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Why the Trinity Matters- Part 1

Steve Bauer


Steve Bauer

Professor, School of Religion, Southern Adventist University


  • April 7, 2018
    3:30 PM
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I like to officially begin by saying this is not going to be the usual A.T.'s we're going to be on turbo charging. In the ballpark in ninety minutes plus or minus. We got a giant topic and to try to do it some justice I can't do it in fifteen minutes so. We're in here for the hall and so without further adieu on I want to get started first of all a few resources. With the evidence history of mixed views on the Trinity in our early inception that's coming back to haunt us today. And ministry sources you have this book that's been on sale in the. A.B.C. for some time and still available it's made to be more thorough kind of layman's level it's not heavy scholarship but it is modestly scholarly and has a mix of basic theology and admin a sister E. Some of these issues basics covered in here our own Norman Kelly Volume two specially chapter one. Commander's University Press and. Because he's our local research professor they often have a set or two of these on sale in our college still A.B.C.. General Conference the Biblical research institute has a website and if you hack around in there they've got some stuff on Trinity in administers shoes with the Trinity that can be helpful as well. As a former president of the international. A.T.'s. We have in addition to our scholarly articles on the main website we have a game or Reader's Digest and type version called perspective digest org. If you go to that website put my last name in and when I was president I wrote several short articles addressing some of the key. Anti Trinitarian issues that I was facing back seven or eight years ago that are still relevant today you can also put in the word Trinity and there's other of us who address these issues he's got a number of resources in perspective digest and again if you had back to the main website. For the admin a steel logical society there may be some scholarly stuff in the archives there that you can dig a little deeper with as well there's a lot out there that I could say but a quick primer on the of the history and development of the Trinity in Christianity Miller Eriksson's theology is a good well balanced. On. Overview not admin a specific but gives you a bigger picture of church history and Christian history and the like now. When I came down here from Pastor in the Atlantic Union we didn't have back at the end of the ninety's at least I wasn't finding aware of any great Trinity issues up in the Atlantic union and I walked in the door down here and within a year I got conferences coming to me we got this church that church the other church etc and so between I don't know two thousand and two thousand and six or so I spent so much time in the Gulf states conference that Don Shelton was calling me the associate ministerial secretary and so it appears to me that somewhere in the late ninety's this escalated maybe subsided a little but we're in a new surge particularly in the College Hill area. Of anti trinitarian or non Trinitarian for me they basically believe the same thing the non Trinitarians are quiet about it and the anti can a Terry ans agitate about it. That way there's a great tendency in my experience that these people appear to our pioneers Joseph Bates James White etc and of minimal appeal to the Bible to me it's more of an argument from tradition and I want to name it that you know and so they are entice ing us to argue over our church fathers the way the Catholics argue over the classic church fathers and it's really an argument over tradition and what is the best correct administration and the correct evidence tradition is not to appeal to tradition but to do your bible homework. And so in my view we are repeating patterns of early Christian history and that's what I want to get to in a moment but as somebody once quipped in a and there's no definitive answer on who said this first oh I see all sorts of ascriptions but the one thing we learn from history. Is that we don't learn from history. And I see as following a very similar trajectory to the early church at about twice the speed. Now I want to make a nuance here that I'm not convinced that aren't tied Trinitarian friends recognize it. And that is to make a difference between the cradle Trinity I.E. that the creed that mainline Christian them confesses with very specific details which I'll come back to later. Formally established in three eighty one eighty at the Council of Constantinople and home a Biblical view of the Trinity which is much less defined our pioneers from my interactions with our admin to SR experts from Judd lake to Jerry moon to the own etc. I am quite convinced that when James White and Joseph Bates used the word Trinity they are using it with a perception that we do not use today and they're using it specifically of the creedal definition from the Council of three eighty one today we used the word Trinity for basically any kind of three person Godhead whether the definitions all fit the creedal definition or not and the precision that these people are using I think has been missed in this discussion and there are issues in the creedal Trinity that I would agree are problematic from a biblical perspective and this is what these guys were