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Redemptive Discipline: Concept & Application- Part 3

Royce Snyman


Royce Snyman

Ministerial Department Director and Coordinator of Evangelism for the Michigan Conference



  • June 19, 2017
    10:00 AM
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Loving Father in heaven how grateful we are for your love care and we know that in this world there is sin and in the church there are sinful people and we all struggle against the enemy and in some cases the enemy gets control of people and that can turn around and become very detrimental to your church so we're talking here about what we can do and steps that we can take in order to be able to allow your spirit to be working in our churches again as he would desire to we want to be faithful in our duties especially as leaders we pray that today your Holy Spirit will guide our discussion in Jesus' name. All right I want to make sure you have the class materials and I do have materials from the past as well as from the tools from the president. Now the Deacon is class was that 930 this morning and the next 1 will be at 9 30 tomorrow morning OK sorry I know it's confusing even I've been confused so and I teach the class so. All right anybody need Part 3 why we just handed out. Here's today's part. All right we're going to get started here and take on now let me let me say something at this point in the week you're going to begin to notice a pattern What is the pattern Joe you're smiling. OK And that pattern is there's some repetition and what we're doing and I want you to understand that this is a biblical principle. This whole principle is repeated and in a large repeat in a large I don't claim to be a prophet by any means that if a god can use that as a way for us to learn and develop the tools in the skills that he wants us to learn I believe it's 1 that we can do to not take a certain risk in that and that that risk is that you might get say wait a minute I'm I'm kind of repeating here but you are repeating but we're also enlarging as we go and dealing with different aspects of these problems that come up for example tomorrow we're going to be talking about handling conflict because as we said yesterday as we'll talk today when you get into the situation in depth you will get into conflict when you start to get situations like what we talked about in the in yesterday and then we will talk about today these kinds of experiences as they begin to develop it's interesting to go to talk to people who are walking down a simple path and they've got to make a decision the decision I have to make is is the path I'm walking the right 1 or the wrong 1. If they are convinced it's the wrong 1 then the journey can take a certain direction. But if they're convinced it's the right 1 even though we know it's the wrong 1 because the Bible makes it abundantly clear it's the wrong 1 you now have a conflict and that person has a conflict because that person a decided is the right road to go down and that's the 1 they intend to walk and now you've got to get into conflict with them convincing them that what they think is right is actually wrong and only the Spirit of God can do that but when people do are determined to do that it's going to bring about some kind of conflict eventually that's just reality that's where it's going to be so today we're going to take another step forward in the concept of a redemptive discipline I'm not going to break you into groups today we'll just talk for a few moments about this same scenario but we're going to twist that scenario a little bit because people are all different how many of you come from a church of 50 members or less that the members All right how many of you come from a church 50 to 100 members 5200 how many of you come from a church larger than a 100 members OK All right let me back down that for a moment 102300. 302700 OK All right I think I'm getting this scope of the land and the I know some of you I know where we're going all right. So you see that there's a broad spectrum here all all the way from churches under 50 to over 300 members are represented here. I don't care how small your church is you're going to run into this problem somewhere along the line on unless something's going on in your church that would surprise me but I like to be surprised so that's OK it's not a problem happy to happy to be surprised. In what will regard. That I can't explain either the fact that churches are made up of human beings and human beings that are wanting to follow the direction that the Lord has outlined are 1 thing but there are sometimes those who are choosing to go a different direction and let me tell you 1 of the challenges we face today is there's a broad spectrum of what people think of 7 bad I believe there's a very narrow spectrum of what God expects of us out of the end but there's a broad spectrum of what people think the 7 they have in this church is and what it's like and what to expect from them and as a consequence there are the title these these labels that are use of conservative and and liberal and whatever people attach to it where you and I want to be simply faithful we want to be faithful to doing what the Lord Jesus is asked to do. And 1 of the challenges that is people today are wrestling with these things you know let me. Let's try to put everything on the table so we can begin to understand that there was a day when you and I would not even be having some of the conversations that that in the last year or 2 were having to face would we ever had a discussion and God loves everybody right in love everybody died for everybody but God does not love everybody's sin and He holds sinners responsible for the decisions they made. God loves those who are caught up in the L.G.B. you whatever whirl it seems like every day I wake up they've added another letter to that list. And the whole homosexual agenda and bisexual agenda and all the other elements all those elements are out there today that you know when I would grow up and school yeah you heard about this in a derogatory way but you never heard about it being a direct issue in relationship to the church but today you and I are finding that it is directly impacting the church it's affecting our universities it's affecting our young people in a very real way young people today you know you and I grew up in a day when society looked negatively on on on certain things in the world but just as in Sodom and Gomorra over a period of time society began to agree to those things and that's exactly what's happened in the world today the world now accepted these things and we have young people that have grown up in the same moral and now instead of these young people saying well this is what the Bible teaches they are struggling with what people were telling them science is saying and all of that and sin is no longer sin according to the Bible because everybody is made this way and we can't do anything about it so they say the young people grow up they're trying to wrestle with this and if the Bible is not a poco point of their lives in their study and they're getting their information out of science or society they're losing the perspective of what God wants and that creates problems for us in the juror why would there be any difference in the 7th day of his church only because not everybody is choosing to stay faithful to the Word of God that's a challenge we have please. Now this is a hypothetical situation correct in other words it doesn't really exist in any of our churches like that right. Right let me answer your question in this way here's what I want to do today to give you a little bit of an idea we're going to repeat in a large I'm going to spend less time repeating and more time enlarging what I want to do in that enlarging process is I want to room move move from the hypothetical to the real I want to deal with the kinds of challenges that you're facing in your church in the real world today and how we as Christians need to be able to address some of those specific ones and so that's where I'm going today and tomorrow and I've got some tools that we're going to use in order to help us with that all right so let's say let's go with this. We help. We hope and God