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Adventism’s Mystic Stone: Ellen White’s Call for Lifestyle Centres

John Kelly George Cho Mark Sandoval


Ellen White called sanitarium work a mystic stone and clearly emphasized its importance for sharing God’s last day message to the world. In this session, three Adventist doctors explore the current importance of lifestyle immersions and centers and answer common questions about health evangelism.


  • May 28, 2020
    9:00 AM
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Do or. Thank you for being today. Were you can us precious instructions to the messenger. And will as we explore one of our councils Lord we are still you really. Will inspire us tonight how we can for you. This you want to cream Jesus the. Remember Oh I was so just before we begin to feel housekeeping things 1st like I said this is being recorded so. Just adjust your mike and just your camera accordingly right. Also know when to questions and just so as at the end but if you have questions just put in a chap who will tell it like many of us past. But in the Tell us who try to get it to as many of us are here. Today are the organization is putting us on to innovation what path is all that I'm innocent this is not a path in us and I think only into one of. 2 more holistic care so if you're interested in that you can look at the you know the USA There also last though is nursing institutes of the something that we started recently is in Argos you help train others limbers in the basic causes of loss of medicine so that they can grow and share with others all in one lasted only. So it's you is designed for that and this will do is one believe this program today. If you want to learn more about some of the courses that we. Right so today on the topic. Is the Atlas a terrier and. One cause the atlas and in terms of mistakes the ones very interesting people are not where this quotation on the Start with the quotation here you find it very interesting this morning is balance sheet. God has given our sanitariums an important work to say an operation of work will be a stone in life growing as it is go by invisible and let this nest stone be set in motion so very fascinating words twist of words by our Lord's messenger and almost all of New Age when we share this on Facebook one percent call it the. Course is not busy I think always really what she's saying is that. There's something very special. But our conviction is that. We do not believe that this work has really taken hold of a strong 2 so we have your 2 individuals who are about hoping to speak on this topic with us of course we are Dr Marks other than Dr Sun The bell is the medical director for you to institute is also the director. There's no conference so we thank Dr Sun about so much for coming to join us today Dr John Daly and out of hell is a research professor in the University of only president of the American cause lost the mess in a college part of the not the last to be at the annual meetings he's also he's been a fling with various Alaska centers including Black Hills also Ok so we'll do this however because the audience. A lot of experience with sanitarium were last us and help them merge and these are new words these days and if you're to share with us as some of the common questions we might have about. John Mark thanks so much for joining us today for the institute's pleasure to be with you and then report to Mark. I think some other really crucial in Dr Joy You did us well our father and diabetes are really well received really thank you so much for taking. To be with us and thank you Dr Marc for Also taking your time well you know we're just to question is a format and for each question just your article for. Us and then get your thoughts on the different aspects of my style center work with sanitariums rice unless you're into it 1st. I've instructed us into an artist Alice in many places in the country and the work of these institutions will be clearly a book review of ethical and righteousness in other places this year smallest and hands artist stylish in many places so the question is this and also with you Dr John. Well you know in America a lot of men politicking a cow on less than both and the number of countries. And hands in Canada there is only one that really. Can question to you is this a mission out stance is was and what's. Really are we there yet are we 5 behind a I mean kind of. Peace on. The mark now well if I'm not mistaken the. Vision that I get anyway when I read a wise counsel about sanitarium work is that we should have small sanitariums in connection with every city you know any significant sized city and family style cemetery and even you know so and doesn't she also mentioned that we should have a treatment room in connection with our churches I think she says even if it's a rather. Crude are rudimentary facility we should have so that's not a cemetery in but it certainly is like a satellite could should be I or I think a satellite of a well known sanitarium So I think my thinking is that we have. Gone backwards to be honest with you in the last 100 years since Ellen White's Yeah in 1915 I mean I'm not without hope. We're doing all we can to try and promote lifestyle medicine and Senate Ternium work the lifestyle medicine is of course a secular endeavor but it is an excellent way to support the work of a sanitarium in my opinion don't work. Well medical ministry page 324 she tells us there should be sanitariums near our large cities. So you know how large is large that I suppose is debatable but we should have sanitariums near each of them I agree with John we are nowhere near the completion of that vision there needs to be many many more. And they need to be strategically placed near all of our large cities around the world so that fall to both of you. Has the time for you and him were to be affected. And also. You know how come. When I have you to unity but the truth. In your life when you so physically you Mark and the need to Johnson we. Wire a way far behind it's not because God has not given us a vision it's because we haven't taken the vision and run with it so the difficulty lies with God's people not with God Himself. Are we past the time for the effectiveness. Sanitariums or lifestyle centers Absolutely not I see the effect of this every day and the lives that are converted in our lifestyles venture the transformation that happens and so on and I'm absolutely convinced this is God's method. Has Done Yeah I I agree there's so much that could be said about this I'm sure we'll unpack a little bit more as we go on tonight but I guess the one thing I would say is that I think that there is a growing interest I'm pretty excited how the current coven 19 pandemic has created an interest in. Hydrothermal therapy and some of the things that we were you know using a 100 years ago very effectively but but have sort of gone out of. Fashion I guess you would say and so I have great hope I think I think that the. Centime work is like she said that our schools are prisoners of hope I think that we're going to see a great sanitarium work before Christ returns as we intervene. Well not here. Here is no cause the Lord years ago game especially in regard to stocks of institution with the. Lines of those all the other is to say well if you fall you cannot open schools. And this is here. And it was to be in his hands one of the most. Giving life to the well. As was well you know it's this and work is one of the most successful needs of. You know John the more you know and I am sure you know we we researching all of these are not hard to read young. We see things that we're missing one of the men who own list is one of the most so John No you're really research based at can't tell us on other studies really now that's looking at the merchant who has an i.d. showing that it hasn't clinical terms of any share of those yes yes you know there is a growing body of. Clinical research that's published that is showing the benefit basically the health since that is what we would call it and have been to circles. That the Lord gave insight