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Logo of GYC SE Fall Conference 2019: “The Wife of Jesus”

Homosexuality and the Church with Michael Carducci Part 2

Michael Carducci

Presenter

Michael Carducci

Co-Director, Coming Out Ministries

Sponsor

Conference

Recorded

  • October 12, 2019
    2:30 PM
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Ok great. All right I like to open with a word of prayer Father just thank you for this time to be presented s e y c And I know Lord that there are many questions that we haven't and if the presentation didn't bring up questions I know that many came with questions that they already have a lot of I just want to answer them honestly and I want to answer them according to your word and I want to answer them with compassion but also compelling truth Lord from your word and so I pray Lord that you will guide us in Jesus' name amen. So the 1st question that I have is. If someone who has engaged in oral sex or masturbation no longer a virgin like someone who has had. General intercourse wow this is a really great question the questions are really good come on in. I want to read the question again because now I understand it. Is someone who has engaged in oral sex or masturbation no longer a virgin like someone who has had genital intercourse and I think that that's a really interesting question and I don't know that I have the complete answer on that again I'm a person with experience I'm not a theologian but I'm also not a medical doctor or a psychologist but I think that according to the word is that the Word says that. Lust begins in the mind all right and so I think that women that have husbands or husbands that have wives that are engaging in pornography and masturbation is that adultery you know I think that the fine line is it's not a physical adultery but it has very similar effects on the mind and so I think that I don't know that that would be an excuse for divorce but I think it definitely is a very serious issue that probably needs to be addressed. I don't have the full I don't have a full theological answer for this question but I think that. In situations where people are addicted to pornography that premarital sex is usually much easier to engage in but for occasionally there are people that have looked at Master or have looked at pornography or engaged in masturbation or oral sex and still maintain that they were still a virgin so are you still a virgin maybe not technically or maybe you are technically from the standpoint that you haven't had that gentle intercourse but there's a lot of mental things that I think that you really have to look at spiritual and mental things that you're going through by engaging in these other behaviors Ok so you know let me give you an example these 2 people they were good Adventists Christians one you know they were Bible workers and they got together and so they had what I call veggie sex you know they basically stripped down to their underwear and they would you know rub up on each other until they had an a sexual climax All right so technically you know they didn't have sex or intercourse but they had sex do you see the difference you know so you're going to draw a line on certain behaviors are acceptable and certain are in what is got why he's not calling us to heterosexuality is calling us to holiness right and so are those acts holy is it holy to look at pornography is it holy to masturbate is it holy to engage in oral sex so whether technically you've engaged in Vachon all intercourse with a partner or not still we have to recognize that this isn't the plan that God has for each one of us and that he wants us to be holy like he is so again that no maybe you haven't technically crossed that line but what you're doing isn't right either or isn't you no good either and why isn't it good because what it does is it destroys your ability to value other people right and to value God It disconnects it breaks up our ability to communicate with God and it also breaks up our ability to value other people as wholesome and and valuable it's also some of these acts that are. In this question are somewhat degrading you know that when you engage in just oral sex that that that's degrading because God didn't intend for your faces to be apart you want you to look into your lover's face you know we were designed that way we're not like the animal kingdom we were designed to experience what true intimacy is so I think a belabored that I'm far enough is that Ok how do you respond if someone who's a non-Christian asked am I going to hell if I'm a homosexual or transgender etc What is the loving Christian response beautiful question. So again if somebody is a non-Christian and ask you if they're going to hell because they're transgendered or homosexual I think that it's a really delicate situation and I think that you have to make sure that the love is 1st and foremost we have to be compassionate we have to reach above and beyond the compassion of what most people have in the church because what I heard in the church for all the years that I was gay was that I was going to burn in a hotter hell than everybody else and even if those words were never spoken that's the message that I got and so when somebody asks a question like that let's say in a situation where someone's a non-Christian then the ask you a say well let's look at the Word of God What does the Word of God say about you as a homosexual or a transgender you know what there are so many wonderful verses you know that that God loves us and that his love for us is is as what is his thoughts towards us or is ours countless is a sense of the seashore like affirmed to them that God loves you God loves you God loves you no show those who are his 1st and then talk about the fact that when you look at some of the verses that talk about homosexuality or transgenderism what was really especially loving to me was when I really looked at them myself and I said Oh God doesn't condemn the homosexual he condemns the practice and so he still loves me but he says this practice why does he condemn it because it pulls me away from not only the identity that he blessed me with through my biology because every time my aunt would take me into the bathroom and tease my hair and make it look like a girl what that did inside is it made me more dissatisfied with my male parts and it gave me the longing to be more feminized what it did is it pulled me away from the gift of sexual identity that God gave me as a male and it gave me the desire to want to be more feminine Do you see that but God didn't hate me he just said that the act was an abomination that when I dressed up as a female when I engaged in that behavior what it did is a pulled me more away from what he intended for me to embrace So that was the abomination to Him It's like Mike. I gave you this is a gift you know not to be hated or not to be shunned but to embrace and to and to enjoy that so I would make sure that you make sure that that person even before you answer their question about transgenderism or homosexuality make sure that they know that God loves them and that even as a homosexual God still loves you but he knows that this behavior is damaging and destructive for you and because he loves you that's why he asks you not to engage in those behaviors do you see the difference. I just