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05-The Emerging/Emergent Community Called Atonement

John Jovan Markovic

Presenter

John Jovan Markovic

Professor of Modern European and Church History, Andrews University

Conference

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  • January 3, 2014
    8:45 AM
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in the evening to you when you come in on their behalf when Manny gained even and going I is likely the recessed online at www. DY C when I have one of this year with the those of you who are new here for the first five minor and drop marked originality is it has been losing members the part of the Department of history and science professionally on the historian though I do have training in theology undergraduate level I also have posts on the Drudge Report number of courses and separate the people saw one professes the seminary and some of them are my friends and I have a great interest in theology saw and I also did so to story saw I I can in both areas and I began research on the emergent church back in two thousand six reading the literature on the literature did then critical literature involve them I've read their own literature I have found that the number although conferences meetings I wanted to see life with his people along with their teaching and analyzing currently I am writing a book on the subject and also starting on Tuesday for the first time I'm teaching her a full-fledged course advances adversely on the emerging church from religions Christianity I feel at this time will I go forward and make something inclusions I saw let me share with you one the first session I basically gave an overview of what the emergent church is what the order to thought what it comes wrong for some of the major leaders leaders but that is focused more on the ideas and characteristics of the emergent church and so I pointed out couple is most the most important characteristics this is first of all women speak with emergent church must keep in mind we are not talking about the new denomination in the making the emerging church is a short step from sharks towards church simply means community bots they call themselves the emerging church they are matter-of-fact they are afraid and they are very careful not to become another denomination wise that one for because you have a second characteristic which is again again very important for them and they are ecumenical they believed in the ecumenical unity not only all Christian denominations but also ecumenical unity over all religions and by that very make sure that the knee itself dictates that it just doesn't make sense that they become about the nomination saw an longer virgins if you are in their circles and talk with them the nomination denominational lines are extremely unsorted boxes of the German long talk him him additional lines for the audio relevant to those in makes there is not much difference between the Mets of the assignment area the purpose of the intercept those they believe in the produce unit that so that's one one thing second thing is next thing is most of the people know because of the different style of worship and innovations in the producing worship and Boone that is thought to the approximately two thousand one two thousand two and many people know them and this is what people fall so far and it is something to be offensive because after all worship is very point of component in our Christian life however I came across statements and there are emergence and these are people who take umbrage of whom nor this whole movement well and thereupon fell at the very deeply involved in it I come across statement schools which immerses themselves they say people who think that we are involved in worship primarily about worship this is these people are missing the point we are far far more beyond worship in other words we want to introduce a completely new kind of Christian statements of that sort forced me to go deeper and said okay what are you guys talking about that and see how far what is it that you're trying to introduce and saw of them are actually going gone to the level of geology and even deeper and that is the level worldview the fundamental assumptions that we humans have about life the Olive who want to change all that and in the process of trying to move during their changer and the same time for small merchants also felt they had all the characteristics of both government so when reason when I say that the emergence on changing the thinking of society that is partially true because on the other hand what is happening in society and this is where soldiers move social history or just secular history helps us to understand what is going on in society society as a whole has been moving away from Western civilization Chris John traditional Christianity and modernity starting approximately nineteen fifty selected six signing on in other words the emergent church movement is simply a group of people who are trying to adapt Christianity to social changes which have already taken place whether the emergence of going and will not society in general is moving in that direction and starting in the nineteen sixties approximate and and it is to think it's going in that direction so you have this play all law in other words you can say they are shaping the thinking of society but another wards there read the jumping of the course which is where the galloping in that direction and another thing is that the merchants are very much interested in number of issues like when I asked them what that one time I us there were two priests one was noted by the episcopate imprisoned one who was the at the previous and we're talking about the life divisions that one long as much of the Canada bother when I asked the move don't move on and what our role in poor conditions that you are dealing with and the day of this as well we have three of them one is the goal of the Scripture we are still trying to figure out the deal with what the role of Scripture point in our life that may be surprising to you but it's not about the issue is they don't reject Scripture of course their Christians they believe they will say that Scripture is inspired word of God they believe that Scripture plays a very important role in our lives so in that respect there similar with us there that's what that's not a problem the problem is that they take most of them they are taking the position that Scripture is the inspired word of God however it is not enough to answer all of the questions induces blood resolutions that we have in our society today and therefore we need the more sources than scriptural law and so they are rejecting an kind of pushing inside the principle of sola script order and they will say Bible alone is not enough that becomes problematic now because we hold that Scripture alone is that a positive spiritual