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Redemptive Discipline: Concept & Application- Part 5

Royce Snyman


Royce Snyman

Ministerial Department Director and Coordinator of Evangelism for the Michigan Conference



  • June 19, 2017
    12:00 PM
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But I haven't it's been a great camp meeting not because of anything that any human being has done it does once again you have visited your campground here and we're so grateful for your Holy Spirit being present I pray a loving father that you will bless the flask glass of redemptive discipline your Holy Spirit will guide our conversation and that what we do will be done in such a way that will help us to be more loving and more kind and yet also stand for what's right and help our churches to grow and not weaken now your spirit be in control of what I say and our ears that we hear in Jesus' name. All right I want to today is going to be a pickup class to what we've been doing all week I'm not going to go back and summarize because the phases I think today a familiar and you've all heard me say anough repeating all that I've said here and so I'm not going to go back that way we talked about some pretty interesting things in this class and it just reminds us that we have some very real issues going on in our churches. Most of you that is the way I ask you to raise your hand yesterday were individuals who have leadership responsibilities in the church and I make sure I've been teaching 3 classes a day right now you all blend together. And just a little bit but how many of you are in in leadership in your local church. So some of you are basically laypeople in your church is that what I'm hearing lay people in your. We need that ban on that 1 seems a little noisy and there's a smaller group you mind turning that want to make sure I need that these 2 up here a competition and. Oh that's the 1 that was making all that noise. OK that's better I thought it was that 1 back there I'm going to even see that a little 1 down there. And yeah I understand that we'll put it back on afterwards. But we've talked about the these areas and some of you are are our members that don't have leadership responsibilities don't sit on the church board others of you are our leaders and you have been through these kinds of things how many of you have actually been through I'm great thank you though for asking we are good and I do have a bottle of water right here and I'm good with that as well and by the way I emptied out 1 of the bottle the things the water that we had and I gave it out to my whole class. While they had been so sweltering in that class and I said you know what I don't want to take that set the home so I gave it out more there but I got out of. How many of you actually gone through from my leadership perspective or even as a member then do a business meeting where a disciplinary situation as actually had to come to the church and even OK. Without identifying the church identifying the situation or whatever was a good experience or batiks good experience. That experience. Understand understand I'm I'm going to work I'm through a little thing here. And that's really what I want to hear and it is never a good experience because any time you have to do that is because sin is present and being lived out and somebody is not we're not not turning back on it. In that particular time do you think that it could have been done better than it was. How many of you at that particular time when that was going on said did we do everything we could with our process really redemptive or did it seem a little more Judge Mental note was off about Austrade you talked about Judge Mental we talked about redemption how many of you felt of a process that you were going through as a church as a leader or whatever at that particular time was really more judge mental. How many of you feel that the process you were going through had elements of redemptive or was we done and it was going our king or a I'm glad to do that that's good because of the interest is off of course in the with this or whether they felt it was redemptive or not and that is 1 of the challenges with that is that anytime we stand up to a situation we talked about 1 yesterday here and there's some element in that that we've not discussed in the last directly. In terms of in depth but whether that situation or any other 1 of the things that makes this especially difficult is when we're starting to deal with our children. When I'm a leader in the church when I'm the head deacon of the church or I'm a Sabbath school superintendent of the church and the person who is a member of the church that's decided to turn their backs to the backs on the ad in a full life style. Or OK let's keep it simple they decided to be a bank robber and I've got to deal with that and it's my child now we go from. Being a leader in the church to the emotions that come with that and you know that that happens in our churches often and that's 1 of the reasons why I believe a class like this is so valuable. Because our churches need to learn how to do discipline less just like parents need to learn and. I remember years ago when I was with my family and we were on a vacation for a pen we were in a place where there was a lot of people gathered together from the public that was not you know I was on vacation in a public place and I remember how we were some parent there that obviously had not learned. They were not part of our group I was a social worker. And I'm a pastor I tend to be an ostrich some want to tell you that right now right at my natural then. And the kind of situation was going on is where the parents were being bordering on abusive to their kids All right so my wife is not going to stand for that she's not a deal with it and I shouldn't need it and so on years ago I think today I might. I still have to build up the courage to do it but she stood up to them and she said that's not what you should be doing because the person said none of your business. All that happens in the church. Happened in the church. And where we have parents that are having a hard time learning out of this when their children in the church environment and they let the kids run all over and do all of that we need to be redemptive for those kids but we also need to be redemptive for the adults and they're turning their back on. And we need to have