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Logo of GYC 2013: Before Men and Angels

05-Part 2: Friends and Foes, Statements and Replies

Michael Younker

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Michael Younker

Managing Editor, Journal of the Adventist Theological Society

Conference

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  • January 3, 2014
    8:45 AM
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for you you make a movie where the women he'd demand is going I wanted to like this visit us online at www. delay seamen have ever seen advice from a counselor or a friend is someone that you should trust normally would trust and that their kind responses I really do know what's going on I know there is no doubt about it I've been told that many of the Holy Spirit is whispered in my ear I know what's going on in your life there's no doubt yes and yes you are your affirming misses out on this this is certainly can be one way that well-meaning elders you know deacons elders in the church might come to you those who has seem to have experience and wisdom and another and are willing to lean heavily on that reputation is senior counselors as a dryness here I really know what's going on when you joke laden underlaying on thick that's my point Eliphaz lays it on what I would call elder elderly thickness and I really know what's going on Job you needed to admit your error because of this inner insight that I had and then in the second division Eliphaz Job chapter five he simply notes summarizing goes on to suggest that you look at what relevant of where I got it surely you're just following basic common sense logic Job you can't play games with God you know this is a seniority sediment fence special suffering of yours and that remember God has all knowledge and power so clearly whether it is through my insides or through just your own reasoning just recognize the inevitable Job you are suffered because of your sin you are suffering because of what you have done that is why you are in the circumstances that you are Arthur God has all knowledge and power and remember that none as important to note that the friends recognize that God is all knowledge and power because that will be using this return to later on so there's three basic questions are starting not three but here there's a basic question I would ask you is this biblical reasoning is a sound like as I said common sense good biblical reasoning and well the answer is of course a partial yes you can definitely find biblical support be not deceived God is not mocked for whatsoever a man so if that shall he also reap this is definitely biblical thinking that has been applied to show you know you are suffering a special way and then there's clearly no cause-and-effect common sense now Orthodox thinking Orthodox theology there's got to be a reason Job that is why you are suffering so but of course I had a little sort of their trust there may be more to the picture than simply cause-and-effect involved in the situation but it is a very strong remember either the whole purpose of bad starting the way that I did was to exclude the prelude to cut out to be getting the prologue to cut out what we know to leave Job and his friends where they were without any special insights and really understand how you might really grapple with so your Dennis jokes three friends to his wife and their theology Joe's reply in that chapter six is oh that my vexation were weighed and all my calamity laid in the balances for then it would be heavier than the sand of the sea therefore my words have been indeed rationed history referencing back to his beginning you know that I wish I could die definitely I have begun to note question God definitely I don't know what God is doing and so Job acknowledges that he has been strong and emotional in his language is no doubt the Job I noticed that the note he is confused I did miss that is speaking very strongly but the summarized the viewer where I am you'd understand my style was so terrible that it gives me a justified good reason to complain continuing out to the responses then again I cannot read them all and are highly poetic language it is worth trying to actually sit through an regio by a long afternoon to try and reflect on how they may reason his room in their poetic style of a bill that the old one remember is more blunt and straightforward Joe how long we say such things your words right posturing when does God pervert justice does the Almighty pervert what is right when your children sinned against him he gave them over to the penalty of their sin remember how I guess you had mentioned that the children would come back into playing member they died they been ended that the first day of his suffering and his friends in their very considerate way to bring that to his mind help their dry to really know Poe can imagine if you suffered a loss of a family member and then you are suffering yourself you know due to other related new circumstances and your friend comes to assess your luck your family died because of their sin and now you and your on your near-death bed yourself and you're going to die to it you don't take this opportunity to repent if you don't take this this chance you're going to end with a video how would that come across my goodness w00t that is status rough rough language but if you will look to God and lead with the Almighty if you are QR and upright even now he will rouse himself on your behalf and restore you to your rightful place this is a temptation my friends this is a temptation understand understanding the stories you do business this is definitely a very strong appeal for Job two changes to and think the currently about what is happening and the circumstances definitely warranted circumstances definitely would seem warranted to the other wing of the Council of the elders has come down from the church and this is what they say they all claim to