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Ivan's Children

Clifford Goldstein

Presenter

Clifford Goldstein

Editor of the Adult Sabbath School Ministries Quarterly

Conference

Recorded

  • December 30, 2010
    10:30 AM
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him him for this message was presented I think he will I see two thousand ten no turning back on Baltimore Maryland for other resources like this visit us online GUI see whether or at all how many of you read they are Dostoyevsky 's novel writers artists all the Russian novels and his Russians write any short books I read it okay I did what you write is that curiosity it read well e.g. Nelson this book with a lot of themes about God and the meaning of life and death is questions that I guess everybody has and there's one scene in this novel which basically it's two guys in a restaurant talking and Dostoevsky 's the only writer I know can go on for two hundred pages having two guys talking and pull it off and hold humans for all and their two brothers were Muslims a monk and the other was kind of associate lists skeptic and atheist and having a discussion about the existence of God and does God exist and of course the monkeys arguing for the existence of God the atheist is in our socialist is arguing against it in a one the socialist Ivan Carmen 's office his name he tells a story whether it's true or not I don't know what doesn't really matters liaison there's enough horrific stop out there anyway in Colorado I serve and serve boy who lived on some Russian landowners state and the boy threw a rock in ensuring the Paul of his the of the estate owners favorite dog and the state owner had a child taken out at everybody out there in front of his mother at the child stripped naked and then told the child to run and is the boy ran and the job he set the dogs on amendment just with the boy apart in front of his mother now I is reason for telling that story and the story about how the Turks in Bulgaria through sloppy children up in the hair and then climb on the hands and abandoned us or he told a story about someone parents and parents to lock their five -year-old daughter in a cold basement and made her eat excrement you know and I brought a number of these horrible stories was to ultimately ask the question how can these stories and all these other horrible evils ever be justified even if the end of time what a divine harmony is to be restored wrong insufferable questions are to be resolved when God 's ways are for ever being vindicated before man and angel I want to read you a quote from Ivan Carmen saw from the book Ivan says this in this whole context I see with my own highs behind a lie down with the line in the event my celebrations murderer I want to be there when everyone suddenly understands what it has all been for but then there are the children and what am I to do about them that's a question I can answer for the hundredth time I repeat there are numbers of questions but I taken only the children because in their case what I mean his soul on answerable weekly year listen if all must suffer to pay for the terminal harmony what have the children to do with it please tell me both you can express the words with the grace and power that Dostoevsky 's sculpted a thriving caramel sauce mouth who hasn't felt the same question at some point grind your soul especially those of us who believe in a loving God the children what am I to do about there is not a problem for atheists if you don't believe in God I'm not saying atheists don't fret over those things and aren't trained by those things but they don't present a kind of philosophical challenge that they give the theorists children being ripped apart by hunting dogs like dogs and babies they admit this is just what it means to live in an absurd thought this universe that was created purely by chance and it's not a problem if it's a problem for them a sense of fathers in but it doesn't first present a philosophical problem for those who believe in a loving God and loving all-powerful God this is in any new in the third century before Christ then at the curious asked this question is God willing to prevent evil but not able then he is not omnipotent is he able but not willing then he is malevolent is he both able and only then from where does evil it seems you are able nor willing then why call him a eight that's the gist of the question as I said there are many logical arguments for the existence of God that was what my whole last talk was about I don't want to go to the market very quickly got you you've got to know the moral argument where does morality come from if there's not a God as I used an example before I used to see the Nazis won the war and convinced everybody in the world that it was okay anybody with one Jewish grandparent should be murdered if the rallies of purely human construct and everybody believe that there could be wrong if morality is something we humans create alone and everybody believes that the Nazis were writing anybody with one Jewish grandparent audit and murder then ultimately had to be right because if humans around you won't you're not comfortable with that which a lot of people aren't than that for many people that's a powerful argument for repeats for a transcendent morality morality from above and were also that come from but from God then there is the cosmological argument which I talked about me ultimately in the end even nothing created the universe or God created the universe on marketable whole thing now but not pushed nothing is