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Logo of Inverse, 3rd Quarter 2021: Sexuality

06 Marital Sexuality: Twoness

Israel Ramos Justin Kim Sikhu Daco Jonathan Walter



  • August 2, 2021
    9:00 AM
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How is number 2 better than one or 3 on this episode of the inverse? The coming to you from silverspring, maryland. Welcome to in the bible based compensation on my dental contemporary issues and thought provoking. Justin can with in bye everyone, my name is Justin came and you're watching inverse in a studio with, with me is C qu, israel and jonathan. So hello, you guys. Hello. We are in a study of the topic of biblical sexuality. And we wanna encourage you to, if you have minors in the area in the listening vicinity, we want to warn that we are looking in a sensitive topic and just be mindful of, of the topic nature, the sensitivity of it. We're going to go into ecclesiastics chapter 2. We're gonna have to prayer, and we'll talk about the topics that I mention at the top of the show in the opener, about the abstract number 2. And why that is found in scripture and not the number one number or more than 2. So let's go to pray. And Johnson can you pray for the heavenly father. We were to find you again to describe a study that you will help us understand more about your law for us and to love that humans can experience with each other. Lord, I pray that you will give insights and that you will bless this study in jesus name. He met my name and Okay, we cover so many things from week to week. And israel, for those of our viewers who are, or maybe for the 1st time watching what's, what's, what have we hit, what are some things that you remember and resonate with up to this point. We've been discussing the topic of sexuality from the perspective of the bible and what we've talked about from the very beginning of our time together was a fact that we are culturally condition to live by certain scripts. And these things form not just how we view other cultures, but even how we view this very sensitive topic of sexuality. And so we talked about our need to have the bible as the center of our understanding. This is how we evaluate this topic. This topic of sexuality, and this is what centers us, this is what helps us define what real sexuality should look like. From the perspective of scripture, we talked about how the bible talks to us in very open and politic terms about this very beautiful topic. Really, the topic of one is between a man and a woman within the marriage context and how this is actually for taste of what the relationship that god wants to have with us. How his relationship with the, with us is not just a, some kind of a cognitive contract, but it is, god is in fact madly in love with this creation. That's why his love for us is even stronger than death. And so that's kind of where we've led up from our previous each episode has been really profound for me. I mean, we're really says kind of a weird topic and a little bit edgy. But at the same time we're talking about very, very deep spiritual principles. And very biblical principles and challenging. The other thing is that this is really acknowledging god as the creator of sexuality. So if you don't believe that god is the creator, if you don't leave and got it all, then this has this, this doesn't really apply. This is not a judgment on all the other practices out there, but if you acknowledge that the existence of god and his lordship over your personal life, then there are instructions on how engage in this and in sexual sexuality. Let's go to increase yes to chapter 2. Verse one through 11, and that's our verse for this week study. You can go to inverse bible dot orgy and download our bible study guides, where we look at comprehensively, different topics all throughout scripture. This quarter, we're looking at biblical sexuality, so secret readings, jesse's chapter 2, 1st one through 11, please. All right. I said in my heart, come now, I will test you with mirth, therefore, enjoy pleasure. But surely this also was van. I said of laughter, madness and of mirth. What does it accomplish? I flushed in my heart how to gratify, gratify my flesh with wine, while guiding my heart with wisdom, and how to lay hold on folly till I might see what was good for the sons of men to do under heaven all the days of the allies. I made my works great, I built myself houses, implanted myself vineyards. I made myself gardens and ought to them planted all kinds of fruit trees in them. I made myself water pours from which to water, the groceries of the grove i acquired. Male and female 7th, and had 7th born in my house. Yes, I had greater possessions of herds and flocks than all who and ruthless before me. I also gathered for myself silver and gold, and special treasures of kings and provinces. I acquired male and female sing as the delights of the sons of men and musical instruments of all kinds. So I became great and excelled more than all who had before me in jerusalem. Also, my wisdom remained with me. Whatever my eyes desired, i did not keep from them. I did not withhold my heart from any pleasure for my heart, rejoiced in all my labor, and this was my reward from all my labor. Then I looked on all the works that my hands had done, and on the labor in which I had toiled, and