doesn't want to be and that's why we're having this class because that's what God wants to do sticky but from being that way. Absolutely and you know the class that are any of you in my previous class I you know if I can keep track of everybody in that class we're talking about preparation for the Final Crisis in that in that scenario the kinds of things that we're seeing and what the head of a my discussion tomorrow is on the shaking and what the church is about to experience was just in front of the church is going to take your breath away. Because the devil is working hard and the Lord is fighting against him and there is a great controversy going on you never heard that term before. The only difference is it's getting more and more real and it's no longer just a book it's a reality that you and I are living and all the things that were outlined there are showing up in our in our churches in showing up in our lives and showing up in our world and it's a real part of that OK I'm going to go to our project here it's a small Graca group project number 2 and that's mainly because on the 1st time we didn't do that a small group the 1st time and we're going to we're going to look at it again but we're going to do it I already said we do it as a group here I'm not going to go through all the details because you know what. You already got those details pretty well memorized where are the instructions are here it's a hypothetical situation there's a mystery in Mrs B. she's not an she's not an Adventist he's a leader in the church but I want you to look at those steps and we're going to look at the steps that are already taken and this is a modification on that and I just want to get your mind again thinking about what happens in people's lives before we apply some of these principles in our class today the steps already taken of this you arrange a visit with Mr B. alone Upon arrival at the home Mr B. appeared barest and quiet after prayer you discussed with him a situation you've been informed about and asked him what you could do to help him who is true sounding familiar isn't without any defensiveness acknowledge that he been intimate with another woman who sometime and the middle living with a heavy load of guilt even appeared relieved to talk about it you had no knowledge of any other church members who where the situation after discussion he agreed to break off the relationship and seek counseling from him and for him and his wife which he agreed to he indicated he needed 1 month to work out the details after prayer you left that after a month Mrs B. Mr B.'s wife called you again and told you that her husband and his promise and she believed the illicit relationship was continuing we were here at this point yesterday as well you arrange a visit Sorry about the spelling they arrange a visit with Mr B. alone with you and 2 of the other elders upon arrival at the home Mr B. appears strangely withdrawn after prayer you discussed with him the situation and asked him what you could do to help almost immediately he begins to lash out at his wife and you for bringing on someone else from the church he defends his conduct and tells you that you don't know his wife he jumps the gun and boldly states that he will not voluntary resign because he does not believe it is all that bad all right that's the scenario that we left off with yesterday remember that's why we we play that. Scenario back and you came up with some ideas and some direction but what we were looking for yesterday was what is the next step in relationship to what we do and 1 of the things that we were working on yesterday was the could there be another step before taking it to the church board and to the church and business and so what we did is we alkaline for you a process by which the church could work with a board of elders and not have to confront this in an open way yet because there might still be some dynamics you want to work with an individual as long as you can see the possibility of change and a willingness in that individual's life and heart to make a change and so the suggestion that we came up with is that you could institute within the board of elders the opportunity to establish a period of grace So today we're going to take the scenario and say that while we are polite in our class yesterday has been applied you with me and that's the step that we're taking farther he has now this is the situation has been taken to the to the board of elders because the church at established a structure by which the elders could have an interim process before it had to come to the church board before it had to come to the church and business ocean by which the elders could put the. An individual who was in open soon under a period of grace and that there were some steps that they could take and taking that person out of office voluntarily they being willing to step out so it's not a big scene in front of the church but you can work behind the scenes for him and try to straighten the situation out and correct that whole problem. But now we've come to the point where that period of grace let's say was 2 months has come to an end what happened next and please. OK. That's an interesting perspective all come back to that that they that very interesting I'll come back to them. So what I want to do now is let's go and let's work through the detail that's not going to be a little below Boreas but as part of the learning process how many of you do do sit on the church board. Whatever past or present whatever. So some of you have not sat on the board and this discussion probably is a little bit new for you but that's fine that's what this is all about we're trying to understand the process of redemptive discipline and how that works in the steps that we would take and so what I want to do now is to take you through I detailed step process this part will be a little laborious but I want you to understand it because it is important to be done well and done correctly so stay with me as we go through this all right please. Or. OK so what we said yesterday and and the day before Matthew chapter that chapter 18 is a series of appeal correct the 1st appeal is an individual 1 on 1 appeal the 2nd 1 is a couple 2 or 3 people going in making an appeal the 3rd 1 is a is a larger group making that appeal and some people wondered you know why are we digging in and getting an extra step because we are trying to make sure that we can do everything redemptive Lee that's possible to do and we're not trying to bypass a step but it's in the spirit of what Matt Jesus was talking about in Matthew 18 the 2 or 3 dozen Jesus never said they going 1 on 1 couldn't be repeated more than once but that what the Lord was illustrating is that we slowly enlarge this experience until we've got no choice but to go that direction and let me tell you you skip step 1 and you skip step 2 when you pick up the newspaper 1 day and you read about the head elder having. Having been arrested for pornography and dealing with with child pornography you just went right by all that process because it's now public and in the news and and in everything else the church. Then 1 on 1 is not necessary at this point the whole world knows about it and in this day and age that's almost literal All right so there are times when you can't you can't use that process but the steps that we're talking about here are when the issue is contained and you're trying to redeem this person before they destroy their life and perhaps the life of their family or whatever any more than they already are by their action so we have to take the situation as it is and deal with it but where are you assuming at this particular point that that Mr B. hasn't resisted he's had some steps taken it's gone through the board of elders using the process we've talked about and now you come to Mr B. And you say we don't have any choice that you've made a decision you don't want to resign you want to make an issue out of this because you don't think it's bad we have no choice but to take to the jury more and we will be taking this at the next year or more in the next year while Go ahead you can do it if you want to it's up to you but I don't think what I'm doing so bad the fact of matter is I don't think