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Redemptive Discipline: Concept & Application- Part 4

Royce Snyman


Royce Snyman

Ministerial Department Director and Coordinator of Evangelism for the Michigan Conference



  • June 19, 2017
    11:00 AM
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Father in heaven we thank you again for this chance to study together Lord we wish we didn't live in a sinful world we know that the great controversy is going on and our wishes will 1 day become true because our wishes are based upon faith and faith in the Word of God the promises that Jesus is coming again soon but until that takes place we still live in the sinful world and there are real life problems that we have to deal with I pray that you will be with us as we talk about as leaders how to manage these problems how to help people with these problems and to do so in a way that is redemptive May your spirit guide us we pray give me words to speak and all of us ears to hear in Jesus' name. Well to this point we've done a lot of work so let me back up just to review I think most of you used to teachers doing that if you've been out of class for a while it's good to be reminded how teachers function and it's I don't know by you but it's so easy for me to get going down a track I need to be reminded of where I was yesterday and what I learned yesterday and that is part of the way that I learned as well and so I'm going to just back up here in case anybody wasn't here the 1st day or you want to hear yesterday whatever it is bring you up to speed with what we have done in the last couple of days we have talked about the whole process of redemptive discipline we have done so and discussing it in the context of revolution in Matthew Chapter 18 we pause to talk about. The whole chapter and that Jesus where he spoke about the need of the church and Christians in the churches the cycle followers to care for each other like a lost sheep. In Chapter 18 he spoke again of the lost sheep that the shepherd had to go out and find and leave the sheep that were in the fall because they were in the fold he didn't have to worry about them but he went out to find the lost sheep and immediately after reminding them of that that scenario something very familiar with them because they were used to the shepherds being there are rafting them around in the sheep and in all they understood the imagery Jesus told them about how to interact with each other when problems came up the disciples had problems they didn't always agree with each other they wanted to know who was going to be the greatest in the kingdom of heaven there were other times when they got upset with each other and they got upset with other people the disciples want to call fire down from heaven in order to be able to take care of those Samaritans that 1 being nice and Jesus said you don't know what spirit you're of I'm not the spirit of Evan that's not what I came to teach So the disciples had to learn along the way so Jesus outlined 3 steps when a brother brother or our include a sister offends us he said if you are a offended somebody just something to hurt you just something wrong go to him alone go to her alone if they follow that her and that principle and that person responds and says I'm sorry let's make it all right then it's taken care of 1 on 1 nobody else knows about it it's finished it's done is taken care of the person doesn't respond appropriately and says Oh leave me alone I don't really care about that guy whatever then the 2nd step is we go with 2 or 3 others. We said along the way that it might be that we do this more than once those may be the steps but if we get a glimmer of that there are some hope there we want to continue this process until all hope is apparently exhausted and the person may say well I intend to do that but they don't do it then we have to take the next step but we talked about the 3rd step going to the church we also talked about in our class on the 2nd day we talked about the fact that there might be a 3rd step. That leads to a 4 step that some alert to the 3rd step the Jesus out of line but working within the context of our organization is the 7th Avenue is church that that 3rd step is creating within the board of elders the authority by authority of the local church to put a person under a period of grace without having to bring it to the whole church just through the board of elders so that it is contained as much as possible before. In an effort to solve this problem before it becomes broad and widely known so that the redemptive process can be inclusive of. Less people and stead of trying to give a doubt to the whole Sure Yesterday we spent a lot of time talking about what I guess I would say in this context that 4th step of taking it to the church and we talked to him and outlined that whole process we talked about it in detail because churches have to deal with it from time to time they need to be able to manage that and we talked about the fact that you go to the church in in in the church board you talk about that as a recommendation from the board of elders if you've set up that process and the process would be in the case of Mr B. you have been talking about a lot this week anybody with a last name begins with beer I'm not talking about you. You have been feeling guilty all of the. And so anyway we take the the recommendation that Mr B. has resisted the counselor we've been given he's not done what he said he would do the sin continues in this in the case of that scenario I.E. is living with not moving he's having an affair with a woman is not breaking may have a fair offer He's an elder in the church he his wife is not an admin if he's also at 7 schools of insanities wife is not a matter of us she's come a complaining or appealing to the church to deal with this and he doesn't do what we ask him to do. Assets of that consider you an elder in the church you was but you aren't. That's still not about use so it's another. You know that's true. It once and now they're always an elder except you have to be elected in a local church you gave me an opportunity to make that statement and so. The board votes to send to I mean discuss is whether to censor Mr B. or to take a recommend I should say to slow down or leave the church discusses the recommendation that comes from the board of elders the recommendation is to censor Mr B. for a period of say 3 months the board discusses that but the board can decide whether or not to accept that recommendation