indeed, all was vanity and grasping for the wind. There was no prophet under the sun. Okay, jonathan, can you share with us what is this? What can I do with, with our topic? Yes. Who saw him on the author of ecclesiastics, he likes to go all and when he does something. So for example, he would, he, i'm going to build houses and Gardens and make something, you know, to what you can do with architecture. And I'm going to do a full blown as much as possible because I want to experience life and all these things he does it, but then he's realizing all this is vanity. Life is not about that. And now he does the same thing here with pleasure, right? He says, I'm going to just experience pleasure to the maximum of the way I can and he does it. He plan follicle of fruit treaty, he eats the drinks, he, his servants, you know, he, we know he acquired a lot of wives and all these experiences. And then he realizes india and even that was vanity. So even though the pursuit of selfishness to the extreme in the sense that sense or selfish pursuit of pleasure did not bringing to the fulfillment that we talked about in the previous episode on, on, on the book of fun of solomon. So that's what's going on here. He's seeking pleasure and pleasure, of course is a big aspect of sexuality. The topic we're discussing is that a question that we are trying to look at now is, what, what, what value does the pleasure have in the context of sexuality? And how do we relate to it? What, what, what is what is wrong with, with, with pursuing pleasure, with only what is wrong with with, with people call it is M C. Crew. What, why, why is that? I would god frown upon that? Or should we, I mean there are theologians out there who say, yeah, you seek all the pleasure that you can. Is there a danger in that there is a danger in that because it is dangerous? Well that I think ok, so this bailer out, well I'll try my best if you pray i speak. So I think the danger here that solomon portrays is the fact that his experience is ultimately he's saying this is going to be the experience of every individual. And, and this is the crazy thing that solomon, as jonathan said, solomon goes all in with the things that he can experience and his all in is going to be, you know, a lot bigger than my. All right, so we think to ourselves for example, if I had, if I had just if I could just get one more car, if I could just get one more, whatever it is, a bigger house night solomon had the opportunity to buy a nicer house and then a nicer house and then a nicer house and then a nice house and then redefine isis, and then rebuild that house. And what did that lead you to solve? He said after I did this unlimited amount of funding, unlimited amount of wisdom in architecture and beauty. It led to nothing, I think. And then what about within the, the, the, the aspect of knowledge. While I was the wisest man that ever lived, i acquired knowledge and more knowledge and more knowledge, more knowledge than you can ever acquire. What did that accomplish? It accomplish nothing. And then he said, look, even with women, i had not just one woman, 2 women, 3 women. I had not just hundreds of women. I had thousands of them. And what did this accomplish? I mean this, you would think from, from a, from, from the perspective of a teenager come in at the puberty, like this is a dream come true, right? Like any woman that you want, all the, anytime you want it. I mean, this is like, this has to be the great, this has to be the greatest thing ever given arise. Yes. And then what did solomon say is like, look, even after that, nothing, this was nothing. And if you look at chapter 2, almost every single verse begins with I, I did this, I did that, I did this, and the point that solomon is making is every time we live for I foundational lee, the end is going to be, it was vanity, it didn't it didn't even accomplish what I thought it would accomplish and it didn't even give me the happiness that I thought it would actually give me. And so the danger is you're chasing something. And in the end it's going to lead you to nothing. Just just to go with that. Thank you. I was praying With it made me think of something that was said a couple episodes ago that you know, when god gives us parameters, it's not because he's just trying to rule our lives. But this is manual for. This is actually how you will accomplish happiness and how you can feel fulfilled. And what's interesting, i can fall a man's solomon's life. He was the king of israel and God had when the israelites asked for a king, he said ok, i'll permit this, but your king should not gather to themselves servants, and lands, and flocks, and herds and take wives. And if he gave parameters, okay, other kings do this, but you are the king of israel should not do this. And solomon goes and does exactly what you should not do as the king of in. And so it's interesting that you know, at the end of it, he's kind of vindicating what you have done is that, and he's like, you know, what I did, I did, I didn't do what god told me to do, and that was bad and did it because the extreme and then I found at the end of the day that it was, it was vanity's, both $700.00 rise and 3 under concubines. Vanity. Okay. Okay. You know, that's awesome. Israel kind of alluded to this in verse 3 here. It's 3 up to us, 3, then I searched in