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Redemptive Discipline: Concept & Application- Part 1

Royce Snyman

Presenter

Royce Snyman

Ministerial Department Director and Coordinator of Evangelism for the Michigan Conference

Sponsor

Conference

Recorded

  • June 19, 2017
    8:00 AM
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Father in heaven I want to thank you for this opportunity we have to meet together today and to study this very important topic that affects our churches in a significant way I pray that your Holy Spirit will be in charge of what we do and that we will clearly see and understand the principle that the Word of God gives to us in the spirit of prophecy in relationship to working on behalf of people who are struggling with the problem the sin in their lives we thank you for it in Jesus name in our I welcome glad to have you here this afternoon this is the class on redemptive discipline I'm saying that mainly for me because the last class I had all these folders out already and it turned out that was not the right class to teach. Sorry I just got really busy and got in my head that I was teaching this class 2nd period instead of 3rd period so. I did that just to make sure you all here for example visible and write OK then you're in the right place and I'm in the right place that part's really good. I want to tell you a little bit about what we're going to be doing and the materials you have in your in your hands you have a noble clipless like this a folder by which you can keep the materials that I'll be giving you you don't have it yet or you know what they're right here and if somebody would just take 1 back to them that be great I could make you move but I'm a nice guy so I won't do that I only do that to videographers up there you can HAVE TO THE even if you want OK. That's very good all right now inside hear me tell you what's in here 1st of all on the left hand side is the notes for today the outline for today which is untitled the concept of redemptive discipline would be using it extensively today as part of what we're going to be doing behind it you will find an evaluation which if you're going to stay for the whole 5 days I would encourage you to hold off on that evaluation and so we get done and saw an appreciator than a 9 courage of a stay for the 5 days this class is not a 1 time shot we're building each day and dealing with the issues that that applied to redemptive discipline will share some of the basic concepts today and then talk especially tomorrow about more of the application of those principles and work on that from there behind that is some blank notebook paper that looks like this and it's just no paper that's a line and something you're able to use I have included today which something we're not going to refer to in the sense of it's not the major content of what we do but it is a sum handout of materials and by the way so you don't have to hope that you know that you can because the cameras here. As you set that down there and you're good and it's just you're just controlling what's happening with that OK I don't want to get tired of holding it that's why I'm saying it so off I handed this to you I went online and I look for some information out there in relationship to discipline I found and spiritual discipline redemptive discipline and I found some interesting articles here that came out the 1 that's here this 1 came out in the atmosphere of you. Know what the date is on the in a carriage what it was it's not showing up erode away maybe you'll see a man in a rape dance urn is the author of the Senate his title is is church discipline still needed I had Dan happens to be a personal friend of mine we went to school together and he's serving right now as coordinator of coordinator of evangelism in the Texas Conference and doing a wonderful job down there but he wrote this article here and I encourage you to read it it's not a very long 1 but it does help you to understand the value and the importance and the need for discipline in the church We'll talk about what kind and all of that as we go through this but also I found somewhat fascinating about some articles that come from non admin to sources because we think of a lot of Protestant churches especially as being liberal and they don't care about and what anybody does and so on and that's not globally true there are a lot of good Christians out there and I'm not going to them for my source of my theology but I did find some value in relationship and I just wanted you to understand that even in the 7th Day Adventist Church whereby there are some who have moved away from the idea of discipline in the church there are those who recognize not only the importance of it but the value of it and they the fact that it will help to build the church and. From the Church not damage the church of course doing it the right way and that's 1 of the articles that is here and so there are several of them Aaron on 1 of them is about discipleship really what I mean discipline really works it's by an individual who's article and material I will give to you later on in the week. That author is. Named Ken sand and he wrote a book called The Peacemaker and it's a really excellent book not just dealing with discipline in the church but dealing also with the with dealing with solving people's problems and interactive combat the goes on in Gerges from time to time and really he has some excellent material he's although he's not a sudden they have this but he's a Christian lawyer who has applied this in his own law practice and in his own church and helping people deal with conflict in the church and redemptive discipline and discipline in the church sometimes does deal with the issue of conflict and so it'll be a part of that as well so I just wanted you to be aware of the material it's in there and what it's there for now want to get us launching into our class for today in the share with you the scenario that's in your material as we're looking at the conflict at the issue of what discipline redemptive discipline is the concept there and then we'll eventually in the next 4 days be working towards application All right so you have your material and if you turn to the 1st section there you're going to find that there is a scenario and I'd like to read through that scenario with you right now and we're going to discuss it just for a couple of moments. Going to set a stage for us for our discussion so. Let's go through it I'm going to read it because of the microphone and I actually rather have somebody else reading it because we are taping this I want to make sure that that's an area gets recorded on here so by the way this this class material the basic foundational material was originally