or to pass on another recommendation a different 1 and that is it's gone on too long we think he needs to be removed from church membership and he could do either 1 of them yes and it's an executive session thank you for a minute. And or they can dismiss it all and say we're not gonna do anything. So the board makes a wreck makes a decision all right this is the review part the board makes a decision about what to recommend to the church and business do nothing censors him for a period of time or move or remove him from membership because this is an ongoing problem and ongoing rebellion against clear Bible and Spirit of Prophecy Council and therefore the person is removed from it could be removed from membership or censored for a period of time so I'm going to keep going for just a moment so this goes on to the board makes a decision let's say the board decides to accept the recommendation of the board of elders and. Makes the decision to recommend to the church and business session that they're going to remove him from that they're going to censor them for 3 months so Mr B. as informed of the action of the church board the church board has made a decision that the NBU meeting is going to happen as soon as possible which we said is 2 weeks because you have to allow time for the church to be informed of the meeting that's coming up in the business meeting it didn't happen to be a business meeting scheduled so they have to schedule it and let everybody know about it 2 weeks from then they want to make sure Mr B. can be there if he chooses to be he says he wants to be so he says he can be there in 2 weeks which is to Sunday nights from where they are and so they make that announcement in the church for 2 Sabbaths they announce a they send a letter out to the church members you know communicate in whatever way they can to get the word out and the business meeting takes place the business meeting takes place Mr B. is there as he said he would be the church is an executive session that means that if they're not a member so Mr B. is at the meeting. And at that meeting he's been informed that he can make a presentation. If he believes that he's being wrong I think he's right he thinks it's OK for him to do what he wants to do but the real question is whether or not he has a agrees that what he's being accused of is actually accurate I don't want to sound like a court because as a redemptive discipline but I'm being real brief in the language I'm using and so he HAS THIS IS THE comes there and he says I'd like to make a statement and we say OK you've got a couple minutes to make a statement of we're making our presentation our recommendation is from the church board that you be censured for 3 months the reason is because you're violating the 7 7th commandment that is clearly taught both in the Bible and the spirit of prophecy and it's what the $77.00 as church believes because you're violating the 7th commandment we believe you should break this relationship off that's what we're trying to do we're not trying to punish you we're trying to stop your behavior and by doing what we're doing here we're asking you to stop that and the real question that we have for you Mr B. is do you agree that what you are doing on that we have rightly river presented and you really are doing that yes I really am doing that so what is it you want to share I want to share why I believe it's OK for me to do that now at that point it's a little bit of a judgment call on the part of the pastor who's journeying the meeting to whether he wants to give him a little bit of time to explain why he believes that's OK because this is not a place for him to have a forum to flaunt his sin the 1st place for him to say no you brought you have not rightly represented me I'm not having a relationship with with that woman you're telling lies about me that's not actually happening that's really what his defense should be. Yeah we we changed some of the scenarios and I'm changing it a little bit right now just to keep it simple I want to make sure the basic principles are covered and that is that at that meeting he has a right to recruit represent himself no lawyers we said and in that setting. He says Yes it really is that way but I believe it's OK for me and we might give him a couple of minutes to explain that the Usually when they try to explain why sin is OK They only dig the hole deeper and we're not going to spend a lot of time in doing that if it's false the ology I'm not going to give them time to explain their faults the all of you because we don't believe that they're agreeing that they believe what we don't believe and then we have taken action so at that point the Church votes now the church can reject the recommendation of the church board right they can say we don't believe that that we need to take an action against it now there are some churches that will do this and when it's as clear as the situation is with Mr B. in really is discouraging to a lot of people I'm sure and and that's a challenge and it's a problem and it is discouraging and it's frustrating and most importantly it brings dishonor to God we think we're showing love to people when in reality we're not because we've taken redemptive steps to encourage this person to turn his back on soon my Bible says that the wages of sin is eternal life wages of sin is death. And when the person is sending and we say it's OK for them to say then we're going to ignore you or send because we like you too much we're actually saying it's OK you can go ahead and die in your stead and we don't care enough about you to tell you that what you're doing is wrong that our that's where that comes on to so it gets to be a real challenge that all right that's a summary of what we've done up to this point now let's see if technology is going to behave itself now and I think go back into this so with that summary in mind I want to take us to a next step now some of you have said mid some cases here and I'm going to I'm going to share them because I want to just talk about this in a real contests how many of you sit on your church board OK so there's quite a few of you how many of you the raise your hands a moment ago asked sat on the church board when you dealt with issues like we're talking about I don't mean exactly like but I mean redemptive discipline type issues. I'm not going to ask you whether you feel that your church handled them redemptive really I just wanted to know if you had to deal with them now those of you who didn't