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Foundations of Health Ministries, Part 21

Fred Hardinge


Fred Hardinge

Associate Director of Health Ministries, General Conference of Seventh-day Adventists



  • February 2, 2012
    10:30 AM
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I'm glad to have the opportunity of meeting with you I wish I could establish the relationships that you were talking about but those happen over time appreciate the own very kind introduction supplies and be here I've been at the Markham Woods some feminist church all week with our vegetarian food instructor program that meets morning and afternoon and we have for the South are known today but I got away for a little bit before I talk about so my assigned topic I wanted just the Canadian could got the pictures choosing Sarah on many of you heard positive choices .com there are several of you that have all the rest of you need to and I'm going to tell you just very briefly about what we offer positive choices .com is a website where you can find current health information and you can get a daily health tips if you wish you can go to the website you can subscribe to it and get it in your e-mail every morning you can not to get on twitter we use all the modern social media that we can Google plus so you can you can get those health it's an all in in any way those that's one thing that we do we also have a number of authors write lengthier articles would call them blogs and there on the site all related to health and I find that many people I believe many of your pastors if you're interested in giving a health that are a little health talk those blogs can be wonderful resource for providing that kind of information I had a physician recently called me he said I was asked to give a health nugget of church you know what to do in the Prosser said you better go to health life sort of positive choices .com and he said I've already to give more health nuggets now he said it's a wonderful resource also vacillates on the website information is changing constantly we also provide a and you have it in your hand a sample of a monthly newsletter that you can download and copy and distribute in your church or any other venue that you wish to it does not cost anything you do need to register on our site in order to receive that when you register for health lights .com art for health lights you can also register to receive a notification of when the next issue of ID when you register you will receive an e-mail notification each month with the next issue is available and ready for download the other thing that you can choose is to register for health bites HD health vice HD is a video product it's a want we release one of months I'm going to show you one here that was just released this morning and you can go to the website positive choices .com you can click on the tab that says healthwise HD you can choose and you can see all the archives you can view them streaming on the site but if you want to download them to be able to put on a stick or CD or something to show at church in high resolution you download a high-resolution copy of it so that you can use it to show to larger venues that you need to be registered and when you go to that particular one on the site when you're registered you can simply click on the download and you can download it to your machine short-term there are you cannot put it on a stick or however you wish to do it I wanted to show you of this one that was just released today and I'm sorry I don't have better speaker so we don't have much time here but you get a feel for it it's no longer than four and a half minutes most of them are about four minutes in one so they fit nicely between sound school and church and it's a resource for health that you can rely on for its accuracy and balance the variety of people Allen and was on legit on the December one we featured him on the gift of health it was Christmas season and the gift on I did one last month on keeping resolutions and we release one each month at the beginning of the month and you can use it as you wish you can go back in the archives and you can use them that way so while we just started in November so we're building our health lights we've already have about two years worth in the camera year and a half in the canceled as vacant we may begin releasing two months but for right now were leasing one a month so that so that's available to any of you without charge and if you have any difficulty with it contact us just at info positive choices .com will respond to will help you in any way that we can every month when you when you sign up to download this again is no cost for the very simple sign up when you downloaded each month it will be personalized where it says on the back page now special issue this is a sample it will say prepared for whatever organization you put in so you can put in it although the you know Cedars Seventh-day Adventist church and when you downloaded it will be personalized in your copy to that organization and if you have more than one church and you wanted personalized to each church then you need to sign up twice and downloaded twice and each time it will and get personalized that way yes welcome to translate now you have a color we try to design and it obviously looks the best in color but we try to design it in colors that will not just look black if you printed in black and white aware we were thinking maybe of doing two different editions black-and-white and color but it certainly looks the best in color okay thank you for for your time I hope that you will take advantage of the opportunity of using that resource right to our topic of in terms of sleep you know we live in a world that's most people with Yasmin will say I'm tired if I were to ask you to raise your hands now I know you're here enjoying Florida in wintertime and you can relax and have a good time but I'll bet you most of you would say that you are tired at least to some extent on the if especially at the end of the day but many people even in the morning our tire one has to question can you commit suicide by not breathing holding your breath a no you cannot as soon as you pass out you'll