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Without Compromise

Chris Holland
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Chris Holland

Chris Holland is speaker/director of It Is Written Canada. 



  • January 21, 2017
    11:30 AM
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It has stood the test of time. God's Book the Bible. Still relevant in today's complex world. It is written. Messages of hope around the world. Dear friends thank you so much for choosing to watch it is written you know one compromise that has been suggested between creationism and Darwinism is something called theistic evolution so here's a question why not compromise. It would seem to make sense to try to mirror science in the Bible doesn't it make sense when it just help us pastors and scientists to just get along nicely and compromise you know to help answer these questions and sort this all out I'm joined by Dr Tim Standish Dr Standish thank you for joining us again thank you for having me again you know Dr Standish we've talked about in previous shows where you're from and and what you do but you are the senior scientist for the geo science research institute and so maybe just briefly tell us what is the geo science research institute do with J. Science Research Institute is is an institute it's located a it's in a building in southern California but we are a group of scholars who are interested in the interface between science and faith what kind of compromises might be possible as we seek to seek money between these 2 different ways of knowing. In allies What's what's the correct way of viewing them and so that's that's sort of the mission that we that we have in seeking but we travel leave the world now I'm in Canada yes a few weeks ago I was in England one I teach classes in Africa and also in Asia. Various universities. So we obviously we teach classes we also maintain active research programs sometimes we have very tied I would imagine it sounds like you are doing quite a bit and in fact you have our website that is full of resources where people can look at some of the research you're doing and some of the different events that are happening around the world where might someone find that information well that's a G R I S D. A dog or book that agrees the dog org. Is the euro so Dr Standish it sounds like you might be the perfect individual here to have this discussion and we've had a number of previous discussions on on the issue of origins and if you have happened to miss any of our shows on origins you can go to our youtube channel youtube dot com forward slash I.W. Canada and there you can find a number of conversations that Dr Standish and I have had together but Dr Standish we have the biblical account of origins we have Darwinian evolution why not just marry those together why can't we just not compromise and marry those 2 together well there are very good reasons not to and I would I would put it this way really really what's going on in much of this discussion has to do with. Simply a wrong understanding of what the the questions. Frequently we talk about creation vs evolution Yes and we think about things in in those terms so we're looking for a compromise between Creation ism which is a belief yes and evolution which is science. And under those circumstances. I mean he's not going to go to a science because you know somebody whose beliefs should be imposed you know that this is this is sort of the way that the people think about these things commonly oral turnit of Lee They say well we reject science and we're going with with faith really when we're talking about these issues we're talking about creationism and Darwinism to belief systems to police so it's that way you are comparing apples with apples yes as opposed to apples with oranges. With with oranges yes evolution in fact can be scientific it depends very much on your definitions and so on doesn't mean that it's right to be scientific whereas Darwinism is a philosophical it's religious system basically Now when you have 2 very different religious systems you don't get a compromise between them that is going to make believers on either side particularly happy yes the istic evolution. Is basically the idea that God used the process of Darwinian evolution to produce the organisms that we see around us and particularly human beings and so just to kind of put it in some of the terms that you and I have used previously and you threw out a term here real quick so FIA stick evolution is kind of the attempt in simplicity sake of marrying to belief systems of creationism and Darwinism and outcomes fear is the give evolution and we've used these terms plan and plan or design designer and so theistic evolution says there is a designer that has set forth a plan but that plan is is achieved through this Darwinian mechanism and I want to be careful about it because. In in reality when you discussing these things with people who have advocates of some of these positions what you find out is that getting a nice general definition is very hard to do yes sometimes it reminds me of the sound of music you know How Do You Solve A Problem Like Maria how do you catch a cloud and pin it down trying to pin down. The exact meaning can be quite difficult in conversations so it's important if we are talking about these things with specific individuals that we understand what it is they actually do believe because we view something that's completely irrelevant yes to to their belief system so it is a little bit of a catch all thing but definitely you have God involved and the process of Darwinian evolution those 2 things are pretty much core to theists to evolution now and I'm going to ask you an odd question because some people might say I'm advocating theistic evolution but is there evidence that actually supports the idea of theistic evolution it depends on who you ask but see as you're asking me yes my answer is No and this is this is possibly the most profound problem that I have with the a stick of illusion it is not Biblical and it certainly isn't scientific so why would. Anyone go with it. It just it's kind of a. From in my mind one of those compromises that doesn't work for anybody and yet for some reason Rather it is still reasonably popular now that may be because some people have figured out a way of formulating things that kind of works for them but for my personal perspective I don't see the evidence on it from either source science or the Bible to to really justify this. Strange belief. So let's unpack that just a little bit and then we're going to get into because there's