to the remnant church you know we we were given insights on the value of that even. Eating more like they Adam and Eve did and and now of course that's commonly called The Whole Food Plan. Or a beacon diet course. Is and I'm not by that statement I need to make sure I don't confuse anyone I'm not saying that I've even die and it's exactly the diet that God advocated Bottoms is what I am saying is that's the. Secular counterpart to it I would say and I think that the research on this is it is compelling I just recently had a paper. Cept for the American Journal of life some medicine and it's in connection with the American College of lifestyle medicine where we did a review and showed why the evidence indicates we should be making remission the treatment goal for type 2 diabetes and advocating using whole food plant diet. To pursue that So the research is certainly stronger than it has ever been and. You know the research is growing so it's better than it ever was and yet there's a lot of momentum for other kinds of modelling let's face it pharmaceuticals are more profitable than I do therapy or plan diet and sleep but but this pandemic shows us that the the. Lifestyle is the strongest treatment that we really have for many diseases especially the ones that are brand new to us like a novel coronavirus. Yes I think it and you know I'm just a couple who actually study into religion and I see where it will. Come across and in this instance. Yes I didn't speak directly to that part of your question but indeed the the research on immersion programs is growing it's called in the literature they refer to it as I t.l.c. intensive therapeutic watch they'll change. James repeat for. A book The 3rd Edition now a book called lifestyle medicine and the 1st edition came out in 1909 and there's a chapter in there on intensive therapeutic lifestyle change where is all about doing an immersion kind of an intensive treatment I would also point out that recently about a year ago just under a year the American Board of lifestyle medicine approved the criteria the competencies for a lifestyle medicine specialist or are an intensivist who is the best the training that a physician or or clinician would have for doing immersions So so this whole area of immersions is definitely growing and the research is growing. It's good for our viewers to know that there's actually science behind this is not just. My men Dr Mark you know how well spiritual aspect so you know a lot you know how to be into. It and so just you know as if you know was leave Angelus. Potentially. And as it is absolutely powerful. To be able to mate with and a vigil is to meet their needs to care for them to take them from where other at which they. Or particular concerns relative to a particular disease process and then to bring and that the the idea that they have a spiritual in the spiritual need is driving their physical dysfunction and to help them to see how that fund how that works and then to bring them to the place where they where they see that they are absolutely in the need of a savior and the hope that they have is not really on a diet it's not really an exercise they saying although those are an expression. What should I say those are that is the expression of one's faith but the real the real need that they have is a savior and the gospel is that real nadir and as we have understood that Marmar clearly and we have an a greater that more of our slowly and then our lifestyle program it is awesome to see the transformation that happens and vigils lives the spiritual transformation. I you know I have individuals every session we have people that are that are coming to Christ that are finding out about justification and the freedom that comes with the cross and righteousness by face for the 1st time even though they might have been in church for many years and it is it's exciting to be able to lead somebody to the foot of the cross and and see them surrender their heart to Christ in your in your office and you know and to be able to do that and we have we have come to recognize which we should have recognized all along that it's been a growth process for each one the comes to you cheap pines and becomes a part of the staff of growing out of what our previous background had been into something that is greater in the greater understanding is that everybody is there for salvation and that's really why they're there not to get better physically for a few years but for salvation and as we focus on that and as we enter grade it becomes more and more of the experience and it's just it's exciting it really is. I remember when I was a wall would for 2 months or so and at the graduation graduation satchel no way by that. Really with us and. Saying here about this that's a list of potential is really powerful and I'm pretty sure u.t. is saying you know what stresses are on secular people not doing what we call. Up to Dean Ornish Dr Berman and we. Didn't do any immersion as a course in secular. I hope that we don't become the reason we need a head I don't know if. Well immersion program again the the purpose for for this work and the purpose for every word that God calls us to us for salvation the purpose is for eternity and so yes the enemy is going to he is going to bring counterfeits that are out there and the closer that it looks like the real thing the more dangerous that it is and so you know you'll have you'll have other programs that are out there. You know like the arnest program and so on it looks really great has lots of great numbers you know it's promoted by you know it's accepted by Medicare and other different insurance companies and so on and there are there are effects associated with it. But you know every time Arnis comes to the American College of lifestyle medicine there's a meditation event that happens and you know there's there's just there's there's there's very much of a pushing for a for an Eastern. Theology you know associated with it and and so you know the enemy knows that the right arm is the I mean that the health message is the right arm of the 3 angels messages and so he knows that that needs to be the right arm of his message as well and so yes we can look at temporary benefits we can look at you know. You know an atheist going to get a plant based diet and and can exercise and incorporate lifestyle you know appropriate lifestyle factors in their life and they're there is a benefit and you can see that benefit when it comes to diseases when it comes to you know physical longevity here and now but if we don't touch it turn it it if we went late individuals to a faith relationship with Christ where their lifestyle is simply out working or a demonstration of the faith that they have an Christ if their focus is the lifestyle if it is the die. If it is to exercise then we have really Mr wrecked. The end of edgel so it must be something of an internal basis. John how do you when you see others doing immersion program not happen as. You. Make. It very quickly. So my connection is unstable to join us with me that question Dr George Yes Yes Well what I you know as the as the founder president for the American cause a lot of the medicine which is a secular medical society promote in. Ban saying. We Seventh-Day Adventists need to be about our business we need to be serious about leading a lifestyle medicine you know. I agree with Dr Mark sent of all said about Ornish he's he's a friend of mine but he he is unabashedly promoting his approach to religion you know his Swami his his meditation approach and and I can't fault him for that to the extent for the I mean I certainly am not a bashfully a Christian and I never hide it try to make it is as plain as anyone can. In my secular work but I guess what I'm trying to say is that. We the solution is for us Christians 7th Day Adventist to let our light shine and we will definitely complex God's purpose it will do that if you have a very. High while we will hear you here. She says you know everyone one and while I resonate he smiles and his new status in the sea says we are not united in the city's life Billie's listed here