start breathing don't recommend it but as soon as you pass out you'll start Raven you cannot kill yourself by not breathing but let me ask another question can you kill yourself by not getting enough sleep you're right class it all depends on what you're doing when you falsely I tired mind that is if you go long enough without sleep your brain will simply fall a sleep and if you fall asleep while you're driving or your operating a complex piece of equipment it could be deadly dull sleeps that are involuntary are usually very short from just a few milliseconds to maybe a couple of seconds but they're very and the more tired you get you are the more frequently you have those involuntary slips often referred to as micro sleeps so yes lack of sleep can actually kill you it all depends on what's happening now I'm a dietitian I love nutrition on on teaching the vegetarian coordinating the visitor and for the instructor course of doing some of the teaching as well on and I love the field of nutrition but you know I've come to the conclusion that there may be a few health habits are more important than simply what we choose to eat because they influence every aspect of our lives one of those is exercised with another one is sleep and as Seventh-day Adventists we have talked for years about the ministry on one twenty seven the eight doctors or no start or however you wish to express it were hearing tonight about our urban design about creation health all based and inspired by those statements that segment on ministry killing one twenty seven and one of those is rest but how often do we hear anything about rest we hear almost nothing I haven't I went to my doctorate in public health and I never had a class one class on the importance of sleep and it is true now that dates me a little bit because we really didn't hear much about the importance of sleep until the last fifteen years and really within the last ten years we've heard a lot more so sleep is absolutely essential I want to go through some of these very quickly on one of the interesting things about sleep is the more tired we get were just like our children member when you have small children and you said nonassignable but Danny I'm not sleepy and yet they were ready to fall apart ill they may have been lying down it's either you know that there their eyes are going sleepy and yet as soon as US and goes like this I put on October but you know they are because you see the object of science in a very interesting study of closely describe subjects when they are all objective measures of performance were reviewed this was in college students the more tired they were not subjectively the less likely they were to admit that they were taught because the same area of the mind that we used to assess our levels of performance is what is most effective by not getting adequate rest I know you're not all from the US but so and actually the two ten polls didn't the numbers related change all the Gallup news Newsweek survey found that almost two thirds of the population are tired most of the time according to the survey the reason this is very subjective people are saying were tired all the time there are many reasons for the Wii there are some concerning trends there is a Colombian Columbia University in New York has a laboratory that has been keeping records of the amount of sleep that Americans have been getting since nineteen fourteen and adults today are sleeping one and a half hours laughs then did our shouldn't say great that our grandparents one half hours less on average less sleep and what's perhaps of greatest concern is that today teens are sleeping to a half hours less than they did in nineteen sixty two and this is good hard research data so we're getting less sleep as in the day and age in which we live today probably the most the most fascinating research that has been done in this area and has been corroborated now by others remember to show you Doctor Gregory believes he's data he worked for the Walter Reed Army research Institute for more than twenty years he's a psychiatrist but his is today considered me one of the world 's experts in the area of sleep and its impact on human life 's is recent he's retired and he actually now works for the University of Washington in Spokane and heads up their research lab all and I moved before coming to the General conference from Spokane and so I had the opportunity for couple of years of reconnecting with him he's a very fascinating man I was on the plane flying this focus on that late last year and I looked across the island here he was and we had a good conversation on and I'll tell you little bit about that conversation because it was a very special one on but I'll tell you that as we close what he did a few years ago was he took army volunteers guinea pigs and he put them in the retreat like setting wherefore to wait if time he monitored their sleep each night as well as their activities in the daytime they they actually live twenty four hours a day with you with the electroencephalography leads on their heads and little recorders on their belts and he was able to verify that among this group they were getting an adequate amount of sleep and that they were fully rest he then took them to the laboratory at Johns Hopkins University and he gave them up at scan and a CAT scan at the same time actually they were two different machines but it was within the same timeframe and then emerged the images the CAT scan gave the good geography of the brain and the pet scan gave the color information and this is what it looked like when they were fully rested bellow are looking at here of course this is the forebrain this is the brainstem this is back at the back of the brain and the brighter the color the greater the amount of blood flow to that area of the brain neuroscientists call this brain activation and he correlates with the amount of glucose that is being burned as a result of brain activity I even say that there was a lot of yellow up here as well as bright purple and of course this was a very bright spot back here this is the visual cortex and these people were awake and the optic nerves from the eyes send the information back here to the visual cortex