raise your hand in terms of being on the board and having dealt with it you might have been on the board in the past and had to deal with that that's probably true or you might be church members who had come to a church in business session so let How many of you of either band on the church board and dealt with this or have been a church member or not been a church board of had to deal with issues how many of OK it's almost all of them all right good so you understand what we're talking about I want to stress again that this whole issue is an issue of read them to discipline we want to be able to. We've talked a little bit about these scenarios here but we want to try to fit it in because my goal today is to talk about real issues but also to talk about conflict management I've given you a document that will help you in working through conflict in your church and I want to talk to you a little bit about it but I want to take some of these examples let's here's a scenario has been shared it says while the church has to take some form of action so not to hurt the church he needs to think about what he's doing to his wife and how she must be feeling feeling and the church needs to get to know his wife and to talk to her OK I'm going to use that in the context of what we're going to talk about here in a moment and dealing with conflict management Here's a scenario that Mr Beers accuse of illegal sexual advances he confided in maybe get 12 to 15 years he can plead no contest and be done with jail in 18 months and chooses the 2nd choice when he's released how does the church relate to him he claims innocence but will be on the sex offender registry list wow let me take a moment to talk about that 1 because it's really it's real as a ministerial director arrive I am increasingly having to address these issues in the local church. I address them when the cases clear persons gone to jail the person admits having done something illegal and winding up on a registry list when that happens I'll talk to that for a moment because. That's cleaner to know how to address of and how we function with us and so the in the church in the local church this is what we were recommended. Where an individual has then has served jail time and admits to the fact that they are guilty of the crime and comes to a local church and wants to participate in the local. We believe that person has a right to participate in the local church so we don't automatically exclude them from that church but the church also has a right to take steps necessary to protect their children all right so now we're caught between the individual's right to attend church and the church is right to protect its children because most 99 percent of the time these events or these these issues involved children underage children and all of that so this individual what we do is we tell the pastor that the pastor needs to visit with the individual discuss the situation with them and we have a document and agreement that that person has to sign that they're going to participate by certain rules when they come to church or. If they are still if they were under probation they would have to abide by those rules but being on the registry list they also have to abide by those rules and the rules are basically state you're coming here to church and you have to come here but you I mean you can come here but only under the supervision of someone you agree is going to be your supervisor in maybe a particular person in the same person every week it may be a different person but a person by office it might be. Someone from the elders or somebody from the deacons that are going to be with you constantly you are not a model out to go to any of the children Sabbath school classes you are not allowed to stay here for potluck and be hanging around the kids you can come to Sabbath school in church and you must be with the with your supervisor the whole time if you go to the bathroom the supervisor goes with you make sure there are no children in that bathroom there are no issues there those are the kinds of steps that we take in relationship to this when the issue has been very clear when we have a case where the individual claims innocence the church is stuck because the church has no right to become the judge and jury and to in that particular quick case go against what the law is decided because there's another factor that's working here in THE SITUATION. I'll tell you what it is. It's called risk management. Because whether I like it or not we live in a meticulous society and what I mean by that people like to sue the church OK like that's not the right people will see that you're. And there are some people who actually like to see the church. In a way we know about that. And. The challenges that come with that is that the church has to take and meet a certain standard in order to be preventing disaster from happening in that local church. So here's here's the problem if I believe and accept the fact that this individual is indeed innocent but I don't know that he has because I wasn't there or whatever but I assume because I believe that he's a nice person. And I want to believe that he's innocent and I don't impose anything on him that I've just like of this just described but I've been known as to me really was guilty. Or even if he wasn't guilty but now actually does what he was accused of again with somebody else and we as a church knowing that he had been accused and he had been convicted and spent time in jail even though it was no contest if somebody child is molested by that person and then turns around and chooses to sue the church what's going to happen who are the church is going to be held liable unless by the grace of God somebody out there has mercy and it doesn't happen because the church didn't maintain that standard that the church itself recognizes that has to impose because of the law and because of the circumstances and so this is this is becoming really unfortunate and there are actually times when we have to tell people because local churches will sometimes say we're sorry but we can't take the risk what I know of churches where somebody comes along like this and in that situation people say I'm not bringing my kids there anymore nor sudden the kids family families we can do a battery from. I can't control the decisions the parents are going to make in that church and now the church comes face to face where do we lose all the families in our church over those in individual and that situation we do tell