle the big questions. Be ready to be involved!




  • October 21, 2017
    4:15 PM
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Great Heavenly Father we thank you so much for the privilege of being together the so often noon we pray for your spirit in a special way as we explore this wonderful gift for we also see Jesus name a man. Well before we begin perhaps you're wondering about the funny accent or is it a real common X. into round here that Southern. You don't hear an accent a that's a compliment. OK a little bit about me. The accent is kind of a South African accent maybe a little watered down because we left South Africa quite a while ago but that's where the accent from so I have every now and again I may say something that sounds real strange or pronounce a word in a way that you may not recognize it I'm not offended in the least if you just wave and say. And so will try again or get someone to translate it so that might be might be even easier. Yeah I've worked for the white estate at the general well we situated at the General Conference do all of you know what the Elegy watch of state is yeah. Yeah kind of you know what we do. No idea you know you're very brave because before I actually when I was interviewing for the job I was like So what are they what do you actually DO I didn't know myself so the the Elegy white estate Ellen White set up a trust to commit all of her documents to on her in her will she set up for the provision to have her documents her publications looked ofter So that was the beginning of the L.N.G. white a state so we have all of her original manuscripts about a hundred thousand manuscripts pages we have them in a great big fireproof bolt down there so we have all of them now of course at all the study centers and branch offices they all copies of everything that we have but we've got all the original documents we also have first editions of everything. We have incoming mail all the latest the power written to Ellen White that have been preserved and that's really interesting for forgetting context yeah. We do we do it straight. Away. Yes Well we've still We've still got the Bible we've got it now in a nice gloss display thing and we were in Colombia Well we in the UK we actually Maryland we sitting right. Columbia Pike we stand right there we've got the big Bible the eighteen and a half pound Bible it's under its gloss frame and we've got the same edition. And that people get to hold and that's always a great hit when they. Try to hold it with their left hand see how far they get let me just do a quick ed with it at the sport if any of you are in Washington D.C. the area please come and visit us we Has anyone seen the new museum exhibit. OK All right what did you think of it OK Thank you good I'll pay you later all right that is my sister in law so but I didn't tell it to say OK yes you saw it and what did you think this you saw it last year. June OK you can you can come again because there's more displaced now and more electronics and so it's well worth the visit so please come when you come by Come and have a look it's exciting Let's begin I said we were working in groups so turn to the person next year and we'll start off with a real tough question real tough question. Discuss with the person next to you which is the doctrine that Ellen watch writings bring to Adventism OK Which doctrine. Does Ellen whites writings bring to Adventism if you have would more than one you have to sort it out but but with you and your partner. OK I give you a minute turn to the person next to you and which doctrine does L. watch writings bring to Adventism. One alright are you ready let's get some feedback which doctrines do Ellen wants writings bring to Adventism. Anyone. OK You look like you're going to have the right answer so I'm not going to last you ask you immediately yes. OK she says one of them being the health message anyone else. The power of the Holy Spirit within the church OK I don't know if I call that a doctrine exactly but a very important aspect yes definitely I guess I believe some years in the Bible but I believe that Illinois writing all of the biblical flood that we know but I do believe just to have. A law all right it sounds like you wanted to give us the answer what Prancer did you want to give. Investigative judge front OK I am. Yes. We were discussing. What is. As a result. She said schools. Are All Right that was a very good wall map and so you better be aware because they'll be plenty of questions like this. Absolutely correct ever white brings no doctrine to Adventism zero zilch nada OK our doctrines off founded on the Bible the Bible Salo the very natural question would be. If we've got everything we need in the Bible. Why do I need Ellen White. Turned to the person next to you why do I need I don't why she doesn't bring anything to me Dr me why on earth do I need her. All right so you've all sorted it out and you've got it crystal clear now right. So why do I need Ellen whites writings anyone yes please. Yes. Which which was. Which was always. From this. Study is. Just so you saying confirmation of biblical truth OK let me go to the other side and we'll come back let's go to the back yes. All right a lot of details for end time Lisa lied leading to the great TO LIKE good to us. I really don't. See. OK you can stay with the Bible alone and many thousands of people. Like you just modern or do you. Think. It's very helpful actually like so much always good good I'm good a good observation OK Did everyone hear what she said all right she said you don't need and want for salvation you get everything you need in the Bible but it's vital for the time we're living in right now where we're going to come back to some of these points OK I'm gonna move us along I'm gonna move us along you'll get a chance you'll get a chance so probably tying into what you said over here let's have a look at the relationship between Ellen White and the Bible now for our I'm sure we have to logins here and I'm. Sure we have people with a lot of experience let me put a little disclaimer to you this is this is a beginner's course OK so it's just sort of written for my level so it's just really the beginning it's course just hands down simple hands on stuff so probably when we talk about Ellen White and the Bible they say confusion there's a lot of confusion we've spoken we've said Do I need to be saved and the question is no OK so why don't you don't like then what is her relationship to the Bible what is her authority what is the comparison between Ellen White and the Bible so let's take a little Let's take a little sort of a the to do and we're