doing but instead of reusing the name for their own view Trinity is the creed and so we're going to use the term God header or something else if you don't understand that decision you can mess up your admin a sister a very very quickly. Fundamental belief statement on the Trinity what we say about the Godhead would plug quite well into the creed but the Creed goes way beyond the biblical data and so there's stuff in the creed that won't plug so well into our fundamental beliefs OK And so there's some overlap but not a perfect overlap. So with that in mind the doctrine of the Trinity is not explicitly defined in the Bible the way like you get the doctrine of the Sabbath or stuff like this we observe three beings in the Bible etc etc But it's not spelled out in any real doctrinal way of the doctrinal formulation is constructed through doing biblical theology much as we would have a doctrine of healthful living there's no you know chapter and verse where they expound but we take theological principles to build our doctrine of healthful living we take theological principles to argue anti-slavery and you go back a hundred hundred fifty years here in the south and you had people taking Paul statements about slaves obey your masters Paul was affirming slavery why should we get rid of it right. So how do we make a Biblical argument against slavery it's theologically not case based diddle with anti polygamy there's nowhere in the Bible that says Thou shalt not have two wives or two husbands or three unless you follow Mark Twain's XA Jesus or he said there was one text of the Bible that expressly forbid for polygamy no man can serve two masters. We construct our doctrine of the Trinity the same way that we construct our anti polygamy on anti-slavery type stuff etc And so just because we construct it see logically from biblical theology and there's no exact cases doesn't mean it's not Biblical or we'd have to throw out some of these other constructed doctrines as well now onwards to some history since the one thing we learn from history is that we don't learn from history we need to go back and do a little review here the early church started out as being mainly comprised of Messianic Jews right the Gentiles really were coming to the church until X. nine and even through the better part of the first century. The church was dominantly Jewish it's in the early second century that things really get to the Gentile mage a majority as I understand it and home and by the mid second century we start to even get anti-Semitism in the Church history so somewhere in the late first century early second century we moved to a gentile majority in the church so the question is how does a church that starts up with Messianic Jews who have been stripped monotheist and in their Judaism you have one God one person how do they suddenly more right here all Israel the Lord our Lord as one how do they suddenly morph to having some kind of multi-purpose and single god. I think there are three factors involved in this history first of all the New Testament claims of the Deity of Christ so if Christ is God and the Father is God how are you monotheist. Number two early persecution suppressing philosophical theology who went becoming a Christian was a good way to get yourself killed or economically destroyed you're more focused on survival in practical theology than you are on philosophical questions. And so no one's going to think about this apparent I'm monotheist but Christ is God the Father is God you're too busy surviving and looking to God to help you through the persecution by the way early Adventism with a mixed bag of Trinitarian beliefs we were too busy defending the Sabbath and white state of the dead sanctuary eight hundred forty four to ask these philosophical questions and so we had a similar pressure that suppressed that philosophical speculative theology and it just really wasn't a big issue and then in the early church. Especially in the second century we have the explosion of Greek philosophical influence particularly Neoplatonism into church. Leadership especially leaders and bishops were starting to bring Plato into the theology and that's going to play a significant factor it comes to a head in the fourth set early fourth century very end of the third century very early three hundreds Arius brings out his charges that Jesus is the first thing that God made and then he made everything else through Jesus and the traditional New Testament people the idea that Jesus was a created being is obviously a problem and so the Arion controversy raises the question Who is Jesus us in relation to God So if Jesus is Deity how do we only have one god. And that really becomes the question to answer now that area springs that out about this time that this controversy is brewing Constantine converts to Christianity and so there's no more legalized persecution it's now a legal religion if the emperor is Christian right the government's not going to persecute you and so that removes finished removing I think the late third century the of the persecution was waning and so as the persecution wanes the speculative theology increases and the battle against airiest was waged very heavily based on Plato much more than waged on the Bible the Bible was involved but I think Plato was more involved and so these three factors come to play now the Council of Nicea three twenty five A.D. began the process and over the next fifty