toward and an article the positions of the Bible is sufficient for all the issues that we have and I'm talking about the fundamental issues him questions what the Bible is not a poor example example of anybody that the Bible is not interested what all the usual half for you that may be a very important issue but that initial what caught what kind of profession you as a person should have life that is not a fundamental what you may make as such but it's not whether you are a plumber or a position doesn't make a difference you are supposed to live a moral life in either case so that's one example and saw how far is birthed from song or how the nature works well we do with this we humans we can discover that what I threw away Bible deals with fundamental questions of life from fundamental questions of life are issues that we humans either we go on our own and then we usually end up in situations where we ought not able to resolve the inhuman human history shows that from ancient times to the present all the offense on the part of the children's always end up in the bed then we always have problems theater and my conclusion is that the only way out for humanity out of the predicament in which we all are that is a good predictor of that so I will post suffering and eventual death and the only way out is the author that God is giving and I'm talking about the God has revealed himself to Moses the prophets answer the will there are all kinds of God 's humans are able to create gods and humans who make dots and the worst of those guys and got got step in at one point in time is offered another way you said I am the only God and all those guys who created they are not good enough to help Novak not not appropriate so that is a big issue for them and they are struggling with now lies in the big usual while we can go to Houston and point out is that people who from their own backgrounds many of them come from evangelical background but the some of them come from Pentecostal background of the capital leaks some of them even from secular they eventually become Christians and so on and but most of them come from the mainline Protestantism and so of the second issue that they told me I is not surprising that one is a question of homosexuality Bougainville with the issue of homosexuality you cannot do with sexuality in general and that is a very thought to subject very sensitive because our society is moving as you know talking that direction where homosexuality is being interpreted something about the fellow human beings simply have sometimes sexual orientations which cannot be changed willingly and easily because it's a natural it's a part of bets all human beings are now wept whether that's true or not how much it is true or not how much all of that is I will bottle it is important to have been the one which disliked the surprisingly and that is they mentioned the supervision that we are dealing with is questionable and that is and then I more as I read the talk with them I discovered yes it is an important initial and it should not surprise those because after all atonement is understanding the phone and then applying them to life and what you say about it how do you know that is very important but interesting thing is that the atonement as additional subtopic is also one of the most important topics of Boras Seventh-day Adventist the very raison d'être the reason of existence of the Seventh-day Adventist hangs on the understanding of this document sent eighteen forty four the so-called investigative judgment door indicated judgment already one of it is why we exist and so it is very important there so that we also need to address and maybe of this now gives us a platform to look into this additions so I want to set the day I want to focus on those I want to share with you how they are struggling with this issue and how they are what kind of lenses that are coming up with and so I will read some of the slides and uncle problems prevent threatened with the stresses possible and then moreover the moon will block the last session I will try to wrap up most of this review is being to how we move some of the Avenue this in this conference the reduced Christianity and then now share with you some other interesting things about them and though I will try to give as much style leave as much time as possible for questions and answers Phyllis they call it her all by the way I'm sorry I began talking and I need to pray dear father we are now beginning of important description but we need your help I need your help so please been present with your Holy Spirit to help the students that we thank you for revealing yourself to us thank you for able available life in this opportunity as we can talk about this issue 's we ask and we thank Jesus that I'm after all without Jesus and Holy Spirit and the log manager Phyllis tickle in her recent book titled emergence Christianity which just involved in September two thousand twelve she says for emergence Christians there is fun I'm not that unavoidable question as well now this is already on page one ninety seven and by the way let us share with you Phyllis think all is elderly lady very fine lady well educated and work for Christian publishers for many years and she wrote so far I believe deal for books I is the emergence and she is numbered to herself an associate is well-respected and well received by the emergence of papers colors of different shapes driven those a lot of of because even in longer virgins there are different they like to quote do you know as they try to discuss about themselves out there they are so far about three or four different studies on longer merchants because they themselves are different factions and so I don't like to look at them as different screens I like to use their own language and scripting the very context of the theology and what I'm saying is some of them have emerged much further than the others so Phyllis Bickle has emerged quite well she is deep into it and she is but she is welcome and received by old the authors and that tells you in itself that she knows what she's talking about benches listen to so this is what you says what emerges Christians that is another unavoidable questions as well and it is the victims order to please the board of the most divisive of them all that's those who call today's visitors with Sears emergence Christianity like all the previous community owns that have come into being must struggle with vehicle or more properly with the nature of the atonement now more than ever Scott McKnight is another well-known theologian published over two dozen notebooks is known and she is also event was himself as emergent she is somewhat disagreed with the well known Brian McLaren a him across the night seems to me is trying to save the emerging church movement from Brian McLaren because Brian McLaren is has emerged even further Brian