going to do it South American style we're going to do some boating I live full for eleven years in Peru and Argentina and in those countries when it comes to election time you have to go and vote it's a civic duty you have to vote if you don't vote you get five and all right so you may vote for whoever is on the ballot but you may not choose not to vote so you have to vote so you have to vote the soft you know K. you have to vote and you only have one vote right you don't have to vote you only have one vote or right so I'm going to give you three symbols over here and you got to vote for Ellen whites relationship to the Bible now we've all done meth at some point so. We can say Ellen why is greater than the Bible by that I mean that I need Ellen watching order to read my Bible I read my Bible through Elam white OK great to then I'll give you the three options and then we're going to vote all right. Ellen why is that less then the Bible. Right less then the Bible. Bibles great to a Whites writings are less then. All are. We have equal and watch writings all equal to the Bible right those are your options are you ready to vote or act we will if you're embarrassed because you hear with your friend you can vote just in front of just that I see it right just in front. Of. The lay stand in the equal to or I'm going to let you just vote as you would understand it here. More clarification what we will clarify afterwards will make you fall out first before you know what the candidate stands for OK here we go here we go all right all those separate verse vote for all the greater then. Anyone brave enough. OK Everyone is looking at everyone else this is how democracy works OK great so then all right no one good very good now now you have to choose carefully who's going for less then. Alright. Alright that's that's a good chunk that's a good chunk Alright who's going for equal to they are in the minority but they are good a good chunk to greater then less then and so we had no greater then we had a lot of lace then and we had some equal to use good would you like to know the correct answer. OK you have to wait I. Don't have to what we will come back to it we will come back to it. But before we come back to that we need to answer this because this will I'm locked the key to what we have been speaking about now Althea logins that are amongst us and any theology students that have already done a course on inspiration keep it simple OK Keep it simple and with your partner as briefly and as simply as possible discuss what you mean by inspiration or what you think inspiration means OK Go for it. OK you all feeling inspired. Excellent excellent what let's just take let's take three short answers OK what does it mean to be inspired. Anyone. Yes please. To have God speaking to you to you. To you and through you OK All right maybe someone who hasn't spoken yet yes. To be led. All right. Well OK yes. By the Holy Spirit so you two are working in tandem yet Good to be led by the Holy Spirit. I'm noticing that apart from you the persons who have ventured an answer here a little more mature. Because I think that this question is a little bit. Sticky it's a little bit sticky but it doesn't have to be sticky but it is extremely important that each one of us have a grasp on this because all of the defect is. All of the great critics of Ellen White hold this in common they all had a wrong view of inspiration they all had a wrong view of inspiration and if you hold the wrong view of inspiration it will influence the way you read Ellen White and most probably you will end up having the Met pulled out from under your feet and not just with Ellen Watts writings but also with the Bible. Because it's the same inspiration that works yes. You know yes just I'm just going to touch on that I'm just going to touch on that but before we do that let's do a very practical experiment a very practical experiment it's a fun experiment let me give you a tiny taste of what it is like just a tiny taste without the supernatural element involved of what it would be like to have a vision OK so what I want you to do is make sure you have a partner or act make sure you have a partner and one of you is one and one is two or it's just so worked out who's won and who's to write all day any odd numbers because we need to sort the odd numbers out because we need a one in a to. OK as everyone have a partner and you know who's one and you know who's to could you going to do different things the ones in the twos are going to do different things. OK So yes or you're in the odd number of here all right let's let's try to put. A rock will have to. Anybody else need a partner. OK you two got together anyone else looking for a partner. All right you're looking for a partner we need one more partner back here. OK you got a partner All right so number one it's I'm going to show you something all right and you're going to pay careful attention to what I'm going to show you you may not say anything while I show it to your item or show you a picture you study that picture right but you don't say anything number twos don't cheat you going to keep your eyes closed All right number twos may not cheat they have to keep their eyes closed Are you ready all right all right so number twos close your eyes close your eyes and do not cheat number ones study that picture. Number one study that picture I'm going to give you give you twenty seconds to study that picture. OK taking all the details that you care. All right number two this year my open your eyes number twos my open your eyes now number one please explain to number two what you saw explain to number two what you saw. OK OK. Have a look number two says Have a look at what the number one soul. All right now grade them did they do a good job. There. Is is that what you imagined to be. All right some people are going like. Other people going absolutely yes sorry. OK nothing nothing like it. Oh I see. Now that was a very simple exercise but this is what a prophet faced. All this is what a prophet faces a prophet get shown a vision a prophet get shown a vision by God and then it's the prophet job to transmit it to tell others what he or she has seen so you experimented a little bit all of that the seeing and the telling for a number ones and I remember once you realize immediately that you are somewhat inhibited it's difficult to make people see exactly what you saw it's not easy now compound that with you being the only person alive who has seen that particular thing all right so you can imagine how difficult that is because you have to try to grab on things that your audience is going to understand