my heart how to gratify my flesh, right? That's the, that's the principal. He a principal, he's operating on now. Now if we talk about 9 in the context of sexuality, that is the guiding principle. In most cases, where sexuality is portrayed in society and in the world today. And so we can assume that solomon applied the same principle in his sexual experiences and with the thousands of life and whatever. And so he's saying that his vanity. But this should make us rethink what, what do I seek in, you know, if I mean, if a married, in my sexual encounter with my wife, what do I seek? Even if I'm not married, what do I look forward to what, what, what do I want out of the sexual experience? That is part of the Human experience. Is it, am I searching my heart so I can you know, to gratify my flesh? Or have I grasped the higher form of the section under which we already study a little bit and prove that because that what god has in store for us to selflessness. And so this is the guiding principle. And there are many of that now this, that are, you know, not biblical. No, I love this guiding principle. So when it comes to the sexual experience of the one solo solo sexuality, if you will, masturbation is what the technical term is. This does, this would, this would apply here, right? You're not gratifying the needs of the flesh. If this is the experience of to can, does this, does this apply the in can into it could ok and then then we also care about 3 and for him to get polygamy. When come back after the break, we're gonna look at the numbers of $12.00, and $3.00. And how does jonathan's principle from ecclesiastics chapter to apply in each of these scenarios? I'm just in kim, you're listening to in verse will be back after the break. In this been a blessing to you, do you have questions, comments, or feedback you'd like to lever? Find us on social media by searching in booth bible on Facebook, twitter, instagram, or youtube. While they're joining like us caught us thumbs up a handle again is in both bible know faces. Now back to the discussion. Ah. Yeah, welcome backwards, please. Yes is chapter 2 where jonathan has brought up the principle of chapter 2, verse 3, that solomon searched his art and how to gratify his own flesh year. And this is not a principle that we find him biblical sexuality. And we talked about was solo sexuality, do sexuality, and in with the trio quad growing, polygamy? Well, it's actually address, let's go backwards, polygamy. There are many biblical characters who engaged in polygamy. There are some weird versions where people do that to gratify the Flash. And we can say automatically, hey, this applies, that's bad. But are there polygamous situations where the, the one spouse is doing it not to gratify the flesh, to do it out of love in the family. And I did a da da da da da da da. Are those ok and the bible characters did it. So what's wrong with me doing it thing. Yeah. And in israel good. I couldn't tell from your face. Yeah. She might jump in. Well, wait for the 1st principal understand. It's just because a story isn't the bible does not mean that everything that person did is something we have to do in the stores in the bible are to teach us about what not to do. And so just because there are examples in the bible of polygamists relationships, that does not mean that the bible says polygons, relationships are okay. Okay. And just because god interacted with an individual or individuals who weren't polygamous relationships, that does not make that all right. Or he does not. Yeah, he does not having a 1000 women is not justification for me to have a 1000 women. Exactly. Ok. And so in the same, you know, we think of abraham dave and others. And so the other aspect that I want to bring in is also the cultural aspect, and this is not an excuse. This is just the reality of the culture in those days, like abraham and, and others. It was very, very normal to have multiple wives and concubines and, and just, you know, the servant women that are and it was not necessarily to gratify to flesh it was just part of building, you know, a tribe and, and having stability. And so it was part of how society functioned at that time in that context. And there are, I mean, to this day still part of the world where that is part of society is normal. And so sometimes individuals would even come out of that experience. And then become converted. OK, so in god has to deal with, with those nomics, you know what, what do you do them? You know, the divorce everybody what, what, what's the plan? So this just the 2 things I want to bring in there, just because it's in the bible doesn't mean you have to do it that way. And sometimes it has a cultural background rather than a selfish pursuit of pleasure background and sorry, hope you have it just to go 100 on the, on the abraham example, for instance, because no, that's a really hard one because he will apparently he was doing it to be respectful of his wife's, which wishes. Yes. And also he was trying to help god along with the promise that god had made there. And then you know the culture with permissive and all the friends. But it's interesting. And abraham story, you know, like you get to, you know, in genesis chapter 15, his like, ok, god, I'm kind of going, getting up in years and you said, well, I was going to have the, you try, but