that individual We're sorry but we'd love to have you we willing to work with you but there are some families that are just not able to manage this and we've got to make a decision and ask you not to come those are so heart wrenching and I've talked to church members and leaders of the church as the don't want to make those decisions but because they are leaders they don't have a choice but to make those decisions and to work in those kinds of cases Oh and that the sinful world would come to an end and we don't have to deal with those things. But there are real they are very real challenges and they're part of this redemptive discipline process because here folks is something we have to remember Susan has consequences we talked about it yesterday in relationship to mystery if Mr B. has this affair and the child was born in that situation or the woman that he has had that affair with decides to sue in order to share it in the newspaper or whatever because he's a he's a wealthy man and he's public push Roland or whatever the case may be and and it comes out I can't stop the consequences of that because remember in our redemptive discipline process what we've been trying to do is to contain the US so that this man can go on with his life and them and because he's turning his back on sand and he does not have to be punished for that sin because he's a he's confessed that sin and made it right with Jesus that's what we want to have happen. Problem is that soon has consequences and when sin involves those 2 that level of consequence I can't stop that from happening I can't tell what person not to speak anything and I'm certainly not going to raise a bunch of money to keep that that lady from sharing her story that's not appropriate we're not going to do any of that sin has its consequences and individuals going to have to face that and realize that danger in that problem and that it's a real you real real issue and that's true for the man who's been accused rightly so in that they were so mean that for now and that this person is put in jail that's part of the consequence of that consequence doesn't leave just because the person comes out of jail the person says now wait a minute I've paid my time yes that's true you have but society has imposed certain. Restrictions based upon their experience with problems and I can't change that the truth of the matter is the recidivism you know what I'm saying the falling back into that problem again is so high with people that society has said we just can't take the risk any more while complicated world OK I saw a couple hands please I was thinking about that and I want to say it and then I forgot it and you just reminded me Ellen White says. And the context are you not right off the top of my head but the context is in the case where was especially the disgustingly immoral on the level of what we're talking about OK and it says yes I think it was in that in that in that context and she says that God may forgive that person but that person may have to go to heaven without being able to be a church. And that's just reality that doesn't mean God doesn't love them God doesn't care about them but God can't can't can't change the challenges of living in society in the church environment and do all of that he may have to live outside of the church because of the nature of that sin is some it's bad also on the same nature of the the sin that Paul talks about in 1st Corinthians Chapter $55.00 or 6 and where he talks about the fact that the son was so disgusting that even the Gentiles considered it a disgusting and apparently that has to be pretty disgusting because the Gentiles and seem to think it was any issues right now when you say join What do you mean. You have people wanted to come to church as long as the church said that he could and he followed those those steps Yes that's right you could these are really challenging issues today and boy I'll tell you what I don't like it when my phone rings and that's why you're on the other end of the repeat that and I'm going to come back to that 1 because I'm this is the kind of thing the church is facing more and more and is really struggling with how to manage it so I want to come back to it and then I'm going to move into our our discussion regarding. Handling conflict you indicated that in your church you had an individual. Practicing a homo sexual lifestyle who was a practicing. God wanted him to be a homosexual and and that it was OK for him to do that the church took on that issue and eventually the church and business session removed his name from church membership but the challenge the church was facing there is what to do next and we've had some discussions on it in our in our class in the last couple of days in the sense that we are understanding that this is a redemptive process and when we get to that point we want to treat them the way we would want to be treated and the way God wants us to treat a person who is not a member of the church and that is with love and compassion and so your church was wrestling with that as a whole people some people are saying now we want we can't we don't want to hear all I mean that's just discussing all we don't want to hear others are saying no we need to treat him with love and he should be welcome to come here and to to be a part of this now this issue along with anything else can be a challenge and this is where it comes if you remove him from church membership because of the fact that he is practicing in a moral lifestyle and he decides and so you remove him and then after removing He says. Wow You know I get it this this really isn't right I really can't do this and then he wants to come back to the church the church that's not a difficult piece to understand but when that individual and should welcome him back even though it might not give him his membership back immediately it should take some time for that person to kind of integrate themselves back into the church family and show that he is truly repentant and that he's he's left that lifestyle and is no longer there and that person is removed from church membership continues to teach and believe that God wants him to participate in this lifestyle and because he does continue in that lifestyle and the church says no we want him to come to church and be part of here because of that lifestyle now things that that that's really where things get very very challenging because the practice of that sin is continuing. I wish I had some of our friends from coming out