McLaren is right now pretty much Mister and Scott McKnight is not yet there if she continues the path of the two goals sooner or later he'll is that the use of your bungalow that or maybe you will reconsider the path which is going and thinking and eventually probably come back to write Christian article pica now more than ever in the history of mankind the fullness of atonement is needed to enter very interesting phrasing what is he saying the fullness of atonement is needed that is in his book called a community called a phone at the emergence of uncomfortable with traditional doctrines of bus they tried to be defined the atonement theories some of them ridicule and dismiss these theaters altogether so they are different opinions about the very fact that I say there have struggled with it that means that there are different opinions and that this they are not necessarily addressing the real issues this is my conclusion development of the atonement and you'll see what I mean by that it seems that for the most part today I've been missing the point or beating the strawman or walking I'm into and that metaphorically speaking this situation reminds me of a starving person solving the hot potato although it is burning his hands he is not willing to drop the Fuji knows he needs to eat to survive since the second century are dozens of theaters of appointment have into existence and I I don't know how much you know about it I just bringing out there about a dozen of them by the end even for something by some accounts even more than those but I'm bringing up the five most important ones and zeros that is the ransom theory of atonement the satisfaction to the penal substitution theory the moral influence Andrew Christian Victor versus Victor theory these are the most notable and the most acceptable the literature on atonement published now let me just as briefly point out to those for the sacral bone switch to this one just visit the value that ends in theory this is the earliest one and it is goes back to some of the church fathers of the point where hero come back together I is all credited to origin to see how far it goes back to the end of the beginning of the third century Rick up actuation theory that some of the Verizon satisfaction theories about eleven the beginning of 12th-century town syllable February is the one who came up with that one of them Thomas Aquinas in the way you defined that then we have the penal substitution this theory was formulated in the sixteenth century by the performance we improved on on since the him not just the simple limits and Allison deer and some still resounded too much as a commercial transaction the penal substitution theory says that Jesus Christ died in men's blaze they ate human sins upon himself the bearing of human sin stakes the punishment but sets the believer free from the penal demands of the law of God and the righteousness of the law and the holiness of God the satisfied with his substitution problem with that is though it is an improvement that Julie does not fully explain what will happen to send and say to him and by the way here when now let me say something about the same field sake there are some of these some of your virgins who have a problem with the existence of sick Brian McLaren for example denies the existence of sick business expect a certain of when I attended the meeting at the all the currently that this was a convention and look to be made two thousand ten and the type of the emergence Christianity and I wanted to go there care of silk or whether they going to talk about the emergence Christianity and the fourth day presentations I am that there were lecturers workshops going kind of one of the other but they told us they put a vase beside the large vase and a likable and they asked us if you have any questions this droppable question the right of women and on Sunday on the people that bought a couple of hours as we are about to depart then we will chose questions from cold what is private lands of the well I wrote a question and I have someone now paraphrasing my question with something like this the Bible clearly tells us that there is Satan or in popular low language devil who exists with them to Jesus we have safe and cool cause problems with Joel we talk about the Bible talks about serpent at the field knowledge and we believe all so Bible does talk about a person is six eight as a person how does this person say time fit into your theology that you are presenting here to us and the Lord behold on Sunday the first question the very pullouts was my question and of course the undersigned nobody signs the names of people I recognize my own question and I was very much interested in what they say about it and of course they pulled out and say well we will start now questions and answers with the question that a lot of people are asking and this is one of the questions that we need to address and so they start reading the it's okay this is it that's what I want to hear I like your legumes regional drawer to the first work and put about five six minutes basically responded she denied the existence of Satan there is no Satan Satan is simply part of imagination or Christian and Christian my him until now second he wanted to add something in which interesting requirements of the following not only did he denied the existence since and if you said something Christians created Satan and especially those Christians who disagree with the author and they create Satan devil in order to demonize the authors that they don't like the law saw we are dealing with some of these people now live Richard drawer now Mitchell drawers full blood Mystic Maclaren is going in the direction they're very working clothes ready for number of years and what I'm suspecting is not yesterday I told you about that we Seventh-day Adventists I don't think with Williams that Mrs. is a bit as I began to going deep into her and I mean by that but saying that I mean by learning about it seeing about I don't dare try and get I don't want to drive in one of the other but what I'm learning and seeing we are talking about completely different understanding of reality and in that worldview of the mystics if you know how they see all of this man sick of those of that the concert that there is a safe as a person of ratholing is God doesn't fit and that's why they've simply don't see it shall be for an overall days so I will come back to people subscriptions is more valuable as theory is an older one you probably heard of that one a and the open is the wrong Christos Victor is also important this is a much more modern dear that came into being now let me point out to all these theaters they have the most difficult time with the penal substitution theory and virtually all of the emergence of the object that you now the one that they have the easiest time that they like the most is the moral