developed by elder Jay gala more and he shared with us as Pastor some years ago a lot of years ago while I was still past touring and that was a lot of years ago and I was able to say wait a minute that's just what our church needs and what a wonderful thing to have in terms of principles and implemented it in the church that I was pastoring at the time will talk more about that later on by he's given me permission to teach this class along with him I've done that before and also to teach it as part of my role as a ministerial director for the conference. So I've sharing some of the material that he developed and then I'm adding to it and giving you modesty gaited a modified materials along the way here's a scenario that I want you to think about for a moment you have a man in your church his name is Mr B. He is a gifted within doozie as tick leadership talent he's 1 of your elders and the general Sabbath school superintendent his wife is not a member of the church but does attend fairly often you receive a phone call from Mrs B. who tells you with reluctance that she has suspected her husband of being interested in another woman. She tells you that through a private investigator she has evidence he has been having an and in a better intimate affair with a woman at the local spa Alamy pause here for a moment I don't mean push the pause button but was what I just shared with you we in our church are not detectives All right you notice that it didn't say the head of the board sent out an investigator right this was a wife concerned about her husband she hired a private investigator she is not a member of the church and that private and get Vesta gator brought back evidence of how we are all there together we are not investigators and we're not detectives All right Mr B. shows no sign of vengeance but states that she I'm sorry Mrs B. He shows no sign of vengeance but states that she will appreciate whatever you can do to save their marriage and protect the good name of the church which she says she has come to respect because she's been attending church and doing so on a regular basis gotten acquainted with the people she's not made a commitment to being a 7 day ad and but she respects the church and she appreciates what the what the church stands for and she genuinely does not want the name of the church to come into disrepute. I guess I would be ill repute and as with any way you arrange a visit with Mr B. alone and upon arrival at the home Mr B. appears embarrassed and quiet after prayer you discuss with him the situation you have been informed about and ask him what you can do to help if it is true without any defensiveness he acknowledges that he has been intimate with another woman for some time and that he has been living with a heavy load of guilt he even appears relieved to talk with someone about it to your knowledge no other church members are aware of the situation Alamy ask this question as we get into this how many of you are elders in your local church. And any of you deacons or deaconesses in your local church. Any of you that haven't raised your hand so far members of the local church board a member of a local church board OK so I'm assuming that those who did not raise their hands do not currently have a leadership role in their church is that correct if I have stated that correctly please raise your hand all right good that wasn't going to be the invitation to leave that was just simply so I know my audience and with whom I am speaking All right so great that gives as is good to have a good mix I like having that it's not it's not a problem I just want to know what context you might be coming to this from now I know you all have your own journey in life and the kinds of things that you've experienced and you may have seen churches work through church discipline and so on but we want to talk about the biblical principles of discipleship that relate to discipline in the local church All right so let's talk about the situation for a little bit we are recording this so I preceded if you would project your voice so that we can hear you and and maybe pick it up on the on the on the recording devices that are are sharing with us I'm recording this to be able to use this as a training tool in later times for times I can be someplace in the past or wants to be able to use it in his church to train his church members so that's why I am doing it so all right here's Mr B. He's an elder in your church is also Sabbath school superintendent what would you do if you got a phone call like. Now I want you to think realistically and I'm not going to punishing punish you for quote having a wrong statement this is a chance for us to talk a little bit how would you honestly react to getting a phone call like this what would you think you might want to do 1st OK please. OK great as I what I heard here that what I was going to get back over here great you're all on the right track that's a great great direction here then what do you think you might do then then. That's because then your husband is an elder in the dirge rights are gay All right well all right let's have a discussion about that will we will I mean not right now but we will discuss that along the way any idea what you might do I mean honestly what would you do I. Know. I would rather. You want to meet. Somebody. Good point good point please. So I'm going to repeat what you said because you're a little farther back and I want to make sure the recording as you said you would like to suggest maybe be better go alone because that way you're not being the posse or whatever and making him feel that much more threatened OK Good please. OK. And that's a very practical application of what we're talking about because in we're speaking somewhat generically whether I go or not go with your male or female without wasn't really the discussion we're having but it's an important part of the discussion when we start applying this in a very specific case so if you are a man and this is a man who's got this issue and all certainly that's the context you want to be if you are a woman and you receive that phone call then you're in a little bit of a different situation and being able to know how to apply that and we're going to discuss that a little bit more I'm going to not try right now to give you all the answers I'm just trying to get to the surface the kinds of challenges we face what what Joe shared up here is part of the challenge that we all face I'm not sure I want to go alone because of the fact I don't know what I'm in for and I don't you know those are the kinds of questions and processes that come to our mind all I'm asking right now is wow are we thinking realistically practically and honestly in relationship to this that now the real