I got no kids. How about you take my servant as a proxy, you know and got his know. I said you right. It's from you that that, that this nation is going to come out. And then 3rd comes up with his genius idea. Ok if you, which means ok, we'll put you and hagar together. And what turns out that god know when I said you, you and sarah, i 111 this episode. So when I said you abraham, that means you and sarah, not you and hagar. So even it's, it's culturally acceptable like the way that even the way that god communicated with abram was like from your loins from you. He like, he obviously meant you and sarah, because of the way that he reacted even to when. Ok, well how about it smells like no, I didn't meet you and some other person. Yeah. You and sarah, when I said you, right so, so god has this assumption of, of the 2 are one. Right. And it's these 2 people in US and not a 3rd party coming in to the union. The bible principals transcend culture even when the culture permits and that happens, right? Right, right. But the vocal script must still okay. And what's, what's important along the same line of what she's saying is when you look at how god response to that situation, he company just abraham. Take now your son isaac, your only son. Right? He doesn't even acknowledge what has happened between him and hagar as something that's legitimate. And so, you know, I go back and forth because I understand what jonathan saying in terms of whether it is a result of passion or result of pragmatics. I, I think ultimately we can't understand the Human heart what it does boil down to, in whatever form you look at it, whether it's, you know, human passion or not. It does boil down to human wisdom or human, this versus non human. That's right. And when we talk about, you know, sexuality, you know, to being that number, god doesn't really look at it as you know, 2 is better than one, or 2 is better than 3. Ultimately boils down to, is this something that is selfish or something? Because 2 can still exist, but can be just as wrong as the one on 3. It can actually still be one. Right? And this is a crazy thing about this is a crazy thing about intimacy. You know, it's crazy because when you're, when you're experiencing intimacy with someone as, as physical as that intimacy is, there's also a mental component to it, right? You can be having the same exact action than you would in an intimate love relationship. And that same exact nation could be inactive hatred, right? We call it rate, right? It could also be an act of last, it could even be an act of adultery. Someone, 2 individuals can be having sexual intimacy, thinking about 2 other individuals. And so in, in each of these expressions, it's actually not an expression of love but as an expression of love for self. And so when the bible talks about intimacy, real intimacy, it's something that involves the whole entire being yes, the mind as well as the body and in the mind as well as a body. What is taking place is actually believe it or not, even though this kind of sounds funny is an act or a should be an act of self listening. And this doesn't exist always what, even within the context of marriage, right? How many times is like, are I, let's just do it because we got to get it over with, or I'm going to make you, you know, whatever, just so that we can go to sleep or whatever happens, right? How many times do we hear these kinds of story that this actually happens? This is not intimacy. This is ultimately, you know, 11, right? If the one, Yes. Well that's actually look at one what, what is so wrong with, with, with solo sexuality. You see in the medical literature there is a, a form to, to relieve stress and it is a healthy expression, sexuality. You find this in the literature all over and the church remains kind of quiet on it does not want to emphasize want, does not want to increase levels of guilt and shame. And just hey, let's just kind of Be pragmatic about it. And how can, how do these principles of scripture apply in this scenario? I mean, obviously you have the aspect of selfishness we see from scripture that the, the sexual encounter is something it is supposed to happen. Pin a man, the woman in a context of marriage. And with the focus of selflessness, focusing on the other, not unself. And you know, with masturbation, you have a focus on you and whatever you want. And it's, you're really stripping the gift of sexuality to holiness of it. Off it's holiness and of it's of it's of the, the beautiful asked with god has put to it. And you're robbing yourself of an experience that god wants you to have in the proper context, which is way deeper, way more beautiful and, and way more beneficial. So you, are you really, you're robbing yourself of an experience there and that's why god, god is not trying to Rob you of an experience. He's trying to prevent you from destroying that experience that you can have in the future. And in the right content, it's important for us to note to mention the fact that in, especially dealing with the topic of masturbation, this is something that is highly addictive. There's a lot of people that are addicted to this thing. And from that perspective, there should be compassion. The fact that people are yes, wrestling with these kind of addictions and temptations, i think foundation lead for people that are