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Baptizing the Devil

Clifford Goldstein
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A look at the issues of faith and science and how we can deal with the challenges that science presents, not only to our own faith, but also to our witness.


Clifford Goldstein

Editor of the Adult Sabbath School Ministries Quarterly




  • August 3, 2018
    3:30 PM


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Father I thank you for the opportunity to be here I thank you for the people that have come and I just pray Lord that all the words will be true and that they will be encouraging and that we will walk away with greater reasons for faith amid a world where if possible even the very elect can be deceived and we see every day in our own eyes the reality of that and I just pray in some small way we could help fight against that here today in Jesus name I pray Amen all right in this year make sure in the right place Clifford Goldstein so on I was baptized in the devil on the editor of the bolt Bible study guide the Sabbath school quarterly in also if Of author of this book it's called baptizing the devil evolution in the seduction of Christianity and I spent 5 years on this 3 years 3 and a half years just reading and then a year and a half writing and my talk is based on things from the book I've pulled sections from it I get into some things that are not in the book and so forth if you're in or if this if you're interested in this you cannot think they're selling the books at the A.B.C. here you can buy it on Amazon you can download it whatever works for you you might not have a problem with this you might know some people go ahead oh graffiti in the Holy of Holies OK Well OK Well thank you for here but anyway anyway if you have an issue and even if you're not struggling with this question and you know you might meet others well because basically what I'm going to say what I'm saying here. And I guess I already had this somewhere in here but I'm going to start out with this the position I'm tight with with we take our position on creation basically we're saying that the vast majority. Of the world's smartest people the Ph D. S. the post-docs the Nobel Prize winners I mean we're talking about the cream of the crop the Ph D.'s in chemistry in physics in biology in a straw man to me I mean we're just talking some of the world's smartest people best educated people. Smart people actually very well they know their field basically I'm saying that the vast vast vast majority of them are dead wrong are dead wrong about creation now that could be difficult to grasp but I imagine most of us here are 7th Day Adventists OK if you're not well you ought to be OK But anyway that's another issue that was me but you've got to you've got to make this your own you know I mean I can't think anything of the world worse to be a 7th Day Adventist the not be born again and you know it's the worst religion in the world I think to being if you're not born again if you're born again and had a conversion experience I don't know where else to be but but anyway think about this for a minute just as a powerful were 7th Day Adventists if there's anything we know biblically there's anything that's a no brainer from Scripture is the validity of the 7th day sabbath OK now. How many of the world's greatest feel login it's OK The Ph D.'s the post-docs the experts in Old Testament New Testament and in our roommate Ugaritic Hebrew Greek the world's greatest Bible scholars the smartest people the smartest Bible scholars in the world the experts the wind and the dime the Fed how many of them are right on the Sabbath the vast vast majority are not right on they might even see it all right well technically you're right but it doesn't matter or whatever well that's wrong OK So anyway I use that. Simply as a as an analogy to see the point OK the world's smartest people the experts they're wrong here's an 1 example where we could see where there were more on anyway but I way I want to start I want to spend 5 minutes telling a little bit about my conversion story because it does fit it does fit right in I grew up I grew up in a secular Jewish home I joke the way they kept the holidays in my family you could characterize it like they try to kill us they failed Let's eat OK OK That was the extent of it OK and I grew up secular and I was raised secular and I was educated secular but I was always I have this thing in me I was a seeker I was a so it hit me 1 day about 21 years old that truth had to exist there was a world there was a reality there something here something had to explain it. And whatever that was that explained it that was the truth OK there was a universe where I wasn't looking for God I wasn't looking for hope I wasn't looking for peace I was in a pure quest for truth regardless of what it was if the truth was we were all we were you know we are. Creatures there's a guy from England who's got a paper he wrote saying we don't even exist we're just computer algorithms in a race and what you know he's got some really good arguments he's got some good arguments so I was just looking for truth no matter what and then I had some experiences at 1 point I said God if you exist I need a sign OK now a little bit I don't know I knew nothing about the Bible and little did I know what Scripture says Greeks seek for wisdom Jews see for a sign I don't know that I don't know I don't know the Bible I never read the Bible I didn't know the Bible I had no idea about that but I was standing on a street in Paris I was there a while back with my wife who's heard me tell this story for decades and I said Honey I think I was standing right here right around this spot when I said all right God if you're there I need a sign and within 2 weeks I met somebody who had my same main Clifford Goldstein. He came from Miami Beach I had come from Miami Beach he was in the same cookbooks in Israel that I had been living in I had been gone for months he was in the same room that I had been in when I was on the books there were 2 beds in the room he was sleeping in the sane bed I was in and I'm talking to him and I see a bunch of books on a bookshelf the book shelf over the bed and they were all born sure my old books that I had left and I should ogres where I had been