having 3 wives would be a bad idea. I mean whatever because basically what he would be saying 1 needs already got a mistress and he's got a wife and he's making that kind of a statement he's an elder in the George and he's a Sabbath school teacher you can't have a person like that still teaching Zab school or being up front leading out in the church services so we have to now deal with that. That's it exactly. Precisely. OK All right here we go taking the issue now to the local church board let's take this 2 through the process the 1st step in this is that the board of elders will recommend a disciplinary action to breathe her to the church board in other words you you have had to visit you've told this to be that this is not working this is not appropriate and so you take your report back to the board of elders because that the context in which you've been working the board of elders agrees that it's time now to take this to the church board and so the church board takes it up at the next session now because the board about it was includes the pastor the pastor is involved in this process with me all right guys we'll make sure you all understand that we're not bypassing the pastor here pastors involved in this process has included it passes the chair of the board the process is being brought to the board so the pastor puts on the agenda this particular item discreetly you put it on there you know put it on the agenda and say we are now bringing to you the fact that on the agenda that Mr B. is having an affair and we need to take this up until and so forth why not. Army. How are we how would it get out it's going to the board. It's printed it's going to the board but there's another reason. Not a trick question but it's 1 that we don't often think about and which is why I'm asking and that's really that Dan was referring to that as well OK so I agree that is an issue but there's another reason. Yes it's related. Let me let me take you down the road that you're not thinking of and realizing it because anybody can attend any member can attend your church or. Correct so if you have that on your regular agenda and it spells out what you're going to be discussing anybody comes there and picks up that paper not after the meeting but if somebody comes to their regular board meeting and they pick up that agenda even if you're going to do what you should do which I explain in a moment is still now is on that agenda I know it's out there for everybody you might have something on there that somebody says. Executive Session. And that just tells the Borg that there's going to be something in what you have to go to executive session for and into executive session for and therefore it's not being spelled out on the agenda if you felt you had such a large board that you needed to put it on the A on an agenda is like a conference executive committee does we have an executive session after the regular session because we do have observers that are appointed to come to the conference executive committee and it's regular meetings but we also have a personnel section that's only for the Executive Committee and those that are authorized to be there for example the ministerial the director needs to be there and the education supervisor superintendent needs to be there because we deal with personnel and that personal agenda sometimes deals with very personal things related to pastors or to teachers and that is handling an executive session when people that are not regular members of that committee that are just observers are asked to leave the church board can function and does function that same way I know some churches that actually church members like to be there and do come there and have been informed educated that they have the right to be there and they come and they would that I think it's a good idea I don't have a problem with people being there I think members should have enough interest in their church they come to the board meeting and know what's going on they might not have any vote on that board and it might not be good if there are too many people for them to have voice or your board meeting could be there forever you understand what I mean by voice and other words that they can call on but they are welcome to come and observe them to learn the process young people can learn it as well be careful what you expose young people to in terms of the kinds of things that can sometimes take place on the board another reason to go into executive session when you talk about those things but that's the point I want to make here today both in relationship to the board and in relationship to the Business Meeting this is. Not going to be a regular board meeting like you might have had for the last 3 years you've got something unusual that you're bringing to the board it requires that the church board I'm in the notes again goes into executive session so when you go through your regular agenda you go through the items you take care of the the financial reporting the course report the financial reporting you go through the department issues and all those kinds of things and you decide whether or not you need to recommend buying a new boiler to the to the business meeting or whatever else you need to do then you push the pause button and anybody who is not a member of that church board and it doesn't matter whether they're member or not of the church they're not a member of the church board you push the pause button and say well it's time now that we need to go do expect the executive session and unless you're a member of the board we need to ask you to leave because not just. Whatever it's i legal issue here's the reason it's a legal issue when you go into expected a session you have a legal right as an organizational leadership team to be able to discuss openly the things that relate to people. You cannot be sued for slander that say Joe I bet a good quick pick on y'all pick on Raiders and I pick on Joe He's working my video tape recorder here he might get mad and use of it we have. The let's just say for a moment that you and I are all the board here and and what we've got to do is we've got to talk about the problem the Ray have OK And in order to have that conversation about him the only way to have a conversation is to be open and talk about it when it comes to the right time to deal with there are right range robbing banks OK and we need that to come out and nobody knows that he's robbing banks that he came in he can faster than and I are getting complicated here but any rate quite right quite robbing banks OK And so at any rate we need to talk about that but in part of talking about that on the church board we need to say you know I understand that he's been robbing banks and I as a matter of fact I think I saw him walk into a bank and come out with a whole hand full of money and I saw people come out in the calling the police and all of that I think I really did see that and Ray hears about it and we find out that you know there was a guy running around that was just like right and look just like Ray but it wasn't Ray but it's gotten all over the place now and his name has been slandered and all and we had people in that board meeting that we're having discussion in there that want members of the of the board and they went out and they started. Sharing that story around and gossiping about it Ray could turn around and sue you the church board members as individuals for slander. You understand me OK that's why it's a legal issue because if you were in executive session and you had that conversation then the board could not be sued because you were working within your legal right to have that conversation now the person who might have gone out of that executive session and made those statements to people and when it wasn't actually true and took it outside of the executive session could themselves be sued people don't realize when they start gossiping and they think they're doing the right thing by letting all the church know about what the board is saying so bad about this person that's not appropriate it's not legal and that person is opening themselves up to legal action if a person decides to do that OK so I'm making a point of it because you need to understand it as church