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Logo of Michigan Conference Campmeeting 2021: How Much More?

02 Are Our Efforts to Grow the Church Actually Shrinking the Church?

Wes McDonald

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  • June 22, 2021
    2:15 PM
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In you are about to enjoy a presentation recorded at the 2021 michigan conference camp meeting held at cedar lake michigan. We pray that the Lord will bless you as you listen father. Thank you that work here. We will bring more. I asked that she'll just speak to me, give me the right words to speak in just the right way and a clear mind with pray that will all be edified and that I can share in or that can be learn myself. That the topic will be clear and will be, will be changed by this Name. Now the Canada pile for the whole series. Israelite 40 years to reach canaan labs and why is it taking us now? 177 years this year. That $177.00 or whatever it is, it's more than $175.00. It did the math, but I forgot what it was. So our efforts to grow church, actually shrinking church. That's kind of what we're looking at. Lessons from the church. You know, from earlier today the role of admin ministers and the role of church members has changed over the years. Some of you know, when you join a church or maybe you're new to a church, you don't know much about the history. You'll think it's always been this one. And for many, many, many years, all denominations are included have had one basic pattern for ministry, pastors take care of churches, right? That's the norm. But that's not the biblical way. And it hasn't been good for the growth of the church. You know, if we say it's adventist and kind of it's to our shame. If you think about this, bear with me. We claim that we are supposed to and are, you know, doing everything we can to enlighten the world. The entire world, especially. We can't was rangel messages, but we want to be real sure. The pastors preached us every week, which are the board meeting the school board. They help us of our squabbles, they deal with our gosh, you got the picture. So we're not accomplishing the mission. Do I here? And I man. Yeah. So we're going to talk about yesterday we went through the broad picture, a broad scope to where to where we understand what we should be doing and that we're not doing it and some things. But I'm going to show you a little bit of the journey that it took from when we were doing things closer to. Right. So where we are today, and then I'm going to show you in on grass what the suspect has been and it's going to blow me away when I liked it. So here we go. First of all, I want to talk to you about the early pioneers. Something about their mindset, their hardships, their 3rd difficulty, what they went through and what this message meant to them and what it meant to them to get it out in class and so forth. So we'll talk a little bit 1st about jane chanel and wife and family. You know, our early pioneers, they were married or there had kids, they were liked anybody else. They weren't all, you know, bachelors or stuff like that. And this is something which james white said when he addressed the speaking to the general conference session about a creek and it was printed an advent 7 or 7. Carol june 9, 1859 and he said we have no settled pastors over our churches. But our ministers are all a missionary, as were the early ministers of jesus christ. Consequently, they are most of their time deprived of the blessings of home for christ's sake and for the Salvation of their fellow men, they sacrifice the society of their ones at home. They didn't see their family very much. The kids back, james now on why for a 5 year period had to place their children in the care of somebody else because the both of them had to travel all the time. They had kid. So they sacrificed the society of their ones at home, go for them to a coal selfish world and where out their lives and preaching unpopular bible true is speaking straight and truthful. God bless them, but they must be sustain. You see if this point the church was not yet really truly a nominate. It didn't have legal standing like we think of it now, you know, a corporate standing. They really didn't have a good way of sending time taking in times and offerings and then sending it out where it needed to go. These folks were a lot like the apostle paul and the apostle paul didn't get a paycheck from jerusalem. Well okay, this is the way they did, but they did it because they couldn't not do it. They couldn't not do it. God bless them, but they must be sustained. And God has made it the duty of the church to support them as they go on their mission of love. While a great work is before the church, the time that remains in which to accomplish it must be short. The last events of prophecy are being fulfilled. Last warnings for the church are being given. Our ministers must be regarded as very economical in their expenses and their magic to expand and abundant in our labors. In other words, they were supposed to do a lot of work for method. I mean that reading between the lines, it's kind of like that kind of not entirely that straight, but you got the most of them preached from 2 to 300 this courses year. Think about $2.00 to $300.00. This course is a year and it is a painful fact that they often suffer hardships care and deprivation for want of means. Now that was written in 1859. Let's see what happened in sequence. After that, in james allen's life, 1860 their youngest son herbert, died at age 3 from eric, eric surplus henry, which ellen white call her sweet singer. That age 16 from the mono. James white had a stroke in 18. 