because he indicate that the sea have never cared for outside of cities in any place it will be less it were in the city as much as possible this which should be transferred to a country as soon as civil locations can secure the Mark I'll start with you just made. Is you know. I think it's. You know how this question. Is Yes All right well counsels on health paid $167.00 Ellen White says that it is the expressed will of God that our sound of talent sanitarium shall be established as far from the cities as is consistent and so as far as from the cities as it is consistent and there is another passage I remember exactly where it was where she says that she would she had mentioned specifically about 30 miles but of course recognizing at the time that she made the statement you're talking about a horse and 30 miles out of the city a Nowadays could be quite a bit farther than that if you're considering travel time and whatever but it doesn't necessarily have to be but I think the main principle is as far from the cities as is consistent Ok John Yeah yes I mean this is a great question and I too have looked for miles just curiosity and I saw I've seen the 30 there was another one where she mentioned I think it was in New York State that was about 60 miles the farthest I've seen anywhere but then when you think about Loma Linda. The centurion there in 100-004-1910 in a way that was to reach Los Angeles so they were considering that said team to be reachable from Los Angeles because they had a railroad they had the train and so yeah I think that Mark is right on the point is is is far into the country as is consistent and I don't think you can put an exact number of miles on it. I will say one thing about that there is some interesting research now that is showing us that indeed the balsam the pine the fragrance of the country is one of the. Things that is turning out that actually has their puting value we all know that pollution is last so many ways that that that is true the treatment is more effective and the country if we can get if we can do it there. Environmental Health is a No 2 I'm not so sure it has already moved on here now this is very interesting and I want to get your comment on she says in the clip a regular senator and we should start a smaller sentence and then a few patients in a small As if you can be healthy educated too much beer battered you know a large number of Galatea. Bulls just didn't also hear all the new rules and small scientists must establish the people must be to do. This you want to but there are holes and prayed to mislead what is going to be contextual like the guys given. The evils of erecting a law as their last and in any place should be fully understood what it is in the place of having one minute and 10. Small of a sentence could be a start in several cities is needed because so many of us say so much in one place is counted cause or small plants or the star in a place so us know you thought it just so how small small a large is too large and just cut off as you can and point is kind of give us a sense well one thing we do know is that when you have a smaller group it is more the communication is easier the the it's more nimble you can just so many things that are easier to do with a small team than with a huge large team and it is interesting that Dr Kellogg was you know he had the councils that told him to not rebuild when they won the. Creekside fame burn he was counseled that the Lord did not want such a large institution and you know he built even larger. And it and it failed. So I believe. That the answer to this is. Something and then probably under $50.00 to $100.00 bands to my mind would be the largest sanitarium typically But the more common size could be anywhere from a dozen $2.00 to $2.00 dozen. Rooms or beds we call them and course. I have worked in. Sanitariums of different sizes and worked with Wiemar with. Pine. Even Valley back kills. And Ok even there and I would say to you the most common size from my experience that works well is somewhere around $15.00 to $20.00. Groups of 15 to 20 individuals or couples Well I'm interested to see what Mark's comments about this. Well I think one statement that Holmes thing and the homes it and best are made from the Spirit of Prophecy accounts from testimonies of the church and 8 and outs around to a 4 to 5 and she was mentioning this is this is 2003 I mean 1903 publications so it's after the burning down of the Battle Creek sanitarium and rebuilt and she says the Battle Creek sanitarium is too large a great many workers will be required to care for the patients who come 8 tenths of the number of patients who come to that institution as as many as can be cared for with the best results and one medical missionary center and so what was the size of the institution at that time it was close to a 1000 beds now to clog capacity was close to a 1000 patients that expanded a little bit more after that to a maximum of about $1300.00 and so if you say that it tends so you like going out somewhere around $100.00 to $130.00 being the maximum that lends to 2 ssion would be able to sustain and another place she mentions why that's the case and it's because the purpose for the institution is for the spiritual development and for the salvation of the Souls that come there and when the institution becomes too large then it becomes too difficult for that institution that focus on the spiritual care of management of the patients Now one comment in regards to Lama land when Lama land it was purchased it had 90 rooms and Alan White was very happy with the size of it and in fact was in agreement with John burden and others that it needed some immediate expansion in order to entry of some of its capacity now and nationally some of those rooms were taken up by staff members and not all of them were occupied by patients but what they wanted to do was they wanted to build in the staff members going to have housing and so on and all of those rooms could be used for patients and so. Fall is not necessarily a smallest some people think. But the so this needs to be a for again the spirituality the salvation of the end of N.G.O.s that are coming to it and when it becomes too large it becomes too unwieldy and it's difficult to maintain that happiness here. Yes I think you can just say it yes so yes that's true. Mark but keep in mind also that Loma Linda was destined to be a training center a major training center so it was more than just a senator Absolutely and I do appreciate that I do appreciate the fact we when I said suggesting something around 20 I certainly we're not talking about the maximum I was just talking about what I think is common. Very workable signs. So then I absolutely agree with all of the both you then and you don't have to look on issue one too but I saw her hospital today. More like create her. Well how do you like this well I'll just say this I think that the counsel for hospitals was different than for Senate time I think a common mistake that we have made is sometimes we equal weight and going to hospitals with and going to sanitariums they're not Ellen White wrote about both institutions both this kind of facilities contemporaneously she talked about when she was an Australian needing. A sanitarium and also another question she said we need a hospital. And so she was aware of the different types of his fish and I'm not sure what the optimal size for a hospital is but it wouldn't surprise me if it was appropriate for it to be larger than a sanitarium but. Again I'm on the edge of our knowledge because we don't have a lot she had she did not write a lot about hospital law though she did speak of them so I guess what I don't want to say is that I don't consider the admin as high as hospitals to be admin a sanitarium and I would like to see us have sanitariums and I believe they would need to be and would be smaller than hospitals. Just. That's my guess and. Yeah there's a statement and again I don't remember this one as I'd have to look it up again. Where Ellen White makes the statement she makes a comparison and she says that if our if our institutions