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  • September 7, 2020
    9:00 AM

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It totally stinks it totally smells and it's probably want to worst places but sometimes that's where Jesus wants you to be it's the church find out more on this episode of inverse. Coming to you from Silver Spring Maryland welcome to. The Bible Thanks conversation or my. Contemporary Issues. Just with anything. I may have heard those phrases before I am anti organized religion or you met people who are anti church and you got to Granted this church can be kind of bad sometimes and this episode will look at what is the function of church and how does church play into your discipleship into your organic relationship with Jesus in a studio with me today are my dear friends and we're so glad to be in the studio after all these months of social distancing we are good to be face to face with each other and even our introverted ones are are getting really extroverted with some of their anecdotes we're going to have a word of prayer with Jonathan and we'll get into the study All right let's pray Heavenly Father read just when invited to be with us now especially as we look into the world as we try to understand better what church and discipleship and church have to do with each other and Lord which is pray to do spirit. Will give us insights that we haven't seen before and or Bless us and of us in Jesus name Amen Amen Amen. Israel we've been looking at the cycle ship and what are some highlights what do you remember that are good episodes or give us. Wind us up to this point well we've just finished dealing with the process of the side of cultivating and we've been using the analogy of the garden and now we're dealing with the question of cultivating and harvesting and preserving preserving sowing and just the whole process as it aligns to gardening Ok and how we're now we're dealing with you. Now we're we're shifting from agriculture to fishing that's what we're going to talk about fishing for people and what happens there and the main question is when we're fishing for people when we're working with people what are we winning them to where are they going to go and we're going to be dealing with that today and yet there's a lot of a lot of negative press out there on church Yeah I mean there are some people who are like churchgoers I love church to death and there's others who think church as deaf right so all wonder what what what what are some in correct views of church out there let's start with there and we'll get into the Bible but let's address some of those that that you guys have all encountered and maybe you still battle with today and we need to talk about and are now well one in correct for you or if you did maybe has been developed by the church even Ok is that it's a place for my to our weekly fix to have some kind of spiritual input or to do my dues you know just this is what I have to do in order to be a good Christian check it off my list and then as a church we often cater to that attitude by cramming everything we can into 2 hours and then that's it and so it's this 2 hour moment maybe one hour who knows a week or so to kind of get my spiritual spiritual spiritual high of the week Ok as like a comment to this claim or a comment. But I mean I totally agree and there are those who who have had that tradition for so long enough that they think that is our salvation and that's church and that is a great you're saying Ok We're going to run and so you could because she's also want to chime in you're Ok for a pastor's perspective I think. In many situations church has become an organization where people who were never able to make it as C.E.O.'s of big companies will call themselves C.E.O.'s of these churches and I think in some. In some respects I think that's that's happened at least in the United States you know now you have. Essentially the leader of an organization a volunteer. Non-profit organization the senior or they had a pastor and I have a bunch of associates that work for me and this guy is in charge of administration was George was and so church has become a nonprofit for princes ation the court order wow man if you want to comment Israel's email address is all Ramos 1417. That's I'm telling you know that you're here your incorrect use of the church. He is coming from the pastor perspective from the church member perspective church as a place where you come to get into taint so we're busy watching the screen all week long and you know keeping my attention span engaged and then we come to church and expect a performance expect to be entertained for an hour or 2 once a week or so. All right thank you. I don't know where to go after that that's these these are all true are they bad they are bad because ultimately they the problem I think the underlying foundational issue with all of these models is that they're focused on self and we go to church more than not we go to church for personal reasons for personal development to get our own temporary fix to you know feed our egos to you know get our social dose for the week and that's not the purpose of church at all that the purpose of church was never for. Personal development but it was rather for bringing other people into it. You know another incorrect view that falls into all of this is that we see church as a place we go to church as a building and you know especially during this cove in 1000 pandemic it has become very obvious all the churches are shut down at least here and the church is not a building it is people and it's what we do as believers in God And so this is another incorrect view is that the inquiry is that it is just a building I go to the church is that building but not realizing the Church is you know. So we've been looking at discipleship and we're looking at church now and how did it to intersect Why does a disciple go to church What's the connection point and we'll go to Obama verse after that well there are several reasons I think 1st Jesus has one when he gives that you know what we know as a great commission he says Go make disciples of all people and then he says that these disciples are to be baptized when you look at the New Testament church your Bab baptism is entrance into a church into a church organ into an organizational structure of believers and still the whole purpose of making disciples was to grow the actual Church of Christ and Jesus talks about the establishment of a church upon this rock I will build