ministries here because some of them have gone through that kind of experience and I think I would call I would suggest a balance here the Church is struggling with. It doesn't mean we can't love his person. But is that the best place for them to come to church while they're still practicing that and creating confusion among the young people and all because of that person still believes that still practicing that lifestyle still doing all of that is going to spill over in the sense that that young people are going to say well it's OK to do that and in this society right now young people are tremendously influenced by the US and as I said in the class in my class last session as we were talking about West events as I said in that session the difficulty in the problem is that in some cases young people are coming to our pastors and saying is a really all that bad because if I were if I were to say that that I believe this lifestyle is OK and that actually I'm actually participating in the lifestyle I would be popular in school and that's what the kids are telling pastors today. All right so with that kind of situation can we afford to have that influence in the church by someone who continuing to practice that is that showing love to that person maybe but it's not showing love to the church by protecting the church environment so what could be happening in the meantime the elders could be working with that person on the side could be studying the Bible with them on the side still reaching out to them in law but outside of participating in the church because of the challenge that provides at the church now you know the situation the situations are so tough that the and what's going to happen here in maybe already is happening I think it already is but a person who has that kind of experience they get out there and they put the word out in their social circles and then pretty soon they start showing up at the church and the picket outside the church and they start saying that this church is homophobic and and unfair to them and so on and so forth and they'll do that kind of thing and if it gets really makes a news event in the Huffington Post and all kinds of other places will get ahold of it and they'll start to do stuff with it and and boy that tell you they have a field day with it and we've been having some of that with pastors that are come out of the some. Who saying I believe it's OK to be bisexual Arroyo I'm a I'm I am homosexual and I believe it's OK and I think is appropriate but I know my church doesn't so I'm I'm coming out of the church makes the Huffington perhaps the Los Angeles Times and it gets all over the place that's what we're living in today and that's the challenge that we have in being able to work through these problems of gas. 3 or 4 hands OK I'll leave you have to because. Was he a member. On the church or. The catching the OK Let me OK let me. OK Let me let me let me ask some help to question. Do you question is Was he a member of your church your church member of your church. Is he still a member. OK See the difference so what they didn't do is they didn't dispose of what happened to his memory or removing we don't you know what he left and did what OK So all right all right this is not a trial for their church are right now OK So let's back off I appreciate this practical nature and all that Oh yeah absolutely Wow I don't know how much I got on the recording here but as we pursue this a little bit repeating the situation what actually was happening at actually happened there is that he stopped attending his membership was still there it never came to a church and business session to remove him from George membership and at this particular point you don't know what actually happened that's actually good for a moment because I'm going to back up on that and I'm going to say all right what should be a what could have been the steps that might have happened in this case all right so here's the scenario let's assume that all the redemptive steps that we've talked about have been taken as she said the elder said we're working with him we're trying to appeal to him and and reach out to him and deal with that and then all of a sudden he stops coming in and whatever his church membership is no longer on the church books she says So what could have happened and I'll use the term appropriately that would be the right the what could have happened appropriately for that individual for his name to be off of the church books what could have happened all right what scenarios are possible tell me OK all right he could have requested his membership to be dropped. All right. OK I are all right that's exactly the right question to ask what if he did request it what would happen if he had requested his membership to be dropped what should happen is that that request would have been received by the church church board in writing right would have gone to the church board church manual says without discussion now this is good because there's a piece here somebody asked me about this as well and it is a little bit confusing in the church manual today see I gave up the church manual to you all deny it see if I can find my copy of that gave you didn't get a copy of what the church manual says on this it's it's here anybody else not get a copy of this see why I give you no books because I knew you were going to get all this stuff that I'm handing to you and and you know your plays are going to look like my little pile over here when the day gets done if you don't have it here. Sack thank you very much for getting me they were I need to be I'll come to the. Second to the last page it's on 2 sides so it would be back here the last page looks like verse ripe and it's this 1 and it is members at their request right all right let me read through this because I want you to pick up this little piece here this isn't so much redemptive but it is process and I think that's good for us to discuss and then we want to put it in the context of redemption it says great care should be exercised in dealing with members who request to be removed from membership and the way they suggest that is the church recognizes the right of the individual to withdraw membership letters of recognition should be presented to the church board. What I say. OK thank you words of resignation letters of resignation shall be presented to the board where the resignation will be recorded with the effective date according to the resignation letter out of Christian consideration for the