know and believe about God they all know a claim in her insight think through their reasoning is an spiral stronger and stronger they are telling Job that they know what's going on and giving him the path towards redemption there offering him a ticket to what they believe will restore him but Joe maintains this is from a little bit earlier but is his tone remains teach me and I would be silent and I will be silent made me understand how I have an error how forceful are honest words you've been honest with me but what does reproof from you reprove what is your reproof reprove their eye I can admit of nothing I can admit of nothing yes the suffering appears to be special it appears to be singularly no isolated and you know to me and it appears that it has come to define no definitely through divine something divine participation somehow I but you know what is your reproof reprove before this is God that we all are and are maintaining a belief in I I know of nothing in the night no nothing that would warrant this and as we'll know later Job doesn't claim absolute lifetime perfection of any sort but he is saying I know I have I have lived a life of integrity to myself when I have made mistakes I have the hard drive always repented of them you know us as soon as I became aware of and there is there is nothing in me that seems to work what is going on this is too extreme this is not that this is not fair this is not just according to all measures of you know how justice should work what is your reproof reproved there is nothing in the UK says psych I cannot I cannot hear his him himself in on why me why me know you guys are all lecturing me you Wagner fingers that I I I cannot see it I cannot see what you are asking me to do so far as argument just to jump ahead a little bit today all dictator turns in their powerful poetic ways but to will turn affected the sequence of this one chapter twenty comes after one jokes of the strongest self-defense is and will come back to that later but that so far continues to hammer him time after time you again mistake single goes on Toronto how long their conversations took place and what else you would other words management shared in there in their discussions with each other there is no speeches but so far continue signal imagine this is a citizen later later argument just going to so far Slater the talks but you just got it continues to spiral and spirally just escalates escalates escalates insofar describes the widget is doing things that are clearly apparent evil comes out into the open obviously so far suggests that because Job 's gone through this time of torment with these awful boils breaking out upon them is evident in his evil two is coming out into the open as he shares in Job twenty hundred darkness is hid up for the wicked that is their treasure the heavens will reveal his iniquity there is no doubt that that the wicked will not be able to hide what they have done in the earth will rise up against the wicked ones this is the wicked man's portion from God the heritage decreed for him by God this is again after Job is made multiple at this point already more than one self-defense saying I'd I just don't see it in me I don't see anything worthy of what is happening and so far hammers and this is what you are in here you know what you are so suffering through what you are experiencing is the wicked man's portion don't think that this obvious conclusion that is again is a sample of the so far as arguments so I want to again put together the three friends theology and note that I think one of the benefits of this book is indeed not only to note the discussion of its great central theme found in the beginning chapters one with kind of the prologue they behind the curtain perspective but I also think that the reason that the rest of this book does exist and there is a just one simple for argument from each person you know Eliphaz said though that in so far but that it actually shows and Moses was inspired by God to write it out in full to see the spiraling escalation through these differing personalities all reflecting the same theology so it kind of you know there is a blog for more than one way to express the same thought that's really what I see here and I think you can summarize it as if you have done as a an early version of course this is outside the covenant lives outside of Abraham and far but long before there were any Pharisees but it is it it is kind of a fair sadism a legalism that you see expressed year even though it comes of course much later and what that always leans toward with the Pharisees attitude always leans toward was a quarter sort of Orthodox common sense theology that was without true godliness it can have an appearance of being correct at times and overwhelming appearance you know of being correct at times it definitely can appear to be true because it has elements of truth in it but to be and it can even include as I note of your righteousness in our behavior but it actually represents a distortion of the truth and this is very important to keep in mind outing in the summary of part before I share a little set up for part three why will I get a little bit more of Job 's responses and thinking that's what's going on but is what I see happening in the dialogues of Job and with his friends in their arguments is that in different ways with three friends on since the Job is somehow deserving of his suffering and again in different ways is important so friends can come to us in different ways and there expressing all the varieties of human personalities and styles and perspectives all through what I would call the common sense with thinking and yet they often arrive at the same conclusion a wrong one Job 's suffering is undoubtedly intense and unusual and that's important because whenever you are actually experiencing something that has a special kind of intensity or seems to be truly standing out on such that it