solely function as hospitals then they. Say they failed to achieve their purposes that's right they failed or gee of their of their purpose and so again the focus is not on the treatment modalities and the size and everything like that the focus is on salvation that's the purpose of the institution and so if it solely functions as a hospital then God doesn't recognize it as his own it sails in it's very purpose because the purpose for that saying in the hands of 7th Day Adventists As for the salvation of souls now it's not just for hospitals it's also for for like restaurants and for. Health food stores and any other aspect of and situations and in ads and ask Harry like what they eat with a restaurant she says if they if you look at it and you see that there's not salvation or there's not conversion coming through individuals that are going are shocked to find out what your put your time in your money and other things because the purposes for the salvation of souls can can I share in thought right there I really really appreciate that and I want to encourage all of us on this on this why men are to think about this a moment how is it right for us to think that we can ask non have been asked employees working in an admin as the institution to help us evangelize are the patients to be adventurous you can it's not appropriate to ask them Baptist to teach my beliefs to the patients and in fact if they're going to share their faith they're going to have to share their faith they're not going to share my faith and so I think that was something that is very different about the way we operate hospitals than the way that we were supposed operates at times as we were supposed to staff Senate tens with 7th Day Adventist believers who were there for evangelism and to do the work of Christ today in a hospital we mean yes we like to have it is a good p.r. for the church we like to to you know. Our promise if I might say that in medical circles but in reality we don't see it as primarily an evangelistic endeavor and I and I work for us I mean I was faculty at Loma Linda for a few years and my tenure. Button or whatever so I was there at least 10 years and I can tell you that wonderful people but you cannot do evangelism with a wide variety. Of stuff. Some some some are Christian some maybe are questionable even as to whether they're even Christian anyway I just want to I think that's important to keep in mind no he. Really did include point thank you so much for sharing. I don't know who move on here to this one and it's not you know of a tricky one but death we would appreciate your thoughts on this or this you know it's here this is all of the messages all of you have a wonderful response or message on those connected with the Senate you know this name but. This is to be done without the use of poisonous drugs she recalls not reviewed here arsenate unit are one of the most as we need to reach people situations where they care the city are to be established when then it will meet me placed under the care cost committed and treated without drugs so the question to both of you is this. You know. This but for what it. Is. This this this blows as good a job as the kid is does whenever whenever you know that the other was that I just know as ever you the 2 of you know in no situation the lead in this is to let you know you. Know John. This very quickly. Oh well I don't know if you can very quickly but anyway you can I believe you could have an entire hour talking and studying the account more about this yeah or more but I'll say since you want to be quick I'll just say this I will tell you that as a physician when I when I work with patients if they are let's say a 7th Day Adventist and they are taking medications they're quite sick and sometimes I have a patient who says you know I I want to get off my medication I don't think that what God really intended I will help them in every way we can to make lifestyle changes to to pray and ask for miracles to be able to stop the use of medicine to suit their personal conviction my my personal conviction as a physician is if I do not believe in the use of the medication and there are medicines that I will not prescribe I will I will not oversee. For example to me taking so many of the oncology medications are they are poisons I don't you can say whatever you want they are very dangerous poisons and I have a conviction against the use of poisonous drugs and so and I believe that and if people say well I feel like God is. Wanting me to use conventional therapy I will refer them to physicians that I believe are comfortable with that and let them do it because but for me I don't do that. And I have had patients that have said they want to quit their medicines and I have told them I'll tell you what I do I for I will I talk with them very sincerely and clearly and I want to find out are they trying to do this because they're afraid that God is punishing them for doing something they shouldn't do I don't I guess not the motivation in my pain to quit but if they are convicted God can heal them without these medications and they are willing to place themselves in his hands I am perfectly comfortable with that approach and encourage them and pray with them and I but I what I do is I say you know Mr Jones. Let me just clarify one thing if in fact God's answer is he's going to hear you at the resurrection and not now not this week Are you Ok with that and if they're Ok with that then I'm perfectly Ok with that so I and I will say one of the I have I don't I bet you on I could count on one hand our most 2 hands the number of medications I have initiated in the 15 or 20 years I've been practicing medicine I don't I do not prescribe new medications as a general rule. While he doesn't have much now. Testimony has a church volume 5 page 443 says there are many ways of practice in the healing art that there is only one way that have enough troops because remedies are the simple agencies of nature that will not tax or debilitate the system through their powerful properties I've talked about here air water cleanliness proper diet purity of life and so on and then at the end of that paragraph and says But drugs are expensive both in Outland means and yes extra do stuff on the system. And then we're told and medical ministry page 27 paragraphs here says As to drugs being used in our institutions that is contrary to the light which the Lord has been pleased now that she goes on to say at the end of that paragraph sound sanitariums were to reach form the medical practices of men women so we have been trained in pharmacology but there is another way of practice and that God approves there is one way so you know we get caught up there you know there are many ways of practicing my own arts it's true you can go out there and you find pretty much guarantees saying that you're going to want to find in regards to it but it's like South Asian salvation there's one way right there by only one name are we saved right through Jesus Christ and there it's the narrow way and it's the same thing with healing too there's only one way to heaven approves and health real house True house mirrors salvation and it mirrors that faith relationship with him and so if we're trying to do a what should I say if we try to play on both sides of the fence then. Then well you know the enemy on the fence and and were never really never really firm from that standpoint but that said I will say this before before we were able to manufacture and sell a type one diabetes was a universally Seydel diagnosis right and now individuals live for decades rest type one diabetes and and before there was the. Manufacturer siren heart. And a vigils who developed hypo thyroid as severe hypos I read as I'm that that was fatal. And and so now we have you know some of these modalities that we can years or individuals can stay alive where they don't have that functionality and and I have an issue to medications much more often than John has because they come to you and with the expectation that we were going to take them off their medication in the 1st place and so they show up