a process by which we're doing that but when it comes to these kinds of things you can get into conflicts because when the head deacon it's his son that is robbing banks and you're getting ready to disfellowship him and that's Let's get a little more real on this you know most of our kids don't go the way of robbing banks some of them say they don't but most don't. But there are some that get involved in pornography and then all the things that can come along with that and then I wind up in jail as a result of that situation. And they come on I list for the rest of their lives and the church has to take a stand against the knew they had taken and you know it's wrong and your child has done that and the church says we must take we must deal with this issue and we must we try we want to try to redeem them but the person continues to be involved in this we've got to deal with it on who is likely to become a reality how do we deal with conflict in the church and these kinds of situations whether it's a person robbing a bank a person who's breaking the Sabbath a person who is involved and some sort of a morality a person. Is not not very representative of the 7 The Athens church and things that we believe the Bible how do we deal with them when they come to be a problem in our church so I think this was and I want to tell you about 10 sand in his book I told you about it before but now we spend some time with it again just to remind you can sand essay and. I think I put that at the end of this somewhere I meant I did. I'm not sure about this I found this online and I was in a hurry when I was looking for it as I was getting my materials together and it dawned on me that I needed this and I thought it would be helpful and I learned a found it online and I looked at it and it told me that this was prepared by it's some Baptist Church. And I don't know if they got permission to do this or not from Cannes and the can send deserves the. Credit for this and so I thought at the end I put his name on it because I want you to know where it came from and the book it came out of and the author so that you might be able to get them value out of it I want to show you with some of the details on art and relationship by the way I used to the game today I think people talking to me about a conflict and I said you know make sure that these elements and here God is being rightly represented but it says here that did you know the 4 G.'s This is something that that. Boy or sand I don't know what you were to call the Esquire san. Mr sand developed and he called in the Borghese of. The snaking in that process and by the way before I get I just saw Dr Clayton come in Dr Clayton You're very good at following lousy instruction. Yet when you went and got my my Powerpack I really appreciated that it was really good and I forgot that there were 2 black power packs in there and he managed to pick you out which 1 to bring to me and which 1 not these thank you very much I really appreciate. I forgotten I had my my partner in there as well. So Ken san I developed this and this is how it works though so that you understand you're in the middle of a conflict let's say that you are you're having a conflict here. And Ray let's just say you and I are having a conflict right now and we're trying to sort this out 1 of the things that you know I'm a mediator now where you choose as a conflict that that is not the. Instructor to be having conflict so I just need some real representatives here just like Nathan green when he does a painting you know you've got to have somebody to actually to paint so that got that and that's up the 2 of you are in conflict what I'm going to do is I'm going to be coming to you and I'm going to be saying. There are some things we want to make sure that are present in this conflict as we're trying to work out the 1st 1 is we want to glorify God through this conflict right now that may sound strange a conflict is a way of life in a simple world and I write conflict happens in all of our churches are I please raise your hand if your church has never had a conflict and I want to come visit your church you do Razor and I now know it is the way it is a reality how can I please and honor the Lord in The Situation. So here cameras got me restricted here I really want to come out there but I gotta stay with the camera let's say Ray you're upset with Joe because Joe. At church last week he said he was talking to some people on the side and he was accusing you of stealing his tractor from burning out and and yada yada yada and he had this whole the whole thing in mind and he was doing all of that and he was just so upset and all the church members heard you in a in a disco races I didn't take your tractor you know I mean I did what I want with you a tractor I don't even I know you took it I saw you take it I got out of that whatever OK So Joe goes on and he finds that the tractor sitting at home just like it like it should be maybe somebody else took it but it wasn't Ray but he's crackers that he didn't even borrow it and now they borrow it yeah yeah yeah they did that you thought it was right that you don't correct it and raise upset. And raise trying to straighten this out and and I know Joe So I'm glad to pick on this way because he's not as well but Joe He's not going to say I'm sorry for all the see in Shine and Ray comes to him and says Joe I think you say that none of your business doesn't bother you does whatever I got my tractor back you're OK It's OK but Joe I've got people who heard you say that they think I took it directly to bed so what Whatever Now that's the that's the conflict is going on there and he's not about to back down and raised in looking like he stole a cracker what he did and church members are now getting on Facebook and the. CHILDREN AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON IT'S GOING. So now the pastor gets involved or they help her get involved and and says All right guys we need. Joe reluctantly OK I'm going to ominous and. Then I want to 1 of the things I'm going to say to Ray and Joe is on Venice A in this conflict right now how are we going to go on and honor him and war. And you tell me in this conflict how could this possibly become something that honors and glorifies God I'm sorry if there's healing in the relationship what does that do that turn around turns around and glorifies God doesn't it to lift that