gone I've been gone about 2 months I should quit if you like my books he says What are you talking about he says those are all my books and I go we have some of the same books and I looked at him said Cliff are you a writer and he says Yes I've come to Israel to write I lived on Israel on the blitz a year writing there and then when I was on the kibbutz I had a blonde Danish girlfriend named Tina We're talking this girl walks in the room I never saw her before she was blonde she was from Denmark and her name was Tina OK so I said God OK this is exactly what happened so I got the sign I still wasn't converted but I suddenly wow there was a little more out to reality than I had been taught in high school chemistry OK well then I still though wasn't converted Well a few weeks later I had spent 2 and a half years of my life writing a novel this novel was my life nothing else mattered to me I put 2 and a half years into this novel and right about the same time too I was having these occult experiences and I started thinking wow between meeting my double. You know I knew there was something else out there and then having these occult experiences I thought man there's something I'm going to go study of the cult and I'm on my way over to the library to get a book on the occult to study that it called and I just happen to stop at a health food store and this guy warns me about the a call to talking about devil and so on and I laugh him off and he says read this book so he gives me a book and I make a long story short I get this book on the occult that I read I read the 1st chapter because I can check it out when I got it out of the library so I just got this a cult book I practice the occult technique for the 1st time in my life and I'm walking through the library with the book the guy handed me in the health food store cold book in 1 hand 1st time in my life the other book the great controversy OK but the bottom line was 2 nights later I was in my room working on my novel that night the Lord Jesus Christ came to me 1979 he said Cliff you have been playing with me long enough if you want me tonight burn your novel burn your novel OK if you can find the whole story online Goldstein conversion but in the bottom I was I burned my novel that night I became a born again believer OK Now the reason I'm telling you this story is you'll notice there was nothing really intellectual about this story there was nothing I wasn't you know studying logic you know boom boom boom boom I got converted totally on an exterior and you know that night I burned the book and was born again if you would have told me I was a sinner I would have looked like what are you talking about what I mean and I mean I knew nothing but it was very interesting the very next day I went back to that health food store and those avenues gave me a Bible study on Daniel to. And I'm telling you now almost 40 years later Daniel 2 still stands as an anchor of rational objective proof is too strong of a word but powerful powerful evidence but anyway the reason I brought that up is I became a believer totally through an experience OK I didn't work my way through it maybe others have and now that I brought that up too because when I they 1st asked me to do this talk at 1st they wanted to ask how can you use science to prove your faith and I was a little uncomfortable with that. Because I hope I want to show you that it doesn't work that way you don't really I firstly I guess maybe I've read too much philosophy I don't know how you prove anything and you know I really am at a loss how you ultimately pro do you prove your proofs OK if you're going to get right now in a word and science you've got to be very careful with science saying you've proved it was science because scientific theories tend to have a short half life they tend to expire and if you built your faith on this and then it's kicked out from underneath you you know so I think in the end you can. The important point here is all to MIT and we need our own experience with the Lord as well I had a friend at work while back lost his daughter and he said to me says well you know it's so easy to just throw everything out and he says but what do I do with my experience it's. So anyway I bring that up because we have to be careful using any of you we need we have the Word of God we have our experience with God and that's what our faith needs to rest on if you try to rest on science or these other things you can get it in trouble but anyway let me come back to where I was born again and I said I don't even know I was a sinner and I met these Adventists and a health food store I didn't know they were 7th Day Adventists it. Going to meant anything to me had they told me what they were doing and I remember it was very hard getting born again right before my 24th birthday I had the entire foundation of almost everything I had believed and been raised on kicked out from underneath me. I mean it was very humbling to sit there and think that most almost everything I would believe my whole life turned out to be wrong OK and it was it took me it was a quiet adjustment to make but I remember too the 1 thing that I struggle is very funny I really struggled with was evolution and I remember thinking how could I how could I I mean it's all I was taught was evolution I remember in the 5th grade I still remember in the 5th grade having these textbooks and they showed like a a shallow pool and then 1 cell and then a jellyfish and then a fish and then an amphibian and then these different and then some hominid and a line was drawn through it. And that was it never questioned it. And I remember in 1 3rd grade biology class at Nautilus junior high school and by the way for what it's worth I found out a few years ago that Doug Batchelor and I were both unordered list junior high school at the same time they're that amazing That is amazing I said John I don't I don't recognize your warrior hair differently back then. But I remember in the 9th grade I thought I was hot stuff because I knew what ontogeny recapitulates phylogeny years but she you do not even know it that is and this is this idea that even though it had been discredited decades earlier it was the idea that if you look at an embryo you look at an embryo the embryo goes through the various phases of evolution it's got gills it's