question we have to ask ourselves is what's the Biblical approach to this what does jesus want to do what does Ellen White share with us is the process by which we should be working to seek to help people I do want you to keep this scenario in mind because we're going to come back to scenarios like it if not the exact scenario later on and see how we can apply what we've learned in our class to that scenario I'd like to move now to the next page and I'll go back to the screen for the rest of this part of the presentation we were now actually I want I'm going to take you to the next slide and then we're going to talk a little bit about what's here and I made the mistake of not reading my bible that was a big mistake I'm going to have to use and I can't do that because you're using it. Damn would you do me a favor. No actually I did bring my bottles right here sometimes I made a mistake and didn't realize I didn't. Thank you all for being willing to help me out taking bottles please and turn to Matthew 18 because this really is the foundation for what we want to share today thank you for your reference to it earlier and I know that you all understand Matthew 18 You've heard of it before and terms of basic material but I want to I want to really look through Matthew 18 today and it will be the major focus of what we are going to talk about to take your Bibles and open to Matthew Chapter 18 we're going to start with verse 1. And I know the recording is recording all of this and they may choose to cut out this little part here because they can an individual can read it on their own as they might choose to do but let's read it through if you've got your Bible on your cell phone or electronic device or you got the real deal in your in your hand let's read through Matthew 18 I'm going to start right up here and that's just work our way around and if you don't want to read just pass on to the next person we'll go back to the back rows and then work up to the front here Matthew 18 starting with worse 11 verse of the time. Guy. Right here and then across. OK. Next row. OK. They very back row. This. Now come on up here and. Show somebody. Now I know who the meat of the discipline quote process comes a little bit later but going to pause right there and let's ask ourselves some questions and let's answer those questions 1st of all according to gross 1 what are some problems or the question that causes problems in your you know local church like was going on here right now what's the what's the answer to that. Who is important who's who's the leader who's the greatest right why is that a problem vanity pride it's part of that root of sin we know that Satan that was his problem all along that say that that pride was in his heart that he wanted to be greatest I mean he wanted to be God That is the greatest and he used that tool all along has any rights a question or 2 by the way is right in your new notes there Question number 2 from worst as 1 do 3 who does this little child represent according to verse 3. Years. US me you who is Jesus talking to at this time. He's talking to his disciples isn't a he's talking about those that are walking with him and they're struggling with this problem of greatness or who's going to be the greatest and they're trying to work that through and so it's Unless you are converted and become as little children so the issue is with us many of the problems in our local church is that we haven't really we we get in conflict with each other we get in conflicts with with the ology we get in conflicts with whatever and we really haven't stopped to ask some of those basic questions am I doing what I'm doing out of a converted HAR And that's a place we need to be in our in our in our lives number 3 question comes from verse 4 What is the answer to friction in the church what is it humble yourself whoever humbles himself as a little child now again we're laying the foundation for the principles a concept of redemptive discipline and if we don't put it in the context that Jesus put it in we will miss out on what we need to know about the principles here no question I'm for coming from as what does it mean to receive such a child in my name or do you think that men. Know we tend to respond to children in a in a positive way. And do not always especially when they're being on ring not obedient talking when they shouldn't be talking running when they shouldn't be running. But still we tend to respond there whoever receives 1 little child like this in my name receives me in humility with a humble attitude toward those people again this is the context in which Jesus is discussing the ways that we interact with each other in the way we deal with problem behavior number 6 I'm sorry number 5 burst 6 How does 1 put stumbling Brock blocks in front of a little 1 any ideas how do you put stumbling blocks in front of someone I'm sorry. Treating them meanly. And by being bossy. Saying 1 thing you're doing another good. Hour OK no sympathy no willing to connect absolutely others how do you put stumbling blocks from the heap thinking about that how serious are the consequences of such behavior I'm sorry. Absolutely both is the case then that and that is the part we must not miss salvation for all the individuals that are involved in this process is at stake and Jesus is trying to help us to understand what that means for you and for me there is a lot at stake here. The truth is this is not an easy class to have a discussion in in the sense that this is a very sensitive area it's so sensitive that the churches for the most part have moved away from the whole concept of discipline they don't want to talk about they don't want to even deal with it and the tragic part of that is salvation is at stake and. Jesus came here he didn't ignore the fact that salvation was at stake and he didn't ignore the fact that there were problems when it came to the Pharisees he dealt with the Pharisees with the sin that they had with a woman called caught in adultery he dealt with a woman with a soon as that she had with the lepers she he dealt with the problems that their God came down here as the savior Jesus came down here in order to be able to redeem us he didn't ignore our problems because he knew that salvation was a state but the devil has managed to get into us and I'm speaking generically I don't mean you. Well maybe I do but me do oh yes he gets into us in our churches and he begins to pull us away from the issue of dealing with these problems and instead of our churches being able to become strong our church is getting weaker and weaker and weaker as you will discover when you read those those supplemental articles that I gave you to read and that's why we need this in order to be able to strengthen the