up then you have a look on your face like I left something or lost sons and your wife. Oh well somebody at the bread I'm about oh. OK I don't see either 1 of those so I'm not sure. I could be gone too far I wouldn't look down it just in case somebody took it out and and took it down to safety sometimes they will do that to hold down. So that healing that can take place from this does that give glory to God OK how does that and healing glory to God I'm sorry. Keep going. So there's a couple of things that happen and I think it can Sandy actually uses illustration in relationship to that yet is him and this is historic. He said he had a. I mean it was either a a colleague with a colleague or somebody that he knew there was a colleague and she was an attorney and he'd been inviting him to her to to come to their church and finally 1 day this colleague decided to come to church and would you go if not accept them the church sounds just like 1 though. And. At the church service the pastor get the and and he says you all I need I need to apologize to congregate because last week you saw me and brother so and so. In a pretty heated argument over something yada yada whatever. And he said I want you to know that that I was wrong and wrong and I made a real mistake and that brother. And I have connected and reconciled and work that whole situation out and it's behind us and we're done and we're brothers in the Lord again and all intensive Wyvis we. Why did the pastor have to get up and say that I finally got this colleague of mine to come to church and what is a pastor doing is showing all his dirty laundry so to speak and how bad a person is and how he does this and so they're talking later afterwards and and can send consensus I'm so sorry I'm so and this is what she says I thought that was sent. She says that was that was terrific. Because people can get in in disagreements and whatever but when when I can see that God is working enough to correct problems that tells me this is a real place where God is real and God is working really in people's lives and changing their line we are not willing to the what God wants us to be we are real sinners and sometimes we need to correct those problems and those problems give glory to God when we let God have the glory for correcting that problem. You know I'm really glad he said that because I haven't really addressed that. But we as leaders in our churches need to be teaching our people how to handle media. Media literally killing people. Literally killing people today and because of the way people are being treated and it's happening in the church not just out of. And when when internal family church family issues begin to get out on Facebook and start to involve Now most people have Facebook friends and then most of us have friends that are not 7 then and when you start talking about the stuff on Facebook an even if they even if it's a close thing within the church it still is evil it. Is gossip of the worst kind and utilizing that we should be having those kinds of conversations now you know that why you came to this class but start teaching people in the church and perhaps even inviting the pastor to talk about it and how to correct those problems because they are evil we don't want the natural. Travelers list don't let it be on Facebook Thank you Joe and Ray for not putting on Facebook. The 2nd the 2nd aspect of this is so let me go back to the so it's clear so I'm saying to you Joe you've been upset with with Ryan he's upset with you because of what you said that you've not made it right with you but Joe what I'm really concerned about is what are we going to do in the situation on the Gore. And I'm saying to you Ray you know we've got to we've got to settle this thing what are we going to do that actually going to correct this this problem and sort of behind us for the weekend or both of you are involved in the conference and we need both of you to come to that point and so that's what our time is going to be spent for in today is working to glorify God I take to look at the checklist of so you can take a look at the checklist under glorify God and look at some of the things that are there. You as a individual Joe use an individual re-using individual the rest of us are asking this question striving earnestly diligently and continually live at peace with those around me and I doing that. Remember that Jesus reputation is affected by the way I get along with others you are recognized for guarding against Satan schemes and false teachings which are designed to promote selfishness and say conflict and I what's happening with me in regard to that man you see what's happening here when I'm bringing this to Joe And let's face it Joe you the problem. You accuse him of stealing another listen to me. Anyway. You play your part too well Joe is. The issue here is that I'm coming to you and I'm asking you as a Christian to step back from your problem long enough now and Ray to if you got to ask 1 of my can show me doing to contribute and raise cases go back and say Ray you did put it on Facebook so you shouldn't run and York defending yourself because Joe is been accusing it and you put it on Facebook so you're contributing to the problem and you're shame on us. So I'm saying to you both how are these things being than assisted in your life is that this is a tool that you can use in working with people and if your church is even figured out a way to begin to deal with conflict before come you can you can everybody in the church that a conflict arises this is a tool use I mean you can use that as a way to bring it so you know you can say. Joe you know that in our church or 6 months ago we had a training class where we were talking about how to correct a conflict with a come in the lights weren't going for them and we we said that at a concert the rises were going to step back and start asking ourself and question and make sure that we're not contributing to this in a way that dishonors got. And so now that it's come Here's a checklist I want you to start stepping back from the problem long enough and ask yourself am I trusting in God and trust in God is in control working for my good in the good of others even when I must undergo suffering and that might be raising that more bang God praise giving God praise and thanks for his goodness and help another words what we're doing is stepping back here and we're