got I mean this was proven decades a group earlier to be a hoax and here I was in 1969 being taught it and then I remember in college I never did much in science but I Everything was taught on the assumption of evolution and the point was it never and my mom and to question it because it was never taught in a way that you would question it it was just taught this is it this is what we know this is science science has proved it no question about it and you know in the twenty's in the 20th century there was a famous philosopher he once said what science cannot tell us mankind cannot know. OK And that's the idea that only science could lead to truth I mean how many of you gee there's this idea it's called scientism most of us are to a certain degree under the lure of scientism and it's pretty much the idea that science is the only pure way to come to a knowledge of truth and in reality if it's a anti-science if it's against science of science says opposite it can't or I mean how many of you have ever been in a debate or discussion and they say to you but it's science and then once the a media it the course of the then the immediate thing is you're supposed to bow down and Gena flecked before it and surrender all recalcitrant views to it because well it's science and look at what science has gone you know sure 100 years ago or a couple 100 years ago they might have burned some unfortunate old woman selling herbs in a marketplace they might have burned or is a witch because she's They said she started a famine that could be now understood because at different temperatures over the ocean OK or that you know the Incas sphere Jaguars were eating the moon this is something that we could better explain by a lunar eclipse OK but see these these things you know these don't prove these things only prove the ignorance of human beings OK and so forth thanks to the atom we are the science we split the atom gone to the moon I just read a poem the other day by W.H. Auden called The Christmas Oratorio. And it's quite good and he's got I think it's Herod speaking and he mixes the past in the present and he's trying to talk about how I want to live in a day and age he wants to get out of the day and age where mothers give birth to twins are put to death where the best cuts of meat are reserved for the dead where if a white blackbird is seen no more may be worked no more node work may be done that day and where it is firmly believe that the world was created by a giant with 3 threads or that the motion of the stars are controlled by the liver of a role Elephant In other words science has got us away from a lot of that stuff so it's good to tell who of us here is I said yes or who of us here hasn't been blessed I have a son who would be dead right now if it wasn't for signs how many of us here could say something similar so there's no question that so why then should I have not been taught true science and evolution as you know because it was science as pretty much unquestioned truth on QUESTION Oh it's science science look what science is done and it's really this idea that science is the ultimate arbiter So you look at it this way every age we look back and we laugh at the myths of previous ages I mean some of the stuff I just read to you we laugh at that and what you think ours is the only age. That doesn't believe in math but say no no no What's more past the age of myth we've got. Us and that's the road to truth I'm saying that that's the great Medha myth of our age that science is this pure road to truth that's the myth of our air OK so anyway why do AI. It was right so I was wrestling I was wrestling with this whole question of evolution and. Finally they gave me and so they're Adventists and I'm telling them I'm struggling with this and they kind of laugh at me off come on come on you can't be serious and finally I said to them Look I'm really shocked because I knew nothing about the Sabbath this mark of the beast last day events but right then I mean I didn't even know I was a sooner at the most got a level I knew that if what I was taught if this evolution stuff was true than this bible stuff could be true OK Even back then at the most got level before I knew any of the issues I couldn't harmonize so finally they gave me a book to read some creationist literature I have no idea if it was any good or not because I look a lot of creationists literature can be as speculative as the quote Bona feed a scientific stuff OK It's amazing particularly with evolution how much total speculation there is some it's almost all suspect I mean if you're talking about events 600000000 years ago supposedly you are doing a lot of speculating. OK But anyway what happened though was I was right before my 24th birthday the so I got born again they gave me this book I read through this book and the scales fell from Myla. And what happened was. No one's denying the fossils are in the ground I mean the fossils are in the ground there they're OK this I've heard Christians Satan created the bones in the ground for you know we don't like that makes us look like idiots now OK the fossil I mean no one's going to die but for the 1st time in my life because I had never ever faced this before was the 1st time in my life I was shown hey there are other ways to interpret how they got there you see what I'm saying well it was billions of years of evolution and on and on and on and suddenly good hey there are other explanations for this and it was like instantly it was like wow I'm never forget it was Wow And you know and I was angry I was angry not so much that I had been taught evolution I was angry in the hard dogmatic way that it had been taught me that really it was nowhere near justified in doing and and this leads to what's a fundamental weakness at the time in all of science in anything that science teaches it's a fundamental weakness it's called. The under determination of theory by evidence OK that's a fancy phrase OK what does that mean do a little test I have a theory and my theory says every time you do X. because it into my theory Y. will turn green OK every time you do X. Y. is my theory is correct why will turn green so you do it you're a scientist you do Theory X. and Y. it turns green and you do it and you do it and a 1000 scientists around the world do the same Sharon that they do X. and