leaders part of their process and some of you there on the board and they say I never hope to be on the border when I have to deal with that at least you'll know what these issues are those of you are on there while I understand it so it goes to the church board now what happens next then an hour let's go back to Mr B. you're off the hook who found out you were really wrong then to somebody else looking at you. And so now we're coming to Mr B. And the discussion in the situation is come we've gone into executive session and we have closed the. Session to anybody who is not part of the board the board now needs to have a conversation about Mr Beattie for many people this is going to be the 1st moment if we've been doing our work right the 1st moment they know anything about us. The ones that do know about it are the elders they are the ones who have been dealing with this let's just say that there are only 4 elders so the 4 elders have been discussing the situation and they're present at the board right now there's 10 members of the board and those other 6 are finding out about it for the 1st time now there's going to be you know there's some people like Mr B. and the Mr B.'s 1 of the elders of the church respect in the church Sabbath school superintendent they had no idea and and somebody might say ah I don't know what you where you're getting your story from but of I'm telling you I don't believe this at all and so the elders are at Go having to have a discussion with them and say look we've gone and talked in the talk to Mr B. And he says it's true and I and some people know that some people actually react this way they are such close friends with Mr B. they won't believe you saying that they honestly won't believe they think you're making it up that you're just trying to hurt Mr B. And you're doing that the board sometimes react that way right it's possible you might get into that board in the board just really says wait a minute we're not going down this Rex this direction and you want to do what you want to take us to the church and business session and you want to do you want to say do what you want to censor in no we're not going to let you take that Tim we're going to you know that I'm I'm I'm both the we table was and Della next meeting will you soon I'm saying that can happen but let's assume for a moment that we're continuing on with the pro process appropriately the church does not have the proper authority to take any action here you understand that except to recommend to the church and business that's all they can do about that and with a purpose the purpose of that is for the board members to come to an understanding and figure out a direction they want to go through prayer and counseling together and then they make the decision they want to take an action and recommendation to the church and business session. Can they then call a business session for the next day Weina. And needs to be a period of time and what's the purpose of the period of time. OK it's to keep everybody informed to make sure that people who want to that you know that might want to be involved in this process if they think it's a regular business meeting as many as you already have encountered that many people just you know they tune out the business meeting all the churches you know whatever I don't need to be here and you know my favorite T.V. programs on at that time and I don't want to be there and then they find out that and you know after the business meeting took place that Mr B. was dismissed from the church Mr May was what how come I didn't know about this was going on in that kind of thing so you want to make sure the information gets out in an appropriate way and I'm not talking about spreading the word about Mr B. you're just simply saying that there is a subject coming up that involves Mr B. specifically and he has a right to be there and they have a right to be there as well but you don't talk about what the details. It would be 2 weeks before you can have that business meetings because you're going to announce it for 2 weeks on church on Sabbath 2 weeks because 1 Sabbath people might not be there we assume that people will be there the following Now I can't help the fact that some of you are snowbirds and you're gone for 6 months and you don't get back during that time but I will tell you that unless there's a real urgency I would encourage a church pastor or church to delay that process if there's a narrow enough period of time before key leaders of the church that may be gone during the winter or whatever have a chance to get back that's just a practical or practical application of that. Or why that but that's part of the problem as part of the difficulty and that's why delaying that any farther sometimes can't happen and you have to you have to move ahead whether somebody is there or not you have to proceed with the lead. And then who is yes and the answer is yes and there are a couple of things that can and can happen in that kind of situation a board is usually much smaller and easier to contain not hard to find out and figure out whether board members are present for that meeting let's just say something comes that is of such a critical nature and I've had it happen that you actually need to get the church board together after a church service and you get them together and you say and you want to be careful because it's Savage's You Can Be careful what you discuss but what you may discuss is can we get together tonight after Sabbath in order to be able discuss this urgent matter that come before the church and pastor might do that they had over might have brought it out or whatever they may be dealing with it at that capacity. So yes that would happen but you can usually tell with all the board members are there they're all there you don't need 2 weeks for that because the board members are all there the issue there is getting the board members present are right and being able with. That there might be an on war an unusual situation and maybe the Mr B. says I want to be able to come forward George Will and you want to give him that right to do that so you might want to delay it until he has time to arrange a within a reasonable period of time to meet with the church board if he felt that he needed to be able to make the plans to do that so that could be the period of time here is making sure that we're handling this in a fair way not rushing to judgment those kinds of things again this is we Demp the discipline this is not judge mental discipline we're not trying to see how quickly we can punish him we're trying to figure out what we can do to save him and the process is still continuing through this. Working on the Georgia Board and going to business as well. You can ask the can't call it correct sir absolutely that that would be absolutely appropriate So now the church board meets and the schedules the board the business meeting at a time that seems to be appropriate let's just say that the board regularly meets and they came to a regular meeting of the board the needs on Sunday night and consequently they say alright we need to have a meeting of business meeting this is urgent enough we don't want to delay it any more we're not the middle vacations or whatever our principal leaders are all here it's centered center chatter we're going to schedule this meeting for 2 weeks from now so 2 Sundays from now we're going to have this meeting that means you've got to Sabbath in front of you to be able to make that announcement but it wouldn't just be in the church bulletin that I wanted to be there I'd want to be utilizing whatever mass communication process that you use allies in your church in order to get the word out it might be a physical snail mail letter going out to everybody letting them know of that and maybe that using electronic means that everybody in your church uses e-mail and you've all got e-mail addresses and you can communicate that way it may be that the only way that you can communicate with some people by phone it may be that you utilize 1 call now many of you know 1 call now and then electronic call out service and it might be that you utilize that to get the word out to all the church members whatever you do you're wanting to communicate and