the only thing that doesn't need an explanation prior to a and an eternal God doesn't need an explanation prior to its gotten in the nothing created the universe or God I think logically God is a lot more logical than saying nothing create you and you got the argument from design rentable design I made the point it's kind of ironic more science lines in life the less logical and less feasible becomes her explanation for the origins of that if they say all occurred by chance Nick some people just got one of the century 's greatest scientists argue that space aliens came and seated life on earth because no weight conversion by chance the number estimated number of years of the universe again even if you believe in space aliens that doesn't solve the question of where to space aliens come from all this is not to repeat I feel like overall pattern can I just went around there a lot of rational logical reasons for believing in God but none of these arguments in and of itself proves the existence of God all of them together know neither their code as far as they go but I guess which isn't far enough for just as everyone would believe but no matter how good are logical the evidence is I set up my last talk I believe the evidence of logic and reason for existence the evidence for God is much more logical and reasonable than for eighteen eighties but no matter how good the moral argument is the theological argument the cosmological argument either together or separately put them all together none of them answers that even begins to answer Eileen Karamazov 's question the children what am I to do about them however logical and reasonable laws proves are those arguments are there no more logical and reasonable than the question how can the God how can the God of the moral teleological and Carla cosmological argument be all loving and all-powerful why evil exists I think this is definitely the most logical and reasonable question asked in any world where faith in God coexists with eight -year-old speech ripped to shreds by hunting dog is one philosopher put it if God is perfectly loving you must wish to abolish evil if he is all-powerful he must be able to abolish evil but evil exists therefore God cannot be both omnipotent and perfectly lovely people here with this I mean we all wrestle with this I still even now after all these years rest with them who believes in God doesn't wrestle with it if God is all-powerful and could do all things why is there evil unless though you start understand alternately what on the news means in this sign you up omnipotence doesn't necessarily mean everything that we think good thoughts of omnipotence can't do what is logically impossible what I mean by that ten minutes create a triangle that has four signs contact Randy triangle as for science no because the moment is for signs is no longer the triangle can not limited to create a circle with four right angles and in the page developer is still that combined create a surplus of four right angles now because the moments before writing no longer a circle make two plus two at the moment as far that's no longer to plus two and here's the point cannot introduce crazy along that is force think about this for a minute can God create a law that is force I say no because the moment that one of his force it's no longer love just as a triangle to be a triangle must have three sides live to be love must be freely given the force love is to annihilate a flight from Farmington antiproton they meet and instantly they manage law by its very definition as love must be freely given otherwise it's something other than what one of the law has to be free original love without freedom law is as impossible as including plane without threat Erwin think about this document create on the incident three begin creating law without freedom did you create water without freedom begin to make compliance without freedom but not below guide to force every creature in the universe to hear him enforce every creature in the University of Washington he can force every creature in the universe to obey him but God can't force he cannot force a single creature in the universe casino manager for the moment versus lot it's not long off it's no longer love by you necessarily certainly be wrong love has to be rewritten not love and here is I think the crucial point on the salt question of evil hinges the only way human beings in order for us to love God hath to be three morally three we have to have the option not to her house it's not truly love and the only way humans can have moral freedom true freedom is if we have to potential to make a moral choices without that potential without that option for immorality or evil humans are not morally free and are not morally free we cannot love can you see the point your moral freedom doesn't demand that wrong choices are made on more only the potential to make without the possibility to do more moral freedom would be an illusion somebody once hard to click on create morally free beings who would choose only the right could create morally frightening because I think the concept of freedom is very patently truly morally great means to be more of grant me a happy action to do wrong or else you're not truly free go back per minute think about it all I want to get an out you read about Lucifer you meeting with the singular Isaiah you were perfect in your ways from the day you were created until Woody was founded just got a perfect being created by a perfect God in a perfect environment and then ultimately iniquity was found and how