six years help me out Denis I think that there was a total of four councils as I recall culminating in Constantinople in three eighty one he was at the four or five councils total where they kept coming back to discuss the nature of the Trinity starting with Jesus issues and then the closer we get to the final council they start grappling with the Holy Spirit OK And finally in three eighty one we get in V. cradle formula that orthodox unquote Christianity ascribes to to this day and you have to understand for Orthodox Christianity the trinity is the distinctive feature of Christianity the way Avonex love to fixate on the Sabbath as the distinctive feature the rest of Christianity ficus on the Trinity that's our distinctive you know and so. Almost all of Christianity is tied to this creed even the evangelicals that E.T.S. are citing the creed of though they're a little bit more loose to it than a good Catholic. The higher your church like Anglican in a pickle the more clearly cradle they're going to be the key point of the formula is to show that Jesus was fully God and they follow Plato in the concept to see which is the substance that you're comprised of and they are trying to argue that the Godhead is one substance shared substance same substance that early homo you see a same substance not substance services but one substance shared by three persons and this is because you see a to a great degree seems to function as the ground of reality you are what you are because of your see you your substance so if you have rabbit who see you you're going to act in the function like a rabbit OK so even God this is not necessarily physical substance OK And so God is God because God is comprised of a divine divine substance so therefore if God is a divine substance and we can show that Christ is of the same substance we can refute areas that he's a created being and so they set out to show that Christ was of the same substance of the father Arius put a little I between the two of those home. Would be similar areas said the son was of similar substance to the Father but not the same and so the Creed homo same substance so that her three and same and similar is the divide here how do they get to their being as one will see a same Assia the Latin fathers These are the ones who started to write in Latin starting roughly with her Tooley and before that they were writing in Greek. Then they started to write their works in Latin and so we call them the Latin fathers the Latin fathers literalize and humanized the father son language of the Bible in the New Testament about the earthly Jesus and they extend that by analogy backwards into eternity and it's based to some degree on the Catholic concept of the analogy of being that we can kind of reverse engineer partly who is God by looking at his image and so we know what father son is by looking around us here so if Christ is the Son of God we take this human construct and we now extrapolate it back into eternity and this is what the Latin fathers do and to do that when they bring in the concept of being be gotten. Will get back to the biblical side of this later the son is be gotten by the father because when a father because it's a Son The Son is of the same substance as the father who be got him. So if Christ was be gotten somewhere outside time in eternity kind of a thing then you have this father beget the Son The Son is thus the same substance as the father but that's a little problem because in a human beginning your son has a beginning you preexist the son right your son. And so if the father begat the Son This would give the son a beginning which disqualifies him to be deity right through deity has no beginning so now if we're going to have the Son be gotten by the father in this eternal timeless room how do we avoid a beginning it in the Ensor is the doctrine of the eternal begetting of the son that the father has always and eternally been be getting the Son there's no beginning to this beginning it's a continuous begetting that is always an eternally happening and thus he's the big Otten son but he's even now in the process of being be gotten because it's an eternal process. It's basically God eternally generating the suns that that there is always there but there's this there's this. Generating connection between the two of them and then they went one step further and they used the language of proceeding and the Father and the son together are somehow generating the Holy Spirit who is proceeding from the two of them jointly and because the Holy Spirit is proceeding out of the Father and Son jointly that makes the spirit of the same. As the father and the son in all of this is an eternal process there's no beginning to it notice it's all philosophy. But this is how then we get the Father Son and Holy Spirit to be of the same substance I say we in the sense of traditional Christianity in my view this is precisely what our pioneers did not like about the cradle Trinity Now I also think our pioneers under Smith's understood this I think they cheated a bit modalistic Lee right James White about the three headed god in this and so that they saw Morris three modes of one substance than three persons. In this way but I think in their mind they saw this as making the son eternally dependent on the father for his life and they felt the Bible taught that the son was independently self existence and that this would diminish both the personhood of