without anything and they say they've already had a fire at a belated Are there a type one diabetic and I show up without hands on they show up without I read harm on I go I I here's a prescription Sarma say you know take this you have to take it we're going to work with you lifestyle you know and the rest. These things but there's some stuff we just can't get around because you don't have a siren anymore or any you know you don't have a functioning pancreas anymore and so those are things that need to be can and taken into consideration too and also you know this is not a discussion in regards to the hospital setting. You know I mean if I if I cut my fingers off and I go into the e.r. Abhi very happy for saliva again or before him again or something like that and you know something to help out with the pain in the short term and ask if I'm in a critical condition well that I'm very grateful that there's an i.c.u. where there are some really powerful medications that can be used in that particular setting or Fi have to have surgery please. But now. You know and so on so there are I think there are appropriate locations where there are where there is the appropriate use asd you know medications but the purpose for the sanitariums were not to continue the medications and the other way of treating individuals but it was to teach and a vigil is how to care for themselves as they see their body as the Temple of Christ and to find and to cooperate with Christ and those things that seem simple and God works through the things that are too simple to bring about profound results so that the glory and I honor go to him and not to the things if I'm if I might have there's one of this thing that has impressed me about this and I agree with what Marcus and I I think we're in harmony even though we're speaking to different aspects of this question. And that is you see Ellen White says that we need to study and physiology She says the more you understand the physiology the less unless you use medications and so you seize the use them and also I believe that we should be doing more diligent research looking for then non pharmaceutical approaches and I appreciate that aspect of men trapped at the drop of the core example. Isn't my cells really looking for here. This is another one as well I think this is really how they think he's got design their stance against all you need to be high and low rich and poor that we have. A lot of. People there and then to pay for the base and. All arrays and all the c. those who are. Using it would be hard pressed to access those services you both in this business for a while now or what he thought quickly when you thought. Mark you were going. Well of course we're told that we are not to. Not to use the practices of other physicians as our criterion for how to charge for things and I actually prefer my simple operation way should house of a price and so on and that those exorbitant prices charged by physicians as robbery and straught that's what we're told and medical ministry 121122 so. Our criteria can't be the criteria of the world but yet at the same time a ministry cannot continue to function if it does not do so as as a as a financial institution. You know we have we have got $68.00 full time volunteers plus family members and so on and yet you pines there's a certain amount of an income that we need to have in order to give everybody their below poverty level stipend and you know and and still have the answer to function and pay bills and saw and so we knew we had to have a revenue and some people think that it would be really nice if everybody could do every 6 create and indeed I'm I agree with that I would love to be able to provide free services. But we don't have the capacity of doing that and I'm not sure that's actually necessarily the best way because 1st some that we have provided a quotes of free rides or sometimes they're demanding and they're unappreciative day you know take advantage and those who actually really invest and have the ones that actually get the most out of it because they do have a vested interest in it now one of the ways that we try to help out with it. And as we have that Dr Agatston thrash Memorial Fund which is a scholarship fund so we see it for donations for individuals that would donate and to that particular fund and we use that to help offset. Cases Amanda vigils who can't afford to comment made. And so on and ever. A year we give away well over $100000.00 worth of. Services free or discounted to end a vigil that are coming through the center and this year alone by the time we got to the end of March it was about $60000.00 worth of those. Services that we had you know that we had we weren't charging for and you know and having individuals come and even at the same time that things really tight for us financially and co-head has not that. Has not been nice to us from a financial standpoint but we believe we are doing what the Lord has called us to do and we know that the while that will that he will pull us through and that's where it began and sacrifice and it will end in sacrifice we are sacrificing. I would I would I would point out a couple of things you know before I went in medicine I worked for Blue Cross Blue Shield her a number of years in i.t. and one of the things that has really changed since I'm a white day to our day that is really made of were hard percentage chance to survive is that health insurance covers non sanitarium care but it almost covers you know. Very little of the care provided in a sanitarium setting and life the medicine is making changes in that slowly but surely. With the intensive cardiac rehab programs Ornish Benson critic and these programs. Are being reimbursed. By insurance and by Medicare and that's that in my opinion that is what I wish we would have had the foresight to do was as the health insurance started taking hold you know for hospital care and non Senate and care I wish we would have been able to do the research and show that Senator Kerry in treatment is in fact medical care and and medically indicated and should be reimbursed that is the goal of the American College of life some medicine for it to be by the way is to. Create reimbursement for lifestyle medicine and it's coming it's going to happen. Great Gray All right moving on here and for those if your question you could type in the top up we're going to get your question is. Right on this one here is a very interesting question why should a Christian she says this is why should a Christian position who is believing looking waiting long for the coming you know Christ. Will no longer How old is he more. Than the Christian editor or the Christian minister she says it's working at this and you know you know I think. I think. We were. It's hard to attract doctors to work at us and in the hazel little. Quest of this well. And I think for those who want to start and Terry Holmes challenges they know how to be fine. With others. And you comment on this is the lead up to John I know you try to change things for the American College here in Alaska and this is a very quickly and then one of them to my you know your own prison story. Just quickly called John Well I would say that 1st up this counsel is clear and I agree with it and I don't I do not receive or expect or ask for pay any more than a pastor in fact when I was involved after I left Loma Linda come back to my home country state of Virginia and we started a church affiliated watchdog clinic I was paid at the same rate as our pastor. And I believe I mean. You know we say it's hard I heard you say it's hard to attract physicians because they can make so much well if they are aware of this council and there are. And they still expect. Exorbitant pay. There's a spiritual problem in my opinion and I mean I'm not. I love these people and you know their colleagues so many of them were Loma Linda graduates but that's not what the council said and we need to obey the council Secondly. The fact is that. I was acquainted with the license and of America from its early days I mean I was there as a medical student rotating I think they had