and try and make comparisons I heard lots of you making comparisons to things that you thought. What your your partner would understand now if I compare all of you here I'm pretty sure most of you use the word Jesus right you used the word Jesus in your description and you used colorless your name colors you probably mentioned the the the flame or the light OK So you used a lot of similar vocabulary but I'm pretty sure that there were no two of you that said exactly the same thing over here why didn't you say exactly the same thing. You needed to use body language yes. It wasn't dictated you saw all you used your own experience you used your own language you Truong if you know your friend well you try to meet them and explain it in the way that they would understand it OK so this will be part of the process of inspiration now Ellen White roads she said I am very dependent on God Of course she didn't choose when she had a vision she didn't choose how she'd have the vision she didn't choose what she was going to scuse me what she was going to see that was God given but when it came time to transmit it she tried her best but she realized oh this Tosk is bigger than what I am so she would pray and she would pray continually God help me God help me God help me transmit this faithfully and as well as I can so it's not an independent process of the Holy Spirit when you start transmitting but your personality your language all of it gets involved God doesn't just inspire one part of the person God works with all of the person and we see in the Ellen White You see when she starts out her first. Manuscripts that she has the spelling is atrocious. She only has third grade education OK The grammar is BET punctuation is not good right she's trying she's trying James helps or James fortunately has school teacher background he helps or editing correcting moving paragraphs I mean you know like a public speaker those who have to have taken public speaking you begin you keep saying the same thing over and over when you get you know you need to learn and you look at TELL her writings progress and they I mean. When she really makes an effort she reads she tries she reads books she tries to embed to her way of transmission and you can see how it improves over the years and then you have Moss to pieces like desire of ages coming out later on so you can see how that process moves on but this is likely important to understand over here because they all of course two ways of thinking of inspiration I'm just calling it here verbal and thought Now if you get hung up on verbal inspiration you're in for trouble all right because verbal inspiration means dictation God dictates and the prophet writes down. This presupposes a whole lot of things this presupposes that God skips a person's personality and takes over the brain and possesses them God doesn't do that that's not the way God works that's the way the devil works when the devil possesses a person he takes up with a brain they often have no knowledge off the words of what they did while they were under the influence of the of the evil spirit you will know people that are mediums that sometimes when they are channeling the spirit they will even speak in a mild voice when they female. They have writing will change and they will react in a completely different handwriting while they're under the influence of that spirit now that is verbal inspiration right they can't stop it they can't hold it up they don't think about it they make no choices they all moved like an Automator. That is the way the devil inspires that is not the way God inspired us God works with the prophet he uses the prophets talent he uses the prophets mind he even uses the prophets emotions. And the prophet and God work together in the transmission of the message so that is the fundamental thought that we have with. With our thought inspiration. We have received a vision all sometime just an order will form they hear the prophets and they rock to down they write it down in their own words and that's important to remember. And that does not exclude them doing secondary research it does not exclude them doing secondary research especially when Ellen walk wrote the great controversy she often had while to she worked in the great controversy actually a whole life from her first vision and there were several editions of the great controversy that came out and each time she would in Hans that she would have more visions she would have more insights and she'd have more to add to it each time but very often it would be something like. She would get to vision and the vision would be something like. If you watch it if your friends are watching a movie and you walk in on the movie what do you say. Well get out of the way that's right they stand in front the screen but otherwise you say what's this about what's going on who's he what she doing why is he up there OK So immediately you start asking questions because you're trying to get context and you try to figure out what's going on so a lot of her visions battle scenes that she would see certain historical events that she would see she would actually come in to in to the vision and ask her company Angel what's going on what's this what's that a lot like John keeps asking the angel what's going on in. Book of Revelation and Angel would explain sometimes he would say this and that and pointed to important things but when she came out of the vision she would often Daksha for the history books to find out more all just like OK so I know the guys in the blue while you and I know that the papal forces were with the cars on the red and I know the city that that happened but what year did that happen and let me see where that happened and she would research and very often especially with the great controversy she would look at it she would read the historical account and she would say absolutely yeah that's exactly what I saw that's how it went but sometimes she would read it and she would say that they got it wrong that's not what happened I saw this in this in this but this little detail that they have on you know all this mind point that this is story and made it's not true I saw it differently so sometimes she would actually correct what she had seen and that is totally fascinating that's all right now it's totally fascinating especially I mean you have you have Professor just like here and he's done extensive work on Ellen White and the Civil War and it's very interesting critics for a long time pointed to certain things that Ellen White sit that she had seen in vision about certain battles of the Civil War and said that's wrong what she says it