where we interpret thoughts where we perceive what we see and then that information is sent to the higher centers of the brain for processing and use in and in various ways but you can see that stuff but this is arrested brain then he took the same subjects in the same retreat center and for four nights he deprived slum of one to one and a half hours of sleep per night now he did that by letting big German Shepherd dogs run down the halls at two o'clock in the morning barking they had a fire set the fire long alarm off at three in the morning and everybody had to vacate the building and then they let them back in and they did various things knocked on the door they came to the door nobody was there they did all kinds of things to disturb their sleep but they were measuring how much sleep they got in the quality of their sleep and then they put them up at eight o'clock by the way they were awakened at six in the morning the test was done at eight in the morning two hours after Michael is fully awake and rested they did the test again after depriving them of a few hours of sleep over a period of four days and I want to the whole watch the change in color on the screen because you don't have to be a neuroscientist to see the difference this was the tired brain and you you notice that even in the visual cortex and site is not really affected much by lack of sleep but notice what happened from what that's the area of the mine where we make decisions that's really near the mind that determines the success we experience in life and I'll go back to the previous slide so you can see that once I will get there sorry the computer start acting now I'll change it to the tired just so you can see see a marked difference this was quantitated in the research and by the way because this is scanning technology they analyze over sixteen hundred slices of the brain in each subject but we're just looking in a sagittal section right down the middle because that is what we're most familiar with yes I there there's like there's a huge difference in terms of brain activation salt the yellow has really disappeared and there's more blue which represented the least activation the difference I used to put a slide on the scale and most people didn't want it was too confusing to it this is from one subject but I used more than twenty five subjects in the study and he found very strong consistency between all and I can only illustrate one all on the screen now when he published this data he's this is what he said in his first publication fatigue selectively targets the highest order of cognitive mental functions and critical thinking becomes impossible unless not criticizing your neighbor as the high order of mental processes and neural physiologists classify those as the following discernment which is the ability to tell whether there's one or more choices available if there are no choices available there's no decision to be made now I don't think you can think of any situation in life where there is zero choice there's always multiple choices in terms of making decisions but that's what discernment is judgment is the process in which we go through them are from solo 's that evaluates the options that we have determined and chooses what is the best option under this current set of circumstances initiative is the ability to begin doing something that we have judged to be appropriate and I can know I can think of times you can think of times no doubt in your life where you knew you needed to do something but she didn't start doing and that was probably when your tar creates Emily is not just artistic creativity creativity is being able to look at a problem from a multiple from multiple views and come up with the best solution to that problem creatively and then forethought is the ability to do something now that will save time in the future and it's very interesting that people who are tired become less and less efficient in what they do it takes them longer and longer to do it and so decision-making involves all five of those higher-order mental processes and those occur in the frontal lobes and that's the area that is particularly targeted in terms of loss of sleep and diminished capacity now he also found which we've talked about the frontal lobes which is the second one there he also found in this research that the thalamus which is a very small portion of the brain just above the brainstem has many functions many important functions but it also was greatly impacted by loss of sleep even small amounts of loss of sleep and one of the things that the thalamus is responsible for is taking sensory information and sending it to the other parts of the brain it's kind of the central processing area so if you're making decisions it is dependent upon what you are saying the date of the provisional data is sent to the frontal lobes for processing in making that decision and it too is greatly impacted and if if I can illustrate it this way we have lists all of the senses taste sight hearing smell touch just like a funnel and the foulness is like the frontal that funnel now if I had a large gallon jug of its precious liquid and I wanted to pour it into a small container like this and I didn't want to lose a single drop what would I need I need a formal and I would then have to pour it from the large container to the small container at the right rate because if it's a small funnel I can port it faster than funnel can hold an annual overflow and what happens when we are tired is that the funnel gets smaller and so we lose data or information and one cent a day that is gone it's gone it's lost because the brain just cannot process and that is largely responsible that's one of the big responsibilities of the foulness and when we make decisions on only partial information we then have the greatest risk of making catastrophic decisions we need to make the best decisions we need all the information possible the process in the high centers higher centers of the brain so fatigue lowers our cognitive efficiency it reduces ability to process new information efficiently it lessens the awareness of our surroundings it impairs learning no information universe in California and San Jose has to