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1- Are You Sure? Issues and Answers

Stephen Bohr
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Stephen Bohr

President/Speaker of Secrets Unsealed

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  • October 1, 2014
    7:30 PM
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well we want to welcome everyone to the sequence unsealed product and studio were glad to see you here today and we have a lot of material to cover not only tonight but also the next three days advertisement again I trust and hope that it's got a be very very productive for each one of us individually and also for the Seventh-day Adventist Church on a global scale I not only want to welcome everyone who works here in the studio but I also want to welcome everyone was watching the live streaming and everyone who will watch these presentations on YouTube as well as later on on television broadcast I believe that the first thing that we should do before anything else is the last Lord 's presence and so I invite you to bow your heads with me reverently as we ask for the Lord 's blessing fun whenever we come before you this evening thanking you for the privilege of being here we realize that these are very very important times for your church many many important decisions need to be made we just ask father that you will help us to understand that the best decisions that can be made will always be based upon the foundation of your holy Word so we ask that you will be with us be with all those who are watching this on television are watching on YouTube and I live streaming we ask why but it will be a blessing and we asked for your presence in the precious name of Jesus we pray amen as cigarettes unsealed decided to invest a considerable amount of financial resources as well as time to organize and to present this symposium there are basically three reasons why our ministry has decided to do this symposium at this time first of all see the sale is a supporting ministry of the Seventh-day Adventist church and we feel like we need to do all in our power to uphold the decisions that have made much been made by the world church by the Seventh-day Adventist world church twice the world charts decided in nineteen ninety and nineteen ninety five not to approve the ordination of women to pastoral ministry of pastoral leadership and us all at secrets unsealed we believe that we should do everything in our power to uphold the decisions that have been made by the world church secondly we believe that the issues that were discussed at the theology of ordination study committee should become public knowledge we rather doubt that very many people out there are going to sit in the pews and read the voluminous and technical theological treatises that were presented at task this would take hours and hours of arduous and difficult reading so what we decided as the present what was given it costs in a simple and easy to understand way so that everyone was watching is able to understand the presentations that were made at the theology of ordination study committee in the third place it has been virtually impossible for us to gain a communication outlet where we can share our strongly held view that although we support women in ministry at the same time we are opposed to the ordination of women the pastoral leadership the channels of communication of the denomination especially in North America have been used to support only one side of the issue and are closed to any other view and so the estimated necessary for several supporting ministries of the church such a sequence unsealed to use their means of communication to share the other side of the equation now the question my doesn't a symposium like this risk the possibility of polarization that creates this unity in the church I would be the first to admit that this is a possibility but it is not the intent of those were speaking at this symposium to cause disunity in the church we firmly believe in the unity of the church but we believe that the unity of the church must be based upon faithfulness to the holy Scriptures we cannot just make up our minds that were going to get along and were going to agree to disagree we believe that this issue is of such monumental importance to the church especially its unity and its mission as well as the method of interpreting Scripture that we mice bring this to the fore for everyone to understand novels do not support the ordination of women to pastoral leadership have often been perceived and portrayed as the party of no but we would rather be portrayed as the party of yes do we believe that women and men are of equal value status and dignity yes do we believe that the church the Seventh-day Adventist church as a church has failed to use women in the church to their fullest potential yes do we believe that there are some functions in the church that women can fulfill better than men yes do we believe that women can preach and teach yes do we believe that God has a very special place for women in ministry yes but do we believe that women should be ordained as local elders are to pastoral leadership from the beginning of time God says yes and then sometimes qualifies it with a no yes you can eat from all the trees in the garden but no you cannot eat from the specific one is God a member of the party of no because he forbade out my name from eating of one tree is not a member of the party of no because he allows women to occupy virtually every position that is open in the church except that of elder or pastor I don't believe that we can say that God is a member of the party of no God it is a member of the party of yes now the purpose of a keynote address is to set the tone for the entire discussion that's got to take place in the next three days I will therefore bring several issues to the fore and then offer up a few