contradicts the newspaper accounts of it and very interesting B. He points out that every time she said it was wrong it was wrong the official newspaper account was wrong. People had insufficient information or they would deliberately covering up covering up for a general or someone who made a big mess and was scared of getting getting themselves fired at but the truth has come out from other accounts later on through research so very very interesting So yes. Oh yeah. You gotta get your sources from many sources over here so important point they collectively Tiro and they wrote in their own words in their own words being not a dictation from God did they copy did they copy from other writers this yeah this look at your New Testament right to this they did a lot of copying from Old Testament they did a lot of copying from sick you know sources as well extra biblical sources when it made their needs and what does the exact same thing she does the exact same thing from other sources but what makes it important is that all of this is done under the supervision of the Holy Spirit it's all done under the supervision of the Holy Spirit over here so an extremely important point OK let's get back to our vote when you say you were hoping that I'd forgotten Oh no not OK Let's get back to our vote over here now that we've got some background on out inspiration to hear. So in the script this is the year all of what great event. Reformation the reform nation and we stand firm belief firmly in the Protestant camp because we believe that the Bible is this. Is our sauce all of truth for a doctrine practice it's all rooted in the Bible the Bible is our firm platform I don't like unlike other denominations denominations we do not think that our prophet improves on the Bible we do not think that she impact is the Bible no the Bible is the basis it's the foundation for everything we believe but an important point the Bible itself does not exclude other authority. Can you see the difference the Bible is the foundation but it doesn't exclude other authority take the Bible itself you have the prophet Nathan. The Prophet Knight then turns up to talk to. David now. Becomes part of the biblical canon David all nice and. David does that he did so well in the Bible we have nothing of Nathan's we have nothing of my things does that mean Nathan was not inspired. He was very inspired and used mean he was the man for the moment a very brave men to confront King David with his son and speak to him head on OK So the Bible is the basis but it does not exclude extra biblical authority does not exclude extra biblical authority as a matter of fact it makes provision for extra biblical ways that God can speak to us the new. Testament to tells us that we must test the prophets so it's assuming that the gift of prophecy will stay with the church until in time but it needs to be tested because they will be false prophets as well as true prophets so it needs to be there all right who voted that Ellen White is lace then the Bible. And now you can be brave and you can put up your hair and yes then all right if you follow to that you are correct you are correct Y Y L Y It is below the Bible because she is twisted by the Bible we do not test the Bible but in the white we test and white by the Bible so that's an important point to have all right who voted and whacked is equal to the Bible. OK now you're embarrassed right. Well you don't you don't have to be you don't have to be because you are correct. Now how does that work now how does that work. Aha aha inspiration is inspiration so Ellen White is below the Bible because she's tested by the Bible but why does she passes the test then I cannot say on second thoughts I don't want to pay any attention why can't I do that. Because the same stuff I've tested or to see if the same Spirit inspired her as the Bible and if she passes the activist then I'm obligated to say. OK God you want to speak to me here too I'm open I'm open OK So these are not mutually exclusive Oh sorry she points to. She tested by the Bible she points to the Bible and her writings all as authoritative as the Bible because we have the same inspiration we have the same author so I can't pick and choose what I feel like over here I can pick and choose as much as I can pick and choose with the Bible. If you pass the test you move into a different category Yes you know that is an excellent question so why doesn't every person out there know him why. Some of her writings would be specifically some of the stuff she writes is very specific for the Adventist Church in the terms of like some of the Biblical instruction is for a certain time period for instance the bowling of the century and the C'mon about how big the table of SHOEBRIDGE needs to be and how many pagans need to be put on the sanctuary eccentrics cetera it's not exactly a pickable to us today is it alright it's they it was very a political to that time and that place they are still lessons we can learn from it a secondary source of here but it's for a specific time and a specific place but there's plenty of universal principles that can be drawn out and continually used and I think with Ellen Watts writings the same thing is there that's point number one point number two unfortunately and we'll talk about a little bit more is the way that she's presented. There is an awful lot of confusion and there's an awful lot of confusion many people think that Seventh Day Adventists have a prophet like the Mormons have a prophet that replaces the Bible that we knew we had the Bible and somebody else that you need to be saved or something else that you need to be saved that we're not firmly you rooted on the Bible and probably another good Another good reason why a lot of Christians maybe have not been exposed to her is or have not accepted her is the exposure that she gets. We can blame the internet unfortunately the most the most. Aggressive opponents of Ellen White X. Adventists and they've always got a real big bond to pick and they make it their life's mission to go. It online and to run different sites eccentric cetera and if you look into they arguments it's mostly a misunderstanding of inspiration. That they that they work on. Maybe we'll touch back on that question a little bit further over here but I think it's a very very good question all right time is going on so let's give you let's give you a very quick question What dangers do you see in verbal inspiration now that we've seen thought inspiration why would it be a bad thing for anyone to say I believe that God dictated everything she said word for word you know God said it I believe it and