individuals involved action shall be taken without public discussion efforts should be made to restore the individual to the church family now the church manual used to say and that's where this comes in and we're all trying to understand this and it did come Dale or Micha and I think we've come to understanding and now I think about it now I'm processing it I say yeah we did just have this conversation and yes that's what he said all right but it's just a manual used to say and tell this version came out and it Jane jizz every 5 years all right any changes with a little nuances like this the church manual used to say it comes to the church board without discussion and then it goes to the church and business session and in church and business session has to act on it but also without discussion the problem is that why are we doing that when the person has requested their membership to be dropped why do we need to take that step and take it to the church and business session because there's no real value in doing that now 1 could argue that redemptive boy somebody might say look I know this person let me go and played with them and and whatever you could argue that but the church manual clearly is saying that it needs to be recorded once it's brought to the church board. And that's the way I understand and that's because this is their request box. If I'm the pastor I would not do that until I'm sure that a good process has been followed that somebody has attempted to reach that person because I know of stories of people who've gotten angry over something and written a letter to the church and regretted having written that letter as soon as they sent it the didn't have the courage to say please don't do that and so that goes through and they disfellowship all they remove from church membership somebody needs to go through and just say look I've got your letter I'm not questioning you all I want to know is is this really what you want or did you just do this in a fit of anger because we love you we want you still be part of the church if you're telling us that this is really what you wanted I'm not going to discuss it with you anymore just know I'm praying for you and that's what's happening so somebody should do that somebody should somehow reach out to that person but without questioning them and then take it to the church border they say no I didn't want to do all right Doc and they're not here and that that is the answer to your question relative to what does it mean without that without question without discussion it is just that we can start saying well I don't think we should do this or I you know I think we I think is a good person or whatever no you don't have a right to make that decision you don't have a right to have that discussion the person asked for the membership to be dropped and it needs to be dropped all right. Right and I if if this followed a process it should have followed. It's not inappropriate for the church simply to be informed and that should be what happens and that's really what we are saying at this point it's not that it comes to church and business session the person is requested a membership to be dropped so it's dropped and maybe the next newsletter goes out or in the church bulletin. It might simply say that. George Jones has requested the mommy as well you might even say request his membership to be dropped and that was granted from our church right and and the that way the least the church knows about what happened and know that and there's no for the discussion on Wow interesting situation here how it is that time right now who OK All right I'm going to take your comment over here and then here and then no more comments because I got to finish my class here today on the. You're not going to get you know I was thinking this court class is going to be really short today and I might be letting you out early today all right I got a dress and I gotta tell you what I thought you know let me try to speak generically because I don't know all the details I'll take the details that you've given me we're not going to try to analyze it all the way through you're dealing with a situation like you've described and a person is coming to church and people are hovering over them and if the person is participating in communion what's wrong with that. Then take your Bibles if you wouldn't turn to the 1st Corinthians 11 in 1st her and see is 11 chapter 11 verse what 1718 yeah yeah yeah yeah you know thank you very much. Paul's context is he's dealing with. The unworthiness and the challenges that are there then he reminds them of the service and then in verse $27.00 there for every It's this bread agreeing to this cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of the Body and Blood of the Lord and other man examine him self and let So let him eat of the bread and drink of the cup for he you eats and drinks in an unworthy manner eats and drinks judgment to himself not discerning the Lord's body for this reason many are weak among you and many sleep the problem there in the number of different factors going but the basic principle that Paul is talking about here is the fact that we are that people are taking place taking part in the Communion service which is a mockery of what the Communion service is the Communion service is a reminder that I've been clan's from soon by the blood of geniuses and that I have turned my back on sin to allow that person to participate in the Communion service is making a mockery of Jesus on the cross and I'm sorry it's making a mockery of Jesus and the cross All right so the ME may keep going for a moment I see your hand so the question is what should the church be doing in and I also have a problem with the fact that the church is in your words fawning over this person or hovering around them and trying whatever to do here I wish that the coming out group were here because they could speak to this out of the circumstances that they have dealt with and I wish I had been in all the classes I'm in all of them but I'm going to tell you there comes a time in which you have to take a stand against sin for what it is when you've done everything you can to let you know those people know that you love them and you care about them and I think there comes a time when you actually need to say you can't come here. And that's very hard to do. We are doing it today I told you about that yesterday right if I say something about the yes we are actually we've told some people because of their doctoral stand