want to bring up another point if you so many of you are really young and so I wonder or question how many life experiences you've had but in the gay community you will never find somebody that is more hospitable than somebody that escape and if you notice and they get in the in the world you know it's your gays that are your waiters gays that are hairdressers they're in the the hospitality industry they work at the hotels you know gay people as I was one of them I know how to really give good service and so we as Christians we've got a bump up our game we've got to be better than them you have to let them know that a Christian loving service has got to be better than that and let me use an example there was a waiter that was gay and it was waiting on a Christian family and the Christian family wrote on the ticket you know how the waiter drops a ticket at your table and this Christian family said we believe in Christian values and because of your conversation we assume that you're gay therefore we're not going to tip you because we know that this is not a lifestyle that God approves of have a good day do you think that that was a good testimony of Christianity to that person. Do you see the condescension in that it's like if anything you should have left them a larger tap than you should have let them know that that you love them and that you care for them as a human being because we don't reject people because they're gay straight transgender bisexual because the Bible says that we're all sinners that we've all come short of the glory of God right so and I use the maybe this will come up in one of the questions but you let me use 1st Corinthians Chapter 6 very clear 1st Corinthians chapter sex talks about all the abominations it won't be in heaven 9 and 10 and it says this is what won't be in heaven it says. Homosexuals and a feminine people and you know what I heard that message loud and clear and as being a young Christian in church culture you know I was devastated by that and I thought wow I can't help what I'm attracted to I prayed that God would change me and he never did that so 20 years old I walked out of the church never to come back but you know what where were the people saying verse 11 because it said Such were some of you but you've been washed you've been sanctified What does that do is that points back to the power of Jesus Christ to transform a lie but nobody was saying that but they were telling me that I was condemned because of of my attractions and how I saw myself but you know what they missed the part that said the adulterer the licentious the fornicators right that's not just limited to gays if you've ever had a sexual thought in your mind if you've ever indulged in masturbation or pornography you're in that list too here's where I think the answer is that instead of just being this kind of condescension this thing like you know the Christian comes up to the gay person this is oh you poor little homosexual you know maybe God will have mercy on you instead what would be the reaction if you said you know what I don't struggle with what you struggle with but I got a struggle and my name is right there in 1st Corinthians Chapter 6 just like yours is but God says that he has an answer for us and if you point out verse 11 it doesn't make me better than you but it doesn't make you better than me we're all in this mess together right so would that be wonderful if our crew. The principal was like listen Jesus has the answer and I'm looking forward to if you want to come with me do you see the difference in that and I think that the gay community has really you know they heard us you know we've condemned gays for so long that you know the gay community said Ok Well all you've ever said to me is that I'm gay and that I can't change and I'm going to burn in a hotter house so why would I want your god in there for I want or I want the right to marry and I want the ability to express myself the way that I that I can because you say that I can't do anything different this is what I think is amazing is that 30 years ago and somebody said this to me it was really funny they said Mike you've really always been on the wrong side you know back when you were gay it wasn't popular to be gay and you were condemned but now that you've come out and now you're out of the gay life and now when gays being celebrated and and awarded now you're on the other side and you're being condemned again. But here's the difference here's a difference back 3040 years ago in 1st Corinthians Chapter 6 we we said that gays can change and we hated them right but isn't it interesting that 50 years later now we're saying the gays can't change but God loves them what didn't change what's still the same. We still say the gays can't change so Christians said gays couldn't change before and we hated them now you're saying the gays can't change and now we love them but that's still a message from the enemy because God says in verse 11 Such were some of you and that's a messages from the enemy whether you hate them or you love them in their send God wants to deliver us all from our sin is not right so again the Devils using this as a way to change our thinking it's like well you could get down them when you hated them because they couldn't change which is a lie and now we're loving them in the church and saying that there's no problem when you're still saying that they can't change when That's a lie isn't that interesting that the Christian church has taken both sides of this now anyway so I think that that's a good place to start is to just let them know how much God loves them. Could you repeat what you said about the binary gender and how there can be no l g b t All right so. This was basically talking about now we have this group have you ever noticed that the letters just keep building it was l g b t b t Q Now is l g b t Q a and I don't even know what letters come after that but it'll end in x y z so so so the l g b t we know is lesbian gay bisexual transgender q. for questioning did you know that that homosexuality is the new drug that if you're gay you should try straight sex and if you're straight you should try gay sex that basically trying to blur the lines and that anything goes on the whole ideas just do away with with any kind of identity so that we're all just sexual human beings and it's interesting because just 50 years ago 50 years ago that there were only 2 identities in the Bible the 2 identities that are in the Bible is that you're either in Christ or you serve self is that right that makes sense we there serve Jesus or we serve self so my identity as a Christian is in Christ not in my sexual attractions not in how I see myself as a gender but now because of Alfred Kinsey anyone heard of Alfred Kinsey listen there's a movie that came out and they actually honor this guy and make him this this hero basically So 50 years ago you had Alfred Kinsey who was a let me get the let me get the acronyms right he was a homosexual pedophile masochist. You know that means he was same sex attracted to young boys and he was masochistic meaning that he abused himself too to have sexual Joy make sense so he actually died he actually died from abusing him self sexually that's what he alternately died from but this is the guy that the United States actually funded all of his research to find out about human