My church and so the point of the site. Bush it was to establish God's New Testament Church on earth and they're called out that's what you know the word church comes from the Greek word ecclesia which means to be called out away from you know the world and sin into this new kingdom of God This is what church this is what the disciple is called out to be and so as a disciple you are leaving the earthly realm so to say the focus on self and sin and you're not entering into this community of people who focus on Christ and on their purpose in this world you know one increase you that that I grapple with and I see often is that people who think the church as a community of the saved I need to be a member of this church and then I am saved or the church as they're the reflection of the Kingdom of God When God is saying we need to grow the kingdom of God the kingdom of God is expanding what he's talking about the church and there are some church organisations that play off of that and so the church may have some say people may not have some say people in and out in the world there may be some say people out there and there may be some nazi people out in the world so if church doesn't really help does it help in your salvation is it fine of yourself vision do you not have to go to church and other c.q. you're nodding all over and give us some light in that respect. Although I did I make yes and no it was yes no no yes this is this that touch me same that being in the church doesn't mean that hearsay and I think at the beginning when you were talking about the stink and now that you know about the Ark which was when God sent the flood to destroy the whole world and that was the ark that he told no one to build that was the medium how that was supposed to be saved but but. Being in the ark didn't mean that it wasn't it was. Most comfortable place to be made and yet in order to reach salvation or to attain salvation that's the way through which God had intended for them to attain to salvation so the church may not be perfect in them may not be full of perfect people may not be people full of people who are making all the right choices all the time and yet through their church God wants to do a work in our lives so so that's ours. All over the place and you're asking and I think you know I think God is very practical to he says that the church is his body so it's his extension of His presence in this world the Holy Spirit living in his people sharing who Jesus is and so on and the practicality comes in that when we are when we are called away from the world into God's You know Kingdom and living for him and with him we are not just called out to hang out and say this is the kingdom of God and we are so holy know it is for a purpose to spread the Gospel and that has to happen in a more organized fashion and if you want to be effective and so the church is a tool an organization that for the purpose of spreading the truth about God and His Love to the world so that so that the world prepared when he I love that we talk about what the church isn't and Jonathan you brought us back to what the church really is it is the Body of God the Body of Christ and I love that there is a a mission statement of the church is to spread the gospel and there's a lot of people who are out there who are anti organized religion and they're and they're not really anti the organization or the religion they're anti the mission of that particular organization it may be for financial gain it may be for property gain it may be for to dominate another society or whatnot and these are these are abuses that religion has as has done but real Bible religion is to spread the gospel of Jesus yes and in many cases in many cases actually would Jesus saying in Scripture really has you know it exposes the same the very same sins that society is experiencing the same same perspective and but but the issue is that Christ never intended the church to do that you know society government exists in order to bring about you know the ideals of a society right we have we're part of the country and and this country to make it better more prosperity more peace a care of its people. And in a very similar but very different way the church is the means by which God accomplishes the kingdom of heaven puts the kingdom of heaven in our hearts prepares us for the future kingdom of heaven to God and allows us to be ambassadors in a foreign country to bring people into a country whose builder and maker it is all government can come into place and can enact laws and rules that govern people's behavior and then have the appearance of peace and prosperity and what good behavior by Jesus saying hey I want the same objective but not just through force or through rules and through artificial structure but for the change on the inside Yeah I mean this is the beauty of the Gospel that that that we can all partake in right so we come back after the break we're going to look at this interaction between Peter and Jesus and a campfire and how that is a wonderful picture for our experience at church not church just as in a regular worship once a week thing but church in the way that the New Testament portrays of so stay with us. Has embraced been a blessing to you Do you have questions comments or feedback you'd like to leave us or find us on social media by searching for spyware on Facebook Twitter Instagram for you to while there join us like us comes up next I'll handle again and invest Bible Mel States now back to the discussion. A welcome back we are in John Chapter 17 is where we are where we are in what we're going to go now John Chapter 18 and we're looking at different aspects on discipleship and in terms of church and how church fits into this there's a very interesting phrase found in John Chapter 18 verse 8 seen 1818. And Jonathan you can read that for sure. 1818 so they're not of servants and officers who have made a fire of coals stood there for it was cold and they want themselves and Peter stood with them and warm to himself Ok and they want to compare that's go to couple chapters afterwards John 21. Verse I don't know where we're 21 1st 9 verse 9 and then see if you can read verse 9 for us 21 verse 9 please then as soon as they had come to land they saw a fire of coals there and fish laid on it and bread All right so this phrase fire of coals is found in only those 2 verses in the entire New Testament and in the Bible there are coals of fire and we'll have fire of coals and so John is very very intentionally