good that they the Bible says God is love love is permeating essence throughout the universe God is love God wants us to love him back and those are the only way Lucifer could love God as he was I have to ask immediately got a perfect being in a perfect environment iniquity was found in him obviously perfection include the potential to make the wrong choice to make him more choice otherwise never what happened it never would've happened and why is because I believe again love to be love has to be freely given look at how many even he why did God tell adult heat of the tree water got talent that you only cut out the train somewhere you don't like saying it's like me yet I tell my kid are you going to the moon tomorrow while I say something that would be impossible to do they had the moral freedom they had the option to do what was wrong because love to be loved has to be free given perfect beings in a perfect environment God wanted them to love him Julie had no choice if God wanted beings eleven he had to make him free they love by its very definition is love demanded that free so for beings to love okay once we went there with me this far but say I convince you of this argument so far I think the Ellen White says in numerous places she talks about you love thy creating free moral beings this leads to the next question is why did God create free mall is capable of love is not only that they had potential for evil but that he wouldn't eventually she was evil to you I say one thing in order for God to create to create moral beings who could love you have to create them free he had no choice he had no choice if he wanted free beings who can love them he had no choice he had to create them freely okay I will argue that adamantly takes your logic demands that but what she create those things to begin with significantly question freedom is a necessary prerequisite for moral loving beings but one prerequisite required that these moral beings the see what I'm saying what I want to the universe I think the universe existed fine for a long time without us what kind of moral contradiction would arise if human beings were here this tiny little early this tiny little corner of the cosmos you don't know what required us are free moral beings a priori to anything in the universe what if anything has made us a logical necessity and that our nonexistence would entail a fundamental contradiction to the point I don't see anything logically no contradictory about human beings not exist again to logical contradiction in the forceful God had no choice he had to want to read more of the moral beings who could love them you have created three but even have to create us why he created us especially especially if on the new we were going to see so here's where we wanted to what we wanted to a problem not yet know if we are not logically necessary to be bidding on an all loving all-powerful God Raven is probably without having to do so you have to make guns which must mean virus can create a nice despite his foreknowledge that we would choose evil and second he created us knowing that you know we would delete your note we would then we can create as knowing that even when she was able to start when creating us knowing beforehand that we would choose evil but these are all loving God he would have to do this knowing ultimately that a greater good would arise they think about my logic here for a minute okay if he knowing the free PC would create would choose evil and got created those beans anyway and if God is all loving they must have created those beings with the knowledge that the swipe their evil choices he can ultimately bring about a greater good that reflects Islam no matter how difficult for people like us are like Ivan comes off to see that point okay let me summarize for the guy had no choice if he wanted to make the initial could love him he had to make them free you have to make them morally free and have no choice in gate but he did have to create a she had a choice in creating the God created us anyway because he's all-knowing he did so with the knowledge he did so with the knowledge that these free beings that he created would break his law would use the freedom he gave not to love him would bring sin and iniquity pain suffering you did it anyway now if he's an all loving God is getting anyway knowing what would happen knowing all these things would happen we have to ultimately believe that he is going to bring unclear good out of it exactly sent so far please see the logic here but this leads to even anyways even a deeper problem if all God 's ways are to be vindicate in the grand final harmony that indicates God and all that has happened on Earth than the question is how can God justify working it out here in the dirt in human blood sweat tears in my Dostoevsky 's eye and incarnate sauce children while he sits enthroned upon the glory of heaven see whatever the profound moral issues whatever the grand moral issues and all that are resolved in the struggle between good and evil however efficiently and permanently the promised absurdities are gone out of your way I now all the absurdity and wipe away all tears the question still remains why should a non- vision on that and God safely and scallops somewhere in the heavens while the God knowing the end from the beginning while he watches us fools here call round on our bellies ignorant of the next moment much less the conclusion of all things white coat whatever point 's all loving God wanted to be made you know you don't be made by him but by himself rather than