Christ who you need to have a relation to him to and his self existence which is diminishing his deity and they were rebelling against that. This way so the cradle Trinity goes well beyond the Bible focusing on this substance you see and its role in determining one's being these two key pieces and using the father son analogy from human intending to extrapolate it back into eternity whereas in the biblical Trinity I find three persons functioning named Father Son and Holy Spirit in the Bible. Each one is ascribed as overlapping abilities and functions and attributes. But no explanatory mechanism is offered on how it can be one god you're just left hanging it's a mystery. And our problem comes when we try to supply that explanatory mechanism both in favor of the Trinity like the creed or trying to demystify the Trinity by denying it with our entire Trinitarians both are supplying explanatory mechanisms to try to make God more understandable than he is to human reason. Again the cradle if you reverse engineer it and when you do this folks it's very easy for you to create your own God through logical extrapolation and then bow down to the god you just created in your mind and worship that God and it's by the way this is not just an anti Trinity issue right you can go around for moral influence to legalism to all say there's all sorts of isms where we create God in our own image in our mind we construct our God out of ideas I like Bauer's idea I like the answer he's idea I like this idea and we pull together and we come together this God that we've been bowed down and worship and it's no longer a god of Revelation it's a God who makes sense to me and the more your god makes sense to you the more controllable he comes. I think is a huge problem in Christianity and Adventism today creedal view tends to focus on the oneness of the three. Is very important hope of the treadle view is to get the three the unity the same Lucy to get the divinity of they minimize the interactive relationships of the three They don't deny it but that's not the focus the focus is how these three are woven. And we call this an imminent view of the Trinity because it's focusing on the essential nature what they are in themselves. And so this view of the Trinity emphasizes that all three are equally God All three are of mission to omnipotent you know etc etc By contrast the Bible and administers we focus more on the three ness of God because we emphasize much more the interactions between the members of the Godhead due to the mediation of Christ in the heavenly sanctuary and by focusing on the mediation of Christ you have this much more interactive between Christ and the father that focuses and the Tunis more OK he go outside of Avid to see me here little talk about the intercession of Christ a few acknowledge it but they don't do much with it and so the more active your intercessory type he one sanctuary type view the more demands this interaction of the Trinity and hence we focus more on the three know us and the roles they play and the roles they play is equal what we call the economic view of the Trinity and what I read in the Bible is mostly God coming to me in his roles and that's how I experience God is through the roles he plays in the creative order and this plan of salvation and the danger is is that I read this like the Latin fathers and I try to turn it into this and I think our anti trinitarians do some of that you read about economics and incarnation you extract relate it back into eternity in this not necessarily good Biblical license to do so. This move to some biblical issues. Typical be able to have tactics when I look around evangelical literature the proof text method to look for a text that mentions all three in the same passage I have some examples in a moment OK see right here it is one verse boom boom boom slam dunk OK or you might find two of the three in a passage and then like say Father and Son then we come over here and we say fine Father in spirit but there's a link between these two verses that allows us to use the two verses to link the three together so this would be classic tactics I see finally this is more my approach you find you find each one in the Bible individually but you find certain functions and attributes ascribed to each of them that they share and so if A is holy and B. is holy and C. is holy some kind of connection here right. Kind of a thing now. New Test versus Old Testament don't have time to deal with Old Testament today. If you don't have the New Testament finding members of the got hit in the Old Testament is a little trickier if there are text where it's there I think but it's more clearly there if you have the level of the light of the New Testament to. Shine on it OK and I admit that but. The Old Testament the New Testament authors felt that there were things written for us in the Old Testament that were just now being revealed says Peter and so I think we can use the New Testament to help us unlock some mysteries of the Old Testament since they're all inspired by the same Lord this way so I want to focus on New Testament I will say this much I have not really found any much of a divine Son concept in the Old Testament the closest one that comes to my mind is when it became is or says this this being that I didn't remember being in the furnace is like a son of the gods or possibly a Son of God depending in Elohim is it not because there's polytheism or