church number 7 comes from verse 7 what 2 groups are warned of judgment to come for producing stumbling blocks what does Jesus say in verse 7 woad to the world because of advances fourpence as most come but whoa to. So offenses are damaging to all involved we'll talk a little bit more about this. In a few moments Question Number 8 comes of verses $8.00 and $9.00 what is better to do than to become a stumbling block. Speak loudly. But in other words we have to take it so seriously that we're willing to realize there might be some pain involved Jesus doesn't tell us to cut our fingers off or our hands off or pluck our eyes out he's using this by way of helping us to understand what the issues are and how serious this is and that it may involve some challenge to us it might involve talking to that person and even being threatened by that person it could be there it may be missed being misunderstood it may be all of those things so there are some challenges are we stopped at verse 9 let's continue there I think we'll start with Pam or Dan Dan start with 1st and would you. And me. All right but. It would stop there nurse or 2 or for a moment let's take a look at what we're talking about here and question number 9 it says who is constantly watching over the little 1. Heaven cares right. God cares about what's going on and means that anybody and everybody is being watched over by heaven and he's helping us to understand that that's the context in which we want to apply the principles we're looking at Question 10 verses 11 to 14 who is the 1 lost sheep according to this context who is the last. Center who is that all right it's talking about all of us but we're also wanting to put in the context here that that when we come to the Lord Jesus we have a responsibility to be caring about those who have not yet come to Jesus it's interesting you're wearing that shirt that says lost on it you know that's I got to I got to say that seems to fit with what we're talking about here a little bit all right I got to keep going all right Question 11 What kind of efforts to find the lost are expected by our Heavenly Father what is expected whatever it takes Yeah go out and find them don't leave them out there we are so afraid and I'm telling you I understand what that's like I happen to be a human being just like you and I don't like confrontation or anything that smells like confrontation and sometimes when it comes to these kinds of situations it is feels like a confrontation and feels like. You know I'm risking my friendship but there are times when they have that I met I am because there's something more at stake here and God says he expects us to go out and find those lost sheep understanding that they are lost and they're not all wearing a T. shirt that says lost on it. Sometimes they are lost and they simply don't know oh well. From. How valuable was that person to Jesus and that's what Jesus is trying to illustrate for isn't it. That's the question we need to ask exactly right all right let's go on with verse 15 whatever we left all. Over. The. 1 or 2 more. Multitude would be when. He. Sees. An extra. Line. So in a sense now we're getting to. The heart of the issue related to the process of redemptive discipline following the council that Jesus gave But again setting it in the context of what he shared from the beginning treating people as individuals who are like little children who need to be treated carefully recognizing that they are like. Sheep that are lost that need to be cared for so question over 12 from verse if seen in the light of the parable of the 1 last sheep what does go and reprove him suggests OK and pointing out is error but isn't in for but for what reason or repentance because yes because. It aright I want you all to turn and look at this what's your name Jerry when you all look at Jerry for a moment and read what it says on a search because they're lost exactly right. Sorry Jerry I can't help it get on uses I don't always get illustration quite like that to be able to use our rights because they're lost the issue is the correction is in the context of someone that's lost and if you don't correct them in their last news there isn't a dot when you have a sheep that's lost as wandering out there and they can't find their way back they're going to die a wild animal is going to come and get them they're going to die of starvation whatever you've all heard the stories of people who are driving out in the mountains somewhere like the family did in Oregon that was driving. Headed toward the coast and unfortunately took a wrong turn and got on a road that led them out a way where they got stuck in snow and they were they were lost and except for the fact that people were looking for them they were all have died but the husband didn't die and over the period of time because they were lost last nurse is not a state you and I want anybody to be and in ourselves or anybody else that we care about and God wants us to care about them Question 13 verse 16 of the 1 lost sheep does not want to come home what should be done this verse 16 said or OK Another words we can't force them correct but we do want to do every thing we can as as Pam said earlier we want to reach out to them and and in all the ways we can whatever it takes to be able to help them in this case we're going to go out and take somebody else along with to try to help them understand the state of last night's question 14 what 3 steps are taken by the church what are they but the number 1. First going you're all Number 2 OK Take somebody with you number 3 take some OK take other church members or speaking more generally you take it to the church or Right now you're involving the church because they are individuals have not heard and this is the counsel the Jesus gives you know what I'm really thankful for Jesus. I am telling you I might not do this very well of the 1 for Jews if he wasn't helping me with this process I could get it all mixed up I could do it all wrong and there are challenges when I follow his counsel because I'm dealing with real human beings. But I know that I'm following the counsel of the very best the savior of the world when I follow these steps question 15 done properly in the fear of the Lord and then with the compassion of the Savior How does Heaven view such action that's coming from verses 18 to 20 How does Heaven view this action. And he's with us he's part of this and he's helping us to understand that he is going to to recognize that what we have done is supported of heaven Right right exactly. That's exactly right we want haven't supported only we want to do it in the right way and that is the context here now the last verses which we're not going to take the time to read today is that parable of the