sexuality so basically he releases a book in the fifty's in this called I think male sexuality or something like that I forget the name of the book was but eventually came out with one with women and he does all of these studies he basically paid fathers to molest their daughters and basically he wanted to in this information he wanted to find out how long an orgasm for a child would last and how many they could actually have in a 24 hour period of time this man abused children and paid other people to abuse children he said in his work that a 6 month old child a 6 month old child has $22.00 orgasms in a 24 hour period of time and this is what he used as his criteria his criteria for an orgasm was vomiting screaming and passing out and he would orally and digitally stimulate this little 6 month old baby girl imagine that and not only did he abuse this child by keeping it up for 24 hours. But then this is how he molested this child and that is where we get the understanding that children are sexual that's where you hear the voice now that we should lower the consensual age for sex because children of sexual I was never molested as a child I praise God for that but whenever I've talked to other people that were molested when they were young children it's from that moment that they started having these sexual thoughts my colleague Ron Woolsey who's in his seventy's he was molested at 4 years old by a farm hand that worked on his father's farm and from that moment on can you imagine at 4 years old he could not get that molestation out of his mind and it began this obsession with sexual thoughts of 4 years old so if we instruct our children on how to have homosexuals sex bisexuals sex transgenderism whatever you're putting these thoughts inside these children my and in my opinion which is abuse sexual abuse and you're allowing them to experience things that God knew that they weren't physically and mentally ready to experience until they become more mature and so this is the research that Alfred Kinsey did and this is where we get our modern ideas about sexuality and identity because before Alfred Kinsey you were either in Christ or you identified with self you had a sinful identity or Christ identity and you see the difference and so now what's happening is now you have theologians in our own universities that are sitting there and saying that you know what Paula Moses were relevant regarding sexuality and that their their words should be thrown out of the Bible because they just don't matter now what changed about the Word of God between 100 years ago and today nothing but what changed was our culture and just because culture deems what morality is does not mean that it's moral or biblical because look at what they did to Nazi Germany there was the law right to persecute and to kill all these these Jews and so even if it was a law it didn't make it more all. Do you follow what I'm saying there and so again so let me cut to the question for fear that I missed it. So my question repeating what I said about the binary gender So Ok so here we go so now the l g b t for the l.g.b. has a problem with t. because transgenderism is basically saying that you're not female and that you're not male that we're all basically not defined by our biology we're now does defined by what we think in our minds so you can be whatever you want you to be a cat a dog could be a male or female you could be somewhere in between there's a man actually promoting that he's called Mix not Miss or Mr he wants to be called an x. mix because on Tuesday feels like dressing like a guy but on Thursday it feels like dressing as a girl and he believes that he is so fluid that he can go back and forth as He wills this is how crazy it is there now laws at this hospital in San Francisco Tim a recent burger Have you heard of him Dr Tim he was working in the e.r. and they had this new form now that you can't identify a patient is male or female and so what if the person comes in and they've got you know maybe they have a tumor on their ovary but yet you can identify them as a female and so therefore can you imagine how difficult it's going to be to properly diagnose that person and to treat their issue they could actually die or hemorrhage before they actually get the medical treatment if we can just identify it as our biology to see how crazy things are and so the whole idea is to do away with male and female totally And so if you do that then guess what you don't have heterosexuals or homosexuals anymore because if I buy an area and if I'm not identified by my by my my genetics or my biology then if I have a relationship with a woman or a man it doesn't matter because we're genderless So therefore if you're genderless then you don't have homosexuals or bisexuals or heterosexuals anymore. Do you see the conflict now so even an l g b t they have an issue with the t. because the t. does away with identities so then you don't have that is either. Interesting contradiction I hope explain that well. How do you strike a balance between knowing homosexuality is sinful and still showing Christ like love best ways to support without condoning what are the most effective ways to reach homosexuals with the Gospel best ways to prevent homosexuality in our children. It's a really excellent question and I have a couple of extra things to share and and I think for the benefit of the recording it'll help also. Striking a balance between knowing homosexuality is sinful and still showing Christ like love and so how do we show support without condoning that amazing there was a father that I just had a phone call with just a couple of days ago and I had spoken at the school where he was a student and his son is in the military and his son is in a relationship and married to a man and so we had talked and I talked about how to show unconditional love right and so he said well I'm going to go this weekend and then they see my son and he told us and he says I just want to love you I just want to be your dad so he goes there but his son wants to take him to the gay bars and so here's a father who's you know like an elder in his church and so even if it's a gay bar he doesn't go to bars right and so the someone says show him what his lifestyle is like and want to introduce him to his friends but his dad doesn't know like should I go to the gay bar because I want to be supportive you know do I ask you know his friends like how did they fall in love how did they meet or is that condoning their lifestyle can you imagine the bombardment of questions that you would have in your mind but let me give you an example that I think is really beautiful there was a couple and they had a son that was game and the son was getting married to his fiance and these are actual terms now you can't deny it you can pretend that they don't exist but these are the terms and so this this family they decided that they were not going to go to the wedding because again if you go to a wedding and baby many of you don't realize this but 30 years ago when I would go to a wedding the pastor would say is there anyone here that has any reason why this couple should not be wed together in holy matrimony let them speak now or forever hold their peace remember that well don't say that anymore because nobody wants to know you're going to disrupt the wedding but here's the point when you