is it Jewish monotheism So it's either the Son of God like Jewish or this is like a son of the gods as a pagan. But exactly what name because or means by that he just don't have this OK whereas the spirit's all over the Old Testament so that's one of the challenges we have right there right so we get our Trinity text more strongly from the New Testament and with that light we can pick up some hints in the Old Testament for example you don't you can't necessarily show three in the creation story but the fact that God says Let us make man in Our image there is some kind of plurality within God expressed by the US the text itself doesn't tell you whether it's two or three or four but you you have a foundation there that the New Testament three. Can add here with that way so here again these are some of the proof texts in the name of the Father Son and Holy Spirit one text slam dunk shared one thing I'll say a little more about that later. Revelation one if you accept the seven Spirits as symbol of the Holy Spirit any of greeting from the one who is was is to come Greetings from the seven Spirits and greetings from Christ. A triune greeting the baptism of Jesus is a favorite he of God in heaven Jesus in the water and the Holy Spirit like a dove in between three different locations three different beings. Etc I think you get this so I'm going to. Move on. The challenge with this is that it some text may not have been really meant as a trinitarian statement it's just kind of an incidental statement and we're trying to push on it a little bit in defense of that however incidental comments the security and slips can reveal things and since there is anough of these in the New Testament I think that there is a reasonable use but we need to be careful not to push it too hard this is why I prefer the more theological approach where we look at each member of the Godhead and their functions and what they're doing and what they're ascribed as being and start comparing the two I think that gives us a richer picture in the Bible. There are two things that make God God I'm an old bird watcher when I have a chance so I jokingly call myself a bird brain and. You know when you're birding you're looking for field marks right does it have wing bars or not or I stripe or how big or how small the wing shapes yet cetera et cetera we have these different field marks color of the beak so when I'm going through the Bible or life these are the two sealed marks that if I hit these two I know I found God field mark number one it's all in Isaiah especially being both Creator and be unmade and created and it's the uncreated especially here and so God as the created creator is held by Isaiah in contrast with the idol who is made by a craftsman How can this idol that's made to be a God so to worship anything that is made is idolatry and the second one is for knowledge in Isaiah the gods it's running nations don't know the future. But the God of Israel knows the future he knows the in from the beginning and he's the only one that does unique attribute of God So when we find a cure for knowledge in the unmade maker you know here in the presence of deity these deity this deity who is uncreated and four unknowns has five functions associated with him first of all deeds he gets worshipped right thirteen jewels Mr three in jewels messages worship you made the heavens and earth etc right. And I put these two text in here because this is where John bows down to the angel and he says don't do that only worship God right. And Peter with Cornelius an X. ten same thing. Were shipped. Number two for giving sin that's something God does and in the Matthew Mark and Luke story this is where they let the guy down through the roof and Jesus says Your sins are forgiven and the religious leaders they move that's blasphemy or do that's God's right so they recognize that being in a holy as a state of being a Holy One of Israel etc is a title of God self existence which is related to the unmade and eternal having no beginning no end now we have no trouble with the father's deity that's never been a problem I want to move to the son. Of course Johns has the Word was God but what does that mean he's called holy as God is called Holy Luke one forty five thirty five the angels answering Mary how you how can I have a child without knowing him in the Holy Spirit will come upon you power the most title overshadow you therefore the child be born it will be called what holy attribute of God Son of God Son of God because he's being fathered by the Holy Spirit and one white These words do not refer to any human being except the son of the infinite God says he's got it cast like the text in the incarnation of Christ as it makes himself as holy or the Holy One in the message I forget to which church now three seven is gonna be what around Sardis or so. Maybe Philadelphia help me out it when and. But then revelation fifteen in the song. To God God alone is holy. So how is Christ Holy if God alone is holy unless Christ has done God. Christ forgave sins we've already talked about that one right move on Christ his creator extensive data John one three nothing was made without him that was made so if Christ were created he would be the one thing that was made without him. But John says nothing that was made was made without him so he's got this is John's way of saying Christ is unmade he's uncreated divine attribute. Cautions one all things were made