broker researchers that for almost twenty years now I've been looking at fatigue and academic performance in senior high school students and college students very very interesting to and very clear findings that if students will go to sleep get two hours the quality sleep before midnight they will retain newly learned information longer and from the profit very very interesting data and I don't know I think about the profit that it decreases long-term memory newly learned information is put into temporary holding areas and then during the REM phase of sleep at night especially before midnight it is sort of a reorganized and put into long-term memory areas and that's why we believe that it maximizes the retention decision making false chance levels and saw tired person is inefficient their slower their last safe and they make more mistakes now Alan mentioned that I work with computers of the and I do it at home on the tech support for my wife and she's not particularly computer literate but so one night I was having problems with my local network this was several years ago and I said she said it's time to go to bed nice and longer to fix this and then come to bed at about an hour later she came into my office and she said how's it going very sweetly and I said well I'm still struggling I don't know what the problem this and she said don't you think you want to practice what you preach well I was like an arrow in the heart on I knew she was right nice and I many get it done you know I worked until after midnight and finally gave up and went to bed got up the next morning after my exercise and devotions before I went to the office has ever got a fix of Juneau in five minutes I found the problem and I had it fixed after one my mind was rested and I wasted two hours or more of time the night before and I often think of the sermons that I wrote on Friday night and I'm one and I look back at the notes I have and I'm embarrassed I have found it if I have a writing assignment if I get up in the morning and work on it I get it done better and faster than FI do it in the evening and is much more accurate and effective as the tired people just aren't efficient and unfortunately we live in a world today where there is a ubiquitous intrusion of personal social and cultural activity into the time traditionally reserved reserved firstly I was riding the elevator here in this hotel they don't night and somebody that I said are you and I wasn't from our group and he said had did you watch that success last night while I've even turned the television off but I'm not saying that the break but I don't have time for and in the evening I need my rest and that's when most people sit and vegetate watching television and of course we can talk about content on television also the quality of the content which is not very high let's look on the added at some research that was done by a different group of investigators from Alabama in the U.S. Army on productivity and sleep debt when we mess in our sleep we build up sleep that when we missed two or three we end up with more sleep and it just continues to accumulate and perform us goes down the morsel sleep that we have what they did was they took well rested soldiers put that who were trained and experienced in repetitive type of productive tasks these were artillery operators and they were their responsibility was to aim and load reload aim and fire at targets so it was very precise type of activity and they measured their productivity over twenty one day period of time for each person but they divided them into four groups those about seven hours of sleep per night those who got six hours close about five of those about four hours of sleep per night and this was the results the red line represents those ago seven you notice over twenty one hours the look performance went down over twenty one days performance went down a little bit and that's very indicative of the fact that most sleep researchers that they will tell you that you need on minimum to get by on of seven hours of sleep per night if you want to optimize your performance performance you need a eight and a half hours most people do as adults those who got six hours you can see that they got all their performance went down even more steeply five hours and then four hours of sleep interestingly those who got four hours of sleep per night at during the entire course of these twenty one days their performance was less than twenty percent of those who were getting seven hours of sleep per night so an interest in it the other interesting thing was that they were objectively measured performance but then let him at various intervals they ask glimpse objectively how well they were performing and the Robert getting four hours of sleep so they were performing at the best they had ever performed because the air in the mind that evaluates his ERA it's the most susceptible through the ravages if you will of sleep loss so on sleep that increases the entire brain 's ability decreases I'm sorry another question very good question very good question the most when we look at sleep we look at to at least two different measurements one has the quality of the sleep the other is the length of the sleep and what your question is pointed out is the quality of the sleep in many studies it has been found that if you take for instance let's let's just give one study items I think the comes to mind right now I was of it involved more than three hundred people in the study was a very large study for that kind of for this kind of research they they they all were fully rested when they start of the study that they validated the and they then had asked the group go to sleep go to bed at ten at night and the other half of midnight they did that for six weeks then there was a washout in the middle and they were reversal group so the group that was going to sleep it's ten now wants us better at midnight and vice versa and they looked at them they measured it would be less electron electron 's ethnographic recordings the quality of the sleep that they got those who went to bed at ten and got up at six were much more rested and more productive than those who went to bed at midnight and got up at