bringing these 2 experiences together what's what's what what does one of those 2 pastors have anything to do with each other. Well the 1st passage is dealing with the betrayal of Christ you know Peter's between betrayal of Christ and it's the book the design of ages speaks very profoundly about this you know and it portrays the fact that as Peter warmed himself and people asked him a Aren't you one of the disciples of Jesus and then he he denied Christ and it was then that the rooster crowed and then he actually looked and saw Jesus at that very moment and Jesus saw Peter and the desire to just talk about a sack religious hand slap in the face of Christ as he encounters the face of Peter so this is Peter's You know it's the apex of Peter's brokenness you know as a matter of fact later on in a different book I think the book education will then say that if Jesus had given Peter any other look at the look of compassion what would have how what would have made the difference he would have just been like another Judas right and so you have the apex of the brokenness of Peter. And which is a powerful point that Jesus is thinking about Peter's future and his heart and his spiritual condition in life even though he's being in the midst of the betrayal and he's about to die some right at that amazing right and and that's I think that's part of the fact I mean if anyone places themselves in that situation of course I mean you would be suicidal right now you've just said Master I'm not going to betray you the law man betray you and then boom this happens and then you have these calls and you fast forward that Jesus died he's resurrected and now you're back in that same exact setting and you're Peter you're in that same exact setting there are those coals now you have the same encounter face to face encounter with Jesus and Jesus then asks the question of Peter do you love me then feed my flock do you love me to be my father you love me to be my flock and so to me this is a powerful illustration of the fact that these calls represent the restoration of Peter from his fallenness. To now a leader in the church still broken you know still faulty but restored to do the service of Jesus Christ and this is what I think Church represents for us we're fallen human beings we've betrayed Jesus I mean in ways as bad or worse than Peter and then Jesus is constantly saying come to communion with me come to the coals of fire and there have restoration let me allow me to restore you to build your own confidence to build the confidence of the people to know you've betrayed me and to commission you to do my work so sure it's not a community of the saved and of the elite and then the one that states they clean from everyone it is a community of grace that accepts and is part of that that transformation process by God's grace and I know I'm saying a lot here but this I have to say this because this goes it goes right against the pastor as the c.e.o. I mean here Peter is Peter is exposing his most vulnerable way you know like Peter in front of all your friends do you love me and everybody knows like Do you remember you just betrayed him do you love me more than these guys love me. You know you know I love you right and in his most vulnerable time Jesus as you're called to feed my flock and these ideas that we have of Peter being infallible and the pope and all these different things they go against the narrative of scripture and this is the beauty of the church this is this is a great example here for each and all of us I mean we're all like Peter we have all betrayed Christ to have all fallen short you know and so in that sense it is so beautiful to see the compassion of Christ to see how he invites us into this community community experience and this is what church is about to be invited as you said into a community of grace where there is you know healing there's forgiveness there's training and then there are for the purpose of them call a bring and becoming you know an effective discipline fisher of men I mean Jesus was roasting some fish they were fishing they had another miracle it's just Jesus this is very intentional in how he sets up the situation room minding these guys of what he has called them to do and even afterward because it was not just Peter who reject Jesus all of them ran away they all felt guilty and shameful even you know you think of the resurrection they didn't even believe that he was resurrected so but Jesus this is so beautiful about his character this is how treats he treats us we can see ourselves in the story and noted church is a place of grace of of learning and growing and for the purpose of them becoming fishers of men. And looking at this work of this contrast between Peter's experience and. For the system of Israel is. That Peter when he receives that look of compassion from Christ there's a level of he had to accept the grace that was being offered to him by Jesus rather than stand pridefully And you know my ideas were what whatever what I thought Jesus should be you know didn't come about to be so those level of humility that Peter. I had to. Accept the brokenness and you know what except being broken I guess the through that experience and then sitting at the feet of Jesus sitting with Jesus by those calls if I again sitting in the same context in which he had come face to face with his friends realty with his failures with his weakness the man who said even though all men will feel safe you I will not miss a q. and sitting there in that context and now you have to accept that I said I loved him before but now I'm going to say Do I really mean it you know. So accepting our own weakness in the face of you know Christ's faithfulness these a beginning place for what a church environment ought to be because when we realize that we are weak and we are broken then when a place to accept other people while weak and broken not because we are strong but because Jesus has accepted me and that's what becomes the foundation for creating this community of acceptance and outside of that there is no way I can accept somebody else's broken because I'm sitting there in judgment over them but when I see my own broken compared to tease us there's no way I can be judging you I just want you to see what Jesus did for me just me and he knew me you know as you're talking I'm thinking there is a certain disconnect because sometimes we're afraid of church because there's debts we're all the perfect people are but we actually need a church up on perfect