sure enough every time they do X. Y. exactly according to my theory turns green OK There's not 1 example where it doesn't so you get done and you think so what's the logical conclusion my theory X. is correct right no absolutely not right it as absolute could have absolutely nothing to do with it what or why I mean well let me give you an example this is kind a theory silly but I'm going to give you an example of under determination you've got every to every prediction made according to the theory took place exactly is the theory said every time exactly according to theory X. Y. turn green OK You think Wow that's powerful evidence for it means diddly squat. Here's what I'm saying I have a theory and my theory is that it invisible spiders from. Push everything to the ground and if my theory of invisible Spiders from Mars is true I'm going to do want to Chairman right now to prove my theory if my theory is correct when I lift this book and I drop it it's going to fall Whoa I just got confirmation from my theory that invisible Spiders from Mars are pushing everything to the ground you want to try you want to try and you see what I'm saying no this is silly it's assuming your example but it proves a very powerful important point that to this day the for scientists and the philosophy of science has not been able to answer you know she there is out there was a famous science philosopher of science think Karl Popper he says accurate predictions they mean nothing you know we tend to think well it's accurate predictions the predictions I got to be careful I spit when I talk so I want to you're being warned you're B I to warn everybody you're in the Splash alone here I want to be careful. I don't what I do tend to get worked up and it just starts flying and so you've been warned but with Karl Popper 1 of the most famous philosophers of science he said that's cheap it means nothing accurate predictions are a dime a dozen and the My point is to this day. To this day you can have scientific she 1 of the arguments that you people say is but the science works I'm going to might come to that later the science the fact that the scientific theory works the fact that you can make accurate predictions the fact that you can even make technology that works is a totally separate issue from whether the theory and the science behind the theory is correct it could work for reasons that have nothing to do let me give you an example that we all could understand OK Let me give you an example that we all could understand very well for a 1000 years 1500 years if you want to say oh they had a blackboard here I don't know whiteboard Well there's no marker where he's off to work on my good looks and charm and no. That's all right forget it my handwriting is uncomprehensible anyway so I used to study a Gyptian higher glyph fix on my teacher used to complain he could read my glyphs but he couldn't read my English translations of them you could revive had writing for a 1500 years if you wanted to sail your ship from Venice Italy to Lisbon Portugal or if you want to predict the motion of Venus in the sky for 1500 years you couldn't do it based on a very good you know based on a theory that the earth sat immobile in the center of the universe and all the planets orbiting the Earth. In perfect circles at constant speed he's OK And the thing was for 1500 years this theory it worked if you want as I said if you want to get from Lisbon to to Venice if you wanted to predict what the stars would be in the sky a theory that posited the Earth sitting stationary wrong at the center of the universe wrong with everything orbiting it and perfect spheres wrong and the spears were moving at constant speed wrong still enabled people to make accurate predictions and have workable technology that when I was working on my book I came across a quote that blew my mind in fact 1 of my chapters in the book is based on that 1 of the most famous philosophers of science he said a theory could be good but not sure OK well I don't know about you but that blew my mind that just totally blew my mind you tend to think well what good is a theory that's false there are wonderful and we can build technology in fact let me give you let me give you an example our cell phones. My lovely cell phone home I can't live without how did we survive. How do you know it's like you had a life before smartphones and after smartphones our smartphones used general relativity and quantum theory and particularly quantum theory is the most highly successful. Scientific theory ever created ever discovered they'd make predictions accurate predictions of what was already saw though that doesn't mean anything that it did but they make accurate picture I once heard it described as there as precise as you take the continental United States and you compare it to will a with the V. human hair. That's how precise quantum physics are our cell phones use quantum physics and also our G.P.S. is use Einstein's general relativity OK again 1 of the most highly proven but that's a very tricky word is science I'll use it because we're used to it but it's really a very tricky word and they say things are proven theories that have been proven then you know 50 years later are no longer believed but for lack of a better term you've got 2 of the most highly successful theories and modern science and I want to read you a quote from a book called The Elegant Universe by a guy named Brian Greene he's a physicist he's a string theorists and he starts the book by talking about how powerfully effective these theories are and he says they are almost unimaginable after C. virtually all predictions made by these theories have been correct OK again predictions after a c OK And then he says however as they are currently formulated both general relativity and quantum theory cannot both be right. OK the 2 theories underlying the tremendous progress of physics during the last 100 years or mutually is compatible to me is that's to me that's astonishing we have these theories they make accurate predictions we get workable technology from them and yet there's still something wrong with either either of them or both of them and my guess my guess is because I. Have popular books on this stuff and if you're anything of a physicist I say I'm an expert in physics as long as I don't have to do