that's enough for me why do you think that could be dangerous. Ok to your partner quickly so that more people can express themselves. OK Let's go around let's go to this side a little bit What dangers do you see any. In a belief in verbal inspiration. Anyone from the side that's neglected side yes it could lead to a blind acceptance of anything new and you show. Good yes I think I can see that OK it could lead to a blind acceptance of anything new and and usual she says OK anyone else pointed. To killing. Jews. Claim. Their. Luggage all right that's a very good point he's brought up he says you've got issues with translation because if it's verbal then God spoke it in the original language like in Islam any any translation is not valid because when you translate you do interpret you have to so you've got big problems there people we hear this all the time at the White estate any time anyone wants to modernize any English people have a riot because you don't mess with Ellen White's words OK a little bit of verbal inspiration out there yes anyone else. Says. OK So she says freedom of choice and it brings in a real issue with freedom of choice or I one last comment yes. Can you combine them. Yes. Yes. Yes yes. Dictation Yes Yeah all. Right. You. Exactly if you find if you believe in as I'm calling it vocal inspiration all this dictation model and if you find a spelling error. That can destroy your faith because God is perfect God doesn't make spelling mistakes all right and that's no joke someone lost a faith during Ellen White's lifetime because Ellen wife wrote about what she had seen in vision for a certain hospital and she mentioned that there WERE hundred forty rooms there and she said and all these hundred forty rooms you know and she mentioned the hundred forty rooms and she'd been shot blah blah and this person got they lost their faith because they were one hundred forty two rooms. There one hundred forty two rooms and she goes on to clear she says the angel never told me how many rooms they were he showed me the situation I heard from someone that they were one hundred forty rooms so I just put that in you know I but the point of the vision wasn't about how many rooms they were it was about the situation at that at that particular hospital All right so you see the danger of a here you see the dangers without detracting people at the same problem with the Bible why and why gospel is they why don't demon possessed and in the other one this too I mean couldn't they get their story straight OK. That's right and you have sometimes you have a deliberate or not a deliberate a real accident some of the New Testament writers actually quote they say in the book of US law it's a section such and it's not it's Hosea so made a real a real mistake of the day they must quoted All right so you see you see what this kind of belief can do to your Phife and in your faith all in God over here. All right. Would you like to take a break but I know. You don't want to take a break oh wow OK. Yes. Oh thank you thank you yes. Yes. Yes. OK Yes Yes the star here is speaking about how the Bible was transmitted before Moses wrote the bible down that it was transmitted orally and probably because of our shrinking brains and capacity God Actually actually inspired Moses Moses soul a lot as well in vision and Moses wrote things down because if it left a tooth transmission from memory to memory we you know we'd end up with some of these crazy myths and legends today down here OK let's get back to your question at the back why all why is Ellen White perhaps. Not as widely accepted as she could be or she should be OK now this is a particular burden for me. Because in my area I work at the White estate I work particularly with children teens and young adults that's kind of my area of focus with how we can make Ellen White. Interesting how we can brand her really brand her for another generation. Because we have ever White has faced a lot of criticism from when she was alive she faced a lot of criticism the devil had it in for her. Right through her life she had a lot of criticism after her death we've had waves and waves of criticism and every time it revolves around a wrong understanding of inspiration has been one of the primary problems but then I do make the same cycles for instance thirty years ago you know with the Ford crisis Exeter we had the century. And then Ellen why it's been tackled and then we had the plague or ism issue come out and why can't be inspired because she copied from other people and of course there were very exaggerated accounts of how she copied and if she was trying to cover up that she was copping eccentric cetera. All of those questions have been well researched well documented and if anyone has any issues I will point you to sources online where you can read to your heart's content when you can get any any and every answer I mean we get questions all the time and and what I normally do I'll tell you a secret we get all these e-mail questions what I normally do is I go straight to questions and answers in a website I put in them the main word and I copy and I paste the answers out and I put it with the person's name and I send it off again because they are very seldom any new questions they're always the same they're always the same the same thing did she copy or did she really write steps to Christ who did a secretary right you know so I'm all questions but the real problem we facing with our young adults. Teens and right down to children is irrelevance it's not that they have major issues with all washee plague arising it's lack Who cares. Good for her if she was a prophet COO they're doing a thing it just doesn't affect me so that's the biggest challenge yes. I mean she's one. Straight Male or male dominated. One with. That is that is that is a good question and I like that question thank you there were a lot of female prophets in the Bible we had judges know we had prophets holder the prophet being one. Maryam was she's also the Marine the prophet test over there Deborah does some some prophesies judge that she comes through so we do have this which is very rich and. If we have Philip with the seven daughters that prophesied so then they they all they. They are they sorry did I make a mistake I know OK so that they they all they. You know I like it that God chose Ellen because and when with a calling he told her he is picking the weakest of the weak over here which she really was when the prophetic gift was given to a good strong male. To the to his and for us which was actually related to her by marriage. It was her older sister's brother in law. And heat he turned it