show up at someone's wedding your attendance at that wedding says that you support the. Union Ok so if you can't justify that in your mind if you don't believe in that then you have to realize that your attendance at that wedding is either a contradiction of your principles or that they do that you do believe or agree in that so they felt that they could not be at their son's wedding but they didn't want their son to think that he was on loved and that they didn't love his partner to his but what they did is 2 weeks before the wedding they flew out to California they spent money on their son and his fiance they took him to dinner they took him to some of the amusements in the area they spent 10 days with their son and his fiance and at the last meal before the wedding they said we want to make sure you know that we love you and that we love your partner and have we demonstrated that and they agreed all absolutely yes yes and they said but we want to make sure that you know that we can attend your wedding you know don't look for us to be there it's not because we don't love you it's because you know that where we stand biblically is we believe that God has something better for both of you right and so guess what they demonstrated great love exceptional love they made sure that they knew that it wasn't because they were cheap and they didn't have the money to spend but they spent the money on them and showed them ways that they loved them and at the same time letting them know that they could be at that wedding I thought that was a great way to demonstrate you know the principle in the Bible that says we need to be as harmless as dogs but wise as serpents right so how is it that we can can demonstrate the love of Christ and not condone those behaviors and you know what every situation is going to be different you know that had a man that came up to me and I was at a.s.i. and he said to me said I will never speak to my daughter again until she comes to or senses that this lifestyle is wrong and I'm looking at this guy who Oh and he says she's involved in a relationship with another woman she's married and they have 3 children and I looked at him and I said sir I said how does not loving your daughter or speaking to your daughter show the love of Christ. And the tears were already welling up in his eyes because I could tell he loved his daughter I could tell you Mr and I think that he really thought that he was holding on to the Christian principle by by not indulging that by not even talking to her or whatever and I said sir I said there are 3 children involved I said do you think those 3 children chose their moms I said do you think those children are just as much a victim to that relationship and I said who's going to show them Christ like love who's going to show them what it's like to be a man and I said what's wrong if you were to take those children every weekend and give you know your daughter and her or wife a break and what if you were to take them to church what if you were the one that read them the stories what if you were the one that bounced those kids on their knee and showed them what masculine love really looked like I said How is that losing Christian principles and he started to cry and I think that honestly he really thought that the only way that he could really support God was to be cruel and unloving to his daughter until she came around and did things according to how he saw fit and I said sir I said what if those little children would come home every weekend and start telling their moms about the love of Jesus Christ right I mean what's so amazing is that we have no idea how the Holy Spirit works and the only thing that I believe God has asked each one of us to do is to create an atmosphere to create an environment where all people can come and find love it's not just the gays that need to be more love you know in our churches and you know what about the stripper What about you know what about the thieve What about the drug addict or the alcoholic isn't it our responsibility to create an environment in our churches and in our communities where people can come and find the love of Jesus Christ and then guess what I wanted to let the Holy Spirit do his job and bring to them a conviction. Let me give you another final story there was a young woman a young girl and she was doing Bible studies in her living room with 2 with this gay couple and there were 2 men and for 2 years every Friday night there they were in her living room and they would have a meal then they start opening up the word of God and these 2 guys were excited about Jesus they love Jesus and after 2 years and I at a time oh I thought it would happen like Ok I'm just going to have those like pull me out right so anyway this couple would be at our house every Friday night and so she called me and she said I don't know what to do I've been doing Bible studies for 2 years you know with these guys every Friday night I've avoided the gay issue because I just don't even want to touch it and she said she said I love them they're like family to me you know we do more than just bible studies together we've shared and she said I don't want to do anything that would hurt them but they said they're ready for for baptism they've been studying for 2 years you know they love Jesus they understand the state of the dead they they love the Sabbath right they're going to church and they said why can't we be baptized and she's looking at them of course she loves them and they said Is it because we're gay and he and one of them said What does the Bible say about homosexuality. Well to get out of it and to give herself a little bit of time she said to them she goes can you give me a couple of weeks because it's really not my issue you know let me study it and I'll get back with you and they go Sure fine no problem so she called me and I said to her and I believe that this came from the Holy Spirit cause I'd never heard of a situation like this before but I think she did everything right I think she did everything right should in focus on their sexuality what she did is she focused on the love of Jesus let them know the love of Jesus the Bible says that if I be lifted up I will draw all men and to me the gays the addicts the alcoholics that the people that are engaging in you know premarital sex whatever that is porn masturbation if I be lifted up I will draw all men into me and she was activating that principle and because she had learned that her they had learned about Jesus Christ now they were committed to Jesus and they wanted to follow him with their heart so so I said instead of you studying it and then bringing it to them I said why don't you guys just open up the word together if the Holy Spirit's already been working in your home every Friday night then why don't you open up the word and say you know what we're going to discover together let's let the Holy Spirit guide us right and she did just that and then she opened up Leviticus Chapter $16.23 and she opened up 1st the 1st chapter of Romans and then 1st Corinthians Chapter 6 and even in Jude every time that they got to homosexuality in the Bible they both said oh my oh my and they were under conviction does not make sense this is not beautiful Isn't that how we love people and yet not condone certain behaviors right show them who Jesus is let the Holy Spirit