any math Now if you know physics outside of time dilations for special relativity which I could have done in high school algebra I can't do any of the math but my guess is because they don't have a clue as to really what's going on in the quantum realm I mean the stuff is so bizarre you read the stuff people you just can't these self atomic particles if you measure room they change OK they know they're being measured and it's not just if they're measured there has to be a consciousness looking at the measuring the light and then they change OK Don't shoot the messenger just read the stuff OK So my point is my guess is probably if time should last the whole quantum thing but anyway the point is these are the most fantastic theories incredible technology incredible predictions and yet as they are now understood they both can't be right and again in 1 sense again it doesn't matter for free for some people they don't care See this is a whole area in the philosophy of science she when I was working on this manuscript I gave the manuscript to a friend of mine who was a scientist I said I want you to read this. And every time I said anything in the manuscript about science as a quest for truth he would circle it with a big red 1 he said and any honest scientists will tell you that science has nothing to do with seeking truth. Now I disagree OK there is a philosophy of science that they're called anti realists they say that's what made of physics true all science could do is tell us how the world acts OK when you try to figure out why you're getting into philosophy you're getting into metaphysics some don't even say it could do that all they say is all science could do is show us how the world appears to our senses because you know the real world is radically different than the little bit we our senses let me give you a quick example I want everybody to be quiet let's not say a word OK Hang on OK now all right I probably should have done something quicker let me do this not a sound OK now. Do you hear the. Word of that come from that originate in here that was all in the air around us as real as my clapping that's real as the sound of my voice and yet due to our very limited receptor this whole aspect of reality completely. Loss to us if we didn't have this device to get it so some say science can't even tell us about how the world appears all it could do is tell us how the world appears to our senses and that could be a totally different thing from the way it really is but anyway some something no no no science tells us about the real world that's why my friend it's I don't necessarily agree with him I tend to think science is a way of teaching us a very specialized aspect of the way the world is OK very limited very subjective you know it's a fact if you're interested in this this whole book I did listen and I still listen I've got on my i Phone hundreds of probably thousands A lectures from the Teaching Company and there was a series of 36 lectures from the great courses called science wars and this guy did 36 lectures on the history of science and how science works and he told about how many in the 18 hundreds and hundreds there were all these breakthroughs in technology and they were building factories based on technology that by the beginning of the 20th century all the scientific theories that they were using to create the technology guess was they were all being overturned. They said oh by the way the theory you have used to make that widget. We now know is wrong well again for some people who care I don't care whether the theories right or wrong all I know is I can make my device I make my widget it cost me 5 dollars to make it the Chinooks out there will pay $20.00 for and I'm happy OK that's all and then Dr Goldman says with some of this the theories we currently hold to be true or is likely to be falsified in the next 100 years as the theories that we look back on as having been falsified in the last 100 years OK but people say but it science and I here's the thing too that you've got that I find fascinating in all this almost enough to remember 4 years ago 40 years ago I want to keep track of the well I'm not even. I'm running out of time I got some I do this all the time I remember 40 years ago Time magazine came out with a cover article the latest and greatest science told us that saturated fat was what member was bad for you the latest and greatest science told us that saturated fat was bad then I remember 2 years ago Time magazine came out with a cover article and the cover article was whoa the latest and greatest science now tells us saturated fat is not bad for you it's good for you now want to change the saturated fat arteries or the subjective human side. And here's important point to they could take saturated fat. They could stick it in a laboratory they can bombard it with extreme he's OK They can dissect it they could put iodine on it they can inject it interacts they can do whatever they want to do with saturated fat OK they can do all this stuff and they'll disagree over what they see what it means what the results are and yet we're supposed to kowtow and bad down in Jan afflict before every scientific pronouncement that they make about a supposedly gene mutation that occurred 800000000 years ago they say that helped give dinosaur weans and so forth and yet and that's so much of what evolutionary biology is all about it's this otherwise you see my point here we are we are there arguing over what they could see here and now scientific theories differ and yet we're supposed to or they make a pronouncement about something 800000000 or 2000000000 years ago and so forth and yet the myth as well that sign this therefore it's got to be true do you have any questions at this point because I've got tons of MS or anything at this point you want to you want to have as we don't have that much more time and I have so much more and any any questions anything at all go ahead. Or. OK that's a you know it's so funny I was writing something about that this morning the idea is that science progresses from more ambiguous theories to more solid ones OK that's the idea that and it's 1 of those things I think there are some truth to it but look let me ask you a question and then you guys decide if you tell me if you believe the answer if what if science is advancing