have us human beings so inextricably and miserably drawn into no choice of our own we choose to be here Amar and business don't get let's review let's review it I think that's a fair question and I had no choice he trained the trainers free if he wanted us to love we have to create a weekend anyway I think that knowing that we would send and bring evil parties and all loving God is going to bring a greater good out of this whole 's but then questions all that wonderful guys up there in heaven sitting in from the Angels all around him in a warship him and praising him while before she looks down here struggling and suffering sickness disease violence or is just how fair is that how does that do what there's really only one answer to that question only one answer that I know that can even begin to help answer that question eye doctor to come in and give you the whole answer from the origin of evil I mean your LMI very clear that there is no reason for its existence if the question were dealing with this you know how do we justify God 's love and omniscience and all that in the world with evil I wanted to visit him on a switch gears here and I want to come back to this point so funny I have an uncle who just recently died with him to New York use a well-known classic well-known among writers of experimental novelist when his death the New York Times full-page thing on my uncle 's typical New York intellectual very secular very secular I will try to witness to him he just laughed in my face just typical Manhattan intellectual very bright very right back to you witness one novel I tried three four times to read it I could read it and recently just the other day I read on Slate magazine an article about another author and it mentioned my uncle 's novel and is often tried to pull off but my uncle pulled off in his novel and after that I went back and read my uncle 's book again now that I understood what he was doing after four times I was finally able to read that Scott O'Reilly but in one of his novels a different one in the notebook snow plot no seen no summary no action everything happens inside the head of a person and somehow he managed managed to pull it off but all out of sight essays David Morrison but all that aside the art had brought that up because here's my uncle Barry hard-core atheist in one of his novels he quotes Frederick Nietzsche that you know the name Nietzsche probably considering the old one of the winningest when he died in nineteen hundred but a very influential atheist very influential and positive note I was a total nut job but I'm very accurate talk to somebody over David yesterday Michael Hansel was not something else was germs at all I would love to go to read Nietzsche in the original language pussy was a very good writer one minute you're reading reading a genius but next minute the nutcase but it is at my uncle cloning one line from Nietzsche in one of his novels and that I have read that why I'm bringing this up because of the irony in all this when I read that why suddenly helped pull it all together for about this question of evil in the universe by an all loving all-powerful God I guess it's ironic that my uncles and atheists another eight years and that really helped resolve this whole issue for a single solvent like a synonymous ever resolved evil but it's helped me work through it to my satisfaction the question of evil with an all loving all-powerful all good God dungarees and you're going to go home and read it again a number of our work for otolith you be expecting some great grandiose thinking and expectant humanity disappointing but let's try to work through this going and what we been here's the quote in the final analysis one experience only ones self but here are the in the final analysis one experiences only ones the sale now let's think about this it's very profound and answered so much for me when we grieve with the grieving when we went to the wiki and software with the suffering we experience only are we only are all clients only our own anguish never anyone else we believe only our own blood we spew out only our own spirit we secrete only our own sweat no no one else's no matter how close we used our flesh other people 's pain comes to us filtered always in the tomorrow on our own he then is all that we won't ever know whether a mother holding a feverish infant to her breast or a spouse clutching a docking spouse in their arms getting spliced into an inspiration to your body can't heal up for your pain I can't tell us some of your pain anything can go to feel anything on the know is going to be my no matter how well outrageous or consuming our team is always our and its more frightened and thought thoughts can be sharing your pain never can unlike the liver or the heart or blood suffering is not transferable nine transplantable with yours is yours alone don't you think about these numbers we think about the millions dying here millions of either the numbers overwhelm us God help you to get all these millions of people die in the hundreds of thousands been killed in the tsunami how can these been martyred in the Holocaust how can you know now sixty million people Stalin murdered the star well-known culottes you think of these numbers and yet at annus horribilis it is every single one of these people died and suffered only their own pain you can't be a doubt that Bill Clinton once said I feel your pain I was shocked my favorite president lie Clinton or but the point is the point is you can't all you could know if you are only paying receivers Angel can