do his job I think it's beautiful I think that God You know he doesn't expect us to have a protocol Well it's a protocol for the gay and this is the protocol for the transgender and this is the protocol for the alcoholic and this is the protocol for the liar it's all the same. Anyway I hope I answered that well. How could a parent. Preserve his children from getting into thoughts and behaviors that are not blessed by God. Let me start with just that question it goes on to says what are alarming signs of going in the wrong direction Ok How could a parent prevent his children from getting into thoughts and behaviors that are not blessed by God I think that Ellen White is very clear she says that the best the the best example the know that the best way to show people Jesus Christ is by living a Christian life remember the quote that I'm talking about it's very simple it basically says if you want to be a good impression on somebody a kind and loving Christian is basically what she says so so let me elaborate on that just a little bit more. A lot of times we tend to be the type of person that we say well you know I have a neighbor that's gay you know and I invited them for dinner and I had the Bible at the end of the table and as soon as dinner was over before dessert I started to take out the Word of God and I told them that you know that their life was an abomination and blah blah blah blah blah you know is that Christian No of course it isn't because you know you just whack on people over the head with the truth is a truth yes but was it done with the Holy Spirit's guidance of course not and I think a lot of times what we do is we go through our checklist and like well I did this and this and I did this and I did this and I did this you know I don't know why they're not converted I had a pastor say to a friend of mine who was really you know I was really my heart was breaking it was this couple and the pastor goes over to give them all the verses on the Sabbath and they can't argue with him and the pastor looked in and he says All right so you going to get baptized and then like wait wait wait he said why I just proved it to you Saturday was the Sabbath you know that why would you get baptized. And you know what I was so offended by that because you know what God doesn't force me or drag me in even if I know that it's true it takes time to assimilate that information doesn't it it takes time it takes relationship and you know what it's amazing because we live in such a microwave world we think that if I tell you the 20 you know what is of the 23 fundamentals of the church that you know you get baptized and everything will be fine and I think that we do a disservice to people that when they do get baptized they come up out of the water we say Ok be on your way but really when you stop and think about it the moment that you were baptized God didn't wash away your history and your memory and all your issues but wasn't that really just the beginning of your walk with Jesus Christ wasn't that when you really needed the support of the church and your friends that were there for you and I think that that's also what we have to be mindful of and especially from a parent's perspective the best way is through example what is she says through precept and example and I think what's really difficult is that I have people call me and they say my son is really feminine and now he's identifying as a girl and he's 4 years old what can I do and I think back to my own time I think back to my own example and I remember that my dad tried to Butch me up my dad would take me out suiting guns he was a copy was a policeman so you know he'd take me to shooting guns but I do want to shoot guns they were loud they were aggressive and what they did is a pushed me even further away from identifying with my dad well then he took me to attack training German Shepherd classes right and here I am 6 years old I didn't want to see the German Shepherds attack and try to maul these people I wanted to pet them so my dad really did nothing more than push me even further out of masculinity into that identity but imagine the power that my dad could have had if he just would have laid down on the carpet with me and colored in my coloring book I needed to know that masculinity was available and acceptable and attractive and you know what my dad trying to force me into masculine be. Hey viewers by you know playing football or or these other things that didn't appeal to that little kid you've got to get on that little kids level l m I says and ministry of healing on page 143 that Christ method alone brought lasting results guess what you want that there's a formula God gives you the formula if you practice and hold him accountable right the 1st thing he did is he met people where they were Jesus got down on the ground with me and started coloring in my collar book he knew that there were other areas that I couldn't even relate to but what he did do is he related to where I was at and if you don't know where your kids are at ask him ask the Holy Spirit because He knows exactly where your kids are ask the Holy Spirit how can I relate to my son or my daughter asked the Holy Spirit what would reach them how can I do this and many times the Holy Spirit tells me to keep my mouth shut he says demonstrate my love for them quit preaching at them quit harping on them and love them invest in them let them know because what was happening for me is this disconnect with my dad because number one he really had a sexual addiction going on and he didn't have a lot of time for me or my sisters and the little bit of time that he gave me was critical it was Judge Mental and I felt that there was no way I could ever attain to his level for a father or a mother to apologize to their kids is really powerful because what it does is it lets me know that you're human and it lets me know that you're on the same path that I am and that you can relate to my struggle but when you have a parent that's that over you that they never do anything wrong and they never have to apologize for anything that they do then what happens is I start to get this message that either you are a fake and a fraud or that I can never attain to that level. I think what's most beautiful for a parent is to let their humanity show like I have a friend and she was a drug addict and she was sexually active and she had 2 daughters and you know she she tried to keep that from them she never wanted them to know what her life was like before and unfortunately both of her daughters became the same as she was but she never shared with them what she came from do you see the value that it would have had that as a parent if she would have said I had the struggle but Jesus gave me something better I had that struggle and you don't have to give them the details but to let them know that you're human and that you know what they're struggling with right so to instead of pretending like it never happened or that you don't know how to relate to someone in that position I think what you have to do is create relationships and I have an excellent example of just popped in my head and this was really funny it's funny but it's beautiful and I was laughing and crying at the same time if you can imagine that. This woman we were speaking to the pastor's wife who got invited to do a q. and a with the pastor's