would warrant this kind of these attacks you are you going to find this kind of questioning of this is natural this is not just average suffering this is not just the day-to-day suffering this is not anything of that sort this is not a cause-and-effect suffering of a direct sort of is that I take drugs and then blew my mind and then I end up you're living a life that was really different than the one before but this is not like that this is no seemingly unwarranted coming from the outside and it's an intense and unusual making them especially prone that's the point to emphasize making them especially prone to his friends attacks because they're laying it on thick they have the weight of the of the theology behind them they claim insight into his situation and that makes him especially prone to their attacks given the nature of his suffering they also importantly invoke God 's power and knowledge and this is of course true many of the friends throughout their poetic attacks on Job say how many I related statements a lot of the friends and come up with a lot of correct theology a lot of correct things are said about God route dispersed throughout their poetic attacks on him they say a lot of two things and that's important to note nevertheless Joel resists this strongly vetted by implication all their true statements lead up to the fact that he has done something worthy of note that the special punishment and the fact that he keeps resisting and keeps raising the stakes as the friends keep euros cycling circling spending upward in their intensity of their critique on him so the friends strengthen their taxes as Job in obedience to defend himself so again that's why you can definitely see an evolving state of mind Job from his initial window what was need to nowhere minute and why it has always made lots and all I have had this desire to defend himself because he could not acknowledge that he had done anything worthy of this and of course it is important to note that there is a logic to the from three friends arguments sometimes what they say is true sometimes it can be that special suffering isn't as responsive God to as a judgment and you will find biblical examples of that with other kinds of individuals when God does charge of both individuals and people groups so there can be a time when special suffering is judgment of God although he usually makes it more clear to the individual and does point them towards the right path but again in this circumstance in the situation you can imagine not knowing any other circumstances not knowing God 's perspective that for Job himself with his friends claiming inside of the cost perspective how intense his suffering really was at this point even more than the health and wealth a trial with Ubuntu earlier the real trial until is not the fact that his health and wealth were taken away from him is the fact that he was accused of being deserving of losing his health and wealth that he deserved to lose it because of something that he is done specifically wrong that is why Job suffered the most this is the intensity of his suffering so what mattered to him more clearly I think it and the fact that he keeps defending himself means there is something that matters more there is something that matters more to Job in the something that matters perhaps more to someone else in the fact that he has suffered the loss of health and wealth there's something else that again I just noting that the friends all focus on and this is very important to also remember they focus on externals of religion and life and not what is inside the heart although they are talking about what they think is inside jokes hard they are focusing on an external consequences apparent consequences are focusing on the outside to look inside there's viewing the inside through the lens of the outside and not the other way around or some other students some other method I want to prepare you a little bit for tomorrow 's conclusion where I really do try and offer a new way of thinking about some of these questions on theodicy and trying to understand a little bit more about God 's perspective and how we can related and understand within a great conversation context but I want to give a little bit of a word study for you and give an opportunity to stretch her mindset and a little bit of a different way and if you have your Bibles I will make this portion a little bit participatory and I would like to have a little bit of a word study opportunity that's whether the privileges that those of us to spend sometime in seminary are studying theology I get to do is to do dig in a little bit to the Greek and Hebrew had to try Wayne some expert insight into the way that God chose to inspire his Bible and that sometimes you do learn some some new things so I would actually like if you have it and then we can take turns reading it I'd like to hear from you that your voices and I know some of you over here you can raise your hand someone choose Joshua three five and read it will take gentlemen of the front and someone on the left and I won't read them all about is what I've just know this demonstrator establish the pattern is someone from over here read Genesis eighteen fourteen and it will start your share of just a couple of Mormon sure Joshua three five and I will remember the context of Joshua as he was preparing the people for a new part of the conquest and what kind of wonders that's the word were looking at your wonders and miracles is a translation out what kind of the wonders are we expecting through this word what would you call that what happened because of Joshua 's really no room request herein and that is appealed to the people well this is it yes this is for you yes that too there are many wonders and yes the departing of the Jordan and the entire conquest yes so so when we looking at what kind of an event a miracle were looking at what everyone would call a miracle right exactly