asking ourselves how this is affecting my relationship with God and am I doing that which honors and glorifies God am I doing that that's what happened here and so that's what the section is all that you understand what's happening is you grasp what this tool is trying to accomplish OK let's go to that you didn't raise your hand you get it you're going to have a question about this. Yes absolutely absolutely and the reason we're doing this is not to supersede the Spirit of God but to give us a tool by which we we're not professional counselors. But we're stepping in here to try to find ways of looking back and making sure that we're not contributing to the problem helping the people that are struggling. OK the 2nd G. is to get the log out of your I aren't I'm so sorry you didn't realize that checklist was there you're probably wondering where we are think she's figured out where it is great. The 2nd is get the log out of your eye and we have to be willing to do that. Some of the questions here the basic thing is decide whether something is really worth fighting over with God's help I will define the issues and decide how they are related and deal only with the issues that are too important to be overlooked beginning usually with personal issues overlook minor offenses. Back an expat changed my attitude by recalling our God has forgiven me in general towards others you see what you and I don't know about this problem with Ray and Joe is you just heard Joe accusing Ray of stealing his practice and you don't realize that there's a history there Ray's been stealing practice from Joe for the last several years and only recently has re-equipped stealing tractors from Joe Now he was borrowing them all the time but they just never got back to him. And that's really the history behind the situation and so Joe when he made this accusation he's not crazy not just gone off the deep end he's. A good person but he been members all the tractors the Giotto I mean the great took from him and he's sure he saw a ray back in his yard again taking a tractor out of his yard you must be neighbors. And so getting the lobby out of your eyes again and getting to the going back to the bottom of the situation and finding out what's going on and Joe remembers all the things in the back anything but brain isn't such a scoundrel and he's done all these things and that's why I was feeling that way but Joe the question is Is there anything in your life. That could be possibly blocking this here you've got a past history. But what happened in the past that you haven't forgiven here is there's something going on in your life you are so quick to accuse him of. And you know it didn't because it's there and it was after church and your tractor was found back in your yard and you know you just left him there 5 minutes ago he couldn't have gotten the tractor back and you are so with him so is there something that you need to forgive that's been causing this problem but I'm trying to illustrate this in the best way that I can but to help us realize the stool begins help us to get to the bottom of conflict and to try to spine solutions and working through with it I'm not going to deal with all the pieces and I just want to present this to this to sect to other sections here 1st of all before talking to others about their wrongs with God's help I will ask myself these things before I do that because part of what's giving glory to God is me learning not to accuse Ray of something when he didn't do it and not to sound off and the crazy because they didn't cause these kinds of trouble and then when I see that I have sinned with God's help I will repent I'll confess my sin and I'll change my attitude and behavior by praying the guard for God's help and helping right in this situation you see what we're doing here folks. Is we're trying to make this conflict resolution in Syria chore will. Activity of the church. We have in our churches for the most part we ignore conflict which is why WOULD NOT doing redemptive discipline because we know the redemptive discipline is likely to bring conflict. We know it's the head deacon son that having this this problem and if we address it you know I'm the head elder of the church and I go and talk to the deacon the head deacon of the church and tell him you know we've got to do something about this and this is going to say you know what it's none of your business leave it alone and or the Dedekind says. You know what if we do anything about this and my son leaves the church is go be your fall because the my son left the church it's going to be your fault that he's not in the kingdom of heaven you just leave it alone and let the Lord take care of it well the problem is. Making a mockery of God by his lifestyle and the community knows all about it now folks I can tell you as an editorial director permission from that I know of some churches. Where the communities know the dirty laundry that is going on. And they are asking the community asking the question what's going on. How is it possible that this could be going on in the so-called Christian Church in this. And the church as we've just been doing anything about. And when I can tell you a situation that developed where the pastor finally stood up to that particular situation in the local church and then the church members started to chew on the past and I'm talking about the kinds of stuff that I know that you would react with disgust and that the public reaction with discussed about it was present in the local church and the local church when it came up people started to beat up the pastor and others because of what they were doing because it involves family. I can tell you that story but I'm not going to do it I don't want to bring it out here and disrupt somebody else of value these are real issues that really do have is because the church for years and not been dealing with that problem you have any problems like that in your teacher. You know if you do you know what's going on and things need to be rectified and corrected and you just not have the tools or 1 of the tools you haven't had the church is not been willing to stand up and deal with the issues because of the potential conflict you think I'm right in my mind and I'm going in the real world here or am I going down a track where you're saying that's. Not an issue in most of our. Day the major issues in our churches All right let me keep