in their insistence on coming to our church we have said you are no longer welcome in our churches because of what you're doing I don't like doing that but when those people are coming in and they're slowly poaching off of the church they don't have a right and they say said well I have a right to come to church you can tell me I can't come to church Jesus wouldn't tell me he wouldn't come to church let me tell you he certainly would and as a matter of fact there's nothing in anything that Jesus ever did that says it's OK for you to come and flaunt your sin or your heresy in among the church any if anything it's the opposite of that and Jesus holds us accountable for not protecting the flop and you don't have a right to be there and so we've taken that stand against it and in this case it should be done loving link it should done be done by steps and it should be done by people the authority in the church but eventually it needs to be said we're sorry you can come here now what's going to happen I'll tell you what will happen soon as the church takes its stand that is a vigil will go to all their friends in the church that they that grow their arms around them all the time in sex your church doesn't love me anymore it doesn't care about me anymore and then it's going to be an issue in the church and the church is going to have to wrestle with it but I'm going to say this. Welcome to the last days it's going to get worse and what we talked about in our previous class was of shaking and this is part of the shaking OK So to give you an opposite side of that because I think it's part of a part of the kinds of dynamics that often play out and that is that when it's a leader in the church that leader needs to be faithfully supporting what the church believes if that person that leader is not faithfully supporting what the church believes that person is not fit to be a leader and to and that poor is where things get really very complicated and I'll tell you a story of a situation where I was so thankful. I think that's all it said in another class not in this 1 but a study with a lady here recently preparing for a baptism and she was struggling with some things and her father is a member of the church I don't think he's a leader in the church but he's a member of the church and she was telling me how she'd get on the phone and she called her father who loses another state that perhaps is known for some of its. Liberalism if you want to be I don't like that word on the oil say and he she called her father and her father said Well you want to be a 7th Day Adventist you should expect them to have that direction and what a difference that made in Rilya in relationship to how she was haunted because she knew that it and she knew it was wrong or self but her father supported the fact that it was wrong and consequently she realized it was and so she went away from that's what should be happening in that situation all right I sense. In dealing with the issue of open communion we believe in open communion how many of you knew that it should be said that your church every time you have communion because you might have a visitor there who is a non administering their coming there by the we believe in open communion meaning this that if you have a faith in Jesus Christ you confess your sins to Jesus Christ you may not be a member of our communion so to speak our church but you have this belief but you are in a growth period in your life and you are learning and so on and so forth you have a right to participate because of your faith in Jesus Christ and I have a problem with a person who violates this principle and and that person is flaunting it and that's why I go back to 1st Corinthians chapter 5 and in 1st Corinthians Chapter 5. Verse 4 it says in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ when you gather together along with my spirit with the power. Of our Lord Jesus Christ to live or such a 1 and to Satan with destruction of the flesh that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus you are glorifying is not good do not know that a little have been leaven leavens the whole Lama therefore purge out the old leaven and you may be a new mom since you are truly unleavened for indeed Christ our Passover was sacrificed for us Paul makes it clear that we sometimes have to take a stand against open sin we're not talking about a situation where an individual is is doing something in their life and nobody knows anything about and examine himself in this particular case the church has a right to examine that situation and to deal with that situation and if it is being flaunted in front of the church now the church must take a stand well. That was what I was looking for thank you for picking what was that verse 11 you know now some people take that to an extreme and they won't even have them at their house so whatever the case may be were especially talking about the church situation and the influence that it has thank you that was the verse I was looking for All right let's OK let me boy push the button here for a moment we are not going to get to what I was going to talk about OK that's the bad news the good news is I still have tomorrow and my schedule has time in it for us to do that tomorrow so I'm glad to be talking about this and dealing with these really issues and we will bring out the conflicts issues of conflict management to Mars that OK that is going to work alright alright are some of you disappointed that I'm not dealing with conflict management today could you saw it in the book and you're not going to come tomorrow are you now. OK I'll hit a couple I lived just for you now I don't know them all right did you hear that. Yeah what are the CD thank you mature of I'll give you the material Yeah Right right absolutely the Bible is for are probably very clear on that for thank you I appreciate that that's very very helpful OK let me come back to your statement we're going to close off of that because I've got about 5 minutes and fortunately my time's running out you know I'm getting a lot folks pastors are human beings right pastors make mistakes I'm a pastor and I've made mistakes. Obviously the challenge comes when we're dealing with difficult problems and you're not expressing to me the nature of the situation so I'm just going to I'm going to take it and I'll take it a certain direction and and will do that to be able to illustrate what what would happen in that circumstance. Your church has leadership in a church and there's a