down. God said to him I'm going to give it to someone the weakest of the weak why. To make sure that people know that the messages are from me because they couldn't of originated with a seventeen year old. Sick frail tuberculous read some a good shot I know of this young girl. With a third grade education you know just to show you lack pulsars my strength This made perfect in weakness weakness and give some little glimpse of the Heights a person can expand to when they accept God's calling in their life and move with God So yes thanks for that so back to Ellen White back to introducing Ellen White. We unfortunately if we go back a couple of generations now I don't want to point fingers I want to point fingers and somewhere here in the middle I don't want to point fingers but we have we've had cycles that have gone through the church we've had cycles that have gone through the church. We have off to the in the in but when when the watch was still alive when ever what was going live most people still had a balanced idea of who she was what she was I mean they'd heard her they'd seen her even a small children but the next generation to pass on there were a lot of social forces we have the first world war breaking out and all the social Trying to us that brings in so we have the next generation that comes in they all come in with quite a heavy hand it's this is a long white they got in her memory they got in her writings and the next generation that starts saying yeah but why should I be listening what does this have in it for me it was sort of the attitude be quiet and do what I say. Don't ask questions she's inspired you are asking you to challenge in God if you if you ask any questions so just be quiet and do what she said yeah but this doesn't make any sense what does she mean by not going to theatre what does she mean by cheese what we don't ask just do it OK Don't mess with it just do it so we had this generation grow up and they were like distinctly awkward but they were obedient and so they did what they were told their kids became hippies. And. The challenge there was you know question authority. So Ellen White was an authority figure a big one so she got question and she couldn't question big but parents that generation couldn't they didn't have any answers they gave the only answer that they had had which was be quiet and do it. And that might have worked for their generation but it definitely wasn't working for the free thinking hippy bunch so they were like no way actually just because you say it I say the opposite and we had these great I mean I'm really simplifying but we have these great social movements and we have a lot of people leaving the church over L M Y But at this time those that stay in the church well they didn't have the questions answered about Islam what they didn't understand but they love Jesus they love the church they will they understood the biblical doctrines so they stayed but when they had kids they just said nothing about it because they didn't want to lie. Because it's all quiet so they just said nothing they just like well the kids can figure at that out for themselves when when they want to if they want to. And now that generation of say nothing has grown up and they have kids. And they've heard nothing in what and what and what he wasn't a pioneer or something I don't know but in the olden days they used to read a lot of us stuff OK so that's about as far as it goes so we off I see in a very big crisis our value Genesis studies that we've been doing they show Ellen White on all of this just yet horrified all levels was I don't want to profit. Thirteen years ago it was forty percent of high schoolers sit she was a prophet it's way down. The last one was maybe twenty maybe twenty into action with Ellen what do you know if you read or have read to you something of Ellen White once a week or less you know but at least once a week I mean once a week or more not place once a week or more that was a thirty years that was about thirty percent the last value in the study it's just a value Genesis study it's two percent. Two percent so they stay you know that a good list B. and those that did the survey they said for those of you do statistics on the next survey that statistically irrelevant that question OK the last one they were bringing out in it's come out in sections I think it was fifteen or sixteen. Two thousand and fifteen or sixteen yes. Yes yes yes yes. I. Can you hear her all right my grandmother learned that what they heard. She and so. I. Learned from that generation. Well when my. Kids when my mom lives all teachers would. Not like because she would not like my mother very well. Was fired from her school. Nor why all the way to college. College I'm. From the she went you never read she just. Did what you did as good. So after she got on holiday then yes. Oh Hugh I wish that I had been taught right in google to read this because it changed my life only from that I'm OK thank you just a quick recap for those who couldn't hear she gave what your name Caitlin Caitlin gave a little testimony about her grandparents that came into the church as teens and actively studied and got they questions answered and accepted Ellen White and talk they daughter to do so but when she went to school her teacher actually. The scary jc Ellen White reading so she stopped until off to college where she actually began studying and reading and watch for herself this is her mom OK thank you thank you for that or write a ticket for short because we got a lot to cover Yes. But. Yes I. Have a lot of. My own life. And yes yes. Yes yes yes so many I lose when those. People would be ready oh. Absolutely. Thank you thank you very much she's she says she works to a lot with kids and they have these questions and those are very teachable moments if at that moment we take the opportunity to to work with it so very briefly very briefly bit without moping around let's let's change the tide let's change the tide and to do that I you each one of us has a part to play and it's not a very difficult part has some very practical tips for turning the tide OK here we go how to introduce Ellen White to someone else now I'm talking about child I'm talking about other Adventists that are negative towards her don't judge people especially other adults that are negative toward. It's are they not bad Adventists OK They've had experiences and they've been exposed to different things so don't judge them all right this is an opportunity for an opportunity it's not something negative they're not lower Closs Adventists OK so just that was just a side advertising All right yes point number