make sure that people have an opportunity to be present at that meeting if they choose to you also want to schedule that meeting at a time when Mr B. can be there unless Mr B. is taking a 3 month trip and you can't wait that long. And then you can give him a right I'm right a letter or something to that effect in order to be able to do that and there are times when those kinds of things happen and not a letter to resign but if he wants to give a letter to explain you can do that now a couple of cautions here want to come to this kind of disciplinary situation. A person does have a right to defend themselves before the church so when the business meeting takes place they may be other items on the agenda you are going to call an executive session when those items are done if Mr B. is asked for an opportunity to be there you can tell him that he can be there because it is his right but that he is going to the presentation that he's going to make is not unlimited because we already know that what he's doing is really inappropriate he's already admitted to the fact that it's inappropriate even though he thinks it's appropriate you're going to give him a certain period of time to make an explain explanation to the church as to why he thinks it's OK to do that. If he feels that he needs to do that and I will tell you I said I've. Supervised meetings business meetings where individuals are up for heroical bullies and what they want to do is they want to get up and stand up there for the next 45 minutes telling everybody why what they believe is wrong and why what they believe is right and what you're really trying to identify here is not their excuse for their sin of whether or not what you we believe they are doing is actually what they're doing another words if you're bringing somebody in big issue before the church and business session and you're talking about censoring them or are removing their name from George membership The question is do they really believe that Sunday is the Sabbath and not the 7th day not why they believe that because we already know that's wrong they may want to give a 5 minute explanation that they've come to the conclusion of the 7th day is not the Sabbath anymore and that they want to believe that and they believe everybody else should believe that Sunday is as well and they want to stay 7th Day Adventists and get everybody to change and then we turn around and say all right you told us what we need to know it's true that you really believe that you've got your reasons we don't need to know all those reasons but it was your year to do is that correct us if we what we think about you and understand about you is incorrect that's really the purpose of that meeting not giving them a platform or for him to spend an hour spewing about their sin or their belief or whatever the case may be that's not what that form or. And does that make sense to you you understand what I'm saying you understand why I'm saying that again because otherwise it becomes a platform when them to teach their ideology and try to convince other people to believe what they believe and that's not what this meeting is all about then. Absolutely. That's not in our stuff with us' absolutely right a lawyer is not allowed to be at that meeting this is not those kinds of sessions we're not the lawyers we're not trying to do things on that particular aspect or we are trying to be faithful to the church manual but presence of a lawyer has no place at a church business meeting in this kind of environment. We are trying to convince them that they are making a mistake in their lives and to correct that this is a series of appeals and this is near to the end of the peels that we are making at this particular case we're talking about doing asking for a vote of censorship and to censor them the censorship means that which in this case because of the fact that the board of elders of put him under a period of grace in already stepped out of his offices now some of the other people because it's gone to the church and business session now they begin to understand what's been going on behind the scenes and get a bit of an idea what's happening here and they say well we want to give him you know you've been already working with him with 3 months and he already agrees with this. Some judges may say look we don't know why censor him he's already doing this and he's got no 1 is I or the change some church members would say wait a minute let's go as far as we can that's reasonable why don't we do this for 3 more months this is that appeal then Jesus said we should make it's coming from the church family that we all agree it's wrong and Mr B. you think it's right but no we're saying it's wrong by the way part of what's going on here is you are also impacting Mrs B. correct She's not a member of your congregation but you're dealing with a problem and she's observing that and she's realizing that you really do believe what you believe and nuff to say that to her husband you need help and you could save your marriage if you would take this step and Mrs B. and stead of some of the calls that I get from time to time this is what's going on in my life this is what's going on in my church and the person is doing such and such as they had all of the church and the judge won't do anything about it and separate senator or is my father and he's the head deacon of the church and I mean I hear that story again and again and again because the. Church won't stand up for what's right they've got emotional ties they've got family ties they've got whatever but whatever happened to the biblical ties and the crew and the ties with Christ that need to be applied in those particular situations and that would that's where God is calling upon us to do. So. Here we are in the business meeting they're placed under a period of sensor as the ship Mr B. is placed under that and and that announcement is made Amien I say that action is taken and as you see on the screen here. We've gone into that business executive session and all of it's worked out only members of good regular standing then this of legal think here's where I want to be the recommendation of the board is read to the church the church discusses the recommendation the offending member may make a statement in defense of not able to remain in the room for the rest of the discussion some people say why he has a right to stay there no because people are going to be saying things that are are challenging to say and all he's done is been there to defend himself against what what is what the action is and if it's already identified as being true and he's admitted that it's true in might have a different reason for it than now the church needs to have the right can discuss it without him there and intimidating them so they he is asked to leave and the decision is made he might be sent home some people made some charges may want him to be able to stay there I don't recommend that it just puts more tension on it and they did everyone wondering if the listening up in the warrant and all act on the stuff so I would be time for him to go home the church takes its recommendation and it might be rejected and they choose to dismiss the issue or they might decide to go ahead and take the action of censor or removal now you the church board might make a recommendation to censor the church board might bypass that and go straight to removal I mean the church business action might go straight to removal and they have the right to do that in that setting you can do it they don't have to go through a process if they feel that I'm not process has been done and there's too much at stake and sometimes things come up that even the church elders in the purity board now. And that you know not only that we somebody might say you know the truth is this is been going on for a long time and I've been trying to convince a guy and I don't have any courage to come to the church and say anything and you've been more than kind to him it's time for the church to stand up for what's right or whatever. Say that in what is the. OK censorship is kind of like a period of grace L.