OK you tell me the latest and greatest scientific theory is that our universe arose from nothing absolutely nothing that arose from nothing out of nothing there was this brig explosion that space time manners matter and energy were created OK and then out of all that I've read rigidly from nothing OK And then you know billions of years ago are you know if somehow out of there's nothing there was certain chemicals out of rock air and water and somehow those rock air and water alone somehow were able to create the 1st life form in this 1st life form was able to you know suddenly mutate and reproduce and then it created everything that we you know human consciousness everything else that is what the current scientific theories tell us from nothing there's nothing there before and it came now does that sound like progress to you I mean at least the ancient myths. All had some kind of deity or some kind of god earth and they started out with a cosmic egg you know or they started out with of something or other but the side See here's the thing to 1 of the questions 1 of the questions people you would have it's a fair question Why does science which gets so much right the good the pending on right you should even now know a little bit more right is not miss right. Accurate predictions viable technology is not necessarily the same as right OK In fact this famous philosopher of science he once said What are the chances of you ever proving your theory true what are the chances he said 0 Now that doesn't mean the theory isn't true but he's arguing that there's 0 percent chance that you could ever prove a true because it comes back to what we said in the beginning you know that you could somebody could come along with a better theory to explain it better no I'm not even saying I necessarily even agree with him I just pointing that out to show that it's not all this clear cut stuff that we're made to believe all the sciences are all in harmony and they all agree on all and so on it's nothing like that at all but anyway why does science which gets everything quote right and I put that in quotes because again some people say it doesn't have to get it right that's not what science is about who cares whether the theories right or not doesn't give you an accurate prediction could you get make a good widget that's all that matters forget about all this stuff whether it's true or not OK but we're we're seeking truth I'm a seeker for truth. And plus 2 when they say that you know 800000000 years ago or whatever the the whale ancestor went from the water to the land and then back to the water again they mean really this is not a firy it's not a model they really mean 800000000 years ago there was a whale ancestor that really went to the land and then really went back to the waters so evolution they're not just saying well it's just a model they're trying to tell us this is exactly what happened OK and if they're true you're not going to hell because there is no hell it's science is true but we believe in the scripture cannot possibly be true and I deal with a whole section of the book here let me give you well I'm going to jump to this Why does science get it wrong why does science get origin so wrong when it gets so much quote right and again I'm using that in quote Science works on 2 fundamental theories 2 fundamental principles that it really has to work on that it really that it can't work without him and yet unfortunately I believe both theories when they come to origins are Falls and you'll see why the 1st theory goes back centuries ago. Name ABOL art of Bath and I think he's right he says when you look for a enough effect when you have a natural effect you have to look only for a natural cause OK if you go to the doctor and you got a tummy ache OK is fine if the doctor wants to pray with you. But you don't go to the doctor for him just to pray with you sometimes hurting your stomach you want him to find out OK this is a natural thing that's happening here you want him to give you he says A You're drinking too many banana batteries for breakfast or something OK Very too much hot sauce OK And you I mean you want him to give you a natural answer for it and that's the way science needs to work OK the other the other is this idea of continuity science could not work if there wasn't a continuity in the laws of nature OK I threw when they built the plane high flew on me here I don't know what what it was they might have built the plane 20 years ago they built it based on laws of aerodynamics OK And when I got on the plane yesterday the take off and I just assuming and hoping that the same laws of aerodynamics that were in play when they built that plane 20 years ago are the same laws that are in place when I flew down here and that they stayed in place otherwise what plane could just drop out of the sky so science has to work you don't look for supernatural explanations for natural events you just couldn't do it it would be loued you want $1.00 and $2.00 so you go to the doctor why you want to pray and you know less stress and fine but you've got an A You've got a problem it's a natural problem you want to natural answer to it and the continuity of the laws of nature now that's all fine except they completely fall apart when you go back to the Biblical creation. Go back and read the Genesis creation account it was a super natural of vent from beginning to end godsend and it was God said and it was it was supernatural from beginning to end OK but if you a priori in your study of origins you absolutely rule the supernatural out then what you're going to get it wrong it's like there's a murder you commit murder and I come in and I'm a cop and I right at the beginning say she didn't do it she absolutely didn't do it then guess was whomever I arrest whomever I arrest for the murder by default by the basic laws of logic what has to be the wrong person OK and what Scripture teaches a super natural origin and science and by the way there's absolutely nothing in science Well I've got to be careful that you'd say it's. How many of the early great scientists all believe that God created the world but it's not it it's not necessarily a scientific position which says you can't use it it's more of a philosophical position and it's not always easy to know just because scientists says something