one and I call and emphasize this all right you all the introduction you all the introduction if you mention Ellen what if people know you read you the introduction they were quite set with you what does that mean that means if you negative sour What difficult and I'm lovable so is Ellen White. If you positive happy energetic if you're getting something from it and it's giving you a better way of life that's fantastic advertising OK So that is so important children already and in these surveys we find you have little kids you say do you know Ellen why do this and they will already say. They don't like oh why don't you like a because my mother makes a funny face every time she hears that name OK so they picking up they picking up the vibes they've never read a thing but they picking up all right so we all the introduction let's positively role model her advice people all willing and open for things that work now if I come to you and I look at your and I say what are you eating Did you know that Ellen White said that that stuff is not foot for human consumption. Didn't you know any better than that. You probably are not making a convert to wards L M What like OK On the other head and on the other hand if you're in a group and you say I am feeling so much better since I've started getting eight hours of sleep at night you know it really makes a difference I will to concentrate better blah blah really Yeah I have you know I've got all these new these new fantastic point is that I'm trying to apply some of the really tough I'm struggling on it but the ones I've managed to get in I'm. Really seeing benefits really yeah what's cool I could try that you are a positive advert people aren't looking for perfection they're looking for authenticity OK so let's model that over here tell human interest stories you know. Anyone know what I want five color was. That wasn't black pink Yes Pink favorite dessert. Lemon pie someone's done our homework here OK yes human interest stories people are interested what was it like what was she like as a mother what was she like as a wife did her and James never have any trouble well there are plenty of trouble OK they had things they had to work through it's very inspirational actually OK share your experience we spoke about that share your experience with her writings and that's not just this is I mean I could talk all day about what I've gotten out of steps to Christ it's one of my favorite books is just when I'm feeling down it's just such a good book it's so practical OK but you could go on and on about that. Don't use it in a Bible study. OK Don't use an I'm watching a Bible study. OK how we're going to put this gently nicely that it's culturally I guess sensitive as well but. When you walk into a Sabbath school class or you walk into a group and you in a seventh school group class or whatever and you hear Ellen White says whites is a Marxist Why says I watch you go off the wall this is a Bible study you isn't every white study here OK remember everything we believe is founded on the Bible use the Bible use the Bible Hughes Ellen White yourself but you don't have to quote all. Time is specially in groups where she's not well known do it gentle subtle thing not do in your face thing OK don't do an in your face thing it's not as effective not as effective sharing a favorite quote on your Facebook page on your Twitter account OK just share a fiver quote for the day something positive you know the throne of grace is always accessible that's a nice little quote begin your day here right just a short one liner. That goes a long way to tell of a struggles and victories now we could talk a whole lot about that I just mentioned a marriage did you know that Ellen White and jives now watching James faced I mean they are the indicators that they list experiences that up your chances of divorce OK and they all there are five big ones Ellen White and James had four of the five the only one that they didn't experience was marital infidelity but all the other things that kill marriages they experienced and it wasn't easy it rocked the boat for both of them tremendously. But they went through it and they came out on the other side more in love with each other and more united but it wasn't easy now hearing that kind of story at least for me has been faithful doing has been faithful ding rather then she's not a saint she never Wallace she was a human being dedicated to following God working for God and doing what God called her to do she didn't have a direct line God didn't tell her how to raise her kids specifically she had to have a black sheep in the family Edson Edson. Was a terrible child already from Little he was alive. He was sneaking around by the time he was a young adult he had discovered that using the Y. claim could get you some financial benefits he would go into a small town you know with a couple of Adventist families and you tell them you know I'm it's and white and of course they were well and he you know I want to do some mission outreach stuff here we going to have this little printing press and blah blah Can you lend me money people are lending money is business dreams were. Not that good you need mismanaged the money and when it was gone he'd skipped town so the people would write of course to James and Ellen saying you know we lent your son fifty dollars hundred dollars whatever we'd really like our money back. You can imagine how James and Ellen felt I mean it led to friction between the two of them because James Watt was the tough love kind of guy he off to Wall said you know what then they should just take him to court I mean he's made his bed he should sleep in it Ellen on the other side was the mother which I can understand she was like well will bail him out this time and told him never to do it again. So I mean there was this kind of thing that went on. James and it's and had a very strained relationship right up until James's death in one thousand nine hundred one off a little time later I mean that scene that Captain Cold of a little while later it's an writes to Ellen and he says you know what I've discovered I've discovered that I am not in the least interested in religion I'm not a religious person. That's the prophet son. He's not interested in religion any more she writes the most Hawk wrenching latest that we have copies of those in the vault she writes back to him she says it's I'm. It's not made up I've seen heaven. It's worth every. Thing you don't want to give it up and she puts the preacher says but for me how will have an be if my boy is simply Edson you know and we don't know if that makes any impact because the next