influence the buyer can already if you know anything about this different to yours you can see what's happening here they feel very comfortable with more implicit theory because this of this theory is kind of leans in that direction where God 's law got this except a with them have to fear of God whereas the penal substitution theory is much more difficult than we have here to raffle God God was punishing the innocent for the fifty one and the emergence of very much influenced by the idea all they have a hard time accepting the idea that gone himself is destroying they cannot imagine that God can be found using the term in order to make a point that got to do violence I'm not than I do believe that God is violent now how why God destroys but God does destroy the other examples where Sodom and Gomorrah was destroyed the boreal world destroyed the second coming ripple will be destroyed God does at so but then well I'm gone this long the argument is basically that God is such a great law that we humans cannot understand that law that love was be on our comprehension and eventually and this is what they are up in ideas comes into the picture and I will come to work in a few minutes that eventually will remember yesterday when I said that Christ's task is to take the entire creation the Omega point the grass the impact of the words the entire pipe to really believe that the entire that means the entire creation will become at one point in the distant future one with the Omega point that is something that blog Universalists believe that eventually every one will be saved now when you close that the new estimates are you telling me that even people like shipment will consider now medical that they don't dare going back because his GDP cases of that idea but there are fueled then who are saying why are we afraid to stand up and say that God will say at the so some of them are daring to say this event is the list of the hard time accepting and they like to believe that God will save everyone well that is contrary to Scripture unless everybody repents is wrong but we read the Scripture those fellows that most likely according to Scripture but that was was the keep moving here are all of those then different people within the different ideas but all of them are stressing that the phone is important for the people skate shop in British author and popular emergent thinker ignited the huge controversy is not which is remarked that the cost is in the form will possibly child abuse issues that are on but somebody else use that term before and I don't have funds to purchase the awareness that Brown's comments book use that the work is like to say is that atonement theory is wrong like a cosmic child abuse controversy created the by this use of this style started the whole Jesus debate this issue chalk however was not the first and the only one to use the space Brian McLaren also in his book what is the book the story we find ourselves futile the three volumes exclude old days the story would find themselves which is basically like a novel and he created characters and this characters talk among themselves and of course that novel is expressing caught as idea join the dialogue between fictitious characters we have a Carol and we also have carry general is a traditional Christian who subscribes to pedal substitution theory and carry contemporary seeker and the co-op the client has Kerry responds to Carol with quote course fosters him God wants to forgive us why doesn't he does the issue that idea and you hear that a lot of time a lot of the was brought this one superhero 's wife uses of when people make statement like that you can see them either to these people don't understand what is forgiveness what does mercy what a disgrace how God deals with sent visits missing the point is still don't get it it's not just one new man of your vehicle so forget how does how does punishing an innocent person make things better that just sounds like one more injustice in the cosmic equation it sounds like divine child abuse and lot of people they are a lot of people out there who would work falling for the Serbia and they are saying what God is gone this is not just this one so they're trying please explain what is the meaning or what happened across Ellen Jones the Dean emeritus of Grace Cathedral in San Francisco and even more hostile language first of the penal substitution is a wild thought and Robert Daly and says his author professor of religious and theological theology at Boston College says the following this is the most helpful book on the atonement to appear in modern times while the incrimination is an essential Christian idea the atonement is not this is from the color excuse recommending the book is problems with phone not mean this idea the atonement is not off Scott now let me just say something about Scott McKnight is less critical and I his book of community called atonement a Waldenbooks victim by a board emergence and trying to figure out about the atonement I they are Scott McKnight 's theory which is a new theory and subversion theory I think is the best one now I have that statement there the best because not because I was when I see is the best it's because I subscribe to but is the best in terms of being particularly and it is quite well put together and my scheme and but what is interesting is she calls that atonement is praxis and to make the story short let me get going here because but before with Duncan McKnight 's atonement is praxis do we need to get to observe what the emergence worldviews and saw I will those of partial discussion on it today and tomorrow I will elaborate to more on this because I think it is very important for us to when it comes to the atonement theory and that is I thought yes they're all about that they are the synonymous use worldview so those of you were for the first time here you'll probably want to struggle here those of you who were here you probably recall over and then put together here the jazz that give they are the savant is very important individual to people know about him but if your number into emergency will know about him much more finally okay with this gives that the phenomenon of men this is the most influential book on it than by fear that they are the Shabbat which he completed before his attempt and friends if the voices but it was published out only after his death in nineteen fifty five that book phenomenon of men is one of the most well know HarperCollins recently the server it all by one hundred most important than some spirituality phenomenon of mankind 's number one so it is well about a lot of people read it and and I converted some interesting story about it now let me just point out this update Danny's Dale unbolted academic E professor view I believe it teaches University of victim I mean his book identifies they are this is not directly connected with emergent