going the next G.E. is go and I'm talking to this these guys here. And it's go in show your brother his fall the 1 that he waiting that we've been talking all about but there are a couple principles that that are now you know that consent is brought out here that are helpful in working with this but this is why Ray did go to Joe and try to correct that it wasn't getting corrected and so now we've had to bring in some other individuals that are involved and when I learned someone as someone something against me I'll go to that person and talk about it even if I don't believe that I've done anything wrong part of this is when I'm teaching a church how to resolve conflict and I'm saying cut conflict as in even come in yet but since I know it's going to come to your church I'm telling you that if you are 1 of the members of this church and you see that conflict you want to ask yourself these questions about whether these things are beginning to affect you and how they're involved and how you are involved in this particular items and if you see that there's a problem developing in in the church help a brother to go to a brother help a sister to go to a brother a sister help a brother to go to a sister where there's a conflict going on and get that situation corrected and if I'm involved in it I'm a think sure that I'm following Matthew aging and the last 1 is going to be reconciled when I forgive someone with God's help I will make these promises are right now this 1 get down to where the hard work sometimes comes in. Because when you're working with people in conflict there's sometimes when people don't 1 of the 1 of the record reconcile they don't want the situation be rectified So let's talk about Ray and Joe here for a moment and right he wants to get this thing straightened out and he wants it corrected and right now the church is really kind of gotten the word Yeah raided and take the tractor and and all of that and then that part of it settling down to Joe's still upset Joe still said a re about the past and Joe is just having a hard time letting it go right now and part of it is because Joe is embarrassed because he if you Joe ran taking the tractor and he didn't take the tractor Now Joe's looking really bad and something people don't like to look bad do that and sometimes they'll withdraw and they'll become in this kind of this kind of situation and now the question that we've got to ask and I'm going to play this 2 way the 1st part of the. Brain Joe want to give you probably ask is so angry about he won't correct are these bill the live on the kind of thing the question now for a reg going to be willing to forgive him and let it go. Rain they say will he need to make it right well Miladi in not going to a re-ask to say well I'm willing to forgive and let it go and I'm wrong but I'm going to move on now if it leaves a situation where that conflict in that in essence is still there in Gray has set it aside and gone and George knows about it it might even be that someone has something in public about the Joe still going to hold on to this I can't force Joe to forget about the past and correct it can I So Joe chooses to do that that there aren't Let's leave that for more than interesting question. They dent of discipline we disciplined people who have someone who has an affair someone who robs a bank we discipline someone who as. A working on the Sabbath is developed an immoral lifestyle we discipline someone who would take the name of God in vain or or break the 1st or 2nd commandment as idols in their house and bows down to them don't see much of that today. Is there and more subtle as we disappoint all we're all kinds of them what are we going to do about Joe. We're going to. Well of a myth make it easy because the way you asked it could make a real complicated and I'm going to make it I'm going to make it a little a little easier to answer that question yeah he still kind of stirring up trouble you know he's not running any banks not having an affair is not what everybody is just kind of disruptive in the church and already still upset about it making a big dealings all over Facebook about it and all I can does the church should the church must the church do anything about it think to me Tell me what you think. You had professional career or in your career what. You're working with salespeople you've got to correct those conflicts that might be coming. OK OK. I don't know. I'm ranting a stinky issue a little bit if having your glasses I'm trying to figure out if that means anything. Because I'm being a little I'm being a little whatever Today when I'm asking some questions improper trying to open the door I know this is being recorded and maybe when I get done I race it all and not let anybody listen to this kind of thing I want you to take your I when you take this material that I gave because you got your notebooks and you got all the stuff that I put into there before take the church manual section out of you don't have the church manual section I have a copy of it up here. I show done them in different colors but I did them all in white it was easy that way that's the 1 yeah it looks like this so that you know what it looks like. There's a planet of the top it's a 7 and a church manual I want you to take a look at this for a moment. Yeah yeah yeah look at the number 1 let me just go through these reasons 0 quick without bogging down too far and then all of the faith in the fundamentals of the Gospel and the fundamental belief that church teaching doctrines contrary to same I we all get that violation of the law of God Well we all get that too but sometimes we haven't thought much about profanity when thought about gambling I know of people in the church I know of people in the 7th Avenue Church that won the lottery in Michigan and then gave some of the money to the church. Of God. Yeah they did. Yep no violation of the commandment of the law of God number 3 which reads I should not commit adultery so we're getting the marriage issue and all of that for fornication OK various forms of whatever by the production use doesn't preserve or not they're active and you know yeah we get that 6 remarriage of a divorce person except the spouse whatever 7 physical violence including violence in the family a fraud a willfulness servant station the servants and 9 this orderly condo with brings reproach upon the church can and here and for