65 at the age of 44, where to put the both of them out of commission for 15 months, following james's stroke. Maybe one of them very in trouble for 15 months and they were at some help retreat. And they were and he wasn't really getting better. He knew that a lot of them for some of the this may have been there now for testimonies for the church by him on page 570. This was ellen whites response after 15 start and what she decided she and james had to do now are beginning to get the idea that they were these folks were dedicated to the extreme dancing. Having become fully satisfied that my husband would not recover from his protracted illness while remaining inactive, and that the time had fully come for me to go forth and bear my testimony to the people. I decided. Contrary to the judgment and advice of the church at battle creek, which ways were members of that. At that time, to venture a tour in Northern michigan with my husband as an innocent streamline fable condition and the severest cold winter. It required no small courage of moral more, no small degree of moral courage and faith in god to bring my mind to the decision to risk so much. Especially as I stood alone with the implants of the church, including those at the head of the work at battle creek against me. She was of a mind, do we understand? But I knew that I had a work to do. And it seemed to me that satan was determined to keep me from. I had waited long for our captive to be turned and feared that precious souls would be lost. If I remain longer from the work to remain longer from the fields seem to be worse than death, and should we move out? We could but perish. So on the night of December 18, 66, we left battle creek in a snow storm, right? ottawa county michigan, now mind you, they didn't get snow tires on the car and just have a tough time didn't their 90 days. It could have taken them perhaps for 5 days with a 4 strong wagon. She doesn't say exactly how they traveled, but this would have been typical and it's phrased cold and it's snowing. And james has been just feeble. But they went My husband stood along where journey of 90 mile, much better quite as well when we reached our old home and brother route as when we left battle creek. Wow. Have any of you ever in your life in the church today, seen anybody that paid it like that? Now let's see what your eyes smith had to say. Now that was written and 18 when we say 18. 66 right, left on women. 1866 and they checked, checked out. Now your eyes, smith, size of the times. Volume was number 41. I give you all of these detail so you know, I didn't just skip this out of anyway. This was I had to extract this stuff out of the archives from pdf that you could post the whole pdf from the archives or all this. He says this is exceedingly simple. A body of believers talking about the formation of new churches. What the labor that they would do and then move on. It says that this is exceedingly simple. A body of believers associate together, taking the name of 7th day adventists and attaching their names to a covenant simply to keep the commandments of god. And the paper of jesus, the bible is there on the crate. A clerk has chosen to keep the records of the church and an elder elected by a vote of the churches obtain. So look after spiritual, enter the churches large. It's temporal affairs are assigned to one or more they can chosen by vote of the church. For this purpose, none of the churches have pastors established with them. They maintain their worship without the aid of a creature only as 1 may occasionally visiting them. Leaving the minister spray to devote almost their whole time to carrying these views to those who have never heard them. And they did that only to go out and work with almost nothing to work. Work themselves to the bone. Maybe have strokes, whatever ground the middle of a snow storm for 4 days when you're, when you're feeling so big. You got the idea Where fat, sassy and lazy. And then, and then only a few years after that was $1874.00. And then james white died august 6th, $188012.00 days after his 60th birthday rating thrill and white's riding. She was convinced that if he had slowed down a bit, he would have lived much longer. You know, I had come, I kind of have Oh cd and I fall apart several times because I didn't know when to stop. I remember one year I had to job changes 3 position changes. I bought a house and remodeled that while we moved in and ran for the state legislature all at the same time. And I just thought that was what I was supposed to do. I didn't know that's what it is did. And then after i've thankfully lost the election. I totally fell apart and I was bad. I ended up in the hospital and I was so bad. I was calling my own i was such a bad m. C. D. I called my own doctor at home to him in the morning, telling him when I wanted my test wrong. And he still put up with me after all So it's obvious, but james now and what merely primaries were little like that but not as much as they were more christian than I was. And they had a better cause. But there are people out there who are that way for all the wrong reasons. And there are very few out there for all the right reasons. That there's hardly anyone out there. Even though they're not for the right reasons. They're not just not there. And then after that, after all, that