eight in the morning significantly so and it was the conclusion that the quality of the sleep that they gone even though both groups got eight hours of sleep the quality was better when you went to bed before midnight and let me give you a sample illustration how many of you have had a deadline that you needed the finished early the next morning we all have to so you come home at the end of the day let's assume you have a family of some children see you come home you have a long day but you spend a little time with the kids you eat your evening meal with the kids you have worship with the kids and now they are in bed and you're really still worried about this assignment sermon or whatever for you pastors on you know it has to be accomplished now while you're having worship and right after you eat in the evening or when you're trying to visit with the family you may find that you have almost overwhelming urges to go to sleep you can hardly keep your eyes open but you know you you start working on it now nine nine thirty in the evening and by ten thirty or eleven you're beginning to feel like you're really wide-awake and by midnight you've know you look at it is I am almost done and so you spend another half hour or hour and you get it all done and then you collapse into bed and you wonder why you can't go back to camp ghostly what's happened this that you've gone beyond a physiological window of opportunity that makes it easiest to go to sleep due to the 24-hour cycles of some of the neurotransmitters of the brain produces that help to induce sleep but they not only help to induce sleep they also tend to pattern the quality of the sleep and we sleep in phases and those are about ninety minutes between the deep sleep and that REM sleep which is the lightest sleep the rapid eye movement sleep both of which contribute very unique characteristics to the sleep that we get and those are patterned by these sleep inductance that are altered when we don't go to sleep at the time that physiologically is the best time to go sleep and they impact the quality of sleep that we can honor on I need to move ahead comes time is running out on sleep debt increases the entire brain 's ability to fund decreases that brings entire ability to function most significantly impairing areas of the brain responsible for attention sometimes you see this referred to as the executive functions of the mind attention complex planning complex mental operations and judgment on out were going to move very quickly I want to come to one area that is I think of great interest to Seventh-day Adventist because as seven fabulous we have look down our noses at any one drinks alcohol and drives especially I was doing a seminar in a corporate setting and gave some of this material and somebody raised her hand at the end and they said can you tell me is it better to go to work drunk or sleepy and because I drink I had never thought of that but I want to the literature to find a response or an answer and on British Airways with you two different studies on they were both very good studies but what they found very quickly was that when people are been awake for seventeen hours now seventeen hours is a fairly typical day for a lot of us anytime just think about it think about your day you get up at what time one you retire how many hours he lapses in between they had the performance of arrested person who had had one to two beers and when they had been awake for twenty four hours one day these were arrested to begin with they have the performance of someone who had had three to five years higher than the legal blood-alcohol level in every state in the union and they didn't they didn't tested any further trust you begin to come into the problems of alcohol toxicity in an Australian study they found that sixteen to eighteen hours of continuous wakefulness in healthy adults produce performance impairments comparable to legal intoxication with alcohol at approximately oh eight a blood-alcohol level so well I don't want to make you feel guilty but when you had kids they were going on a long trip you drove all night because the kids slept in you didn't was very smart it made it certainly may not of been very safe begin to see the impact and the importance of rest I'm going to skip the slide I'm sorry because we're running out of time but I have to how do we deal with the tick and make some quick suggestions and I'm in a move to a few concluding slides number one get adequate sleep regularly and on average for optimal cognitive performance it's we need between eight nine hours and the payback on it is that we accomplish more in less time more safely with fewer mistakes no people so I don't have that much time but the reality is like we said were more efficient in the morning but that efficiency remains longer in the day when we are fully rested number two we need to exercise thirty to sixty minutes every day it is impossible to get a good nights sleep a good quality nights sleep without at least thirty minutes of physical activity we talked about the sleep conductance but there's more than that that gives qualitative and when people are sedentary they don't get the quality of sleep even though they get the hours of sleep we need to learn to control our stress stress is a higher-order mental function in many respects it's it's our interpretation of the circumstances that we find ourselves in and how we wrestle with it and it it it adds to the fatigue burden of the body it adds to live to live tiredness we need to eat properly and drink adequate amounts of water those who are in a very interesting several studies again done in the military military has done an enormous amount of research in the area fatigue and sleep loss for what they found was that when soldiers are three percent I'm sorry two percent dehydrated they've already lost ten percent of their cognitive performance but we don't feel the perception of first until were about three percent dehydrated and now you say while ten percent isn't much for normal things in life it isn't but what happens in an emergency situation when we have are called upon to make a very critical decision of any kind we need to avoid caffeinated beverages tobacco and