taking part in a vice of or what disloyal movement organization 11 persistent refusal to recognize constitute a church authority or to submit to order and discipline 12 you know the items that are there. There are a couple areas in here I'm not trying to create more areas for display in the church so I want you to understand but what I am talking about here is the need for the church to recognize that when there are serious conflicts in the church and there are individuals that are perpetuating that conflict and stirring up the local church somebody has got to do something about it and somebody has got to work to stop that conflict and if Joe is so rebellious that he's not listening to to counsel and he's not allowing this to come to an end and it's stirring people up in the church what are going to do let the church split because of Joe's rebellion No we've got to deal with that my basic point of all I want to make here any other for the bottom. You know we could do that I don't see that. Yeah I understand. Available. Yeah there you go good negotiator. Or a pleasure thank you for being willing to participate in this little discussion on. The issue of forgiveness is a big deal in a local church and we don't discipline people who have not forgiven people but I've had people in my church. Have harbored bitterness against people a jerk or years 30 years 2030 years and upset with people for what somebody did and in some cases it's been family members I know of family members who haven't talked to mother or father. And they're still in the same church go figure right. And they've not encountered and they've not worked through this issue and choose not to work through that issue is. Not a disciplinary issue in that sense but it is a conversion issue because when you read what Jesus says about forgiving Bible makes it abundantly clear that if you don't forgive your brother or your sister or your mother or your father or something way in the past or whenever you're not going to be in the Kingdom of Heaven why because Jesus' prayer was forgive me as I forgive right because if I have not learned to program. Then God not really working in my heart because I'm not allowed in the world. When. I didn't. Yes. And to be able to correct that that's part of why the church families who need to learn how about this process will now as we've been talking about this I want to move this back down into the local church and the churches you represent how many of you from Michigan churches. What do you think you need some ideas of what you think can be done proactively to begin to address the issues before they become an issue what do you think you could do in your local church what ideas come to your mind from listening to this class what what questions are going on in your mind but let's start 1st of all with what are some of the things that you would like to to be able to do or do you need help from the conference on whatever thinking I want to start pushing this back to the local church. Was. Did anybody in that situation actually say I've been upset with you or and and and a lot of correcting. I don't mean you but I mean other people in the church. Or. Now. 1 caution. What I like about that that's a practical application of working to try to to heal things in the church over a period diamond work through the 1 caution is sometimes when you know we're all tempted to whatever we've got to be careful what we start sharing with other people. And all of what makes that clear to in ministry of healing she talks about those private things because sometimes you know if I've been if I've been jealous of somebody new car or whatever and then I go and talk to them about being jealous about that that new car and all and that person starts thinking I wonder what else they're jealous of you know sometimes we've got to be careful we don't plant ideas and people minds that actually response like rather than do it to me the special value of doing something like that is when there has been a conflict that open everybody knows about that need to be rectified or or even even if it the other people don't know about it but it's between us and I need to correct it or if it's a situation where I said something and you took it as an A as an offense and you've been at 7 with me the whole gun OK And then in a situation like that you say to me you know I've been upset because of what you said about me like Joe said. You know I would do a show I didn't know that I didn't realize about her and that I'd said then what I was saying was thinking that a totally other conflicts are current that and you probably should have come to me you should have come to me before the why did you hold it. And you understand what I'm saying so those kind of situations and really. Really can be helpful all right I appreciated that I saw her hand yeah. There are times when it should be it. Our other thoughts here what what how could you take the principles we've been talking back here to your local church make a practical now you don't just come here for a class in theory how are you going to translate this back into your local church leaders that raise your hand how are you going to take it back to your local. Maybe you think tell me how you think about how would you do that. You know a pastor that you could do that work. I don't know how many of you know Michel this use of 1 of the pastors why and do that OK So you're saying that 1 of the ways that you can do that is by start being proactive back in your local church and working with the leadership of the church the elders maybe meeting with a board of elders and talking to them about these kinds of things before they become a problem or do develop the thank you so much. All right that's good yes please. But the body the board of elders is especially important in relationship to be able to control our control but to mitigate these things and to work through them as they begin to happen you know what I'm teaching 3 classes their minds we're trying to patch are 3 churches the same time and I can't keep everything straight from 1 to the other because you're busy doing that but when you're the elder of the leader in a local church you do have a pulse of what's going on in most cases you're paying attention to what's happening and when we have North things that are going on and not dealing with it in an appropriate way the opposite Illustrated about it happens and by the way the people sitting in my pew thing really happen and you know that right now I mean it really happens I don't think I've ever had it happened in the I think about the My mom my wife had and I remember. 