only been going like 2 years when I 1st visit there and I was associated off and on with them and sell they went out of. Business and what I can tell you is that the beginning of the end for the last us and America was when they replaced the mission minded physicians with non mission minded physicians their whole approach is very different they they want to they were it seems to me they were trying to get to increase the qualifications and so they started paying higher pay and what they got were were doctors who were used to getting that kind of pay but but the mission minded physicians have a different approach I mean I want to spend time with a patient I'm not I I simply will not work where I cannot spend time with the patients no point in me titrating the electrolytes in the medications and never having a chance to pray with them or talk about spiritual things I don't work there I don't do that kind of work yes it pays twice or 3 times what I can make and it's the sanitarium physician but oh my goodness the last things being able to be involved in evangelism is unspeakable there's no price you can put on them and to Mark very quickly. Yeah I completely agree. I mean I came to You Tube pines and I was the medical director and president I was making less money than I was making in the high school working on the health food store. So you know and that was going to apply in this with a significant educational debts and a family my wife and I have 4 children now we have 6. And one adopted and and so you know we are you know the question was really how is the lord going to supply the Neda when we really don't have the resources and there is no real promise for help and from asked and point that I was reading about there's a late history at the time and Israel coming out of Egypt and going through the wilderness and coming into the Promised Land and I realized that the Lord was able to supply the need of well over 2000000 people in the middle of the desert with apparently no resources he brought water he brought food he brought everything that they needed their sandals didn't wear out they weren't sick I mean everything went the way that they needed to go in the midst of the desert in order for those people to be able to make it through and all the time that they were there and and so if you was able to supply their nadir he can supply my needs the lack is not money or finances gone House all of that all the gold and silver is mine so it's a large the lack is faith and people that have that faith and are going to be willing to step out with it and you know face sacrifice now currently I am debt free my school loans are paid off I have never gone without a meal except if I was purposely fasting my wife and I Our family has purchased 3 separate vehicles not brand new you know and we looked really good deals and and so on and one of those we purchased even when we only had $300.00 in the bank. You know and we got a 5000. $400.00 vehicle that should have been probably $8000.00 or so and you know it and it's because we had the ministry in need at the time for having the vehicle and just kept praying about it and asking the Lord and he brought circumstances and situations around in order to make that happen and we have seen over and over again where the Lord has provided where we did how in the world he was going to provide that he does it and if you step out in faith and you trust him anew in a way following his ass way he will work out the financing man while you are being faithful with with your side of the issue and not being careless with the little finances that he has given to you. Limited market that's really easy you know with all the young. Folks with the job you know maybe the game or the next generation. The abit. More inclined to look at the why. Not question to both. Of the foyer. Caught up in the question. This is the one I really want to follow nobody was issued with the church so here you go that's most likely another commission work become more then there will be a and b. to make it. And. Then need this plan. So I think like the people struggle with this life what should be the relations with the organized tour. What exactly should be that is. Controlled by ethical regime in on laying the meat on to mark the hole and then. Well I am in a current in our current situation where we're seeking to bridge that gap Well I was the president of Egypt climbs on our medical director and and I'm also the health ministry as director of the conference seeking to kind of bridge that gap between the conference and. The supporting organizations and again we are supporting organizations we are seeking how we might be able to support the church not you know be against the church and so on and I think that has been a predominant. Attitude amongst the supporting and ministries whether they are lifestyle centers or whether they are training programs educational facilities that may not be owned and operated by they are going to church but they are definitely a 100 percent staffed by. Honest they're following the council and they're seeking to support the church and you know and maneuver people into you know the conferences and so we have quite a few individuals that have come to you 2 pints that are pastors are in union positions or conference positions. And and are very supportive of the church now as far as the a as far as the idea as far as ownership is concerned. You know I think that that both some models are models that can be seen in the spirit of prophecy. She did advocate that that. That's a lifestyle centers you know that we should have them that are that are owned and operated by the 7th Day Adventist Church but she was also very instrumental in starting Madison and Madison specifically I mean under her instruction was not to be placed under the ownership of the church directly and while she was there later after the school was going to she said All right this spot where we're at right now here this is a good place for you guys to have a sanitarium and within you know a couple days it was plowed. Place was you know they were getting ready to do that and so under her instruction you had an institution that was not owned and operated by as they had on church and it was developing under her in her direction a lifestyle center sanitarium in that location as well so we see both of those models but there really again the purpose is to work together it's for the salvation of souls it is to work in unity to work in harmony and I would really love to see more lifestyle centers that are directly owned and operated by the church and see those operating I've seen one I've seen one down in Brazil. And that I have been to and I have visited and I think there's probably a couple others around the world that are way out that way but I'd love to see more of those. Yeah I appreciate to share that to mark the thing I say I do think however that the self-supporting work was a different from what this statement is talking about here and I do agree that she obviously wanted there to to be. A branch of the work called self-supporting that was not under the conference management and control but this statement I believe that we have on the screen is talking about a different situation in my opinion and so I agree with you I'd love to see sanitarium or lifestyle center work as done by the Conference and in fact I've I have chosen multiple times in my career not to take a position that would have been desirable in some ways because it was too independent of the church I don't want to do that I want to for French really work with God's people it's frustrating of course because we're all sinners and we're all selfish and we all have all the all of our faults and they're on display of course and our church is a very political entity if you if you ever worked with the church this is not a criticism this is a statement of fact that there's a lot of political maneuvering that's not very pretty but it is God's Church it's the apple of his eyes and we can do the do the work with the conference and I'm very very supportive. That the one thing I will say about what's