in 1914, this was about a year, a year and some months before him and white died. What was her response to that kind of lifestyle? And watching all those early workers work like that. Some of them work themselves to early grade. What did she say? Our this is March 5th. And I think 14 reviews on here on our ministers are not to spend their time laboring for those who have already accepted the truth. With christ love burning in their hearts, they are going to go forth the whims interest of the savior beside all waters. They are to show the state of true place after places to be visited, the church, after churches to be raised up those who take their stamp or the truth or to be organized into churches. And then the minister is to pass on to other equally important fields. This is what it means and this is what it takes to take the 3 angels messages to every place on this earth. And it is our duty, our god given duty as some damage to do that god has given us the method. And when we use his method, we get the help of his spirit. Because we can't, it's impossible for us to do this. We cannot do this job. It's physically, mentally, emotionally, financially impossible for me to do it. But if we will do what we can doing it the way he says, we get all the abundant, overwhelming power, the holy spirit that makes it happen. That makes it go forward. That makes it just go ballistic. Now, you know, for years and years and years, you know, here, well, we're developing this plan this year. You've heard this before. Next year, all we're trying to New plan this year. It's going to work. Oh yes, it's not really true that it, it goes on and on and on. What it is to use a musical charm. It's variations on a theme. But it's the wrong song is for August. Oh, you know, How can you ask? God bless you. When you know that you've got the door, he said, That's called what we call the presumption. That's reasonable work right now. Many people have done this, ignorantly, and they have done the best I can and God has honored that and he is blessed. Because they were, they were sincere, there's many, a minister, many, a light person, but then they've been ignorant that they just didn't know any better. They cannot be darned as being. They cannot be down, you know, cannot be cast away or are treated absurdly simply because they were ignorant. They haven't been wilfully disobeyed. And God, you know, looks over our ignorance bible. But now he calls all day. So 2 weeks ago you have an excuse that you don't have one. Now That's my job. My job is to forgive me anyway. Now what I want to do is I want to take you for a little journey. And based upon the study that have some evidence from people that I've connected with my father in law as a big help with this. And some other things which you will be able to identify, identify yourself will take a little journey from the days of the latter days ago. And why? When the, when, even in her days while she was preaching, there we're starting to have ministers are starting to stay too long with a church. You know, you get more, you like to converge. But you forget, you need to go like some are, you know, or whatever. And of course the people in the news, they just love this person that brought to jesus. But they love him so much that they don't love the neighbor who's never heard it. And and, and then whatever the case from that time as it progressively went downward and I will show you what I believe are steps along the way and how to play based upon study based upon observations in my lifetime and stuff from like my father in law who started in the ministry in 1939. Before that he was a radio actor. Didn't know what a radio actor is. It's a soap opera on the radio and that have live, what We're still good, I think. Ok. So number one, the ministers began to spend too much time where the churches from a banjo, or many of my quotations, are not found in the books that were reprinted. A lot of them were dug out of the archives or, you know, manuscript release please touch if the ministers will get out of the way. If they would go forth and to move, the members would be obliged to bear responsibilities and their capabilities would increase by you Want to tell you just a quick story in our church plan. Even when I'm there, I don't preach every week, I won't do it. My number but there's 2 younger men and we take 3, we even did this on a campaign before. You know, it was like the 3 musketeers, and I wouldn't, you know, I can preach a whole campaign. That's no problem. I've done it and God bless me and I was very but I'm not going to do it when there's 2 other guys with me. So 123123123. These guys never went to school to be preachers. These guys never study complex, or that's a term for learning how to preach any of those things. One fell in everyone's college at all, but the good men are younger than I am. And so I to the campaigns from the time I was a child church was everything. And I enjoyed going to campaign. I haven't attended more than one campaign bye or does better more. Any of you know, who said more war, there was no evangelist liking. Nobody was liking, remember, watching him on a campaign one night. And he was making a call, and the lights were down low and we were singing 1st after verse after verse. Diversities calls on, you know, he left the podium, went out into the audience, got down kinda next to him on his knees and pleaded with Amanda. There was heart. He wasn't standing up here as he went down there. I can tell you all kinds of stories. I