movement and also with the second bug comes this is something that I want to show and I will tell you more about it in greater detail tomorrow you see that this line you have the upper half in the lower half okay point out that I'm sort story will do that exactly the UCD offer the upper one is I typed photographically to people so they can see the upper one is at the distal biblical world look at just this you we have the creation and the green color is representing the kingdom of God and that is rolled without sin that's how when I say picking little guy they believe that's the world without sent to me but with formal vitamin E we have a world between Paul and flawed then we have an old approximately saw my loved one a half thousand years their real mother when we have the addresses we have the giving of the Colorado we have exiled in Jesus incarnation false we have an older couple thousand years brings us to our kinds here and we have eighteen forty four fifty seventeen is the process and information deleted two thousand fifteen okay now I've updated the post to obtain and then we believe about Jesus second coming again historically been and then we have these a thousand years of this switches same study have unbuttoned down undo spur all of them but to accept Satan and his people as its cargo nothing is going on into a spare and then we have after this thousand dollars we have a new Jerusalem coming down with the Saints we have a small paradigm is to get that color their that's a small pair of time when the week will be resurrected and activities will go on until finally Satan and the wicked people decided they would take the city and then comes the destruction and he does only that that we have the astonishment to the creation and we have the establishment of paternal kingdom of God for that is not suitable this is not now the kingdom of God is a concept of course a plan to recover humanity and your français quickfix who deceived Adam and Eve that was already set right there in the garden of Eden when God made that promise if you will put enmity between the seed of the woman and the seed and between said and so that's already like like a plan is put right here right there God has a plan how you will do it and then we have a lot of people say that what happened in the cross model focuses it will say this will happen across a sentence the one thing missing the point what is the risk of their wills himself and of course something is done and what is done is that the legal so-called legal patient victory was won so as the cross after the cross Satan knows that she is destiny is to bring there is no there is no way that Satan will give out on walking his dog so that's an older further the instrument I mean that there's some improvements of further for approval or consisted from the seven lakh towards the that Jesus assures us that the Kindle God will come here so when Jesus says make statements the kingdom of God is here the kingdom of God is at hand and he tells us a lot of parables he says the kingdom of God is life lot of December a lot of these people they are saying all Christ inaugurated the kingdom when he came Donald Christman is the kingdom of God is share because he is here and when he's around if you are with him the kingdom of God is there but it's not actual actualized yet and saw then we have more things need to be done and then comes Liz destruction and the creation that you have in the bottom it will clear the bottom this is the obvious worldview this is how it businesses with emergence the especially those with deep into it and this is what McKnight also seats based in the green color of their and that is the stage called the disk system Genesis that means since Christ incriminated himself and he is how leaving the higher creation the Omega point I do see now according to them we do live in the capable these things the kingdom of God and so when they speak all that the making of the kingdom of God they would say we Christians have given a pass to actualize this kingdom of God because Christ inaugurated that we are part of and we are now Google work and this continues on two goals into that unit with the Omega point and so that is what explains their heavy emphasis on social activism so what our friend but tonight is committed to the principle of emergent visit to the construction is Scott McKnight things not what he calls one-sided view of his opponent gives those that our generation is a higher open old-fashioned atonement theology that does not make a difference of an old bus theology that is for individual spiritual formation but not for a crazy over formation water pollution and an old-fashioned appointment theology is not the next humans with humans what is essential for us to notice is that according to McKnight this generation believes atonement ought to make a difference in here and now he has in their cute resumes the contemporary generation those appointments work of the atonement theories we inherited work what is atonement all about the gift on the doctors bring about reconciliation although this question is up to be taken seriously Belmont to enlarge while Oracle because you asked this question people know the absence of rhetorical questions they don't say much but denied and that like-minded states in union of like-minded states in unison to all these questions with resounding no CNN now is what McKnight believes and in our pursuit of reconciliation he argues how we frame the phone will make all the difference in the world and I agree with yes how we frame our opponents will make a difference in the world except that he is springing up in the nonbiblical way that the problem in question is additional theaters of atonement insinuating that as such they serve to keep all group the same and the others up according to look like Jesus vision unfoldment that relate vintages through the atonement of Jesus speak so what got them to work will accomplish for humanity atonement creates the kingdom of God includes McKnight that God 's event the work will be accomplished through the atonement is what traditional Christians would say as well but that does not look like once they will be forgiven to be a phone to be reconciled synonymous expressions is to be granted the mission to become a reciprocal performer of the same don't forget to work atonement then can be an agent of a conciliar dust atonement is not just something done to us and for us it is something we participate in in this world in here and now is not just something done but something that is being done and something we do as we join God in the new Subic forgiveness atonement and conciliation synonymous with according to all the theaters are begin with the view all with how we've knew would find sent after having cited several theologians of the subject of sin but my includes the following sin is hyper relational or moved to