-A gala more would like to use the term I agree with him that maybe instead of calling censorship it kind of sounds harsh and a lot of people only must and what it means call it a period of grace just like we do for the period for the for the elders but what it means is fine from the church manual if you look at the material I gave yesterday it means that the person is no longer holy any offices if they were already up to that point we took him out of the church elders did and so we don't have that but he would no longer be able to hold any offices he cannot vote or the church business meeting and he is a church member at the moment but that's all. That's correct that word sometimes is used as kind of a probationary period exactly now the period of censorship ship is going to be from $1.00 to $12.00 months the longest can be 12 months and the shortest would be 1 month 1 of the you wanted to be the shortest amount of time to accomplish the task that you believe is necessary in this case I believe would be totally inappropriate to censor him for 1 year and really that's ridiculous. There's no way out of you in doing that there's nothing that's going to be accomplished by that because you've already had appeared at the time of things that are going on and the it may be that 1 or 2 months is enough to see if you can get his attention and to see if his. If his attention has been gained so that he can turn around and turn away from that what you want to do is come at the end of that 1 month or 2 month maybe 3 month period end and he's really taken the seriously and he's had time to realize and he's gone for counseling and he and his wife are getting counseling and they're trying to work on the center and boy it was hard for a month when he finally broke it off with a woman and he's doing all those kinds of things. That's exactly and that's what we're low going for this particular boy exactly it all right then that your hand up. Just your panel and they're all right now there's a piece we have here we've not yet talked about that I want to come to let me just finish it out here at the for this period right now and make sure this part is clear let me finish it out and I want to bring something to the recommendation of the church board is read it's carried through if the vote is for removal of membership This must be then communicated to the offending member and that needs to be can. Communicated in writing I've heard of people I've had people come to me and say I was this fellowship in the Church for them church never even bother to tell me. All right now sometimes that's true and sometimes it's not but the way to assure that that actually happened is to send a letter snail mail and send it registered mail with a return receipt signed by the person that they received that letter that should be the way it is done in this day of electronic things and all it may be other ways of doing it and that still is the best and most secure way of making sure that that is communicated in another way that it might be communicated is by doing it in person and bringing that letter to Mr B. It may be that they had all around the pastor go in take that letter to Mr B. and handed to him again the goal here is to try to save Mr B. So that process in mind here's something I want to mention to you let's play this back for a moment let's go back to the beginning of the scenario Mr B. is having an affair he's an elder in the church Sabbath school superintendent you know about it you go and visit him and you talk to him and remember how I wasn't a person Aereo he's humble easy respect he's glad finally to get this thing out he says he's going to break it off and all of that all right let's assume for a moment that he does all that now was. I'm sorry. OK nothing you gained your brother. Your. OK let's let's add that ingredient in and I think you're right because I know of situations where the seem to be going right for about a month and then then pretty soon you know there were things and very soon as back in order another person or or whatever but let's just assume a for a moment that he starts the counseling he and his wife go to counseling. You talk to them 3 months later and you find that they're everything is going really well and Mrs B. says you know I'm so excited I've got a new husband that can and I forgive him for the action that he's taken and doing all of that what yet needs to happen. So what I might do let's say I'm the pastor and this issues come to me and I've gone and I met with him nobody else knows about it but she Mrs be called me and I went and I sat down with Mr B. and I had the conversation and he was willing to take all those steps and do all of that I might I would probably say and I've done this by not just using a pretend type thing I would say you need to you need to step out of your office. Because you need time to have to concentrate your marriage is in trouble and you knew you can't be an elder while your marriage is in trouble we're not we're not talking about disfellowshipping you or any of that kind of thing right now you need to take time in your life to put your life back together but your marriage back together and you don't have time to be an elder and the time to step out you will just tell them that you know of of course no reasons were just true and online for personal reasons he's stepping out of these offices and they're getting on with what needs to be done to get the healing going and taking care of that action that we made a statement 2 days ago that I'm coming back to here and that statement was. When God is satisfied the church is satisfied All right another word there there was a day in my ministry that I would have assumed that Mr B. was having an affair and that now I had to take that regardless because Mr B. must be punished for his sin and the church has a right to know that and it needs to be something where it is taken care of right now and it is dealt with and the church needs to know about it and he need to be punished for Assume And that is a mistake because it's not redemptive discipline it's judge mental discipline and it's goal is punishment not redemption because if you can redeem that person in you can take him out of that sin without destroying his life and destroying the life of his wife and their kids and affecting the church by dividing the church over there their love for him and their support for him and all the other kinds of things that happen you are showing love to him and you're helping him away from that sin and moving it away now there are times that there are consequences for sin that you and I cannot always. Handle that woman for example that he's been having the affair with she may decide to go public that's a consequence of my sin. And I'm going to have to live with that if that is what she decides to do and she lives it makes it all public and I get back to the church and. I'm not going to as a pastor I'm not going to go because the Georgians say are we just thought we could slide it underneath it thing here bad you know whatever no that's not it what I'd be saying to them is the reason we did this is because we were deemed this man but there's a consequence of the his sin that he's now having to face and the fact that it's come out and it's going to affect him for the rest of his life. While he already had stepped out of his office but maybe untie let's say in the coming when by and and after a period of time everything's going well he's learned his lesson is actually put back in as an elder is taken back it would be appropriate it is OK because he's learned growing and dealing with that but then this thing comes to the surface yeah then he's going to have to step out because now it's a public thing in the churches not analysed but you know what the church could actually say no we're not going to now this is some nother step that I would recommend for this elder along the way when he's had a period of time to be able to pull this together he's gone through the counseling he's shown that he's put this woman aside he's got none of that type of thing happening it's not unusual for people to make a decision maybe the next evangelist think needing or whatever to be rebaptized. And he could do that if this ever came back up out after that period of time he came back up in the church said well you didn't do anything yes we did took him out of these