unforgiving servant and the context again is Jesus is talking about the need of people and there are times when people need to be forgiven they get forgiven and they won't forgive anybody else that's not good either right and there are some very practical lessons that we could list here involved in relationship to do redemptive discipline I'll let you do that on your own but I want to keep moving because I can tell I'm going to run out of time really quickly keep moving so let's move on and you can follow along in the context of your materials as well I want to start applying these principles that we've been talking about in reading through the Scripture the 1st thing I want to talk to you about is that there are different kinds of discipline. There is a difference between ostrich discipline judge mental discipline and redemptive discipline So what do you think ostrich discipline is like what are ostriches known for. Ads for a ride bearing their head down in the sand and what does that mean to us in this context what kind of discipline is that it has none. Of it just you're just looking away you're just ignoring it is ostrich discipline supported in Matthew Chapter 18 I don't see anywhere there where that method of discipline is alkaline at all and yet which method of discipline is most often used in the local church today the ostrich method a method of discipline which really is no discipline at all as someone pointed out it's nothing it's got no value to that human being it's not strengthening strength in the church but it seems good to us because I don't have to go out and confront that person there's no pain in my life there's no challenge here really is there really no pain in my life what's happening in that person's life what's happening in that local church what happens when the issue that needs to be addressed is spilling over into the lives of other people in the church and that issue is being ignored is it really not putting pain in my life I'll tell you what I've seen what happens when these kinds of things are not addressed and when they are allowed to fester and linger it's not long before that church is decimated. I can tell you about churches in Michigan that have almost nobody attending them anymore because issues were not addressed when they should have been addressed and I'm not talking about theological issues I'm talking about interpersonal issues where people couldn't get along with each other and began to divide the church over those kinds of issues. And the so ostrich we get that 1 what's the next 1 judge a metal discipline What's that. Judgement this let's take care of this guy he needs to be punished he need to be taken care I'm sorry yes stoning OK We're OK we need to deal with this is Judge Mental and it's we're going to deal with that person and take care of them and and terms of embarrassing them or whatever today we're going to deal with this problem judge mental Jesus's judge you know man right now the challenge comes for us is that there's another 1 it's called Re D.M. to discipline what is the goal of read them to discipline. You're a store to do what was being pointed out here you what was Jesus trying to illustrate he was trying to illustrate the need for dealing with a problem no ostrich here dealing with the problem in terms of who are helping them understand the danger and the danger is judgments that's the danger but that doesn't mean then being judge mental To that end in regard to that individual Now here's where you know I think we all get the ostrich 1 in spite of the fact we all understand and we all agreed it's the most common we all agree that it's not supported in the Bible. And so we're I think we're all going to be able to say all right we're not going to deal with ostrich discipline in our church we're going to reject that but there are times when we get to the judge mental and the redemptive and we're having a hard time sorting those 2 out what are those 2 really in practical application because we really do want to restore We do want to redeem we do want that to be accomplished but how do we do that without falling into the judge mental trap or doing that's part of the question that we need to deal with 1 of the things I want to keep in mind here is that God is responsible for the legal consequences the shirts his work is to be redemptive while I want you to keep that in mind but I don't want you because if you're like my mind I'm starting to draw some conclusions right now in that statement I'm saying OK legal counsel aisle take care of the legal consequences so we can be an ostrich and ignore that because we want to name the person and we want them a church we think that attended the church is redemption what we already said that no we're not sure that's the case so how do we now begin to apply all of us are right in your notes you have some materials there and I want to apply this to this I think it's in your notes that. You know what we're doing OK yeah absolutely let's talk about some of the similarities here to finish 545 right thank you. Thank you very much appreciate that our IT for the 30 months or I will do it. We want to apply Matthew 18 now in relationship to how these things were what are some of the similarities and the differences between judgment will and redemptive discipline 1st of all both are dealing with guilt and sin yes redemptive discipline cannot ignore guilt and cannot ignore sin if I'm dealing with Mr B. I can't ignore the fact that he's having a relationship with a woman that's not his wife I can't ignore that yes right I mean even the world recognizes the problem with that and the challenge with that most of the world. Thank you that's true all right both must take decisive steps judge mental is going to take decisive steps because judgment must be served this must be taken care of we have caught him we must arrest him we must now deal with him we throw him in jail we put him through a trial and we deal with it a court that's Judge Mental it's dealing with decisive steps there's nothing in Matthew 18 that says redemptive has no steps that is not decisive in what it does it has an intentional purpose that it has in terms of those steps but if they are decisive and they are intentional here's where this gets tricky both of them can be viewed as Punch M.R.A. tell me why that's a true statement. OK you can go about of the wrong way yes. Absolutely. So exactly you're dealing with you're dealing with the person who's doing it might do it in an incorrect a way and might be having a punishing attitude towards it and then individual receiving it might also have the same response in terms of thinking wait a minute I don't see the redemption here at all I want to be part of this church and I want to be able to go