we're looking at something that is definitely what you would probably a physical miracle right physical miracle something that is really tangible I just is eighteen fourteen someone over here has anyone who has a vital all right you remember the story of Sarah and Abram and either difficult child conception process what does the angel of the Lord say that at the appointed time or a Wednesday says is anything to heart for the Lord now the Hebrew word in both of these two verses that we just read is a law that's that's the root there a lot and it means so wonderful thing debating on what translation you have an English needs wonder immune system miracle is anything too difficult if for the Lord and of course what is that you know that that's a miracle we called the birth of Isaac miracle is anything too difficult for the Lord you could go through the rest of these passages the feckless reader couple more I just I really wanted to get the pattern with someone reads from over here as well it has a Bible Psalms a hundred and six verse twenty two the Seminoles have a Bible and any volunteers are able to either side to side terrible things by the Red Sea and when you think of when you think back to the Red Sea you think it's deliverance anything trivial great physical and old miracles that helps you deliver the people exactly so miracles Exodus three twenty two else anyone are all right you recall what do God bid for the people of Israel to the Egyptians remember the series of plagues the ten plagues that tag God used to deliver the people and to know tell injured that the people of God is a Hebrew people were ready to be delivered what would you call those those templates would you call than just ordinary events uses random occurrences no no no we can call the random addresses those not in place definitely represented what you would call a miracle we would call these classical miracles in every sense of how we use the word must reads another one Exodus fifteen a decision establishing the use of the word of the Hebrew word a lot in Exodus fifteen eleven someone else and doing wonders when you read that verse doing wonders what he's thinking about the God that works miracles right God works miracles that's that cannot be explained that's right they cannot be easily explained there definitely interferences into the normal flow of cause and effect in other words you cannot trace a cause to this other than God you cannot trace it is just a random flows it's unfortunate that sound a lot of critics of the Bible today we call them higher critics critic new historical critical scholars trying to reconstruct how the Bible was written assuming that God did not write it and unfortunately this is even infected some versions of what we call liberal Christianity contracted out to be vertically honest with you this for your educational purposes it is even infected some Seventh-day Adventists who are in our church ranks address in the places who have begun to want to rebuild the Old Testament as a book without any miracles as containing no miracles and what they try and do is a trying trace all the occurrences of wonders in the Old Testament as a random note naturally caused events you can look at remember when God gave economy against his original inventions you really want to do and we gave them that the birds whales and remember and that this was a miracle is described as a miracle but you know some of these liberal Christians will try and say well many of the final analysis take an ordinary audio bird flock became by the appropriate season and that he knows all in all it is completely natural it was God has nothing to do with it that the parting of the Red Sea they even go so far to try explain that one away as a scenario some sort of wind or something review natural is something totally natural it was no know God involving anonymous no wonder there was no divine wonder going on and there was no physical miracle that was outside of the natural order of cause and effect and I can go through the rest of visa versus and many of them are references back like from the Psalms erasers ninety six and then Simpson seventy eight their referencing back to Egypt because throughout the rest of the Old Testament is something that's very consistent and that is the importance of the Israelites early history and a surreal scene repeated references back to the Red Sea and Egypt and the plagues throughout the Psalms and the all these are all occurrences these verses all have for the whenever the English word may be in that situation at that first year translation but it's all the same Hebrew word the same same Hebrew words here you can detect the pattern of how the biblical writers were choosing their words and their all wonders miracles the difficult things you know things of that nature and all of them over seventy times of this word occurs in the Old Testament it always means in these except for a couple of exceptions it always means a physical miracle it always means something like the Red Sea it always means something powerful like the birth of the child and his crew not happen you know without divine intervention it could not happen without a miracle and done well wonder you know that the English were again one of four things has all know I choose Joseph as I did borrow this from a similar context was assured this the Egyptian ancient history thing although Tyson jokes time as well because Egyptian kingdom although not for Tutankhamen here but Egypt was already rising as power under his times before Moses wrote it Egypt was already beginning to rise and in a world without miracles I just want to note that there is always greedy selfish ambition what is the most wonderful thing for the atheist secular mind and it is no doubt going to be wealth health and wealth right best what's most important thing is health and wealth that's what's wonderful about life as the miracle of the atheists life is health and wealth