alcohol tobacco influences the quality of sleep out a caffeinated beverages influence a single cup of coffee in a person who has not been using it a dose of caffeine equivalent to one cup of coffee the impact on the quality of the sleep can be measured for almost fifty four hours in the laboratory a single now there's a little bit of tolerances developed and we don't have time to go into that and alcoholism most common sleep aid used in the world you may not use it I hope you don't but it is the most common and it helps people go to sleep but it destroys the quality of the sleep in the last half of the night and they wake up without the rest and then we need the rest of day each week and we need to take an annual vacation and of course if you suspect a sleep disorder all you need to see your physician some very interesting things in the endlessly barrier of resources coming out now one is so the lack of sleep raises influences the interplay between leptin and grow along with your left and was the hormone that was discovered and we thought it would be the pill to help people who are overweight lose weight because it suppresses appetite grown increases appetite no one's been able for the pill that accomplishes that but in the area of sleep research as we are getting less sleep in our society where finding that tiredness or sleep loss decreases the level of leptin and increases the level of growing it I say that right yet and so it is contributing to the problem of obesity lock lock lack of control anyway we were running out of time on so but I conclude where the spiritual application this is not science but you almost story of Jesus and Judas app of Peter sorry remember that Peter said three-time Florida will never do not and then he was awake for most of the night and he denied the Lord three times and in Mark fourteen he said and when he thought about anywhere why did the man who am I realize that sleep is not the only cause but I think it's a very good illustration of what happens you determine they are not going to do something and then when you're not rested you turn around and do exactly that I do believe that there are some spiritual consequences to fatigue I think the first one is that it increases our susceptibility temptation because it affects the frontal lobes on the mind and that's where we do our mental processing to resist temptation on were discovered in move very quickly that this was a very interesting study effort assessment test they took fifty young healthy subjects and they assessed their capacity to solve problems mathematical problems is what they used and they did it before they had so that was any sleep deprivation and then after they has worked that's where they experience sleep deprivation and they found that those who are sleep deprived were found unwilling to work the tasks that required more than automatically performs so they they weren't willing to put forth extra effort even though when they were arrested they had been determined capable of solving that degree of problem but when they were targeted anyone to try when you try it also impacts spiritual vigilance and there's a lot of data on soldiers and vigilance and fatigue in the military research on it diminishes our insight into God 's word and our ability to understand that it lessens our desire to communicate with God blesses our desire to communicate with others as well I have a feeling it's my theory that fatigue is one of the Devils and run around God 's hands on people and get us so busy doing good things we don't get the sleep we need and then we succumb to temptation just just enclosing IIP just a couple years ago I found a most beautiful statement you can find it on the CD-ROM it's on the comprehensive writings of under Smart devices your smart phone some things God instituted the Sabbath as a day of rest to repair natures exhausted energies nor mine can continue day after day without cessation either in business with Texas a mental powers are an acquirement of knowledge without injury there is no night in heaven there's nowhere and wariness of the human machinery I look forward to that day in heaven we shall never be sensible of the tape never need or want repose there's no tyrant performing God 's will we will shall never be where even sounding his praise we shall always have the freshness of the morning but as we are now in this world asks in the here and now with bodies which worry we must pay heed to God 's plans and take repose when we made in us a little pamphlet and it's in one of the manuscript releases I keep needing to change my reference gets this pamphlet oh four three page thirty nine but if you do if you do a search you'll find that and I will change my slide this just reminded me about now I told judges sure one thing about Doctor Berger blinking he and I have it all had many interactions over the years and I've been in his laboratory I watched his research I've watched him doing experiments on people who than ninety six hours without sleep constantly watch them and driving simulators he is a godless man he doesn't believe in God he doesn't believe in creation buddies of wonderful scientist when we met on the plane last December as we were conversing he said to me for a I got to tell you something he said I'm not ready to do anything about but he said you and your people are on to something when it comes to your day of rest he said I want to talk to you more some time about that I wish I was living in Spokane but we will we will do that I still have grandchildren son and Adams and family in Spokane so we go there and he said any time just come to my office love to see you the people began to realize the blessing of the South and and we mustn't discount that blessed day I'll take a question in a moment but I just want to remind you that sleep is as important as diet and exercise only it's easier and I was the slogan of the nationals who noticed the Republicans think they were this media was used by body builders Lien NaCl summoned if you would like to learn more about the NAV Summit please visit www. and I help someone .com I was more green online was www. audio numbers on board


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