on and all and your telling me that what I'm doing is wrong and this feels like punishing if you like you're punishing me you you're telling me I have to do those or I have to stop that or I have to whatever it feels like punishing so goes to kind of connect with each other don't they they cross over don't. So when we begin to recognize that the standard is there not stablished by us but established by God when we're dealing with God's standard then we recognize why this can be a challenge but shouldn't be both are dealing with the same standard and that's why it can feel that way when we're working through that thank you very very good point both have eternal consequences do they. So if I'm coming at it with in the wrong way in a judge mental way and not a redemptive way I'm still dealing with the eternal consequences and I I have to recognize I could do it in such a way that I could push that person farther and farther away from God The challenge of course is that when I'm trying to deal with an in an redemptive way it may feel to that person like punishment and like they're being poorest farther and farther away from God and you know I. And we may want to come back to this later on but. I think it was last week I was reading maybe the week before as reading about a 7th Day Adventist pastor who walked away from her congregation because the fact that she felt that she was being dishonest to God and to the congregation by not admitting that she was bisexual and that she needed to be free and be able to to be what she was and to be able to and saying ah there are eternal consequences of these things and people are getting some of these things all mixed up and confused in this world and these challenges are significant they have eternal consequences in them and people are coming away with their own conclusions when they walk away from the standard or interpret the standard in a way that says a person can be whatever they think they are or or they should be let's talk about some of the differences especially in relationship to redemptive discipline redemptive discipline has some significant differences into it. Tomorrow we'll get in depth into applying these principles and how to apply them in the local church how to set up a structure in your local church to be able to really begin to apply these principles because the truth of the matter is the way we tend to operate tends to lean in on the judge mental side and I'm pointing here both with these differences here but doesn't tend to include the redemptive discipline process redemption is seeking to restore judge mental typically is not seeking to restore it's to punish is to stop the action it's to deal with this and bring judgment upon that person that's why they say you know a church might have what sometimes called a church trial now we don't typically use that church that word in the 7th Day Adventist Church I don't like it it's not redemptive sounding and there are churches that did that if you've ever read any of the little bit of Alan White's story or any part of it or seen the latest video on tell the world and all that remember when Ellen White's family was taken in a church trial the Methodist Church and they were dismissed from the church because they were following well in Miller that was that church trial and some churches use that term and have that especially in the past and they may have new terms day the goal is restoration that is the purpose of bringing this person back to saving them in terms of recognizing their losses and moving away from that it's pleading with 1 before they go too far I remember a pastor. He's coming to me and he's telling me about an experience that he's got going Ami's East talking to me right now while this is an ongoing situation with members in his church and these individuals are are are 11 individuals leaving their spouse and going off with another individual in the church and he's pleading with them he's trying to convince them not to do this he's even literally chasing them in his car trying to get them to stop and they are so resistant to this but he's so determined he wants to save them why because he's trying to keep them from going to far the attitude is to say not to dispense an eye for an eye Jesus when he talk about an eye for an eye when the Old Testament talks of when Jesus again talking about an eye for an eye it wasn't just to bring about the judge mental consequences it was in order to have an attitude to save but the Jews by the time they got to the time of Jesus had an attitude toward redemption and salvation and dealing with problems as I for I am going to he did that to me I'm going to do it to him that's an eye for an eye that the attitude is to save a person to redeem that person the pain a process can often stop of guilty turns to re and sins I hear a couple of really important clues to redemptive discipline something that I learned from the gallon more and and he learned from the Lord and I'm so grateful that the Lord uses instruments to teach us. But I'm going to tell you that in my early ministry I didn't really understand truly the principles of redemptive discipline I did understand and I learned in school about the principle of Judge Mental discipline now the teachers that were teaching me weren't trying to teach me to be Judge Mental they were trying to teach me the principles of discipline and the need that the local church has but there were a couple of ingredients that are right me and my personal human nature wasn't getting and that was those principles that help us to understand we're not always trying to say that I can catch somebody so that I can punish them and that's an important part of this that we will be looking at a little bit more in the days ahead redemptive discipline is a church with his arms always open to say always wanting to be able to read well come a person and doing everything they can whatever it takes to redeem that person now you know what some people don't want to be redeemed in you know that I mean honestly some people don't want to be redeemed now sometimes I think 1 of the challenges that we face and we've got to work through in the days ahead is sometimes people think they want to be redeemed but I think that redemption is not what Jesus has redemption. And there is a difference we have to work with that of the churches always trying to reach that person has their arms open wide the church is satisfied the church is satisfied satisfied when a person is restored. This is redemptive discipline the goal is restoration and the church is satisfied when a person is restored Now here's the here's the part I hope that you're beginning to put this together if a person his restore will do they also have to be honest and I want you to answer