you know if you've given away take away gone out of your life the miracle of life the wonderful things that the law of life the atheist 's health and wealth and I think that the Egyptians pharaohs definitely enjoyed some of that you can enjoy thereof their rather lavish lifestyle for their situation life in context I don't think most of us have burial chambers Russert look like this that are covered with gold and then we were so highly revered during our lives even if they were short I like this boy king Tutankhamen but that these represent the neocon of the atheists wonders of the world and since I come from again my choice of choosing this kind of archaeological connection is designed to come from that background I have enjoyed seeing these all in person and it is a very impressive to witness the wealth of the ancient world and wonders of their lifestyle in the system this is Moses wrote is getting a quick insight into as I mentioned last time the author of Job this is the world that he would've seen wonders of his world as example is Tutankhamen 's later and after Moses time but still it is interesting to see some of the sample wealth of the English world soon on the throne I'd had a change is your mindset about life when you sit down naturally they doesn't always wondered about that for all royalty just as a little footnote I have to note that whenever you have been to other palaces and nine France or anywhere else residing or you go to these places New York going to their bedrooms covered with gold walls and you wonder what I think about myself differently if I will get there you know always wondered about that that evening but unifies individual situation because you think about yourself differently depending on the circumstances of how he woke up either health and wealth are lined up when you wake up and you see this waiting for you you know that come sit down here you think of yourself as the rather blessed clearly are living the good life God has divinely blessed you and so therefore you are on Whalen and God has ordained this and thus and thus Dennis Kennedy opposite and Job ads that's why this ties in nicely this is the opposite of you sitting here eating the opposite when your business friends you know as Joe was was feeling however I have to note on the health and wealth footnote was Tutankhamen oppressed at his being discovered no why why was he not impressed because it was you know there is no Tutankhamen to enjoy being discovered and at the wonders is that the new story of when this tomb was discovered Howard Carter when a good first new broken through and they were peeling back the debt on the open unlock remember most of Egyptian tombs of been plundered and in antiquity meeting after they were buried but in the intermediate time between modern times younger is Robertson and burglars have gone in and stolen it despite that the curses that they placed over there over their tunes but it's neat because when when they first discovered it and as his your workers were working try to do right through and at a flashlight here there they were looking in back over many years ago the century last century but then when you first look at the and archaeologists said the row Carlos got behind in the millions front man there are actually breaking through the gasman knows actually do the real work of the achievement by John Gaston what you see when you say you have a broken into this under unopened tomb and the words from his worker were icy like all things see wonderful things I see no miracles but it is the archaeologist miracle icing so they had found again the dream of of any worldly person they found the wonders it on the wealthy had made their careers as archaeologists and would enjoy forever you you write as you know that is lasting and will come to why that is so important we will continue to reminders of them that but exactly this is the otherworldly versus atheist miracle just to put it in context for some people but there is one more kind a lot over seventy two occurrences of the Hebrew word law however there are about to three or four exceptions that you do not follow the normal mold that's a pretty small minority were talking you know around five percent of the occurrences that don't follow the normal mold of how the word is used which is always Red Sea at the birth of a child that could not be borne otherwise miracles okay the law always means and wonder divine wonder but there is one exception with special exception that is worth dwelling upon that will help I think that this tomorrow to commonsense and theology and theodicy songwriter nineteen versus fifteen to twenty for the full context the Psalmist says I will meditate on my precepts and regard thy ways I shall be like in by statuettes I shall not forget thy word deal bountifully with thy servant that I may live and keep thy word open my eyes that I may behold a law things from thy law that I may behold miracles from your law miracles from your law I am a stranger in the earth do not hide thy commandments from the my soul is crushed with longing after thine ordinances at all times at all times I hope the meaning and significance of this exception to the inspired writers use of this special work for law can begin to sprinkle through your percolate through your minds on why God wishes to call his law as a container of miracles and never thought about that that God 's law is the box you see the Ark of the covenant with the ten Commandments inside and what is inside is a miracle what is inside the box is a miracle think about that for his God which were continued old to will and to do of his good pleasure for status miracle context a little bit further the miracle working power of Christ's grace is revealed in the creation in man and a new heart a higher life holier enthusiasm God says a new heart also will I give you Ezekiel thirty six twenty six is not this the renewal of man's greatest miracle that can