happened that makes this difficult is that because the church has hospitals one hospital systems and there's a salary ranges you cannot right now operate sanitariums on the same. Payscale is hospitals because the reimbursement the the payer funds are not there and so until we can get life some medicine reimbursed like like pharmaceutical medicine or surgery we won't be able to operate a lifestyle center on the salary level of the conference you know medical pay scale. But I do believe that that that's our goal should be our goal I don't have I mean I know I haven't drawn pay as a physician since I left Loma Linda I don't think I I by choice I volunteer almost every where I have been paid where I get right actually do except pay is when I'm training physicians I don't generally accept for treating patients but I do accept pay for training physicians and so I know that it's possible and just like Mark shared I have never been hungry I'm never been without transportation and sometimes I've had things given to me that I don't know how the person knew I needed that but it was just so wonderful that thank God he you know you provided. Well you know one. You know those who believe the other weaponized you know that we try very very strictly time so it is here no 8 so if you have to be. You can do so freely to John and Dr Martin you have to time to answer questions so those we want to stick around and pick their brains will be rewound there are bond in your time so stick around and sue questions but if you have to leave it. With us so we'll get to some questions of each other to mark it as Ok. We're going quarter so early as well here are. Dr cannot in any other question this is why why do the speakers or yourself think and him work it isn't mystics kind of going back to where and why does he use that term. You only see that you know. Who what where what would you. Well I'll go 1st mark so my thinking is that this is I think she used this term because it's the mystery of God in this in my opinion in my belief system in understanding it's when we combine visible healing and spiritual evangelistic effort that's the the if you will the mystic stone of the gospel. The everlasting Gospel that we need and so I believe you know that statement she says that soon I was detail that soon there will be no work done a minister in lines but medical missionary work this this is where we are I believe our prophesied is going to happen we are we're going to find the medical missionary work is going to be the single embodiment if you will of the ministry of Christ and so that's my that's what I think the term mystics stone is talking about I think and divine you know thought. Well it talks about the stone being and stink to West life and so it's not usual for us to think about a stone being alive and that's one of the things again that's kind of I guess the mystic notion of it and it's rolled by an invisible hand in a gross what rolls and so here you have something where of course the invisible hand it's really lated to God He's the one that's rolling the stone and wall the stone is in motion right it's not when it's still that well the stone is in motion it's it is growing and has a life and and when it's set in motion and you can imagine that this is probably on the side of a hill that as as this is put in motion that it's going to it's going to continue to grow it's going to continue to gather inertia God it's going to. She knew to use it and another analogy that she uses as many stream coming together into a single stream and down covering the entire earth and I think the stone analogy is one where it's approximating again those little stream lights that are coming together and forming the whole you know covering the whole earth. And oh and one other saying as is. The other reference to Mystic stone is the one that was cut out without hands and struck damage and the toes right in the feet and then was set up as a mountain that could not be could not be removed and so I think that a. A a central component of God's kingdom. Has never elastic number is going to be. A lifestyle centers of the medical missionary work. Could be a question of going to a label because going back to the side of the sentence so he's asked to clarify and he didn't fully understand how small is small business. So why is that about $100.00 beds was. So mad you know not knowing what was now that was the maximum massive Yeah Ok Ok so whole l.n. has your question if it doesn't then you ask the question you couldn't use a. 100 Beth NASA was kind of. Saying. Ok. How these schools this is the great schools all these universities should be connecting this and. She. Well I think that we have really clear counsel that there is synergy for a school and a sanitarium to work together I am not aware of this specific council saying this energy for grade school but I but I know that children godly children can are tremendous. Or so I say blessing and to grandparents age patients I mean I see it all the time in lifestyle centers where we have children on campus that interact in the evening programs let's say with patients and and Yes and it's very positive but as far as the school. I will say one thing I think that we haven't tapped into and that is I do believe one of the center G.'s between schools and sanitariums involves agriculture no agriculture is a.b.c. avenge occasions so every school theoretically and and according to the council should have some kind of Agriculture gardening program well that would be great synergy for a lifestyle medicine sanitarium because we need to be growing our own food to the extent we can. To market economists. Similarly we're told that the school should be associated with sanitariums and sanitariums at the schools I agree I don't I haven't found anything at Spirit of Prophecy that indicates that that is on an elementary level. But on a high school college level that's definitely the case and sanitariums were were meant to were. Sorry were meant to be associated with students and helping to train them and there was going to be a cross synergy between the 2 so the schools would be benefited by the sanitariums of the sanitariums would be benefited by the schools. I'll tell you frankly frankly many adults appreciate physiology education that's at a level an elementary student can understand sometimes that we get above the person's understanding and that's not nearly as satisfying to them as when it's it's explained in a very simple way. Great great Ok just a few more questions here so if you don't mind so Gabriel mean you know there isn't much of a how home based. Home based. Thing so what. Kind of. Well I did Mark Dr Martin jump in so let me now I thought about that is I have had I believe my wife and I have had a home that we operated as I would say a home style sanitarium that was before I was a physician actually and we had people neighbors that we had you know that we helped take care of and some cases they stayed overnight but oftentimes it was just. Teaching them a healthy dietary and giving them instruction and how to do hide therapy treatments but I mean a home style sanitarium is. Then Elegy I would use is homeschooling I mean when I 1st started doing homeschooling my kids probably 35 years ago or something and and initially we had we tried to duplicate what the kids were doing at school you know we had classrooms we had a we had a schedule we had a desk you know we made it look like a school and as we did this more we realized you know that's that's not where the learning is not about having a classroom setting and we because we became less and less structured and more more engaged and and the kids loved it more and we liked it more. And so in a similar way I think you can overdo trying to make a home like a sent him home style set exam is more homelike than it is Senate time like. Whoopsies on mute. Right there again. And it could be that others are muted and I count on me at themselves you're setting my be on. That if they can I mean it themselves. Yeah in regards to that absolutely I think that that I think that home home like sanitariums are going to great