through him as the instrumentality but he preexists everything he has before all things pointing toward that eternity issue and the unmade issue and yet Paul says everything was created through God through Christ through God Wait a minute which one is it Hebrews one is prayer in my view the most powerful divinity of Christ chapter it's even better than John one. It opens up various and sundry ways God spoke through the OF OLD of the prophets but in these last days he's spoken through his son and then he starts to describe the Son and in this verse God created the world for through Christ it's like kolache ans one instrumental agency but then he goes on in verse three to say that Christ sustains the world that's in the divine function then he continues that Christ using the E.S.P. is the exact imprint of God's nature of his essential nature of the language here as I understand it the Greek word is character we get our word character from it and think of it like a typewriter character and most of us here are old enough to remember what a typewriter is. For those who have known it typewriter has this little hammer with the backwards letter on it and then when it hits the encryption it gives you the mirror image in the correct orientation on the paper right and so in Greek the character was the stamp that makes the image but it was also that mirror image made by the stamp you know like the hand in glove fit kind of a thing and so Christ is the mirror image of God's nature. Statement of divinity Now this is setting up in verse three we get a timing that's very important so he is the radiance of the glory of God the exact imprint of his nature upholds the universe by the word of his power all the stuff we just read now timing after what after what making poor if occasions for sin he did what where. What's this let's go back what's the making purification what event is that the cross was the sitting down. The ascension right after the resurrection after the cross so we get it set here that we're talking about Jesus after the cross after the ascension in heaven and now with this sitting down as he is being seated God says a bunch of things and Paul says look at what God says about the Sun that he does not say about angels and it's what God says about the sun that gets very interesting so there's four things he says to the Sun So the first thing he says is to the sun I'm skipping that for now and then he says things to the sun that are about the sun and the first one because he proves one five let me just go back real quick here five to twelve in the theology of Hebrews these are the things that God is saying to Christ and about Christ as he's being installed into his messianic kingship as the priest and King after the order of milk has attack me so these are the things God is saying at the Ascension as Christ his being installed as the milk has a deck and priest king. So Hebrews one six again when he brings his firstborn into the world he says Let all God's angels worship Him when He brings him self into the world is the key here is that the word for world and I got corrected by Felix Cortez at the seminary on this and I had to go do my homework the world here is not the cosmos I forget the exact word of it's along the line of all I could to mouse or something akin to that. This is used in the next chapter Chapter two in the ballpark of first five to seven where Christ is being brought into the world that's coming. To be its king and take it over and so this is not Christ coming into the world at the Incarnation This is Christ being brought into His kingdom in the heavenly world that he's going to bring to this earthly world at the second coming and so this is at the ascension not at the Incarnation and so of the connection to Chapter two around verse five six or seven. Oh I don't have exact memories but he had the same world there this is not the present world it's the world that's coming to us it's the eschatological world. And and I'm dependent on Felix some for showing me that one but the key is what happens to Christ in this passage. The angels are told to do what worship Him That's something that should only happen to God right only deity he's worshipped by angels at God's command and their member how the angel said don't worship me and Peter said don't worship me God commands the engines to worship Christ Z. commanding them to sin. I don't think if he's not commanding them to sin this shows deity of Christ he's worshiped. Likewise when Thomas bows down to Christ and says my lord and my God Christ response is very different from the angel that John isn't it he does nothing to resist it nothing to stop it if he's not God then he's blaspheming to receive this from Thomas. Likewise in Revelation five the twenty four elders of four living creatures worship the lamb right. He's worshipped and he receives it he has to be divine by the way many moons ago one of my first baptism so to speak my senior pastor got credit for it but I do little of Angeles to series as a young associate pastor we had a guy who was kind like you who was witnesses in his view of Christ and it was this worship study that broke through and helped him receive the full truth of who Christ was and we baptized him there in Babylon New York and. The only time I have called people out of Babylon by calling them into it but any rate. Second thing the father says to the son Hebrews one a bit of the son he says your throne