that question I want you to think about it as we move ahead are I who is being redeemed we think of the context of the lost sheep who is who is being redeemed it is the sheep that is what OK The consideration is why God has sheep that's lost you now with all due respect sheep I'm a shepherd and right now you're in the fold I'm OK with you being in the fault but I've got a lost sheep bad don't leave us alone bad bad all day you know take care I'm a bad bet now you know what I'm illustrating here isn't it sometimes where in your pastor or your elders in your jerks want to spend their energy trying to reach out to the last and only put you not taking care of me you're in the fall Ellen White specifically addresses that issue with us that's not what this class is about but I just wanted to put that in here because it fits in to this connection the 2nd current consideration is the redemption of the name of Jesus what does that mean somebody tell me what does that mean. OK. OK all right and how does that fit into the context of redemptive discipline you're on the right track you go on. Exactly. Jesus name is redeemed when a person is say it is a Jesus name re deemed when a person is punished. Think on that for a moment but the challenge that we have is that we must recognize that our actions reflect on the name of Jesus yes or no if I go rob a bank and my name appears in the newspaper and I'm the pastor or the head elder or whatever what does that do so the name of Jesus today when you see the Muslim world and how the Muslim world Aris does not respect Christians it doesn't respect them because it looks like Christians and says wait a minute you're not like Christ at all the way you behave is not what I say Christ that's why we don't like you that reflects on the name of Jesus doesn't it and it happens the same way in our communities I've had people as a pastor call me and say hey you know that 1 of your church remembers this is what they did or this is what they do or you know that reflects on the church and reflects on Jesus and that's the next part prob 3rd consideration is the redemption of the injured church Jesus is the primary issue here. Saving that person is the primary issue but along the way the church is being affected by that as well there are some really nasty sins out there today 1 of the kinds that I really hate to hear about is when somebody has been molesting children in the local church or. And that gets out in the public it gets into the Internet it gets into the news today the media they just slow warm all over that stuff and they love to be able to put next to it that this person was of such and such a Baptist church or such and such Catholic Church or such and such 7th Day Adventist Church because they know the devil knows what that does the 4th consideration is the injured community. Using the example of what I just used is the community injured by these kinds of problems army. Absolutely and Mr B.'s case especially being affected there and whether it were dealing with a child abuse type situation I'm in Lansing right now I live just off of college you know or college leads to these to Michigan State University you know what's going on on the campus of miss a Michigan State University not so much on their you know what is 1 of the doctors there there was coaching or were part of the whatever I mean does that affect the community yes it affects the community when all these children are being affected all these children you don't know what I'm talking about M.S. you had this big scandal that's still going on doctor whatever is name who was the doctor for these athletes gymnastic team and all of that and how he was involved with these kids and all of now is coming out and does it affect the affects them it affects the families it affects the community it affects Michigan State University gives everybody a bad name what is the Church same thing in. Same kind of thing happening so the 4th consideration is consider the community why you see do we need to take seriously this inch issue of redemptive discipline because the impact is for whole and it is something that must be addressed but again with the purpose of leading people to Christ our I'm going to go through a process here it's in your notes here we're to come back to this tomorrow but I'm going to go through it fairly quickly to be able to outline a little bit of this because I'm getting away from me now I thought I had plenty of time and all of a sudden I don't have it anymore 1st of all the true concept of redemptive discipline equals am I my brother's keeper yes or no yes in relationship to a qualified yes lovingly confronting a person with sinful behavior yes I'm my brother's keeper it's my responsibility Joe's been robbing banks I have to help Joe because I care about Joe Yemen robbing banks say. All right 2nd yes using appeals of the church to return yes the church is using its appeals its approach to be able to reach out to that person with a goal of bringing them back yes they're my brother yes they are my sister I am my brother's keeper I'm my sister's keeper I have the responsibility know when it means endeavoring to force the conscience by any means so that's when by any means necessary is not totally accurate I will do everything I can to save a person but I have to leave the decision in the hands of that individual Matthew 18 rightly understood the equals a series of appeals and they become more earnest and more public. Do in order to be able to illustrate what it is that needs to happen there I'll give you an illustration from my own experience of how this works and why it works but it starts with a serious individual appeal and develops more from there and tell it becomes clear that the guilty chooses to be outside of the flock and can't be part of the flock you can't be part of the flock if you are not walking with the flock when a person is going off on a total different direction I will say this that dear young lady who said I've got to be honest with who I'm am and stead of turning that problem over to Jesus but being honest and walking away she was already walking away from Jesus she had already walked away from Jesus she'd already taken that step she was being honest with it and that is an appropriate thing to do the process the 1st step is a private visit not just necessarily limited to only 1 visit sometimes we think that we can only do it once and if we only do it once I mean if we do it once we've fulfilled our responsibility that may or may not be true but if the person is responding I may want to go back more than once yes. And if I can keep it contained that's a key word here if I can keep this contained in redemptive process is greatly enhanced We'll talk about that more later but a