day to she writes to her sister or daughter in law she says Emma please see that it's a reads and reads this and doesn't burn it so you know what's going on there OK. Praise the Lord for all of us with children that are not following keep right there's hope when Ellen White wrote about having you know having to posts per person via him pray she knew what she was talking about AIDS and did find Jesus but he was forty three years old when he found Jesus and all the great book that it's and did because you know he's known as the pioneer missionary down the Mississippi after the Civil War He opens the work in the self I mean it all has its And I'm all over it but he's forty three years old before he begins OK that's a side note OK tell of our struggles and fig trees over here give a book give a book all right what book Stop with the controversy series steps to Christ desire of ages check out where you're interested counsels on diet and food is not probably a good introductory book OK just say just say there are exceptions they are exceptions you will hear but you know perhaps not the best. Depending on your audience go for easy to read once as an introduction they are not inferior remember we don't believe in their of all inspiration OK so these books are easier for a modern reader I mean she did write some plea for her day compare it to any other novel of the day you will see her language is very simple but for many readers today who are not used to reading at. All all secular and church people this is a much easier read sentences are shorter would order is changed around to make it flow easier all right and you may want to look at and a bridge book for a beginning we had a big fight when the great hope was released a lot of people got really upset and say that they watering down the truth they chopping up the book they only are they embarrassed that I only want to give out small bits of the book except for. Folks when you go out of the supermarket and the introduction introducing a new product they do not give you a whole casserole right. Thank you if you add a sample and if you like it you will spend money and buy a big one and eat it so this is rather than knocking someone over the head with the great controversy that's so big to read give them a sample get they taste buds tickled and then give them something more over here this one here Messiah I've experienced this is a really good one to give for people who've already negative about and want that don't want to read anything from Ellen White you get them the Messiah my friend I did it with her and she was very suspicious because she'd heard about this weird prophet that we have very and it's wonderful lady but very suspicious and I gave a messiah she read that still with us a lovely book really enjoyed it I said You do realize that that's based on another book it's been paraphrased and it's you know and it's actually written by and what really she wants something. Oh wow an opening and opening OK So yes. OK Yes She's she's asking about messages to young people is there is there something over there OK. I feel they is a call to stand apart but I don't think it's in its imprint anymore unfortunately. There is of course latest a young law cetera but currently the board is looking into bringing out something new God has used that book mightily I will not deny it and it's very relevant but the calm pilot did have a bone to pick with a lot of people he really did take out some of the harder stuff that he could without the mitigating. Other paragraph along with it so yes I agree with you there is a great need there yes. Yes. Yes. OK Well that book was originally written for last for South America. And if you know anything about South America you will know that Catholicism very is very strong and they didn't want to offend they wanted to get a foot in the door without having people preaching from the pulpits and telling people for a call to burn books so they did take the stuff that they figured would be too hard or too heavy and brought it down contain steps to give people a positive first impression with contact information of where they could download for free and this has been the most distributed book and it has led to back to them all of thousands this is been the book that has led to much to most in within the last ten fifteen years. It was a very big success but it's a sample that's a sample of well OK are you steps to Christ or septs to Jesus that's a great way to a great way to begin very briefly because we've still got the real exciting stuff is still coming so let's move on very quickly the really exciting stuff coming so just some quick don'ts bomb bomb bomb we'll just fly through over here OK don't use eval watch as a weapon. Don't use Ellen White as a weapon all right if I tell you Ellen White say is. And you don't happen to believe in and what I could be telling you buddhists is that's about as much impact as it will have it will only make you more negative you just go I sang out ways knew she was crazy now not really no she's crazy OK so don't use her as a weapon that's not why she was given OK don't use it to end a discussion use or to start a discussion not in the discussion for our older folks this is particularly if true for our young people why did this and that and I want to do this and that don't say Ellen White says to end the discussion say Ellen White says this and this let's find out why she says this and this let's be open and let's explore the biblical basis for why she says this and this OK she's there to begin discussions not in discussions of here. Let's not use her to try to control others Ellen White is written primarily for me not for you. And until I have internalized I am not ready to make you accept her. And let's not use or at least mention this as entrance to an exclusive club. Let's not use or has introduced an exclusive club I I've read through the complex series four times is just so great I just love reading OK And you've never read anything I think you feel a little out over here right yes. That's a very good question I'm also getting some of the letters were written to specific people how do we know if that applies to us what applies to other people what applies to me how do I figure that out can I come back to that question it's in our in our next in our little next presentation this media was brought to you by audio verse a website dedicated to spreading God's word through free sermon audio and much more if you would like to know more about him or universe or if you would like to listen to more sermons leaves A W W W dot. Org.


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