learned from my father in law who worked with him 3 times when I either want to go to visit somebody, they were going to get there at 11. They thought he'd be asleep. My father was ordered to be asleep, then wake up. Anyway, where are we going? Oh yes, the 3. So I listen to the best band, a man, all these, all these good names, dentmore and the who would there more and then sooner, benson or son? And so one night i'm listening and one of the guys the topic to preach the best evangelism sermon on that topic i have ever learned. Listen to in my life from any living speaker On a different night. The other guy did the same thing. The best campaign sermon i'd heard in my life from any living speaker and, and the one fellow people really like service, they really like him better than me. But anyway, retrospectively and that's a good retrospectively later I realized that if I had chosen because I have the experience to preach that campaign by myself, I would have stolen from the holy spirit, the opportunity to develop talents in these young men That the minister would get out of the way the people would be obliged to bear responsibility and counsel improve. We got away from them. Tell us when we have right now, why should I give you a challenge? If you're not going to be able to use a L Y general conference bulletin. This was at a general conference session. And this is reminded no one. This was, this may have been when she was an australia. My heart has been filled with sadness. As I've looked over the field and seen the baron places, what does this mean to are standing as representatives of jesus christ who feels the burden for the souls who cannot receive the truth till it is brought to them? Our ministers are hovering over the churches as though the angels mercy was not making efforts to save soul. God holds these ministers responsible for the souls of those who are in darkness. Ouch. The ministers, the ministers are hovering over the churches will. Okay. Women, god help. Okay, he does not call you to go into fields that need no physician, establish, are churches where the understanding that they may not expect the minister to wait on upon them and to be continually feeding them. They have the truth. They know what the truth is. They should have written themselves, they should strike down deeply that they may reach higher and higher. They must be rooted and grounded in the fight. You know, when you have a modern prophet in your church, you're going to get chewed on from time to time. And we needed that number to the 6 steps that I kinda identified myself. Some people probably come up with 10 or 12, but I came up with the practice of assigning ministers to labor in the churches began as early as 18 ninety's. She was not happy for instructions against doing that were follow from the review and herald 895 june, june 11th the cities in America in this country. Now she was in Australia at this time. So she's talking about the cities in America. And in this country, meaning and as him and him now straight, you are not being worked as I should be. And yet we are admonished to be labors together with god instead of this many churches collectively and individually have been so far removed from god. So separated from his spirit that they have left soul to perish all around them. While they have been calling for workers to labor in the church that goes on today. This labor has been granted them and the em penitent and the shin i have been robbed of the messages which the Lord would have given to them. We know that we have you know what it is. And then galatians, reminder a little love, love and the whole love. Once you start it, you start assigning ministers to some churches. They won't be long and you have to do it with all Like you give one kid a piece of candy. You don't have to give the other 2 So this is kind of what took place. So step number 3, ministers were assigned to all churches. It started, it gradually started. But it was going on, you know, in the years after the century change 900 up to about the 33rd developing slowly developing f m wilcox who was editor for the review on harold in the June for issue of $925.00. Unfortunately, Unfortunately there is a growing tenants in the denomination today towards settle, pastor and the time of too many of our preachers instead of being occupied with carrying the message in a new field, has to be taken up in settling church, difficulties and in labor for men and women who should be towers of strength instead of subjects for labor. We cannot feel that this is in god's order. I was almost 100 years ago, also from ga robertson that missing market. These aren't names that you'll necessarily know, but this is an article by them in review on here on November 11th 1926. Hey, jake says there's a growing tendency to tie ministers, a subtle pastors over churches, every religious reform movement. This has been one of the 1st steps leading to stagnation and decadence. And talking about churches that are fall that aren't, aren't half what they need to be. You will know exactly what I'm talking about. Somebody has a church with 200 members. Typical attendance is $100.00 warm bodies of which half of them are non baptized kids and the rest are visitors. Right? Or you have a tooth in my conference. Where would church maybe a couple large churches to 3000. But if you have more than a few 100 on the South, but that's pretty good. Yet as many as 5 or 600 regularly on. So after that, be a big crowd. And nobody has a clue where they