going through this kind of addiction. Sometimes it's hard for us to ever for it's hard for us to ever stop denying the fact that this is harmful to us. Right. And it's important for individuals who are going through these kind of challenges to understand that there's something fundamentally that affects us when we seek self pleasure. And that is that it will affect every other aspect of our relationship. It prevents us even when we have intimacy with a partner. It prevents us from being able to engage properly within that context. Why? Because we've set up ourselves to respond only to that which pleases us. And this is where it robs us of that beautiful sexual intimacy. And I think that it's important for us to understand that the longer we are addicted to self, whatever that is, whether it's, you know, sexual addiction, pornography or any other kind of addiction. It prevents us from having meaningful and beautiful relationships with the people that we ultimately love. So it actually hurts our ability to love someone out the way we want to love. This is such a, this is a very, very efficacious discussion. I think this is good for, for those. Those are where many who are watching online and we're single who are young adults and may be struggling. What to ask you and we will cover this in future episodes for right now, what is some practical counsel? You can grant people who are struggling with these things. Maybe they are in a married relationship, a marriage and but they have a one solo sexual experience. Or maybe they are a young adult, but they are, they cannot get out of this. This is, and this is the reality whether you're a male or female living today with the prevalence of sexual material on the Internet and whatnot, whatever, whatever, what is going on? What are some counsel we can practically give to help people with their, with their overcoming and helping and formally from the church. Now, I think I'll say for, you know, since it's like way for any other addiction. Firstly, looking the dixon in the eye and recognizing it what it is in addiction. So I think you know, whether it's alcohol alcoholism, you know, like pornography it said, look, whatever addictions they are like one of the 1st steps is acknowledging that I am addicted. You know, and I think that's, that's really challenging, you know, with, with the solo sex situation because firstly, you know, there's the prevalence of what society says in the media and everything around is saying it's okay, it's okay, it's okay. And sometimes the church is silent on it even, and then on top of it, even if there is a recognition that this is a problem, it is such a private, less secretive, but depending on the context experience. So even seeking accountability can be challenging in that situation. Which for some like alcoholism, you have a partner who you talk to her about it. But when, when say you're a single person and you're struggling with us, like, who do you talk to about something that's so personal, you know? So that adds another layer of, you know, talent, and so that I think as, as communities of faith, i think we need to start acknowledging that people are struggling with these kinds of things and start creating environments that will allow not in a perverse kind of way but allow a level of vulnerability, yes, that will create the safety for people to begin to overcome the refining that in social sciences, telling us that the opposite of addiction is not isolate ation. We often think if you're addicted to something, stay away from it. If you're isolated by yourself away from a long enough, you will have the victory over it. We're finding that isolation often incubate the addiction even more. But integration is the opposite to addiction, and many social sciences are saying, hey, go to church, whether you believe the things or whatever, just find a community where you integrate and that kind of Social re and we inforcement helps you to overcome some of this behavior. You know, I think of david king david who had who found to sexual sin and adultery in San 51, you know, well known verse. He, he confesses, he faces the reality of his sexual sin and ask god to do something. We have to realize that god wants us to have freedom. God is not hating you. He wants to help you to deal with that thing and he's going to give you me. If you trust him, david prayed, you know, create him. You clean hard and give me a right spirit. Give me a purity, give me renewed experience and God is more than willing to do it. It's a process, but he can help overcome. Help us overcome this. Well, we want to really encourage you to go to a inverse bible dot orgy and download the bible study or continue the conversation on social media. This is a huge topic and we need to be talking about it and find the support that we need. Thanks. So much for joining us. We'll see you next week here on inverse as we continue talking about the topic of biblical sexuality. God bless you guys. You have been listening to in verse a bible based conversation telling Jonathan was the fashion brackson who dachelle and justin kim. The invoice is brought to you by the whole chatham television that changes life morning by episode visit invoice, hope to Find us on social media invoice. 5 until next time. This is invoice.


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