actually a very major religious figure that talks about evolution and we want to talk a little bit about that but let me just unpack that slightly and again we've done a lot of shows that would help someone understand why you've just said what you've said but maybe just to unpack it slightly you you said that theistic evolution is neither biblical nor is it scientific So let's take those wanted to time why would you say theistic evolution 1st and foremost is not scientific because it invokes a god but a God who commonly. His action is not detectable in some way it's a very common aspect of theistic evolution or belief in theistic evolution the the actions of God cannot be detected in his creation. So while he may be active Sometimes people say well it's in the quantum uncertainty that we have with atoms or something like that their God God kind of hides himself. Well if God's divine action is not observable science is about observation so how can this have anything to do with science is about it's about sort of. It makes about as much sense to me as invoking a fairy every now and again to explain things but the fairy can do nothing. Now you also then said It is also not Biblical and again someone can go and watch our shows and see thoroughly why that is but again in simplicity why would you say theistic evolution is not Biblical well or does not fit with Biblical Christianity may make this is this is actually a really big. 1st of all we obviously have the creation account in Scripture that is reiterated multiple times Jesus Christ himself talks about Adam the 1st Man Yes And you know a marriage the between the 1st man in the 1st woman there's not a. A difference in the New Testament or all Testament when it comes to the creation. It's very specific that God acted in a certain way and he is the cause of all things in fact if you look at the Bible. It consistently says that the reason to worship God is because he's the creator not because he's the being who steps back and just let things unfold Yes he is an active God there is divine action yes now there are profound theological issues that the istic evolution raises and for me as a Christian probably the most important of those has to do with Jesus Christ. What exactly was Jesus doing on the cross Yes. Well the Bible's lays it out he is dying for my sins God create a value to us so much that he was willing to come down become part of our creation and experience the death that we deserve to win us yes in my place well in the biblical creation account God created things very good yes and then human beings has a different plan yes now. The result of that different plan was precisely what God had said it would be death Yes So death enters the creation as a result of sin yes when we depart from the life giver then life just isn't going to last forever that is now how does Jesus' death on the cross to save me from the ultimate death how does that make sense if there was death before sin and yet death is central an essential component of the Darwinian mechanism you have to be able to get rid of the weak and the old and the you know and the strong the fit are the ones that survive and POS on their genetic information to 2 new generations so things organisms have to go extinct and death has to have occurred and if you look at the Darwinian account of things then you and I are the product of literally millions possibly billions of organisms possibly trillions of organisms is dying before we reach this kind of point in in evolutionary history where we exist now this is a profound thing so kind of summarizing some of the things you said the 1st issue why this is not Biblical is number one the biblical account of creation either is or it is not we we either take it for what it is or we have to throw it out and if we throw it out there are implications of that and we've dealt in the it is written program we've dealt with the reliability of the Bible and its history. Number 2 is the issue of death and sin you know Romans Roman $623.00 says the wages of sin is death and so a fundamental problem with theistic evolution is going to be you have death and Turing before sin which would make the evolutionary processes impossible because it requires death and thirdly which you were alluding to is I would say almost an ethical implication and that is the Bible says that God is love and that God wants to impart life yet he would be using a process that demands death to get to an eventual creation why if God is is all powerful. Why would he possibly choose a mechanism that involves just slaughter on an unlimited unimaginable scale to produce. You know his his creation it's how can God be love and choose that it's that it's you know the funny thing about theistic evolution is that sometimes people who see that as a way of distancing God from the Problem of Evil. You know if God kind of let this mechanism kind of work things out yes and he was sort of step back and just let it happen somehow or other as the thinking is well he he's not fully responsible then for the evil the suffering and death that we see in nature but you know in my opinion it just turns him into something awful Yes he has the power to to do anything but he chooses to let death and suffering be the engine for producing the organisms that he wants in the end and he used I think a profound word that we can kind of gloss over but I want to just pause there for a minute you said he chooses you know because salt $33.00 verses $6.00 to $9.00 but in particularly verse 9 it's speaks of the creation and it says God spoke and it was done he commanded and it stood fast and you use that word choose clearly the Bible says God has the power to speak things into existence but if theistic evolution were true it would mean that God chose to use a process that required death which doesn't make any sense because in the book of 1st Corinthians it calls death the enemy the Book of Revelation says that God will one day put to death death. And it just doesn't make a whole lot of sense now Dr Standish we could we could spend a lot of time this is an area that actually is I feel a great deal that we need to spend some time on but I do want to spend just a few moments you know one of the world's major and in fact some would argue the world's most major religious figure is the pope yes and some people say that the pope supports evolution now I want to ask you the question is that true and if it is true how does he reconcile this issue of death before sin. I have not had a conversation with the pope because I want to be careful here I can only look at his his public statements