it's not necessarily a scientific statement but you notice look at the prejudice that I just revealed there when I just said well it's not necessarily a scientific statement what is the implication Well if it's a scientific statement it's got more truth to it so I could even my can get caught up in that OK So number 1 it's they rule out how it really happened and the number 2 folks. When humans were 1st created the world 1st existed there was no death there was no rain OK And then after of sin came in people lived 800 years if you assume life as it is now and the ecosystem as it is now was the way it had always been you know studying what can studying human life now tell us about human life before humans ever die can you see what I'm saying the Bible posits the natural world there was no death in the beginning it posits a natural world radically radically radically different from the world we have today but if you say no no no the way things are today the same laws the same rules today have to be only reason to be there even back then and when they're not that way what are you going to do you're going to get it wrong so that's why I believe science in so many ways gets origin's wrong and yet the lure is so powerful is so powerful I mean it's amazing how many Christians how many Christians but it's science and science says it and the and again the power of science the technology of science what they do is amazing I am I draws drop at some of the stuff it does but again that's a separate issue from whether they fully understand what's going behind it or not and that's the myth that people have well the science works and so on and that's fine it works but that's a whole separate issue from whether your understanding of it is correct or not but what happens is is I mean I have no problem saying if what the scientists say is correct. The Bible's a joke the Bible's which I mean it's like you know got what we were in history God kept the whole ancient world in darkness all through the Old Testament period all through the New Testament period all through the Protestant Reformation until in the mid 18 hundreds he raised up Charles Darwin his man to straighten the whole world out and I have a section with Darwin Darwin was Darwin had false understanding of evil in the world it was just it was and yet within 10 years Darwinism swept the intellectual world and they've been and and and plus 2 I'm not going to this now this whole idea of these objective scientists seeking truth scientists will each other's throats over their theories they will cut in fact I have I talk about in here 1 of the Teaching Company courses I listened to 36 lectures by a guy named Dr Robert Hazen on the origins of life. And he was you know evolution is at the start and this is fascinating he starts the course out he says this is his assumption he doesn't try to prove it which to me was just won't it said everything because I am starting this course on the assumption that life began on Earth 3500000000 years ago based on the will through water air and rock based on the laws of chemistry and physics OK I guess I was going to ask him if you seen anything in the laws of chemistry and physics working on air water and rock today. That do what you say but we know that's quite an assumption OK because there's nothing you'll see in air water and rock with chemistry and physics today that could do that but that's his assumption and then what was thrust in aiding to me which he starts out he talks about the Miller you're a experiment this was a famous experiment in which they thought they synthesize proteins and everyone how this was it we did it and then later on he talked about other scientists who attacked that no no no that wasn't right it began in a deep then life began in a deep meant and then these other scientists said no no no life begin to Cheryl and they said no no no they even speculate about life began in molten rock a 1000 degrees centigrade it's kind of strange at that with a place and they said no no no now the what's I can't see that far what are you telling me for the A 10 minutes left Yeah OK OK But anyway what was fascinating and pushed to what was 5 how these scientists cut each other's throats OK They hated each other they attacked each other's theories and so on but was fascinating to me was that no 1 and none of the theories worked OK everyone was attacked by someone else and it hit me and I realized it never entered this man's mom. That maybe none of the theories were because his assumption his basic assumption was wrong it never entered and was a fascinating thing of what they call a scientific paradigm you work at when you go watch a football game and they throw the flag they throw the yellow flag they're not challenging the rules of the game. They're just the rules of the game are what they used to try to determine whether you know did he really clip them did he really you know rough the kicker and so on they never challenge rules and he never challenge the paradox. And no wonder they came out wrong but it don't he says what we know eventual we're going to figure figure it out because well it signs but anyway you buy into it it's amazing the vast majority of Christian churches today except evolution because it's science good science and the great myth of our errors Well if it's science it's got to be true they've got scientific proof you know Desmond Ford many of you know the name there's room for wrote a book called Genesis versus Darwin and I thought wow that's cool I had heard a rumor that Ford went off on that as well so 1st some reason he sends me the book and I read it and Ford has become a theistic evolutionists though he's actually he's a progressive creationist mind you and that's a bit more sophisticated it seems a little too sophisticated for theistic evolution as it's evolution but every now and then God jumps in and does some kind of special creation to keep it going so how does Desmond Ford but she doesn't Ford and to his credit Desmond Ford was strong on the Gospel OK who is credited and Ford understood though that if you don't have a literal Adam if you don't have a literal Adam you can't the whole. Plan of Salvation falls apart I don't know how you could possibly read Romans father. Adam Christ Adam Crites Adam Christ all the way through 1st Corinthians 15 and