sympathize with some nuclear wheat with them you I hear you're not feeling all you ever know if you're only paying and suffering no privatization of pain this person when I is personalization of language is good because it means that no one has ever suffered this is the point it means that no one on earth has ever suffered more than a single individual can suffer okay three when we finally had to stand always by what's is miniscule it is evanescent is assumed we know no more softly than our own personal metabolism allows us no more casino in her own delirious cells can carry no matter how many miles of nerves are wired was around my fingers off on an urgent house in a water name but a few fragrant twisted threads in contrast the eternity that engulfs us our finitude is our best defense our feet are our physical boundaries are best protection is how fortunate that pain and suffering remains tension in limited by the inherent confines of our own individuality it's hard enough the spamming of our own Penny a matching bearing somebody else's she would've sent me to ensure we all struggle and our old pain in her own grief can be pretty taught but is never more new matter what you ever suffer matter what you ever goes through it's only your own you can't take on anyone since because no matter what whatever you feel whatever you go through is still only your own different about the numbers the numbers are frightening another thing what do you know when I asked the leader through the carnage of World War I we got around worldwide he was fifty million items Spanish influenza and leaving the Spanish influenza was no way to Don now from a very rough painful way to go in a fifteen million working on at the numbers in each one was all just individual suffering no one suffered more than a single individual there is however that all this is otherwise pandemic personalization of pain there is however one exception to all of this one exception and one exceptional and maybe some of you know where I'm going and that is at the course think about this at the cost the creator of the universe the being who spoke the universe into existence the being was sprinkling the cosmos with PE film that bulimia Ryan and being read a hundred billion billion superstring lose sight if they don't believe in string theory anymore into a proton he is the one upon all key shrine down into human flesh was nailed to the cross and have all wall all the time all the suffering in the world that was how only individually and all corporately fell on God in the person of Jesus at the cross that we experience only our own beer only our own drain at the cross Jesus experienced it all all wall all the misery all the anguish that we no reason to believe there was God on the cross he got all the first I think said this Isaiah fifty three use simple words being for our grease and carried our sorrows now I I can only read the Old Testament and the Hebrew and I am quite a bit fan of the King James is not one of these contains only people I don't care I thought the team changed its such a bad job this is one of the worst I cannot imagine a more worse translation then this verse right here before archive recent carried our sorrows no that the Hebrew word for reefs here not awful my child hope it's just an increase is just and it doesn't catch the essence of physical pain and emotional sorrow is one of the strongest words in the Hebrew Bible for suffering the more hours without all the world Monte Carlo the more I briefly carried our sorrows a Hebrew word hold me really interestingly enough is often usually translated physical sentence you with your just hand filming editing who were holding out any context and what is that means that sickness sickness and suffering the city 's sewer system people wore our motto how will contain a summary of our showers is losing it's a whole world war all train all the suffering alma mater and the whole leave the sickness of the whole world but so we don't only rules cross sell on God at once we reach when Ellen White cool this is from the fifth Bible commentary page one one oh three NASCAR Pineda send there will never know the horror of the curse of sin which the Savior bore no sorrow and there any comparison with the sorrow of him upon whom the wrath of God dealt with overwhelming force human nature can enter but a limited amount of testing trial I can only endure the finite nature and the human nature sitcoms as well as I is is limited we only know so much we can no more pain than what we as individuals get no but the nature of Christ has a far greater capacity for suffering for the human interested in divine nature and training capacity for suffering to endure that which result from the sins of the loss world the acne which Christ endured broadens and deepens and gives us a more exalted conception of the character of seeing in another place he talks about the woes of woes of a lost world forming on Christ at the cross but you see here and here alone I believe that the question I asked earlier about question is if the greater good in all of God 's ways are to be harmonized to harmonize and exonerated in the grand final harmony how can God justify working it out here in the dirt in human blood sweat and tears in the children when he sits around in it all happen with the Angels serving him whatever the profound questions whatever the grand moral issues resolved in the struggle between good and evil however efficiently and per we are promised answers auto race all doubt the question remain why should God be up there in heaven