are going. We're going into a district now visited every last. So on the conference book, some people have had visits in years. People that you think you'd never be able to contact this was before. You could just go and Google everybody. I've had them Now you can do it And you don't reclaim everybody. But alicia showed god to try to care. And the trouble is, is it's left up to the ministers to do all that. It takes them 2 or 3 years just to figure out what's going on with the rest of your boat. Right. But they move in. They don't know the way of the land. Yeah. But if the church members were responsible for themselves, the church elder were responsible for the church. A lot less of this was go on because when you, when know so yourself, you're going to look after him and you're not going to forget all about him until 10 years later. All we're, we're going To show you how it works better. Whether you have a sub minister or not, you need to get acquainted with all these people that, that man or woman baptizes. You need to be friend them and you need to point yourself as their guardian. Then teach them to do that with others that they win. Very important. So anyway, moving god From j L. Mcelhanney. Now that is church name that some of you may recognize. This is the ministry magazine that's the the magnet goes up from January 1931. Now we're coming up on 1932, that's an important year and I wanna explain, shall we go on year after year? simply pastoring our churches and engaging in Spanish, monic, missionary and every, every october when administered, things go to war. Going to hear that and expect to see this work finished. They insist a cry from our churches for pastoral help. And one of the chief problems faced by conference administrators today is that of providing settled pastors for our churches. Every executive committee meeting, you know that that can be a concern. Yeah, this is quite contrary to the plain instruction which has come to us from the spirit of prophecy. But can you say that as we follow that language up to where he's taught, saying this a 931. Can you see that the idea of settled pastors was entrenched? There was entrenched. Now we're going to talk a little bit about 930 to 900. 32 is a very important year in Edmonton. Up to 932. There was no official church manual. Now there was a book by, I think it was love world that was used as a manual, but it really was voted in church manual like we think of it today and they used it. But then finally they, you know, came together corporate lou council for a manual written and, and that particular manual was the 1st time that you had from, from that type of source on the the, the, the road representatives of the world church where you had the description of the minister's duties and it's what you see today. Those the 1st time that you have a church manual sanctioning subtle. Pastor We're, you know, we really stand and talk about one. Now I want to show you what happens though. Here in a moment. And then then I'll tell you about hubert to anderson. Now that's not a big name and address. That's my father in law. Although he was well known in his day, he was a great, great proponent of justification by faith. That was like his favorite topic. He did seminar to on that. He worked in conferences everywhere. My wife has actually live in 22 states. And the majority of that was before we ever got married and we've been married, 47 years. And, and we've, we've all moved about 13. We live in your state. So most, all of that was the greatest percentage was while she was a pastor daughter, and not only did she live in 22 states, sometimes she lived in as many as 2 or 3 places in one state. Or more than one time in a state is a good callback there. Or they in one place, they live in 3 houses in one city. Because when you're doing your move, sometimes you can't find any place to rent, but something that's kind of not so good. He was an old fashioned pastor when he got a call, a concert from the Lord and they went others and talking about him, they called him the gypsy fasting blood. And he was the one that work report is that m R and all these other things. And he knew how to do evangelism, he taught me amber. And so anyway, That's why he was he taught me all those important and I learned so much from this. But when he started ministry, he was a radio actor 1st and he became converted to the 7th day adventist. Then he went to the minister of the ministry, 1939. Now when he went into the ministry in those days, you had the whole vandalism campaign your 1st year and get at least one baptism or you were out of the ministry period. Forget it. You just last program that you have the call. But I had a friend in college and I went to southern, you know, in the early 70. Okay. I, when I had a friend from college was a pastor ran into many years later he had been in the ministry 20 years and had never in his life had one campaign that he never preached. Not want to 20 years. Conference love him. Because the church has loved him and he could stay in the district a long time. They didn't have to move in much I'll be honest with you, because stay for years and place And now the name of the game is you don't want to be somebody that has to be moved very often. Make sure the church puts up with the law because it's get to be moving a lot. It's kind of expensive. This is reality and a lot of places god's churches are slowly changing. The kind of waking up a little bit. But now we have gone from good to very bad. And so I learned