relational borrowing concepts from Annenberg and Gruner where the former says okay let me skip all that is spoken of this is interesting where the foreman says sin is called the universal failure to achieve our human destiny through seek out the redefinition of what sin is what I call without going and okay destiny and the laughter that seen in the Bible is the choice of local court the long or to be free to going dependent and to achieve like God absolute freedom and this is a very interesting language not but knife concludes that quote to pursue absolute freedom in all directions settlers the icon now he uses a different firm for human beings it likes that he liked things is I don't create some the icon from God from authors from the world and therefore from the self CVA or seven icons the menus themselves we have already learned that sin is hyper relational noun with knife sets sights the high preparation of relational theory which points out the system and make corruption since Malcolm is saying is correct I see uses the crack instead of sinful also you and I we are cracked icons is I will send for human beings so I said is correct I was call and late into clusters all communities date through in the relationships between themselves create systemic corruption which needs to be amended and when we define sin in this manner says McKnight we can easily see that God 's redemptive work is to work against that systemic corruption than other wards to restore cracked eyeglasses dental on track items about the work it off so what if the monster who is for the following Jesus justice is not confined by the Magna Carta not just that find this very fascinating I look at it he says justice social justice is not to be defined by Magna Carta U.S. Constitution conscript the cortical impairment do any other social formation of wall we need those Christians to recover what we think the Bible says Justice Rodriguez another real questions that says McKnight is not what these just but cools just so in God 's intent is a Société of justice that in itself tells us that society created by loving God is designed to bring justice which in turn means that the via cloning work of God is a crazy obvious shape out when she said this not by Magna Carta the U.S. Constitution know that but he says the atoning work should be such a crazy of you sick was talking about the church so social justice and procedures is not what is just but was just so Sosa where is according to McKnight is defined by the church what took emergency room but emergence of this going where you see here how we are moving we're going back and the one interesting thing is that they do not value of the other day when I talk about the second Vatican Council Congo United States John I believe is less famous markets is skeptical sorry well-known Catholic cardinal whistle so interested in pursuing and maintaining the separation of church and skirt she is voice was not given room the Vatican church does not rule does not appreciate this democratic West the Republican idea that these in the United States the separation of church and state by this statement of McKnight is giving us here might does not appreciate the separation the crazy of you sick the church is supposed to tell you what injustice Seattle like that society that comes soon interesting of these guys are moving in that direction in other words with my disclosing for his kingdom of God shaped and defined by the claims of the phone this is what we are facing okay in my opinion atonement the practices of good men by Ms. specify this sort will continue tomorrow with this in other words in fact since that means what you say you will is present we aren't responsible for carrying out the appointment to the conciliation among those cells and it is actually what we do that is way way from the Scriptures what I understand is that appointment is what God does for us let me just give you one from what I will elaborate on this because I think we Seventh-day Adventists we have to step in this is a platform would we have to make it clear the Philistines for almost two thousand years not them for five hundred years gap with the church in general for almost about seventeen centuries there is a reason why this happened the church folk was when they talk about the atonement they focus only what happened at the cross what I find among all of this foam interiors talk about massive satisfaction funerals of the Jewish world it was I am all about they focus on what happened in the focus in this statement so that is the atonement doctrine was while I am saying convincingly the minute when we talk about the day of atonement than what happened on the day of book once a year when the high priest was doing in the whole of it is in the sanctuary interesting thing that what was happening on that particular day does not start at an end the altar of the burnt offering that is the day this from your butt on the day of atonement we have a ritual that is going into the holy place most holy place and coming out and sending the other key go outside all that is the doctrine of a call in other words what the prompt distance when they talk about the Dale Quixote of atonement they are replacing with the our sanctuary Saul there is a serpent of the with bring this into to their attention I still listen guys to talk about the date of appointment we have to talk about actually all of the appeal is the symbolism what happened on that particular day and therefore when you look at the activities of that particular videos so-called the day of atonement then we see that there is way way more what happens than just what happened across yes it is true with Jesus has done of the cross that is as far as I am concerned as individual and you I'm sick I don't have to worry about Christ saves me at the cross but God has to deal with sin and switching which is way way more red beyond my own personal salvation God has the bill would soon God has to save the universe God has to get rid of that problem solve that is only after reacting to a visit we have to go more forceful two people can understand what was going on sorry guys but I've been out but we will yes and will address one of visitors was the one of four o'clock I will also talk about it but Michael I can stay here to talk I don't mind but many of you have someone else to go well of course okay down the salon uses the term Omega point obviously he picks it up from the script that's up from the Bible and in the minds of Christians is a meadow where they come from all make use of your first because Jesus Royce I am often the maggots all euros the omega of use that I think I don't think that they are the salon she didn't even know about this omega apostasy and saw now make up lost the city automate Garden Valley on that knowledge we are reminded by recall words book deal may govern value and now see color is talking about