working it all out when we're down here and I believe in the new alternate ultimately the cross is the only answer we have to the questions however much blood sweat and tears dripped here none of them none of us has ever suffered more than a single human being can suffer our suffering is limited limited by our own finitude our pain never surpassed our finitude no one ever ate more than here she individually could withstand the moment that threshold was crossed that contracted all that cut it off in contrast in contrast far from remaining safely ensconced somewhere up in the sky at the cross the evils of the Laurel and all the horrible results are in and God wants in the person of cheese something sinister can you see the point people are hard-core race carried our sorrows S yummy they often talk our member onetime reading World War II there were some general they call the blood and guts Jones will say why General got blood and guts Jones some enlisted man said oh yeah great but it's our blood in Argos is being spilled some general sitting behind a desk and they are out there get shelving Shotton bomb this e-book Frost shows us is the opposite of that I didn't remain safe way is mostly seen down inhumanity among us and suffered in a way that none of us at her software that was the cost of freedom that was the cost of ghetto training free beans knowing ultimately where what they would do with that freedom God was willing to go through that endure that so that we could have free choice at the cost all the planet 's finite evils that we'll only use finite beings fell on the infinite God and the mass that wants they arrived in the statement of God died on the cross of his humanity whatever Jesus die on the cross from everything that film so well this time to review this guy had no choice if he wanted us to love him he had to create us free they got out of joystick and it's just the limits of omnipotence omnipotence did not do what is logically impossible that's where people run into the problem it's it's it's the problem in language Bible says God cannot lie scriptures I cannot lie so there's certain things even God cannot do got so we had no choice if you want us to love them he had to create is free but he didn't have to create us nothing said he had to create us but he created us anyway now classy and all-knowing God he knew he knew what would happen he knew about all the evils that would come but you can also love you so even going to all this evil Connie traded us anyway knowing but because he's an all loving God I have to ultimately believe that despite all this later could this can come in all this pain and some but then that comes to the question all that's one earth that's wonderful as all loving all loving God all-powerful God is going to bring out all is good out of all this was not nice he's up there in heaven now taken back door whatever God doesn't haven't my work down here living systems living with mock top of and hold me we are living with all that how nice and how dare and how how to is that that's a fair valid question and I think it's the ultimately would be the ultimate question that I believe would seal the argument for God as we know but then you've got across then you've got across which answers that answer satellite we can't even begin to imagine the cost software corporate that can try to wrap your money before to me that the key verse in Isaiah fifty three feet six feet for our lease that hour you read it it's the whole world Christ death was for all humanity before I will not come close again to get a concordance lookup at Hebrew word Montcalm who from the root word cop in the suffering and are hold me what we know only individualized Christ God in the person of Christ for corporate on a map and that alone I think answers that final question about what God safely ensconced up there in heaven and went down here the cross answers it in ways we can't comprehend what I try to do here is called a theodicy support daughter know if you don't know every happiness audit no theodicy from two Greek words CO God and DK justify and it's basically the question of the justification of God not as we understand justification by faith but a total different ways basically it's what this question is not as all loving all the all powerful why is there pain and suffering in the world and the Odyssey is an attempt to justify the goodness and love of God in face of all this evil but you've got to remember the definition of the Odyssey it's the justification of God not the justification of the next two completely different thing it's not like all I needed to have it all Jesus now I understand why my daughter was raped and murdered right from my eyes all praise Laura went at it any other way and that's not what that's not what you want something that ultimately evil remains unexplainable I would love to give Adam Illinois a new I once wrote an article called the inexplicable products we learned for ministry and help with Ellen White's statement that there's no explanation for evil if you could explain it he went to would be to justify Jeff there's no explanation by means of explaining it all out should additional explanation for it but ultimately God can explain it either percent would be split it would be exploitable we can explain it can't so this is not a justification for evil ultimately it's a justification for God and Alan White talks time and again about how mall said and done we get a few of the cross work in a seat on the cross the creator of the universe ultimately bearing in himself not just