offices he was doing this for a period of time he got counseling he's been in spiritual renewal and he had made a decision to be rebaptized he's done everything that was appropriate to do there's no punishment that he needs he's been punished enough and he's made it right with God he's made it right with his family and he didn't have to make it right with the church because the church didn't know about it the church knows about it now he's making it right with the church everything's done that needs to be done all right OK question here and then over here and I see your hand to. Our combat. Now you could end terms of censorship You mean like instead of censorship or just the process itself. Got Time to get together and all that as long as I mean if it's not public we don't have to but the public yes we we have to let them know and we might want to use that term OK. If all those steps have been taken that we've talked about you're absolutely right and there's no they wouldn't be need to do that and the charge would be able to recognise that the removal of from George membership would have to do if there was some horrific nature to that sense in which case that would have had to come to them in the person ways and also no there's no that's exactly the point you're making the point that we're making is that once. The point is stopping the soon. When the sin is stopped God is satisfied therefore the church is satisfied as well right. That's 1 of those consequences that might come up and that could be real challenging and and a real difficulty for an individual and the ramifications of that are huge We see it in the news almost daily it seems like and certainly we can see it in the church and the problems that arrive in the church from time to time and you just pray that it never really happens in the church but it does happen Manning you something here and then I want to take us down in the last few minutes here slightly different track this is just some of the statements from Ellen White regarding church discipline I just wanted to add to your material put it in your notebook I was thinking about having a conversation about it here and I just really don't have the time to do it because I want to go a different direction right now 1 of the questions I get I'm getting asked quite frequently and it's already been asked here today is how do we handle some of these more challenging circumstances that are becoming a reality in our churches today for example the L.G.B. type issues that might arise in our church how do we handle it if someone is up front in terms of dealing with I think. Dr Bevan Clayton made an observation yesterday. That is is here and that is my my words my interpretation of that is as we're dealing with these issues redemption is always the goal redemption is always the goal so it really doesn't matter what the sin is. The fact of the matter is sin needs to be dealt with redemptive with whatever issue that person may be struggling with in their lives they need to be controlled it in love and help to understand that whatever it is that they're dealing with really is a sin. A couple camp meetings ago we had a group on campus. And their group their name is coming out you know that I'm on them. There were 4 individuals here and they do or doing a marvelous work in relationship to the this issue and helping churches know how to manage this but the bottom line with them is if you listen to their stories a lot of it is where they spend a lot of timing time being beat up by the church rather than being helped by the church and the truth is the church is kind of ignored this issue and so as the world ignore decision and tell the world is starting to take a whole different tack and that tack now is that hey leave these people alone they can do what they want to they have a right to do that all right I'm willing to give them or or the right to do that but don't turn around and tell me that I have to turn around and defend them and defend them as though it's not a sin in the church and that's where the world is trying to go right now is to say that we can't call sin by its right name and there are people that are losing their jobs and all of that over these kinds of issues now I'm going to tell you that I don't always agree with this type of actions that some people that call themselves Christians take in regard to this issue but what I will tell you and I didn't say what I'm talking about there but what I will tell you is I believe they have the right to do it OK. F. somebody I'm just whatever for example if somebody owns a bake shop and they don't want to serve someone because they believe what they're doing is a sin that they have a right to make that decision out of their conscience now I know that what's coming out of this and where this is coming from is if it's in the area of the rights of people you know if my skin is black and you don't want to give me a cake from your your store that's not fair I bring with that I agree it's not fair and that's part of the challenge our world is in today and that is being black is not a sin being involved in homosexuality is a biblical literally recognized sin of a person from their own conscience is taking an action in regard to that I believe they have the right to do that I know I'm recording this but I'm just telling you the truth I believe they have a right to do it but that's the challenge this world his having right now and dealing with. All right here's. Here's the challenge that we face when we deal with those kinds of issues there's a reason why Paul makes the statement in Corinthians that we have to treat them as though they are a sinner. I and turmoil I know what the word to use is not sinner but Gentile we have to treat them as though they are a gentile not a gentile we're going to treat in a couple of different ways 1 of them is we're still going to care about them and we're 7 a love them but they're not going to be up front in our churches leading out in our church and they're not going to flaunt their sin in our church and you can flaunt your sin in a lot of different ways and I'm going to tell you I believe it would be wrong for that person to be playing the piano Alan White is very the church man you're not I haven't looked at this lately to see what it says about music but you know the Bible that the church manual used to say that the things that people would wear would disqualify them from doing special music and for playing the piano and from doing those kinds of things let alone dealing with this kind of an issue we say we're trying to love them by letting the play the piano and flaunt their sin in front of us that's not love and that's also confusing our young people and our adults in our church when we do that they don't know what to believe anymore that church that person looks like they are as much a part of the church as anybody whether they've been removed from church membership or not if they're being allowed to do that is making a much bigger statement than then and otherwise and I would say I would treated this way we have a problem right now with people who are going around teaching a particular doctrine maybe several different kinds the 1 of the ticket or right now and then system coming into our churches on Sabbath morning they've been removed from church membership and we've told them in early on and 1 particular individual we told them Look you can you we're removing you from church membership you can come to church here if you want to but if you're going to teach what you're teaching We're going to tell you that you can no longer come to this church. So this individual came to church and for a while was quiet but then the word started getting out that he was starting to go to people's homes in that in that congregation and visit those church members teaching them what he had ben the whole not to. And he was trying to promote that and finally we told him you can't come to church here anymore now he's goes off and he continues his work and he gets some other gullible people to accept that that truth and I'm using that word cautiously gullable the sense that when we are not solid in the Word of God and we have gone the direction away from the Word of God We've shown our gullibility to the