all of this put together. I'm glad that I married the woman. I married for many reasons. One of them, of course happens to be your father. But no, I have a wonderful one. She's put up with me for almost 50 years. So anyway, step number 4. And this goes back to like the 70s or eighties that I know of some churches began to request that pastoral candidates being considered possess specific traits that they were good for their chart. You know, We want a pastor that has these You know, and the current presence aren't likely to say mister president, we want somebody who will go to the town over the next town and start church. And we want to help him do that. They're not going to hear that too often. Can you see how that is one more step down into absolute past all dependence. They can you see them, then you see how we went for, you know, kind of a little bad, been worse to really, truly kind of bad, bad, too ridiculous. Got to check what country or exactly what I won't ask you for how many of you have ever done that I'm. I'm going to be nice And then it got worse than that. Got worse than ministers. Began to be interviewed by prospective churches a lot out. 2 or 3 people in low energy knew then they'd vote on, you know, My father in law one time they wanted to interview him. He was mad enough to spit bullet. They just, they thought that was ridiculous. This was later in his ministry. And he pastored big churches better picture that Got that bad cut that thing. Yeah. Oh yeah. Yes, thank you. Yeah. That in case, in case the type them catch that gentleman up here correctly stated that, that standard operating procedure. Now Now if a church were to say, you know, Mr. President or help us because we'd like to have somebody who's, who's been successful in planting churches in baptist area because everyone around baptist and you know, we have a few folks that we know of the done that, but maybe they're not open to a call, but we'd like somebody that can tackle this tough area or somebody they tend to moodle, mary, or somebody or catholic, or at least that would have some kind of semblance of brain activity. What the conference should hear from you is this, you know, miss Scott from president ware messed out, but we know it and we need to just get our own act together. Okay. And we don't want you to waste money taking somebody's got a master's in the entity degree and spend all of that education on us. We already know the truth. We're just asked them stupid. That's all. But why don't you take the money our time and use it to pay that man to go over this town over here and start a new church and we'll even send an extra offerings of time just to make it happen. Guy might have a heart attack. He might, he may may wonder if he's having a dream, but wouldn't that be the christ like response something, something like that and better yet, since that turn over, there isn't a 100 miles where it's only 60 or 70. Some of our members live within 10 or 20 miles and we're just going to help them to understand that maybe they want to help in saying it isn't this more deciding than sit there squabble where they are, but I want the passer strike you out. Yeah, I like that a man. I heard you can say those lousy one Now it gets worse. It gets worse. And I'm a props and terminals if some, some of them might not necessarily be mayor with. But can you see that atlantis churches are beginning to use the conference as an employment agency Is that that's where the corporate world works for hire another agency to do the head hunter thing to take care of the company. I just said some hard words which approved me wrong personally wrong. You can't do it. So this is where we're going. Now, this is actually happening in some area. We have a professional ministry which is trending in the direction of congregational isn't is developing in some areas. Are there any of you know, the term congregational church hires at home? That's the next natural stephan. It's kind of almost getting that way kind of non poorly we are denominational, fully aware that however, I have a friend a younger man than where when he became a pastor, He was hired by the local church as the associate pastor and they paid his salary. But he was full conference pastor, but that conference, but at his salary through the conference. But basically they hired And so that is a modified type of congregation listen as I see as a wonderful man, don't get me wrong up wrong. He later became the chap chaplin for one of the state senate 1st state house represented in a state out west. Very good man. It could be that the Lord got him in the ministry by hook or by crook. But the method of how he got in wasn't god's chosen method. God just worked with us in our mess up condition. So we cannot follow the pastors because they work and I messed up the situation that they have no choice to work with. We cannot fault each other. We cannot. Well members, for their misbehavior their centers, ok, they're squabbling. They're like you and made their normal that there's are messed up there. Center. We've been attacked by the devil. And we need to rely upon jesus righteousness to cover. But now that we are knowing better, what is expected of us, god expects us to reach forward with this el and his blessings and his blood and empowers to do it the right way, where he can pour forth manifold. Bless. Now let's get back to the year 30 to 932, up until 932 we had officially sanctioned. Thank but I'm going to show you what happened in North America was broke right up from the year 18. 