reason why and you have a board of elders there and because you pastors are humans and they can make mistakes human beings they can make mistakes they also need to be held accountable for the mistakes they made not sometimes those most mistakes are blatant All right there are pastors who have done what Mr B. did and have that kind of situation and they wouldn't be that level of tolerance with a pastor if the information comes to me and I find out ministerial director I have to take it to the personnel committee and I have to work at through with that individual but basically I'm going to go to the pastor and I'm going to say as a true if a pastor says it's true then I will say I need you to hand over your credentials right because at that moment there are there are roles of pastors over I you just can't you can't have it when it's that clear and that that level that something goes kind of 6 to Asians can come to ministerial director or the president of the conference 2nd in the conference whoever and then my contact and that situation is very clear and cut other times the situations maybe not on the moral level of the breaking a commandment like that you know robbing banks or breaking the Sabbath or whatever but it might be a personal. It could be something where an individual a pastor has taken a strong stand against somebody and hurt them or or whatever the case may be end and the person's trying to get that thing sorted out pastors who have made a mistake like that should be willing to say they're sorry and of course speaking generically I never know because I don't know US circumstances that we're talking about you never know whether or not this is a pastor taking a stand against something that the that a member shouldn't be doing whereas the and that made the church member upset now when you get in that kind of scenario that that those things get really confusing but I'm keeping it clean and that is that the person you said the person did something the pastor did something that was clearly wrong and the leaders in the church recognize it was wrong and came and said that it needs to be corrected and the pastor apparently did not correct so what recourse does the church have of that time that's when the church leadership church had elder needs to call the minister over. That is part of the role that I have you can call in the conference we're not perfect proprietary or protective of args has issues or whatever but the logical place is go the ministerial director and that's where most people go sometimes people say look I know what a gal I'm a really well and I don't know that Royce name and follow so I'm not going to ryse name and I'm going to do all of ya'll more and I'm going to talk to him and and that's fine but you go to somebody at the conference office and you explain to them the situation and you ask for counsel in regard to it assuming that everybody is on agreement with that what's probably going to happen me if it comes to me I'm going to turn around and I'm going to go to that pastor and have a conversation with them an ad give them a chance to explain their side of the story if there seems to be continuity in that story or even if there isn't it may be that I'm going to try to an intermediate I mean mediate in the situation and try to get the parties together to help them that gets in the conflict resolution part that we're going to be talking about tomorrow and being able to work through that and that would be the step in the process. Now I'm just going to I'm going to stick my neck out neck out there that say that the pastor says you guys wrong you agree are you the person whoever agrees that it's wrong the elders agree that is wrong with the pastor says I'm not going to say anything I'm open to anything. At that point the ministerial directors got to make some choices in the personal committee's got to make some choices and that is if if it's clearly something that's wrong the person admits it was wrong but doesn't want to confess it and make it right then they might be some kind of disciplinary action that might be taken on them conference level anything from writing them up on their in their file to moving them to another church or dismissing them from ministry even with that. All those things could happen depending on the nature of the situation and what happened all of those things are possible. But that's a process that goes up there not a pastor can appeal that to the conference executive committee and then we get really. All of that kind of stuff and wow I thought this was going to be a boring class. Folks we do we do live in serious times and the problems that we're talking about are very real and our churches are struggling pray for your church and pray for churches where they may not be they may be struggling where you aren't and pray that God is going to continue to lead his church and help them to know how to work through these kinds of situations tomorrow we're going to take up from this point and pull this together I'm going to talk about the conflict management part of it a very important part of this component because just as you and I can see this church and the church you're talking about they ran into this problem and then the church begins to divide that's where conflict management skills are necessary and the steps that need to be taken need to be taken tomorrow we're going to talk about that's OUR have a prayer by then Evan while. Lord you saw all this coming you knew that this war was going to be in the state you tote Paul the tell tim of the that there were going to be a state in the church where people would not accept the direction that you wanted to lead them and they would go down the wrong path and they would think that they're doing what was right and the church gets torn apart by these things we can see them happening here we've talked about them today please give us wisdom and understanding give us abundant love in our hearts and help us always to follow a good process 1 that is redemptive but when redemptive steps fail the person is unwilling to respond to the pleading of the Spirit of God help our churches to have the courage to show true love and be willing to take a stand against sin and then your name be honored and glorified by them and these individuals ultimately say because they realize that Susan is that bad and they come to you and go with us as we guard who are places now thank you for hearing our prayer in Jesus' name in the. 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