decks of Satan I don't care how some serious sincere and individuals truth may be I'm sorry belief maybe if it's not the truth of the Bible that shows their own personal gullibility and Ellen White talked about the fact that people would be deceived at the end of time in a book or a controversy and only those who truly are students of the Bible would be able to be defend the defend themselves against that that heresy in these individual and go out and they may come into church on Sabbath morning and I talked to 1 of them he said Oh it's a coincidence of the pastor doesn't happen to be there that 7 but it's interesting to me that about 99 percent of the time that's what happened so I'm going to leave them there was coincidence that they go there on Sabbath morning they come there went into a Sabbath school class and they start waiting for an opportunity to start sharing what they're sharing. And the difficulty with that is what happens is they're starting to undermine God's church they don't have a right to come and disrupt our churches they don't have a legal right to do that when they say I have a Matthew 18 right now you don't Jesus never would allow that to happen Paul wouldn't allow that to happen and he Paul told them the put them out of the church and we have a legal right and we do we have told them if you come back we will use legal means in order to let you understand you cannot be there now that sounds really harsh but that's how bad this says become we've used every step we literally spent hundreds and thousands of dollars in putting personnel in place. To try to help these people understand the truth and they were unwilling to accept that that level the truth and to manage that so whether I'm dealing with homosexuality or something illogical heresy or whatever if that person is continuing to flaunt that sin we will tell them that you know longer welcome to the church anymore because your message is disrupting our church and you don't have a right to do that now this is the age we live in there's a group out there known as the day of shepherds Rod they've been that I don't know if they've showed up here a camp meeting yet but they were here last year. Showing up at the church there. Absolutely. And they can go out on a public place and do that they can they have the right to do that but I I would get to a point and say I'm sorry I have the dickens at the door and I'm saying I'm sorry you're not welcome. You're not welcome here and we have to take those kinds of actions because people are doing it this way you know what the algae the tea community is going to picketing churches and picketing people that don't believe what they're doing this is where the world is coming to we are going to be persecuted over these doctrines and taking a stand against the sins you understand that right and whether it's this or anything else that is along that direction that's where the world is coming that the world is coming to defending sin and bringing it in now I really want to back up here and I see your hand but I want to back up here for a moment. And if anybody is watching this video and takes of my comments out of context the context is for 3 days we've been talking about redemptive discipline we've been talking about systematics Depp's appealing to people personally with 2 or 3 people and as a church and the Lying is laying out for them what the Bible teaches and appealing to them to turn away from sin and to go a different direction and the only reason I'm talking about this now is because you break the end of that and people have a right to make a decision to do that to be to come and and to force it upon me in my church on Sabbath morning is not either their spiritual right nor their legal right and that is again in the context of redemptive discipline though all right 1 comment here and then we've got a great. Show you're into. Why don't you come and talk to me I think I need to have a conversation with you OK I'll answer your question very simply a person who has been disfellowshipped from the church and doesn't believe what we believe about salvation and all does not have a right to take partake in communion aright we believe in open communion but we believe in open communion and if someone comes to my church who may not believe in the 7 seventh's a Sabbath but they are Christian who believes in Jesus as their Savior and as living to the love to the light that they have they have a right to participate in communion and we're happy to have them but a person who is flaunting their sin in front of the church is a is a dishonor to God and for them to participating in communion as though what they're doing is in what they're really saying is I can partake in communion Jesus except me and that's not appropriate that is a misuse of that and and if I have to defend that I've very simply I go to per screen B. and 11 and I make it Bundy clear at 1st Corinthians 11 says that you can take part unworthily and that's not appropriate. Need spiled. Come talk to me all right I can see this can be quite broad last comment you're getting a little bit more complicated but I'm going to make a simple statement in regard to that yes and that simple statement is that we've always believed it was wrong we've always believed it was inappropriate for 7th Avenue minister to marry 2 individuals who are unequally yoked and we believe that a person for 7 am this pastor to marry a 70 Aves woman to a Roman Catholic man or a Baptist man or a non-believing man of any kind is inappropriate and and how Tickell Need I say anymore. Unequally yoked because we're dealing with the problem at 2nd City all fits in with the same category and in a sense we don't have to take a new action because the truth of the matter is that we've always believed it was wrong and we don't have to take new action the challenge of course might come in relationship to what kind of legal actions may take so far the courts of not even wanted to get into that situation because they know when they start crossing over into the religious authority of a local church that they are crossing that line and they know that line is not defensible yet it may be in the Supreme Court sometime and that's that's where we're headed with this that's another glass in another place thank you very much for your patience your question to hear what I want you to do today as you leave. Absent cards here and what I'd like you to do is bring these tomorrow if you want to sub to use a tomorrow our focus is going to be on. On dealing with conflict in the in relationship to manage conflict management in relationship to these these kinds of issues and the conflict that you can build and how to manage that in the local church but you may have some scenarios that you would like to talk about and I'd like to even if we don't talk about them here I'd like to hear about some real world situations that you had to deal with you can put yours down they should dealing with there to keep but before me and maybe there's some others and we might get a chance to talk about some of these because I'd like to help you through with them so that's what these cards of 4 and all pass them around here take 1 or whatever and ask them are on yeah you can give it to me later today or tomorrow whatever you choose to do and yeah let's have a closing prayer than will turn it all right that's by our heads. Father in Heaven as we've talked about today and we're getting into the real world that we live in a very challenging world we know that's changing around us so quickly so fast. And the world is going after the ways of Satan is the father of lies and he is the 1 who authors these issues that are coming before us churning by turning the world away from God joining a world away from you and from the truth of your word we pray that you will help us as we seek to protect the church stand up as shepherds as members for what is right and what is clearly taught in your word we pray for those that are struggling with Senna's we all are and pray that you will help us to help others find in Jesus the salvation and the strength they need to be able to resist and to overcome as we go our ways today go with us we pray in Jesus name in. 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