Adam Christ OK Adam there's this isomorphic 1 to 1 Adam Christ and Ford is aware of the problem so I'm not kidding you you can read it yourself and I use this as an example to show I have a whole section in my book on what these how foolish these Christians look trying to fit evolution into the Bible and it's embarrassing and you know go see I don't think even calls himself an admonition Desmond Ford argues that the Adam of Genesis 1 through 324 OK The Adam movie when and Genesis 324 ends when the Lord sent an angel with the flaming sword so the man doesn't get to the tree of life he argues that that Adam in Genesis 1 through 324 is a completely separate Adam separated by a 100000 years. From the Adam in the very next verse even though it says. At each total and the man knew his wife he even though he says What a coincidence that so other Adam also just happened to have a wife named he. And yet the poor man is arguing that they're separate people. Separate you know separate 2 different atoms and 2 different this is what he has to do to try to fit evolution to the Bible and it just doesn't fit our look I've just got 2 minutes left is there any any other question right go ahead speak quick and loud. When it. Comes up. Or where you're asking a valid cook you're He's asking a valid question you know this is science it's working on assumptions OK we we work on it look in the end we all have to put our faith in something OK I deal with this in the book see the difference is it's almost as if God knew hey look human knowledge is only going to go so far eventual all your reasons bottom out OK You can just well I believe this because of this and this because of this and then you stop and you take a leap of faith OK you do it in science you even have to do it in math believe it or not you know OK And so in the end yeah we all do but we live with certain assumptions OK and I have my assumptions based on Scripture and it took for me they fit so much better the world they fit so much better and it comes back to the experience I talked about in the beginning so yeah we have to reach out on faith as well see we have it but they say no this is science and this is absolutely true I mean there's a dog myth to some inside. Who I mean they could be as and in the end the honest ones know there's no that that dogmatism is not justified. The honest ones know a member I asked a friend of mine a chemist and he says Oh we know how things go down certain level and then beyond that we don't have a clue as to what's going on so yeah we make certain assumptions as well ultimately we all end up having to put our faith in something so OK go ahead you think you had a question and then we probably got to wrap this. Thing yeah well yeah well we all do that I suppose to a certain degree we all do that but you know in the end all the point is folks people have attacked me fact I just got done writing I have a column in the avenues for review I write a lot on this it's called cliff's edge if you get to the avenues review and use Google and the search engine and I just was up very early this morning finishing it and I've been attacked as anti-science but being anti-evolution no more makes me anti-science than being against praying to statues Ameri makes me anti prayer OK I'm not anti science I'm anti this idea that we have to surrender all our beliefs to it because it's science particularly when the so I'm sorry evolution is directly completely opposite it's it it attacks everything we believe I have a whole every aspect of our faith is not all of FIDE if what the vast majority of these in intelligent educated world experts teach if they're right. Then we live a lie we live a lie and I've since I don't believe they're right I believe the Word of God I go on the Word of God So anyway if you if this is caught your interest here's the book baptized in the devil I really get into this stuff in depth to every degree and I hope you get done you know least come away you don't have to be I am not the least bit threatened when they say well it's science because you've got to ask OK that's fine what are your assumptions science Oweis works on assumptions and you go back and then you suddenly you find that some of those assumptions Boy that's an awful big leap of faith you're make it right here in fact I have a chapter in the book based on this philosopher of science he said that basically when we do science science is done in a swamp I'm not saying it's 1 of the most famous philosophers you could put the pylons in deep enough to hold the structure in place but it's still all commit Lee in a swamp meaning the whole foundation ultimately could come unglued but again I want to level it makes accurate predictions you build technology you get what you want from it you flier airplanes you go to the moon you split the genome you're you have good surgery they have all these optics and so on for some people that's as far as it needs to go and this idea whether it's absolutely true or not for some would say is another issue but again for us as Christians as 7th Day Adventists with everything every doctor and we believe everything comes out of God as our Creator you know and on this. Within a year after within a century or so after Jesus died Christ 1st Comey the symbol of the 7 day creation the 7th day sabbath was usurped OK within a century or 2 here we are right down right before the 2nd coming of Jesus and not just the symbol of the 6 day creation has been usurped but the 6 day creation it still has been usurped and I don't think that's just a coincidence I think that's all part of everything alternately playing into final events well I better over let me just close with a prayer. Father I thank you for the truth your word Lord help us to step out on faith trust your word you've given us reasons in the word to trust the water you've given us reasons and nature so much in nature to point to you in your benevolent care may we put these 2 together and have a firm faith that would stand in them all the on slots that the world throws at us even and especially when it comes in the name of. In Jesus Name name in. This medium was produced by audio over 40 and. His name and services and industry. If you would like to learn more about. These. Or if you like this. Line.


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