1 of our conference treasurers a few years ago even with a walk in His wife came to a journal babbles and they sat down somewhere and somebody came along and says I'm sorry but you're sitting in my view. And then our mission if we are getting there are at that that is sitting in the pew we're talking about a conference later I don't care whether it is or not as a matter of fact I'm glad it was accomplished later and not a visitor but you know what happened to a visitor as well and they probably never came back again because they will worry you that in 1 of them somebody else of you and. Here's what I'm trying to say to you now please don't take this class and just simply make it another class think about how you're going to apply this back in your local church if you are an elder are you going to take this back to your board of elders if you're on the board are you going to talk about of the board and say what are we going with you to be proactive because there are conflicts in our church but they there are times when it could be worse than that and the issues it was going to wait until a conflict that common it's too late so I'm looking for ideas of ways that you might be able apply it in your journey. Right order. So the issue there what you were trying to do is you're applying redemptive discipline the issue is everybody knows of the smoking and they know that they got that problem in there but what you're trying to do is every As long as there's progress being made that you're trying to work redemptive lady in relationship at some point if he doesn't you've got to deal with it just have to deal out of why you're not being consistent with church but in the meantime you are dealing with it because by not dealing with it there are people that are working on it and they're saying what there was of them you don't care about them. Right all right you all are you thinking are you what's going on here and I know it's a last seminar and last few minutes of us that last seminar in your mind is already thinking about supper and all how are you going to translate this into your local jeweler. Yes OK Let's let's talk about the context of that here we are we're in grow Michigan we're talking about Bible study offer dot com We're wanting our churches to grow and develop we're putting these tools in the place we're talking about and not Revelation and the public of Angelus take meetings coming on why in the world would I want to talk about this on having a hard time getting people to do Bible studies and I'm having a hard time getting ready for unlock revelation pastor why do you want me to do it help me out why do I want you to do this what's the right context to try to deal with it. I couldn't a set of better myself. Because we've got challenges going on in our churches and we're not addressing God cannot bless us and bringing people into our church in the problems or I mean you know I'm talking about the moral problems and all the others we're going to have to work on and time but we can't ignore these things or simple reasons as Dr Clayton said in relationship to people that come in and they're trying to quit smoking and you've got somebody that smoking and you're trying to tell him to quit but why are you dealing with that and why can't I be baptized and you're doing that and so on and so forth but what about the fact that there are times when there are squabbles and there are things going on in your church and you know you've got a real fight going on and then you want to try to bring church members into that that you're not dealing with it because you have got your head in the sand ostrich wise or you're just you're not you don't know how to deal with it and you don't have the jewel in place and those things are not happening I can you know what I'll never be the ministerial director because you'll learn a lot about what's going on in the church and the challenges that are out there and people are having a hard time getting along with each other and it's not just pastor on member it many times member on member and the conflicts that are going on and how they're beating up on the people call material director and they say you know what I'm trying to go to this church but the people are so nasty to me I just don't even want to go that charge anymore now why would you have an evangelist igniting while that problem is going on. Now I've said that to make a point don't stop having evangelists they need but solve the problem so that it doesn't spill over and other people get caught up and do it and people don't want to be part of this church. Can fans use this illustration if the church had not learned how to resolve that problem in the pastor and that the church member had not resolve that problem and that the discussion was the pastor getting up in front of George and saying you know brother so it's always been said these bad things about me last week and I hope that you will deal with him and that person that come here I am with MS and with Mr Santa nerd that why would they want to come back. I theory and I'm a comedian and I can raise your hands again if you sit on your church or. Those of you raise your hand because you sit on the church or. Does it make sense to you. That allowing these conflicts to go on in your church is not the responsibility of the pastor but is the responsibility of the 1st order of. If you get what I'm saying and I'm talking to leaders in the church if you don't if you don't mean to be a you don't work to stop the problems are there who's responsible. I'm being real What's that I mean. You're right I knew that from the beginning so for the record the minister over IT director is responsible for all the problems of all when you're. So. So what I mean what I'm saying to you don't allow that to happen you know. But even better start working in your church 1 of this class has been part of to see class series that I've been teaching this week that are focused on leadership notices then under the category of leadership in advertising this year 1 of my work my goal and my responsibility is as the ministerial director. Is to help leaders become really if you're not challenged as a leader to be a leader then I'm not