cover a multitude of sins by a private visitation it means sometimes it's impossible to keep things private we know that there may be wider damage to consider we have to work through that whole process the 2nd step is to take responsible people with us a goal there is to be able to use combined influence to be strong that will be strong enough in helping that individual realize that this really is serious and now they need to take a stand for moving away from that problem the 3rd step is the influence of the entire church in a last effort to redeem it be able to bring them back and the efforts of all 3 steps are rebuffed that's when things get to be challenging and we need to talk about that at some point the church should be removed as an individual from membership and we want to talk about the steps that lead up to that process and the kind of things happening I'm just outlining general process and how that goes this is not a judge mental process it's a dream to process the church or to move the individual but the hope always is that the absence of intimate fellowship leads that person to want to be back in the church and to return to the fold again to remove from friend membership does not mean to treat them with this respect it means to treat them like we might treat a Gentile and that is we want to win Gentiles right we do health classes and outreach classes because we want to become their friends we want to win them we want them to be influenced by kind and caring people we shouldn't start doing that with a person stop doing that with a person who is airing we should be just as anxious that the air. Herds don't to restore don't stop they should resemble efforts for unbelievers and the relationship is no longer that of a family but of a family with a non family member trying to win them back who should be involved the Scriptures clear the whole body the whole family needs to be involved in this process the entire church should be constantly seeking to prevent a loss catch that I'm almost going by a too quickly but it should be that the church is highest only working to prevent a loss by setting up a process and a structure that is able to deal with these things that it doesn't only become well we've got a problem in the church got to have a church trial nobody set up a process nobody work through it it need to be needs to be started with a pastor needs to be. Worked with with the elders the elders need to be working in connecting with people and this is not something the pastor can do alone the elders must be deeply involved in this and the church needs to be involved with this in an appropriate way the shepherding the flock is taking place here and we are coaching the pastors and the elders are coaching the process of redemptive discipline in the church because there are some church members who just love the judge mental process they just love to see that suffering center you know taken care of and dealt with there but they don't want to put any energy or any pain into saving that person or caring about that person and Jesus is trying to teach us something different repent of the preventive work includes regular spiritual visits by elders being able to understand when a problem is a problem before it becomes a real problem we don't want to disfellowship somebody because they're working on Sabbath. We want to help them to know that working on Sabbath is not the right thing to do according to the commandments of God that happens here in those spiritual visits regular elders meetings where rescue plans are made some churches don't have elders meetings they don't meet together and if your passer is not having that and you can't get them to do a come say may because that's where the war Creel A gets done in that local church it needs to happen on a regular basis an atmosphere of steadfast love needs to be generated in that local church and he's a B. true biblical teaching and preaching there needs to be the truth taught from the Word of God so that people in the church understand what sin is not that they might be condemned but that they might haue void it they might be able to turn away from it that's why as we see the sins of this age coming to fruition and being generated so much we want those sins to be identified because those sins will lead to eternal death for people it's really a reality for people we also need to be a part of every preventive process is educating members in the principles of Matthew 18 so that they know how to individually deal with problems that they might encounter and so that when the church is dealing with that they ALL the whole family knows that this is a family process of caring about the needs of people and the challenges of their place well that brings us the end of our session today question didn't say that in. Yeah and that's the sad part about it that's because Matthew 18 is not being taught and not being applied by the church members and and that's why what we talk about in the days ahead is so absolutely critical that the church is able to do the teaching that's needed to be done and to share the principles that will help people to say wait a minute this may seem difficult but it really is the right thing to do and and it's not that hard if we all do it and we realize we're doing it out of love saw a really good point really appreciate this. So I didn't. See part of the problem is that we haven't recognized when the Matthew 18 principles are being violated we're usually thinking of the guilty person you know the person who quote offended that person or whatever we haven't stopped to really think about the person who put it on Facebook and stead of going and talking to that person. So that's part of our journey OK 1 last comment and I got to have a closing for. You. I think Zachary where we're going and we're going talk about that in detail thank you very much great place and we should all be responsible even if we're not the older of the day you can write and take care of that thank you so much let's have a closing for. Pavane Evan thank you for being with us in our discussion today and we pray that as we talk more about redemptive discipline that you will really help us to apply these principles in a very practical way it will understand the importance and how critical they are to the future of the church and also to the attorney of all of the church members including those who might be offending and might be sinning against you just as we all have been sinners we have to learn and grow and we need to learn to grow together upright as your bless us as we go our way today and thank you for you all that we get to learn here at Camp Meeting your Holy Spirit teach us all in Jesus name in the. 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