63. When we officially became a nation until you're 932 and that I'm using all my north America. Okay. Because once you start getting into other nations, you can't compare methods administer very easily. I wanted to use something which would be stable, which would have a state stable dataset if you know what I'm talking about. And then comparing what happened from my 232 to 2017, which was the records i had available to me when I pulled this together. So you will see that I got things thanks from the advent of statistical reports from 2018, 2017 data. And from the general conference statistics from odd years of 186321900. Why did I choose 1900? Because I could separate out the north American division by itself from 1900100 until now because you know, you have to separate it there because after 1900 we started sending missionary. So I had to separate it. But before 1900, the only membership of any count was in the United States. So that's why that's up there. So I want you to understand my methodology. So understand that, you know, this is all how you have to do some demographic study. You know, I had taken some variables here and I had to wait out variables that did not apply. So this is how this, this information was tabulated. So now, during the 1st 69 years of the official adventist church from when we officially became a denomination until 1930 to the north America, the number of churches grew by 18.3 times in 18. 63, we had a 125 churches in 1932, we had 228585. So in other words, that's more than 18 times a multiple times in grow. Ok. It's 69 years. Well, the next period from 8932 to 2017 is more years right. It was 85 years in the next 85 years. The number of churches in North America grew by 2.4 times 2.4 in more years. With more resources and more time 2.4 times. Ouch. Out though like that. Well, what happened with the membership? Ok. When we look at the membership in North America, the number of members night in 1863. There was about 3500 approximately. Okay. And then in 1932, there was 135008 137 more than 30000. That's a growth of $38.00 times. Almost 40 times growth rate. In 69 years. If we had a break, it was, it would have gone off off the chart. But it did that Well, even with this it just wasn't as openly defiant. So I should use those terms because that that doesn't. But anyway, we got worse in our obedience. After that, but now let's look what happened during the next 85 years. You already know where this is going, going In the next 85 years instead of 38.8 times from 1930 to 2017. It grew by 9.2 times. They went from 83583721 1000000, 249000 summers. If you see a dramatic difference in the growth rates from then until now. And yet, between then until now, from 32 until now we've tried every program there is to try to win more, sol annually. Every conference there's there's a new plan, but there's not the right plan. God doesn't have 150000 plans. He has worn plan, he's given it to ask us to Dan, and I want to show you the phone in the system and then I want to show you something Kind of striking now, or maybe you can see this graph. I don't know if you can. And I'm not going to tell you which cause I get a screenshot on that. So it's kind of small. But the The top to bottom rows represent 10 years from 2000 to 2000 and night cream. This is kind of the kind of things you can pull up on admin statistics dot org. And I won't tell you what conference this is. You know, it's not your conference here is not the michigan conference. It's another com. But ob, what you have here is across the top, there's more data up across the top, but I left that out. Partly because it would reveal the conference name if I went up to far too low. But I wanted to make the important part, baker. And then a car going across by death rate x x session rate, accession rate means the number of baptisms and professions of faith. Ok. And how many people were dropping memberships like that? Look here across the bottom to the number of ordained ministers in the number of life. And if you look at the numbers the 1st year, you have $47.00. That's 47. Next one is $35.00 and that's $42.00. Then you have a total of $48.00, then you have a total of 50. Then you have a total of $48.00, but the next one you end up with $6061.00. That's a big jump from 40 to 50. 61. You see that and some of hopefully you'll be able to see where I'm talking about. But if you look at the next session, right? During the years when there's fewer ministers, you have 3.3 percent, 2.11 percent, 2.77 percent, 2.12 percent. 1.9 to 1.77 percent the next year after you have this big increase, the number of ministers, the accession rate plummets. You end up with 1.2 percent, 1.8 percent. So for, likewise for growth rate, you end up with growth rates for about $16789.00 for there. Down to like point 68. When you have and there was like a rise number of churches, the number of churches across those 10 years were very much the same. There really wasn't going to church plans when you have a specific set number of churches and you increased your increase the number of ministers by any substantial amount the growth rate will drop and it will stay down and it may not ever recover unless you just lose all your minister and then the people start to do more for themselves and the growth rate goes up. This is not an isolated instance. This is not an isolated thing on it on a different night on different choosing a different afternoon. I'll show you what happened when I went to mongolia and