wife. I want tell you a conference in case you know or so anyway this lady comes up and she looks like Rebecca donnybrook farm she's got you know hair pulled back in this in this ponytail with this big flower around it we haven't done that since the ninety's but anyway she was wearing a denim jump or whatever and she had this big smile all over a face and she's looking at a sexually broken people and she said Oh I'm so glad that you came you know and thank you for your questions or whatever and she said I really identify with everything you were saying and I'm looking at her and I'm with another colleague and we're just looking to her and say lady you have a clue right that your life was just all perfect and you don't even know what it's like to b.s. but she started to share what her story was and this was her story she said. When I was a little girl I was obsessed with wanting to see a man naked. Ok that's a little revealing right for a pastor's wife to say to you and she would go up to a mother and she said Mother I want to see a naked man and the mother didn't shame her or even you know shut her down and she goes Well I don't really have a naked man I guess we could ask your father and she'd say Oh no I don't want to see father and so mother honestly just answered a question and she said Well men are hairier than women they're bigger they have more muscles right and what she did is she gave her daughter anough information to satisfy your curiosity she didn't you know she didn't shame or for asking that question it was a legitimate question and so what she did is she created a relationship and her daughter knew that she could come and get the truth any parent that will sit there and lie to their children and say this sex doesn't feel good or isn't this or isn't that and lie about it then what you've done is you've actually given the enemy a point because Jesus doesn't lie there was no guile in his mouth there was no deception and so this mother told her daughter the true enough truth to give her the satisfaction of what she was going for without instructing around how to sin right are you following me so then a couple of years later they're at this house and the cleaning out this house and they're in the house and so she's the oldest one of her siblings and so she opens up this closet door and wouldn't you know it there is a centerfold from Playgirl magazine of a lumberjack leaning against a tree with an axe and he's butt naked and so she rips down that poster because she doesn't want to brothers and sisters to see it she hides it who do you think she took it to. She went to her mother look mother a naked man I mean could you imagine going to your mother and just showing her this poster. Right right right you get those images but she went to her mother because she trusted her mother and her mother she knew that her mother wouldn't shame her and that she could get an honest answer and then as she showed her mother this disposed of this naked man the mother says well you've always wanted to see a naked man there he is and so after they checked out the genetic makeup of this man or whatever she said See he's hairy or then then we are look he's got more muscles than we do but then she did the most miraculous thing she says but look at his face she says What's he doing well he's smiling mother she said What do you think he's smiling about well I don't know Mother do you think he loves Jesus I don't know do you think he's married do you think he holds the door open for his wife what she did is she established exactly what the curiosity was about the physical stature of this man but then she made it spiritual She brought it right back to his heart into his mind and what was amazing is that I started crying because I thought to myself wow if I could have gone to my mother or my father and got a legitimate honest answer about the questions going on inside of my mind instead of thinking that I had to hold on to all these these these secrets and questions in my mind if I had a legitimate person that I could go to that wouldn't shame me that I could trust to get an honest and a spiritual answer from my life might have been totally different you see the beauty in that and so with our children I think the best that you can do is debate everything in prayer bathed everything in prayer the way you feed them the way you dress them why you feed them why you dress them that way letting them know and somebody said something really interesting to me they said. As a parent many parents come to us and they say my son is gay or my daughter's lesbian or they're transgender or they're bisexual or they're polyamorous and they feel guilty they they feel like what did I do wrong and that's usually the 1st question out of their mouth what did I do what did I do did I make them that way the guilt and the condemnation they can't even share with their with their family members let alone the church family for fear that you know they're going to say oh it's all your fault and you did this and you did this there are issues in every family no family is without family dysfunction we live in a world of 6000 years of degenerated sin you think there's going to be one family without any dysfunction I doubt it. But here's the beauty of that is that even in the most perfect environment even in heaven guess what Lucifer told chose to send he had a perfect father he lived in a perfect environment he had a perfect home and yet still even God Himself couldn't keep sin from happening and so it helps parents to know that you know what we're all fallen human beings yes there might be some things that help to influence is so whatever but I guarantee you that if you commit your way to the Lord that God is the one that can make a difference in our families he's the one that can set bad things right and even if it had nothing to do with you that he's also the one that can show you how to interact and how to help retrain and regard your children so there's a man that they called me and his son was very feminine and he started identifying as the girl and here's a father. And he's saying I don't know what to do and I started to ask him a few questions I said do you spend much time with your son he said No I get home pretty late you know by time I get home my wife is already bathed my son and fed him you know and you know I get home I'm kind of tired I don't have much energy to really play with my son and I said Ok and I really identified with that because that was very similar to my upbringing and so now her his son is starting to say that he's that he's a girl and not a boy and he identifies with mommy and not with daddy and so I pointed out to him I said you know something I said he really does doesn't identify with you and I said it's not a gay thing I said it doesn't make your son gay because he's a feminine and I hope you'll remember that just because you see somebody who's a feminine doesn't mean that they're gay it's just mean that during that developmental time they didn't really have a masculine role model that they identified with or had access to so my dad was gone a lot of times and I was surrounded by 3 sisters and my mother and so what happens is you're born with wet cement you have no identity you have no form you don't know that you're a girl or a boy into the ages of like one and 3 but then between one and 3 little