be performed what human what cannot be human agent do by faith takes hold of the divine power human effort avails nothing without divine power and the human endeavor effort is is with many of no avail is a two way relationship continuing is wrong why quotations me know this is from accident apostles the profane and become reference the drunken silver the profligate sure souls that have borne the likeness of Satan have been transformed into the image of God this change is in itself the miracle of miracles a change wrought by the word it is one of the deepest mysteries of the word we cannot understand it we can only believe as declared by the Scriptures it is Christ in you the hope of glory I had to collect them because they're so powerful Christ's love in the heart revealing through the life it's wondrous power this is the greatest miracle that can be performed before a fall and quarreling world think back to Joshua 's question your reminder to the people of Israel prepare yourselves in fact but prior to that if you may well recall that remember Joshua in fact actually I did read Alan but that Gideon I didn't read that verse apologies for that but in judges like Didion also has the question you know when there's been a time of silence prior to the deliverance of the people and ended their run coming into the promised land but they didn't even oppress and that getting wonders if he asks where are the miracles of our fathers he asked that exact question where the law of our fathers we are we are now as the people of Israel were now in a living in downtimes and down circumstances and where the miracles of our fathers and so just keep in mind that this question this is a common one of the Christian minded in acid and that many others of a bus I think we all can ask this question where the miracles of our fathers were looking for I too often looking to go for the Red Sea I wonder Red Sea parting my life then I will understand that God is at work then I will understand what God rebels are now when I have a red sea parting when I have some other kind of physical miracle but we are reminded through this exception of the usage and Ellen White's understanding were no comments on the general reaction to this exception that this is a wondrous power this is the greatest miracle that can be performed for a fallen quarreling world let us try to work this miracle that's right you are called to be miracle workers that you know that you are all call there is no exceptions there is no exception the Christians you are all called to be miracle workers but is trying to work this miracle not in our own power but in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ whose we are and whom we serve let us put on Christ in the miracle working power of his grace will be so plainly revealed in the transformation of character that the world will be convinced that God has sent his son into the world to make men as angels you know I was reflecting our theme here you know that before men and angels but when we actually has to do to make men as angels in character and life some may say if we believe the Bible continuing from the spirit of prophecy why does not the Lord work miracles for us this was exactly Gideon 's question if we would if he will if we will let him when a human mind is allowed to come in I love this quote when I found it because I remember yesterday if you're here for the heart while the second time recovery being part one I talked about the context of us psychology and psychiatry neuroscience no common sense is leading us into some paradoxes and contradictions in how to understand human free will and the laws of the benefit of biochemistry and in our mind and how psychiatry is a discipline is crumbling because of this pressure but the listener this will if we will let him way human mind is allowed to come under the control of God that mine will reveal the miracle working power of God the power of lying in the inaction is unlike the map miracle working power of God that his own wife the mind the power of the mind in action is like the miracle working power of God that is amazing that is unbelievable that is unbelievable as read when your mind is working and God is with you and you are working with God that is a miracle the mind working is a miracle my definition of what a miracle is unbelievers and inquired why are not miracles wrought among those claim to be God 's people brethren the greatest miracle that can be wrought is the conversion of the human heart we need to be reconverted losing side of self and human ideas and beholding Christ that we may be transformed into his likeness when this the greatest of all miracles is wrong in our hearts we shall see it working of other miracles one more and so we close here couple minutes and then we can open in the first few comments or questions I cannot work through us miraculously while we are unconverted it would spoil us for we would take it as an evidence that we were perfectly for him our first work is to become perfect in his sight by living today claiming the promise of his forgiveness ask what he will this is for the broader context not killed by the way and the special since the Christ declared his disciples and shall be done unto I'm going to end there with that thought and I keep that in mind that we need to redefine our understanding of miracles outside of the normal way that we think about the cause-and-effect relationships in the world and this will tie in very directly to how Job should be understood and how the climax of Job and how it relates the great controversy really comes together and all sure that tomorrow for Sabbath will color of the seven afternoon session and I will begin to try and tie together new ways of thinking about some of these very different all questions of human suffering and that what really mattered agog with real test is for Job and what the real test is for all of us as we struggle through the health and