broken to people who have experienced the grace of God for them for me to be to meet them for me to also experience healing but so but these acts these impositions we have actually prevent a critter barrier for us to receive that grace. Chapter 21 is very profound there are multiple images that Christ is creating here on one level he's trying to he's trying to feed them but you want whatever Jesus something he's not doing just for the sake of for that and I'm also thinking like is he after he resurrected and he could've gone on to heaven and continue his ministry up there but he's. Hanging out with the disciple like he's cleaning up right after all the trauma that got there and coming back so I really see that here. Verse 9 as soon as they come to land they saw qualifiers there so he's actually recreating that qualifier is that that Peter experience Peter and Chapter 18 I love the phrases appear warm to him self like the penny of what he's cold he's just living that from self he doesn't care about Jesus he's warming themselves and maybe every time he sees that fire coals he's thinking of of the betrayal gene here Jesus recreates that there's one other images you see I see the 3 times he denies Jesus 3 times Jesus asks him Do You Love Me Do You Love Me Do you love me he recreates the fishing episode he recreates the feeding the malt the miracle of this and the bread I love in verse 19 he says all this and that he says follow me the 1st 2 words I call them is now the 1st last like that the end is full circle this is beautiful cause is so beautiful see the goose bumps Yes why don't you guys see there there's something if I want to read from the book desiré just page 15 because if you mean what discipleship and it says here is written by a what it says the question that Christ had put to Peter was significant he mentioned only one condition of discipleship and service love this thou me he said this is the essential qualification though Peter my possess every other year without love without the love of Christ he could not be a faithful shepherd over the Lord's flock knowledge benevolence eloquence gratitude and zeal are all aid in the good work but without the love of Jesus in the heart the work of the Christian minister is a failure and this is it's essential for me because. Whether we find ourselves on the gifted side or on the ungifted side this becomes a neutralizer. There are moments when I feel like I'm not adequate and the question comes to me Do you love me then if you love me be my disciple she feed the sheep and there are moments when I feel like I have way too many qualifications and I actually do write I think like man I'm pretty good and then this ultimately neutralizes out as well as funny and as crazy as it is that sometimes we do think that we're better than we are to this reminds me like Could it be that I feel like I have all these different gives yet I lack the one gift that is the qualification for the essential gift and so I love that that is portrayed in in this story. If I can to speak to something very practical. We have all been to many churches and this is the reality that sometimes it doesn't feel like a community of grace so much reckon vulnerable and we can talk maybe we don't even have a chance to talk to in church because we're just being you know fed and retain whatever it is but I just want to encourage our viewers to consider establishing you know a coal fire have a small group where you have a smaller setting where you can connect with people you know eat together like Jesus did with disciples share Scripture read it read something the Bible together spent time together and develop you know have your house church sort of say because that is a place where you can be vulnerable with each other you can grow together you have you can have more of that experience because I'm pretty sure a lot of our viewers might not have that experience themselves or they can join a small group many churches do have small groups you know just one encourage them I have personally been so blessed through a small group ministries and that is something that I can only highly recommend to anyone. I want to piggyback on your practicality there Jesus says in verse 151617 there he says Simon Peter Simon son of Jonah do you love me more than these yes the Lord you know that I love you. And he says feed my lamb 2nd round he says. What is that and my sheep 3rd time around he says. Yeah he said well yeah the verse for 17 feed my sheep sheep So it's he he does the restoration of Peter right he's cleaning up so to speak and after Peter's restore is like Ok now you're feeling good he doesn't do that and now he's given marching orders so this community of grace and this is Peter is the leader of this community builds this community where you accept people and you express forgiveness and you're cleansed and now you're dispatched out and you can be trained now you've got to feed and tend to take care of others so when it's not only going to church to be fed but now to go and to learn to feed so we need to find these communities where that are authentic and open and whatnot but also churches that will train me in churches that will give me opportunities to go out and we want to encourage you out there that if you had negative experiences with church we want to have we want to secure our relationship with Jesus 1st not the church the church is just this extra knolls a dent I'm that sure ain't us on how to be more effective workers for the Lord Jesus Jesus this has been my experience the church has been great but it's when I look at churches How can I bring other people to church and train to train all of us we can be more effective more effective disciples for the Lord Jesus hopefully even less I mean this has been a very profound talk and you can be talking for another half hour but you can go to in verse by without words and get a Bible study guides on the entire quarter on discipleship and also go to hope t v dot or Jeep slash and verse and look at all the past episodes God bless you guys will see you here next week on inverse. You've been listening to inverse a Bible based part of the station the Kalinga is wrong Jonathan Walter Sebastian Braxton. And your host Justin. Inverses brought to you by the hope channel television that changes lives for good and more inspiring episodes there's an inverse hope t.v. news that Origen find us on social media. In the 1st 5 until next time this isn't verse.


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