boys like to wear baseball caps like their dad and little girls like to wear dresses like their mom what that means is that this cement is starting to take shape it's starting to harden in the same sex parent so little boys start to realize that on that like mom I'm like dad and so little boys start to imitate the dad and that some men start to harden in the masculine and then the same thing for girls if there wasn't a male role model at home then doesn't it make sense that that boy might have some feminine mannerisms because a cement harden in the feminine I still have a feminine mannerisms but it's not because I was gay or that I am gay or whatever that was it's because I didn't identify with my father I identified with my mother and I wanted to walk like her and talk like her so once that stuff is cemented in some men Guess what it's very difficult to change that will follow me for the rest of my life while I can minimize some of the overt things that I did as a homosexual but some of those mannerisms are there to stay so just because. A kid starts off that way doesn't mean that they have to stay that way so I advise this father I said start investing in your son you be in charge of his evening care you'll be in charge of the play time you be in charge of the worship before your son goes to sleep and you know what was so beautiful is in 6 months he called me again and I asked him how things were going and he admitted to me he said My son has a personality that I really don't enjoy he said I find it really difficult to spend time with my son but I took your advice and I started investing in more time and he said this to me said you know what was amazing I said what he said the more time I spent with my son the more I started to love him I was not honest for the father do even admit that he had a child that he didn't like his child personality but what was so beautiful is when he started to act on the principle because he was that parent and that was his son and his son was struggling with an identity issue because his father didn't make him available to him self but as he did the father started to love that son more and appreciate his personality and then what started to happen is they started to play games where they would play hide and seek and the little boy would start to say Come on Dad let's hide from Mom do you see how subtle that is to see how beautiful that is that instead of the boy identifying with the mom just as the father spending time with him and investing in His Son He started to identify with the dad more C'mon Dad or guys let's hide from Mom you see the beautiful transition this started to happen and who was in charge of that the father was. Anyways now beautiful. So what are alarming signs of giving the wrong direction and. And I think that even even as Christian parents that a lot of times if we're not actively investing in our kids and I think prayerful 1st I think that's one of the worst things that you can do if you're not actually bathing your children in prayer and asking the Lord how to parent then you're really even in your best efforts are not going to be able to meet their needs because you don't know necessarily what their needs are right and we do it wrong can we just accept the fact that his parents should do it wrong I can't help it but God still intrusted you and gave you tools to really at least make the difference when you do something wrong but also he'll help you to do things right more often than you do things wrong if you're connecting with him before you do your parenting Ok Look I'm an x. gay who's 59 years old who's never been married I don't know how to give you parenting lessons. What was the most powerful factor that helped you get out of homosexuality Ah God's persistence honestly honestly honestly and you know I hear these wonderful miraculous stories of people that you know they just give their heart to the Lord and then never struggle with it again I wish I really wish I'm not married I still have same sex attraction but what I've learned in the 20 years I've been walking with Jesus Christ is that the homosexuality is really minimal now because I know where it came from I know that the reasons why I ended up same sex attracted b. was because I felt inadequate as a male because I was transgendered before I was in puberty then when puberty hit the sex it is the mystery becomes the attraction I was surrounded by femininity I rejected my dad the boys in school to call me Sissy queer in fact so guess what when puberty came to sex it was a mystery for me wasn't women it was men it was my own that became a sexual attraction for me as I reinforced that through masturbation and fantasy and then at 20 years old coming out into the gay culture every time that I sexually acted out with men I was in printing that identity on myself even more and more so guess what after 20 years of living as an active homosexuals sexual addict that thing out 3 or 4 times a week guess what's really difficult to get rid of when I got baptized and came up out of that watery grave God did not take away my history or my memory and so that's still there and the devil taunts me with that constantly but what I've learned in the process and I had to fall a lot before I got up is a matter of fact I was baptized with a boyfriend and a sexual addiction and so when I came up out of the water I wasn't straight ready to date mate and pro-create But as I began that process was Jesus Christ he was more committed to me than I was to him I was desperate to prove that God was going to love me and my boyfriend and if God would just convert my Jewish boyfriend we would be this mighty team for Jesus but you know what God had other plans and as always. Walking with Jesus and experiencing Him I had a great boyfriend who was a millionaire with big blue eyes and big arms we both had convertible Mercedes we open up this hair salon I was making a quarter of a $1000000.00 every year and yet how is it that the love of God would be so compelling that I would rather have him than this really great boyfriend and you know something that income all of a sudden at once but because Jesus was more faithful to me than I was to him I recognized that after a while I couldn't live without that love and then when it came down to reading the Bible and the Lord said I got to make a decision you want him or do you want me and you know what I'd like to say that was easy like a like a flip of a switch on the wall but it wasn't and I cried and I agonized and I said Lord if you want me out of the relationship you're going to have to do it yourself because I'm going to dig in my heels I'm going to prove to you that I can be faithful to this man and if you would bless us we would work for you and God said I'll get right on that and within a few weeks my boy from broke up with me and at that moment when my boyfriend broke up with me there was this piece of came over me because he said you know what Mike he said you know the relationship isn't really going in the direction I thought it would and they said I need a break and I knew that that was God speaking because I couldn't broke break up with him but I went home and I was still along I wasn't straight and here I am alone and I just gave up the best thing that ever happened to me and I started to cry and I said Why God why. The best person ever came into my