wealth and other struggles and circumstances that like me measure for us other any comments Sauron anything of that sort questions or anything else I will open it for you we have a couple minutes before the session concludes yes yes he he he he he and he is a path that was not available to the followers apparently in his and he and he will and I and I heard that too you know that I I don't want to deny distant just to be clear the guy can't working out about seemingly invisible or transparent ways that may not always be manifestly a miracle of course God can work anywhere they want but that would be quite a miracle the drama of Egyptians into the water and insurance underwriting of high but you know you got one hundred that way I wouldn't fail I don't think he did and no you write a right you don't need on that's a lesson that is the lesson we need to be very careful thank you for that that story the other comments yes and you are in me and I will and will you be trying there there is a lesson that all big .com returned it a little bit done nine five three because I will include a little bit of Jones Jones attitude and how far he really does go DOE he goes all the way to the edge I mean he's standing on the precipice and accuses God of being too involved in from an wrong way and we'll see that Vanessa Jesus and Jesus is the Job no doubt about it Jesus experienced that the Jovian suffering so he is the example yes I have a you and I is yeah now those are great questions and I don't think it we have absolute or clear answers that can be given obviously I do believe that there that human beings do have freedom given to them but there is a a is a a desire amongst most to always try and reduce you simplify into absolute freedom what is often called like enlightenment through autonomous freedom where the human being is totally and wholly in control and the body is kind of justice thing you know that is there a separate and so forth in the mind-body relationship is kind of the severed her to your dignity so distant that there is really no connection on the other hand you know if you do accept the more of the mind-body relationship which I think is the Adventist position pay close relation reminded by this my health is so important to us to help message and then the know they will begin to come together but that doesn't mean that the law ordered this is ultimately as we understand typical law ordering this is a sensible cost-effective there is still going to be a problem there in understanding the role of the Holy Spirit in the human mind in the the unbeliever and in the believer notices Ray complex I do think that that true freedom real freedom I'll only comes for the one who is believing in God a meeting authentic freedom and all talk a little bit more about the next time what we authentically comes about because related to Greg on receiving and what real freedom really is but of course there is a limited or secondary freedom that is granted to the center of the one who is sitting on either knowingly or willingly or unwillingly living in Roman Empire in violation of the laws of God they still do have some kind of freedom however that it was it more freedom of the will that they are given to choose between certain no as if God presents them in their life with opportunities to follow later like versus simply a freedom to enjoy you don't like what they want another was you that the sinful desires that we are all born with are not part of our new bar for our freedom we are slaves we are slaves of sin we are not autonomously freedom must be rejected but but nosebleed the smart and very paradoxical gradient of what kinds of freedom and hopelessness I guide there are no easy answers and I'm not in a progenitor arm but now but they are offered and I think we should reject only easy solutions this is for a complicated but I do believe in freedom yes the other bus ride through drugs or freedom in this case the strife and sometimes they seem to help you that's right it will not note that your comment and the mind-body relationship and the context of Job and what is really going on in the health and wealth versus the moral dimension that will be talked about more the next time but that there are different levels of freedom other is what we recall a just a simple your physical freedoms and enjoy freedom by the way such a huge topic clinical freedom to all kinds understand what freedom is positively negative individual to do it I want the freedom they don't so there's lots of different kinds of freedom but but it are two major was even highlighted that is what we would call it a a clear mind freedom and a clear my freedom health message is not the same thing as moral freedom once you have embraced the law and are understanding and are living your life in harmony with God 's law that is a new kind of freedom that is different from simply using a health message or using the occasional and then cautious inside a cautious approach towards psychiatry and those medicines is a lot of harm there but on occasion I don't want to say hundred percent bad we should take these absolutes that we usually try to his and ours human mice of the pirating I like to take a little bit more complex picture but done about that kind of freedom no matter how you slice and dice the issue of the mind the mind-body freedom in the healthiness is a little bit different in the morning of the health and wealth part of freedom and we can see that is out of the clinical freedom you're welcome notably resided on what I want and health data online in-house free to think I is are seven admissions of the world you have your business is as fleeting as you may see you supporting Mimi Stephen the sinister sanity states he seems I you young to be my eye relief and Christ printed Christians to download the pictures other resources like this the Internet I commonly coming Mycenae I a

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