doing my job I did not generate this class or decide to teach this class for the purpose of making you feel comfortable and then you thought you came to the class because you didn't come to a dent of discipline class thinking either you were going to go out of your comfortable I know you did and I'm challenging you as a leader that only leaders who are making changes are making a difference if the church is the same when you got done with your leadership role as a was when you came in then you were leading you would for filling your role you should be questioning now I know there are going to be people who come in and say What's with you what do you have to do to upset everything we were doing just fine no you weren't there were problems that were going on things are going just fine and they aren't there now use good processes don't come into the business meeting and start saying you all are bickering with each other and fight that not where you deal with it and even in a board because chances are they might be family members that are part of whatever conflict but find the right people to begin to connect with and begin to develop a process by which you begin to solve problems start with a pastor and say Pastor you know there are some challenges in here start with the head elder maybe. It's right nor reminded us that that the bastards are busy says Stop with the head elder and say how can we work to begin to teach people to deal with this and if that held a head elder is not willing to be a leader challenge them to be a leader and say Look the you not I'm not perfect here but you're the leader in the church God wants you to lead this church and how to be able to deal with these so I'm I'm telling you you have the tools you have the ability you have the position as leaders in the church to be able to deal with them now those of you didn't raise your hand you're not off the hook you're not off the hook because you're a member of God's church you're disciple of the church and of the leaders are not leading then you need to come and prayerfully start with prayer elders leaders non leaders you also always start with her and make it a matter of career be serious about prayer and say Lord how are we going to stop this issue of if we don't stop this the Latter Rain cannot be poured out and it has to come from the Spirit of God working with us but God can't give us His Spirit when the conflicts are being ignored that are in the church and he says I can't do this with you I can't do this with you until you say I can't give you the Holy Spirit until you're serious enough about your relationship as a church family to begin to address these issues and correct the problem all right OK You had your hands up and then we need a quick. I don't remember. Many me. Wonder. You. Know. You just made a point that a great place. To gather. 1 of the things that I'm seeking to challenge you with and why I've spent the last few minutes in pushing you is because you don't want to just go out of here with blank stares you want to ask yourself what is it going to take in the church to be able to address these issues and 1 of the reasons that even when the church board deals with it when the rest of the church is not on board that you have these conflicts then begin to generate is because there's not been an education process in that local church about how we go about dealing with them whether the church is small or large somebody has to begin teaching the church how to work through problems it's like if you're a counselor and you're dealing with parents who had nobody ever taught them out of be a parent and these parents actually want to learn how to be a parent somebody has got to teach them how to do that because their parents didn't teach them they come from a whole that just didn't get that and they don't know how to go about doing that and so somebody now is trying to teach them we need to teach a church how to become. A family and how to correct problems when they arise in the family and if we haven't been doing it we need to say we haven't been doing it we haven't been doing the right thing we need to step up and begin to implement the tool So goal that I've had I think. You are beginning to understand and I think many of you pick it up if not all and that is the goal is that number 1 you're equipped to understand what redemptive discipline is what the processes are what the 2 are that you can utilize in order to be able to work redemptive Lee in your church but I also want to ask you to pray and to think about how you're going to teach your church about that be proactive about that process before it already happened and to be able to to work. And also teach when it does happen because it's going to be an ongoing process people aren't always going to be a part of that or even want to hear it and it's going to be an ongoing thank you for being here it's going to be been a great group I don't forget the survey that I gave you the out of out of this class go for you to help you get tools to work with those the kinds of things that I want to know about you have ideas of what we could do better in the future are all of that I'm looking for so please be sure to do that I'm going to have a closing prayer and as you fill that survey out just turn it over leave it on the table I'll pick them up from you and again thank you have a wonderful rest of the camp meeting so hard to believe where we're at but it's not over yet and I know that you'll enjoy our Bradshaw and his presentation and the blast and then you also the challenges like me in my walk with. Her father we have talked together we study together and as we have prayed over this issue with them to do 1 in conflict management in the local church we realise that it broader than we wish it were but the need is also serious that we need to be able to correct the problems in our church so that we become brothers and sisters who love 1 another and even when things don't go right we have a way of being able to rectify those problems and wreck reconcile our relationship I pray that each person that's been in the last well. Be able to finding you the wisdom the strength the direction to be able to build a stronger church because they are willing to address the. Thank you for Jesus that is specially reconciled us to heaven when we help others experience the same Jesus in. 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