yes about these things and I would say that. You know the pope speaks very carefully much of the time so recently for example I read a speech the text of a speech that he gave to the Pontifical Academy Yes where he did mention some things about the origin origin thing in my opinion those statements were actually taken a little bit out of context. Now sometimes people use words in multiple ways and and you can sort of go all over the place with that but my mobs of Asian has been that the Catholic Church maintains a position where either believers can believe in the biblical creation and in fact there is at least one Catholic organization that I know of that official and and so on that supports the biblical 6 day creation within thousands of years rather than millions or billions of years or so so that position does exist in the Catholic Church but in addition to that we see that the Catholic Church allows belief in something like theistic evolution OK And so the question is how can the Catholics the Catholics who have crucifixes you know everywhere to remind us of the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ and to their credit I think to you know that is that is obviously a central. Component of all Christian face how can they reconcile the problem of death before sin with Jesus dying on the cross how can that demonstrate God's grace and love and achieve the objective of saving us ourselves yes from death to do it you have to understand that the Catholic church like many other Christian churches embrace is the idea of an immortal soul and. This is is really brought together in quite an elegant way in an in cyclical that was written by Pope Pius the 12th OK 950 OK I have a quote from it here it's a little bit convoluted This is very careful language it's always like a legal document but let me read it to you OK the teaching authority of the church this is the Catholic Church over this is the pope basically his writing does not forbid that in conformity with the present state of human science says and sacred theology research and discussions on the part of men experienced in both fields take place with regard to the doctrine of evolution in as far as it inquires into the origin of the human body as coming from preexisting and living matter so he's saying it's fine for Catholics to believe that the human body came from preexisting mass or whatever we can explore that he's not taking a position he's just saying we can explore that and then he sort of tells why for the Catholic faith obliges us to hold that souls are immediately created by God So the idea is this all of that death that you see in the fossil record OK that evolutionists believe is showing the evolutionary trajectory unfolding in fact it doesn't but that all of that death is different from the death that you get when God comes and puts an immortal soul into a human and they become a human being at that particular point so God uses the process of evolution then in this particular scheme to produce the human body but there is no school there. God puts the immortal soul in and then death is a completely different thing see death before God did that was just the body wearing out and dying or being killed or whatever after God put that soul in death is the separation of body and soul and that's the death you see in this way of thinking that Jesus was addressing on the cross and this is and we could spend and in fact we spent a whole series of shows and to our viewers you can go to our youtube channel youtube dot com forward slash I.W. Canada watch our series is having for real and there we talk about this but this is far reaching implications because the Bible is quite clear that man was made of the dust of the ground God breathed into him the breath of life and then he became a living soul he is does not have an immortal soul but it is a living soul the Paul writing to Timothy is very clear only God is immortal and so this issue of origins has far reaching because it actually goes right to the very core of the essence of what and who a human being is in God's eyes it touches right on many other doctrines of the Christian faith yes if we change the issue to our understanding of origins then all of a sudden if we're going to remain Christians we have to have something like this separate body and soul idea something like an immortal soul and then we have the problem of what do you do with the. Individuals who choose to reject God's love and grace and all of a sudden you've got things like an eternal burning hell because they there are a eternally punish them and it really has huge knock on effect in many areas I personally prefer the actual biblical view of things it's much much more attractive and it makes an awful lot more sense God is a God of love horrifyingly those who reject Him cannot live. But when they die then not put into some sort of it turned all punishment now God in His mercy saves all who come to him. Absolutely those who separate themselves from the only life giving power in the universe will die but that means that they will cease to exist. Yes And you know Dr Standish we are completely out of time but it is very clear. That a compromise of theistic evolution actually brings upon Christianity a greater threat than simple Darwinian evolution because it compromises the faith Dr Standish thank you so much for joining us let's have prayer Heavenly Father thank you so much that you are the creator and we can believe that we pray this in Jesus' name amen. Dear friend would you like to know more about this creator who holds you in such high esteem that he died for you want to offer you the D.V.D. series is heaven for real Here's the information you need to receive today's offer. To request today's offer just logon to W.W.W. dot it is written canada dot ca That's W W W dot it is written canada dot ca and selected T.V. programs tab for Canadian viewers the offer will be sent free and postage paid for viewers outside of Canada shipping charges will apply if you prefer you may call toll free at 1808 call I.I. W That's 1888 call I.I. W. call any time lines are open 24 hours daily That's 1888 call I.O.W. or if you wish you may write to us at it is written box 2010 Oshawa Ontario L one H 7 v 4 that's it is written box 2010 Oshawa Ontario L one age 74. Dr Standish thank you so much for joining us today thank you. Friend thank you for watching I invite you to join us again next week and tell then remember it is written man shall not live by bread alone but by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God.


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