what Bellinger liked it for this future omega Valium and I'll ensure wide use that phrase because she was discussing the all John Kellogg and what John Callow was involved he labeled Chile but baptism all that we may go see his as I was shown within computer there will be much greater apostasy of this kind of nature and that's what you set and and now she's saying while because this is all quite and that's in the future and shape puts that in the context of the last basil that the last limits of mega laser that items see the connection between the Ottoman with Ellen G White says it's coincidental because the same phase am a guy we older number one automaker is Jesus he says I will make up but Jesus did not mean I am the apostasy of mega key it is now the last apostasy because of the lack of the less likely to be called so on you can say yes or talk to not use the opulence of the others of correctional God I first the wall I don't know much about the world browser I don't like to discuss Adventists what that means is I this figure would especially when you'll begin to pinpoint the reason for that is first of all I have to get to know what one project is all details wanted to know before I can make the state the judgment I am fully know where you have be careful here number one we have a big problem in the business unit Jesus said trades for our unit and I think we've this conservative liberal divisions and all that I don't like that the devil one stool this unites with good very careful I have to know what I know some of the principle of the people who are involved we have this one place worship event is inversely and I went to couple times to see whether the and I can tell you there is that I have not seen anything that I can say well this is evil this is long but I have seen sort of fun if I make kind of like theology they can get from the likely so I what I'm afraid of what is happening may be that some of our people were very much interested in bringing the young people in church I kind of relaxing intentionally bring this new innovation in the worship like to make it interesting though this thing though this things okay and so they are imitating the emergence emergent worship and I have sale for example when emergence hole that they don't like the seating like this they said this is the form of this is like a tip let's move it put it in the circle out what's wrong with that you can chose any way you want to talk to worship nine o'clock or eleven o'clock this is not more releases this is not a problem they put a candle will what's wrong with account I have cameras in the house of the workout was that of electric like it's okay but when they begin to him something you still need me and I can see how went on this whimsical worshiping nature or spirit of the nature or something like all that I was there when you hold on guys for example if they would bring the Eucharist in his menu Virgil still was there when Galway and they would say let's go Lebanon prayer labyrinth I I would say it may resume his voice once I found out that some of our students into small prayer groups of doing that is the way the that's not only don't deliver and they stopped so I would be very carefully and I don't want to throw stones at my brothers who are doing something before I go with them to and sometimes we accuse each other without really knowing what we do for example spiritual formation and the University and the seminary received a lot of flak because of that court spiritual formation which they now change the title well I can save probably some more than doubled without the adopted the term years ago now realization that wait a minute without a step backward but the fact that they are using that there with Whitney teaching actually spiritual formation maybe some of the pictures I don't know I don't go there but the point is if I can win people to wake up and go step backwards I'm happy but if I would see that something 's happened the new stand up so I'm careful I don't want to live in all of the I have but we have yes between two people that's not the cure but we have to be careful not to begin to charge anything before because a lot of these people and especially comes from the conservative side will this be reported using the other liberals without really knowing what's out so I would advise you guys in the conservative brother watchdog that you do not be too judgmental images people without knowing what's happening and you guys in the lab you better be careful that you do not all people also DVD to the left or the right the preserve and by the way that they point out the liberals love to BBQ of the group to conduct was an ally because the conservatism on how to respond to be completed I've seen and they admit that they a lot because they enjoyed and I and I said this is not right Satan is dragging this into the earlier from Solzhenitsyn so awake often be reasonable because they are in the church my friends all thousandths and this is what I heard from emergence my goodness that if they preach and a St. Paul tells us that there are people who are apostles they are administrators their profits there preaches that evangelists not think about now what personality is are these different categories and evangelism by very nature would be to our people who are always looking for ways how to reach people were not Christians and they will then they are like a different tier data on their and they will experiment with things in order tool somehow evangelize what profits the problem by making sure people were sitting in the back and they are pointing down to see you guys are doing is wrong you guys are doing this wrong we need both administrators by nature and people don't understand much theology there would be no administrator and we have to be careful when we little different things and how we relate to each other God never made any one of us everything I cannot be a prophet and eventually some administrator creature memory I cannot you cannot you cannot but God made you eventually subpoena preacher human administrator in the profitable that that's how it works so we have to be careful and I I of course I am keeping my eyes open I see something I spend up with the right amount are in the list goes this with your present going software to lead in that direction and I see some students or students of making changes we have a lot of things going on on campus but the same time students are learning some of them don't they just give going so well known their choice the rights of the God 's choice this is the a will by and on I will will him to an in and in and we had to be very well phase Bloomington and also enjoy what they're brought we have to not and we have such a great gift the spirit of prophecy but because she gives us so much and the most important of the greatest gifts in recent episodes that the great descriptive felons what