the sins of the world but all our pain all are suffering everything comes from seeing he bears the sins of the world the wrath of God for the sins of the world our mock compote and hold the that will be a no for us to learn to trust in the goodness of God enough for us to accept ultimately the goodness of God where in the end were told that in the end the lost bingo SourceSafe admin God 's goodness and justice the loss ultimately admitted and even Satan himself would meet the justice and goodness of God in the face of evil so I guess at the cross got suffered more than any of us because he bore himself corporately but we know only as individuals to let me review this one last time where we've been God had no choice if he wanted being hello you create a free to create us we did it anyway knowing what we would do but all loving God have to bring a greater good I am yet the question is okay he brings this greater good out of it why he's apparent heaven were all down here that's really nice I wonder and the only answer I know is the cross which where he suffered more than any one of us any individual human will ever suffer no it doesn't fully answer items question the question about Ivins children the children what shall I do about them doesn't fall answer because I don't believe there ever going to be fully answered I don't believe it can be answered if you can answer every case of evil that what you're justifying each other in a good reason why I so-and-so 's daughter was raped and murdered in front of her is good reason why you know the six million Jews were gassed and burned alive or whatever however you want me you can give a good reason for it in your justifying it I don't mean evil will never be just as to just what he wants to just one ultimately though in the in God is going to be just that was the question we were dealing with how good God the all loving all good all-powerful and evil exists and we went through her little litany in the ultimately come to the best answer we had this language has been more than sufficient is the cross and that helps me live with these questions as unanswerable as they are which for now is good enough D when I really try to grasp across I say it's more than good I've only got a few minutes left here you gotten questions on okay go and speak last everybody can hear gay by the question is good question how can it go if God came to the logically impossible that how to do some of these rooms what what is logically impossible about manna coming from heaven but let's logically implausible about because we don't understand it you know that's not a logical impossibility is not a logical and what what was logically impossible what that because we can't do it because we don't understand how he did it there's nothing in the definition of that in and of itself means it has to be turned in as we see as we see you see what I'm saying don't get a circle to be a circle out of the ground okay so there's nothing inherently logically impossible about those things even though there beyond our understanding the discussion is beyond our understanding doesn't make it logically impossible in the I hope I will okay but personally as well again you're the only with our women first you know you cannot get me off my science in their family is in any city on the basic laws as we understand them now basic laws as we understand as we understand it now yeah and what they were dealing with definitions here as opposed to identify where you get into some philosophical discussion matters of fact versus definition the physical world as it appears to us now you were very limited in our understanding of the physical world but there's nothing inherently contradictory about God and God could sweeten the world into existence Main Scripture says God spoke the world into existence you create hello we could create out of nothing is going beyond where the laws of physics and chemistry take us as well sure I guess you want to argue that what we understand the definition of the circle as we understand it circled your you are well can we just we can talk more about this if you want we just run out of time here but ultimately there are certain things aren't as we under Sandra logically impossible but I don't see things like miracles raising the dead dropping man out of heaven as inherently split in the definitions of those things as impossibility obviously they're not be believed the Scripture to do that but there is something like love to be love as we understand it has to be freely given us a moment 's force is no longer what let's pray a lot the question of evil is a very difficult one it's one we all struggle with I thank you for the reality of the crossing for the understanding we have other help us see in there your suffering and help us to learn from their position on how to trust you that you would do that would go through that is God we can trust even in the face of suffering that we see give us the faith to reach beyond what we don't fully understand in Jesus name IR this message was produced by QFC for diminishing his pain as she lay cc inspired many young people in my room I have a base price in February two download or purchase other resources Langley knew bin Laden making lazy lately donate visit was done with them though she see when done with you also reach us via mail box seven eight six Ann Arbor Michigan eight one oh six this recording is licensed under creative Commons this means you can not shared please attribute this recording is him him

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