the stats are sold there. I went over there with a medical and dental outreach and then later to give this particular seminar. But before I went over, even the 1st time I looked at the statistics, i always look at the statistics. When I do, I can tell a lot about what to expect, what's going on. So I saw this one year where they had a 50 percent rise from the number of ministers. The next year they had a 50 percent decrease in their growth rate. So I talked to the secretary general secretary about. I says, what about this? He says, yes, is more ministers about from church. That's what That's what he said. So. So you know, we talked about the change in the church members role, how it was changed over the years from the days of l. Y. And about the ministers. We talked mostly about the ministers, but as for ministers, role change, part of it is because of the church members demand as this takes place, that as the ministers take on more, the members are not stupid. They just do learn. If you got somebody pay to do your work or you got a girl. And so really what we have is an overworked ministry, extremely overwork ministry, but they're not overworked with the same kind of work that ellen and james were getting the stroke at 644 years, all over working from wonderful, beautiful, lovely church members who don't know that there are frustrating their ministers. You really want to win souls on their stock. This is hell. The roles have changed But there's great joy that comes when they'll be with a church member for the ministers, for the angels. However, are god the father god, the son of christ himself. Because we, as we begin to take on god's role as his given to us in scripture. Right. And why we ourselves will develop talent. We didn't know we have because we haven't had of until god gives him that he's not going. Can we need One more quick school In a church plant that way that we work in Pennsylvania. I was a nurse, a better salary pastor too, but I was a misfit. I just wanted to plant churches evangelize and there was no budget brader. But anyway, we had 5 adventist and 2 who had been baptized at robbie and it was my wife and I, robbie and his wife. They weren't baptized yet. And research member, one of them had been taken in one of the churches, i was So we got this church, we did our church, we prayed, we got didn't have a building. But one of the guys knew, oh, I'm getting resist and I'm going to have told the story later. Time to live. I didn't mean to hold you in suspense, but I really matter. Okay, I'll watch for a couple of minutes. Anyway, I will tell you the whole story, but I will tell you this, robbie: he was a prison guard. He didn't read very well and he was italian. The town was italian and polish combination. And he was catholic. Remember that he's italian catholic as so he becomes a member and you know, I let the others preach the others wanted robert prince. I want to sure about robert. I should've been with his. Okay. Anyway. So he gets up. It's his 1st sermon coming. He's nervous, he called my phone so many times when it says this, okay, this. Okay, so they kept on about growing. They just run my phone off the hook. She's making sure things, all right, and he's planned, he's got it all written down what he's going to say. And so it comes to his 1st sermon and he walks up to the pulpit just like a pastor. Any invited all of his catholic relatives and all over again or a catholic, but their boy was preaching. They're going to hear him. His sermon was 567 minutes or 10 or so there was verses. It comes down. How to do it. Ok. Rob. So he preached again and again, one day at potluck wherever, lutheran lady, sitting right across from my wife the potluck. Earlier that day, robin preach as it comes down from the pope. And I'm waiting at the door for him. I wish I gotta tell you, I did something I will, I don't know if I did right or not. He said, I got to a certain point here and I felt like I should say this said okay, it says, you know, rob, sometimes the holy spirit works that way. And at the potluck lutheran lady, she said, when, when robbie said this was a rip, it was just for me They had to understand that robbie and is in one day talking about the scribe. Him or you know, the ferris's very mind is never read the bible much for it is a tell you they were talking about their season, the salutes. So god campaign. And I'm glad you change banner doesn't read well who calls the sadducees duties? Can use him and have the holy spirit change his message on the fly? Who might argue, can you see that any of you can be used in the past, but if you're willing and a god and so will don't say I can't when a minister asked you to do something, don't say I can't say by the Grace of god. I give it my best shot And that god can use you to preach the best vandalism serving on a specific topic. But anyway, I never heard from anyone speaker. They can use you to touch the hearts of people and change your message on the fly, even though you say words funny. I think by that time had warned that there was a sad to say, but can you see this Now, since you can see it, you have no excuse For bothering me so much. You're blessed. Blessed lord bifocal falling. You follow your instructions and hasten the return of jesus jesus. Nay. My solution. More of these presentations, you may visit the audio archives at M. I S T A dot org slash audio 2021 or search for michigan conference camp meeting wherever you get your podcast.

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