O. know who father calls the Sun God is what forever divine attribute eternal with the right to scepter of her uprightness etc etc so crisis called God by the Father and God describes eternity to the son and this is a quote I hear it is of some forty five six to seven where the all the terms for God are Elohim. But clearly a prayer to the God of Israel so crisis this some two Israel's God is now Christ as Israel's God even more so in one ten he continues and you Lord laid the foundation of the earth in the beginning and the heavens are the work of your hands so the red is the creation theology right. But you will remain etc Your years have no windy turn ality But I want to come back to this you Lord laid the foundation of the earth because in this song this lord is he our way. And yet the author of Hebrews who I accept as Paul says this is what God the Father is saying to the son he saying to the son you yah way made the heavens and the earth the father calls the Son by the Sacred Name the son is yah way too so suddenly I have two beings who are young away and yet Deuteronomy says he always one human logic can't explain it very well. He folks John eight before Abraham was I am the Jews certainly got that he was referring to the I am of Exodus they wanted to stone Him for it and this is part of a larger New Testament pattern that I can't get into where Christ has repeatedly equated with the our way in the New Testament I will say this much however in the Old Testament. A little background here when you get to the sacred name in the Old Testament how does a good Jew What do they do when they hit that name he they never say the sacred name what are they substitute out or not what's that my lord what's the Greek for Lord Koreans all of the YA way names in the Old Testament when I go through my Bible works and look at the Septuagint Equant all those ya ways they translate with Curry else now don't forget it Kerio says Lord but it could also in the Old Testament Septuagint the Lords of the Philistines you don't that set are so any king or Lord but the point is because the sacred name happens so much in the Old Testament Curry Oh so in the Septuagint is by far and away most often used of God as a substitute for the sacred name so in that Messianic Jewish church when you said Jesus is curios that's basically saying Jesus is I don't I that's money middle interesting Ellen White the incarnate who she just put the sacred name and Jesus Himself is our biting of the I Am is our redeemer which I am. The Incarnate. More interestingly though the Jehovah is the name given to Christ to Isaiah passages to prove it she equates Jesus with the sacred name so the father applies to some of y'all way to the Sun We also have the statement of the eternity of the sun your years with out into its cetera in Revelation both the Father and Christ are Alpha and Omega the Beginning in the end used of God These verses Christ that verse also Christ is the first and the last but in Isaiah he always is first and last so Revelation one Christ is equating himself as the way of Isaiah forty one it's all over the place folks by the way a good number of years ago when I was down in Georgia with a major shaker of the end of the movement he had a big website and everything I bluntly asked him Do you believe the father preceded the son in existence he said Yes said I got a problem because if the father is Alpha and Omega but he preceded the son in existence then it best Christ can only be the beta and Omega the fact that they're both alpha neither one precedes the other in existence they're both first and last. And this is modeled by the statements of milk is that effectively saying Christ has neither beginning nor of days nor end of life a divine attribute likewise Christ is self existant like the father John five twenty six. So the key markers of divinity found in God the Father are scribe to Christ he got the list there and I want to keep moving and white just a couple of comments here on the self existence it was precisely this eternal begetting that guys like James White hated because they felt it made Christ dependent and God is not dependent God is independently exist I'm. And they quoted text like John's High the way the father is self-existent dependent on nobody so it is for the son. And Ellen White then follows her husband's theology in Christ is life original and borrowed Undy rived this is definitively disagreeable to the cradle for with the eternal begetting did oh another quote here and cetera. They felt that for Christ to be God he had to be fully self-existent and they felt that the cradle form of the Trinity diminished to Christ was and they were going to stand for that is that simple so it's safe to conclude that the New Testament presents Christ as fully God with the father he's Khojaly way this is why he used the word of God from the beginning he's the whole fullness of deity bodily etc The very stamp of God's nature who being in the form that is the nature of God He's equal with God. Tremendous evidence who Jesus it's so now we may see clearly two persons in the Godhead fathers this media was brought to you by audio first a website dedicated to spreading God's word through free sermon audio and much more if you would like to know more about audio verse or if you would like to listen to more sermons lead to visit W W W dot audio Verse dot org.


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