life it was someone that loved me that I loved Why would you ask me to give up something that was so good and as I cried as I saw. It was Jesus that was holding me it was Jesus that was loving me and even though I saw nothing in my future that would ever give me the opportunity to hold somebody in my arms or to be loved by them he was loving me and for the 1st time in my life I started to experience the intimacy that my sexual life had denied me of and as I was being bathed in that kind of love I pursue it I seek it to this day. I can't believe that it's been 17 years that I haven't had a sexual relationship with anyone I can't believe it because I couldn't even go a week without a sexual conquest and how is it that the love of Jesus is better than the peace that he provides better than getting laid or having a sexual situation with someone I still can't explain it but I'm experiencing that and it didn't come as an event wouldn't it be nice who just got whacked over the head with the straight thing and then you know like a magic mana boom everything's Ok but what I think is more important to God is that he wants relationship what he wants more than anything else because he could just take away from my convenience you know would also be said and done but what he wants is he wants me to strive for him he wants me to be as committed to him as he is to me and in that process guess what he won't take away my right to choose and you know what with that choice came consequences I remember one time it had been several years giving my heart to the Lord I live out in the country of Tennessee and you know I live in the Smoky Mountains I lived in Orlando Florida I lived lived in a gay neighborhood I live within 2 miles of 5 gay bars you know that was my life so now here I am in the country it was after church of so in my my Sabbath clothes and I took my friend to a store after Sabbath the had no bathroom I had to go so I got in my car I went to the 1st place that had a had a bathroom and it happened to be a bar sorry I didn't realize it but I walk into this bar and I hear the music and I see the disco lights going and I can smell the alcohol and I get smell the cigarettes and in my twenty's and thirty's I spent 3 nights a week in a bar that was where I hoped up sexually with people that's where a commune with other people like me that's where I had a lot of fun in the 5 minutes that I was in that bar 7 years after I become an admin is Christian 5 minutes went to the bathroom came back out got my car dropped off my friend and her house and now I'm driving home to my lonely little log cabin in the Smokey Mountains and all of the sudden the devil is using all of my senses and bringing all of that back to me and I thought to myself what am I doing. It's 930 on a Saturday night why am I going to this lonely cabin out in the woods when I could be going down to the big city and getting laid and having a sexual relationship and just because I saw the lights in that bar smelled the alcohol in the cigarettes and heard the music the devil was using all of those senses that it triggered me in my twenty's and thirty's God did not take away my history my memory and as I was in my mind I started to struggle and as I'm starting the struggle inside my mind I said Lord what's going on and Jesus said Mike if you want that you can have it that's what you want if you want to drive into the city and pick somebody up and get laid you can have that but in Isaiah 118 is says Come on let us reason together is not right he's not going to insult your intelligence and he's not going to take it out of your hand for your convenience but he will respect your right to choose and if you choose to give it to him he'll take it you want to give up pornography you want to give up masturbation or premarital sex if you give it to him it's 100 percent it works every time but he will not take away your right to choose and that's why we struggle and even if we struggle in fall he's still invested in it and he's willing to take you 1st on one side if you just confess what you've done not only as the faithful and just to forgive your sins but the clincher from all unrighteousness and that's what he did that night for me on the road and he said Mike haven't I helped to deny deliver you from your relationship didn't I deliver you from a house that was 2 miles from 5 day bars didn't I get your debt free didn't I deliver you from the sexual addiction and he just started giving me this list didn't I didn't I didn't I did not and that night when I drove into my little driveway of my little log cabin 12 miles out from the city as like to write God this is good this is what I choose and it was my choice that night. Do you see how beautiful that is it's got to be your decision he's not going to drag you into heaven kicking and screaming but there's a process to that and we have to learn that process as a parent or even as a child of God that we still have to remember that he's not going to necessarily take away for your convenience you might have to struggle with this thing but the Victory is always there and that was a process that I had to learn when I got baptized I did not want to give up my homosexuality or my sexual addiction but as I learned of Christ and eventually the things that he loved I started to love and the things that he hated I started to hate. Oh cool last question Do you agree with the rights given to the l g b t plus community while great question I don't even know if we've ever even had this question and it's been like 9 years and I think that I've answered every question that there could possibly be. I agree with some of the rights of the community and again coming from my perspective as somebody that was prejudiced and was judged according to that and being denied rights as a human being I think that every human being should have equal rights unfortunately that's not the case with the movement the movement is not only here to to get equal rights they want your rights and now you're starting to see this reversal that now what's happening is the Christian community is the one that's being hunted and being stripped away of their rights part of it is basically based on the way that we treated gays for a long time and guess what we've learned that we have a reputation of being haters and judgers And unfortunately now what's happening is everything is switching because we know that the devil has an agenda if you're a 7th Day Adventist Christian if you've read the great controversy guess what it's not going to go away and we are going to be the hunted but I do believe that there are rights that the gay community should have that we've enjoyed the Bible is very clear about what is it church and state should not be connected right so if the church should not have the influence in the state legislation then why is it that straight couples would only be able to enjoy the benefits of political. Rights does that make sense if we're all human beings and should everybody have that right but I believe that the government provided that this media was brought to you by audio force a website dedicated to spreading God's word through free sermon audio and much more if you would like to know more about how do you force or if you would like to listen to more sermons lead to visit w w. Or.

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