gave is not helpless argument go back to the Scripture that is the great contributions to write the great nothing else to set goals for the number can you imagine no longer prop any drop and by the way who tells you I'm the profit this is the new religion it will close its suspicion is that this is a post drop is only the prophet tells you go back to the word of God 's and that's great if we have a great gifting will correct between Moscow Scripture because we will we are coming into the times when that's the only thing to save us but on the other hand the world will look at us and say you guys are you guys are all on an old fasten all the time and we will be ridiculed and that will build more special to stand up for something that will be revealed by the world facilities this law that was not how well that's an emergent idea that this is done there is no place for I mean the birds as they rejected the doctrine of hell they don't all know the tool and words on the doesn't believe that there is such thing as that's what evangelical Protestants both polite the Baltimore because of an traditional Protestants argue for the existence of hell that the there is hell okay and now many traditional capital Excel problem without but in the feed the scope of theology and worldview hell does it make any sense of doctrinal help soul and finances both says there is no hell you can but you can see him immediately what's going on that's magnets again that sense though about the same it's exactly that regarded the Bible belt would be made across the board that all is the balancing manual law of course you know I remember the story of the five own versus the role asleep while what is happening right now it is all kind of quiet but yes people don't read the Bible of their people who believe the Bible if I were to tell you what is going on outside of the Adventist circles it would surprise that a lot of people all their work reading the Bible and study and this emergent church this movement this uses the Kozinski for raising bishops and they are people of asking questions what is going on and this idea the Bible is not enough that a lot of Christians out there who segued about Bible is enough and so they are reading they are studying they are not entering into our church the question is why about that well we probably some book of those sources say why aren't people coming to us because maybe people perceive as strongly and maybe it is possible therefore because they are on the span but maybe it's our fault because we have not projected that I and as long as we fight and argue among themselves what the world is a good rubbing her to bed there are responsibilities those problems we have to address ourselves but at the same time there is a lot of things are going on out there and one of these days it will be just be a shift C Haskell from here going there and the other half going this but by then it will be already the lightweight for so long a son serving the the hello will remember a phrase all members my friend now we're talking about methods of evangelism is how do you tell the others I don't have to tell people listen number seven there will have felt as long as long as a talent at the design when I go to professional meetings and people ask me because they know it is supposed to little later they find out and they has over your Christian Journal article I think about the knowledge of a tunnel well I am and I'm not in that throw it off as a loyal man and what either one or not crazy you have to use you have to tell among some of the school will talk with people raise issues listen to them and then begin to address their questions and then telling the truth and they will slowly figure out who we are then they will ask away about why you so when I tell him I'm not that I don't like development and they say what would you mean I solicit this is one of the if I were to tell you yes I have him who is a good you would put me the mental box so what you think Christian news and because maybe you'll note that Christians are people like Presbyterians Baptists and then you think is that their Baptist account and I'm not and if I tell you I'm not a Christian then I'll be lying this is what I allow a development that is what I believe so given the label yet though Medvedev but I believe that I believe this and this and this abyss of this and is always a pound the pillows though I believe the recent creation of the second coming I believe the thoughts of Sabbath 's seven day law again the viewpoint of the main night this alone I never heard about well now that's what I have now is a new box geochemist questionable methodology how do you talk to people that it's like that my advice to you is we live in the world the best approaches this list and see what the problem some people have problems with disease and some people homosexuality some people have problems with the way churches and administered some people occur a lot of people were ostracized they're not accepted in one of the basic fundamental needs of every human being is to be accepted to be appreciate we live in a world which it seems like it's a web of relationships New Zealand's of human beings the juvenile shoulders with on daily basis or long though long bid on jobs that I work very hard think that there was a sick they are sick old things and then listened to and him undress those are that they follow that and when we like to fast away kit is the book is the book for non-smoking wrongdoing books around but the problem is that we always take shortcuts it's easy it's easier for me to give him the dollar slot drop instead of going and helping poor people so we not talking wrong giving him the bows log but in other words of the same listen to people help them talk address and people when they recognize that you care and they like it when you tell among the seven that is their blood and practical cares about the label we developed a long time and I'm studying emergent Church of I forget regardless of whether and when they emergence of calling another thing that I do that with regard emergence of calling base say this is what they say we won out and think Christian now problem is that they are looking in the wrong places for so now the question for me the guy poses are we seven-day absences open the Christian ought out and pick up social they quote evolution three the message development ships are a conclusive structure to our RSS I him for maybe one of those someone will call them tomorrow and then I bought a meeting will have some fun with him will will dismiss this was included when he went to be supporting ministry of the sentence he added he states he seems I is young benighted I would be in place for Christians to download the pictures other resources like this please visit us I am in family income wastes even when I are you a

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