idea they're great opportunity. And exactly as John said it should be more homelike and less sanitarium like. And so you know just simply living with the family eating with a family. Getting accustomed to the regular add the national lifestyle. And it doesn't have to be heavy on treatments or anything else like that you just you know you just eat with them and say well hey this is healthy and those things are not and maybe you have videos sitting around and you're going to show them you know different videos under aspects go out to the garden work together go for a walk talk. You know talk about their life and and what you've learned from the Bible and you know and other types of things like that Franklin coasts had a very good presentation at a man a number of years ago and at the time there was well basically a $2000000000.00 investment in a church building. In order to end up with about oh I don't know run 800000 patients ads and he was highlighting that if we just spent $250000.00 per property wake and purchased $8000.00 properties around however many places have an Adventist family in each of those properties with one extra room just one extra room and you would have $8000.00 beds where where people could come to and you know they could they could just be there and just learn the lab and his lifestyle by half by living with a family you know and how much how much benefit would that have and it highlights the benefit of having things smaller rather than bigger. Right because the bigger it gets them are complicated it is more expensive it is to continue to function the more staffing that you have to have in the middle in order to make things function with communication and so on and so forth a so small it is more efficiently that it can run and it can function and you know I mean even the cheap pines that you pine we only have 20 you know 20 guest rooms we have a maximum of 40 people that we could take. And I don't think we've ever seen that many many ways but you know but even then there's there's a lot of staffing and there's a lot of expense that goes into the ancillary services that help to make that think function but if it was smaller it was if it was a bunch of even smaller places then the same amount of money that takes to run huge high and could run probably multiple other smaller little facilities that would end up having at least the same capacity that usually does. Daywear who's to say the close ups of just one last question just very quickly tickle the so this is a as a question. So you know these losses you know you love cooking classes a lot of the physical. Issues with. Other factors you know. Like this is just. That's not that's the physical more the other for me just those that are lost and. Well I am thinking of a Haitian that we had. Last year at a program I was doing in Michigan my wife and there was a lady who came she did have some who definitely she had some health issues she more or less had metabolic syndrome and and those kind of things lifestyle disease was in her forty's she was not an elderly person a mother with children at home and we quickly discovered that something was amiss besides physical and it turned out that her marriage was in deep deep trouble and things were were very challenging and and so I brought my wife in to the visits with her being a lady number one and number 2 so there are 2 of us and we and my life and I are married people we have married people problems we we've worked through some of the some of well we've we haven't had any that we haven't worked through obviously cuz we're still here but my point is. Way of saying that we have some experience with challenges in the marriage I think every married couple do some time and long story short it was the thing that she most. Appreciated about the time and our immersion program was actually not the medical It was the counseling and advice and praying together and you know a confidential ear that she could talk to without having to you know condemnation or having to explain and we know we were there to to pray together we told her we we if you're just going to complain about your husband we would rather not hear that but if we want to talk about relationships talk about what God is able to do we'll talk about that freely with you so anyway yes there are definitely patients that come to a lifestyle center that the main problem is not a physical health problem go out and I find it wonderful environment for dealing with those things if you're willing you know we have to be willing to engage because some people. I know some physicians their approach would be you know I'm not trained in that I don't know anything about marriage counseling Well I don't either but I know I'm married now. Yes I see that spiritual issues underlie every other thing that comes along and so there are social logical issues relationship issues but there are economic issues as well that impact that as well we are told that. If everyone did as well as they knew to do that 90 percent of diseases would disappear right so so that means that even Whatever your context is in whatever situation that you're And if you do at least as well as you know and then 90 percent of individuals are going to heal from that and so there is a gap in. What we know and what we do and so that gap really is a spiritual gap and it's something that comes back app can only be filled by the one who never had that gap and that was Jesus Jesus never had a gap between what he knew and what he did he always did you know and so to connect them to Christ who was the one who was gap left is the one who can then close the gap for them and a faith relationship with them and and then as they do that whatever their situation that's And God will work with them and he has a 1000 ways where they have not and so they might be in a social economic situation where it feeds them possible but it's not because God has a way of getting them out of this and so if we can bring them and attach them to Christ and they can put their faith and trust in Him then He can work with them through His Holy Spirit Day by day and whatever their context whatever their situation has in order to bring them to freedom in Christ. Was you saw a large guy who preceding the Times actually saw. Several of us you know a lot of the real good in here in Ontario. And we really appreciate in that you you got to the table. A lot less it was a little you know because you know we think he's going to join me we are as we have recorded this interview planted a little bit and how did. You just you know this who are really into that you know we're we want you to connect with others who can live with this love and. They can learn those of you those who are insured also you know you hear a lot of messages do the a lot is an awful lot on that and also on health is that all of this and this allows a lot of it is just always you hope you continue to check in just. Really more of a sense of what. No we Dr John Dr Miles could continue to come on in the future to injury so now you will be joining in and we really appreciate it and I hope that this new person to you and really less get the mystic's rolling. So I think you will be joining our thank you to Mark and. If you know I would like to ask nothing George would you pray that God will bless there's this stone and and the mighty things whether it will yes yellers closes with a prayer service and still that. Word if you really stated that I sent him with one of the most effective means of reaching people you really want your church to get him. Oh you want to just pay for one of the color that you really you know as a variance as a college to make this loyally I wasn't sure resources and we didn't we ask that you give us a source for Dr John Dr Mark and their contributions to you as a lawyer there you go after John's work. And you just can't miss it to me as a mother. If we're in a place here in North America you know. The city is in his house in many places as you transport. But we trust you him we who want to use like. This be our Scrooge pray in Jesus. 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