brief remarks about each one the speakers that will be with us in the next three days will then along with the panel discussions deal with many of the things I'm going to bring up much more extensively and exhaustively I would like to begin my remarks with a wise quotation from the pen of Ellen White in the book counsels writers and editors page forty Ellen White had this to say it is important that in defending the doctrines which we consider fundamental articles of faith we should never allow ourselves to employ arguments that are not wholly sound please may I mail the silent on opposer but they do not honor the truth we should present sound arguments that will not only silence our opponents but will bear the closest and most searching scrutiny sought in this symposium we are going to do our utmost to present biblical material biblical answers to questions regarding to provide answers that have been looked at from many different angles and we trust that what we present will be seen not only as logical but as biblical in its foundation now I will share with you several of the issues that are involved in the discussion on women's ordination and then as I mentioned I'm going to provide a very brief response deletes now I have several of them actually I have forty and are saying are you ever go to be able to finish well I'm hoping that I will be able to finish but these are what I believe the most significant issues regarding the matter of the ordination of women the first that I would like to mention is that some state that the Bible neither upholds nor forbids the ordination of women now this might be technically true but as you examine the Scriptures you find constantly a male pattern of leadership that has been established by God I want to share with you all those indications in Scripture of male leadership according to God 's plan I believe that John peters will show that Adam was given the leadership role and creation after seeing the born males were the spiritual leaders of each household when bought established Israel he chose twelve males as the founders of the tracks the regional leaders that were established in the days of Moses what's with the thousands the hundreds the fifties and the tens were all male the seventy elders that were chosen by Moses which is kind of like a general conference executive committee of that time was all composed of males all the priests of the Old Testament were males on the Levites which would be equivalent I believe that vegans today they took care of the Temple and the offerings and in cleaning up and so on which is the role of the deacon studying all of them were males on the forty two shootings in the history of Israel into all of them were males with the exception of FY was a usurper the twelve apostles that Jesus established were all males the seventh the Regina sent out were all males the successor of Judas was chosen from two males that had been chosen from a larger pool of me it's the seven deacons were all males Paul and Barnabas of course were males the apostles and elders who are delegates at the Jerusalem Council were all males Paul's criteria was met that those who are leaders in the church the elders and the bishops must be the husbands of one wife and then you have of course Timothy and Titus that were ordained as elders both males there is not a single case in all of Scripture where a woman was ordained as an elder or as a pastor of a church and so as you look at the preponderance of the evidence in Scripture it becomes very clear that God 's pattern of leadership is males Ellen White is warned us the dangers of doing things that are not strictly forbidden in Scripture I read from the book Wright controversy page two hundred and eighty nine were all white explains about the Roman Catholic Church Road began by enjoining what God is not forbidden and she ended by forbidding what he had explicitly enjoy the argument of the Bible permits that which it does not prevent census down a very dangerous slippery slope let's take just one example the historical evidence indicates that the early church began celebrating sunrise services in commemoration of the resurrection of Christ at first they did it on a yearly basis and then they started doing it on a weekly basis I found no clear biblical evidence that would say that this is all right on it this is forbidden and yet in a very short period of time what happened was that the church and joined the celebration of sunrise services in honorable resurrection and came to forbid the observance of the holy son just because the Bible does not forbid something does not mean that it's right the Bible does not permit women's ordination explicitly but it's unanimous testimony is that the practice is reserved for qualified men there is not even one example in all of the Bible of a woman who was ever ordained to any office another argument that is you is is that hauled was a leader in Israel and therefore we should have women leaders in the church today now the important thing is that Hall didn't provide guidance to the King the King by the way was assigned now back to this site and whether he would follow her counsel are not busy hall that was not the leader she was a counselor of the later halted provided guidance to the King but the King decided whether he would follow her advice or not the important thing to remember here is that Holdren did not take over the reins of leadership in June she did not take over the federal or the priesthood to clean up the apostasy she was merely the messenger that God chose to encourage our sign up to leave out in the needed Reformation in the kingdom of Judah hall that did not clean up the mess in what Josiah the elders and the priests as the leaders of Judah who took her counsel to heart and let out in the necessary changes it was the team who ordered the elders of Judah and Jerusalem the priests the prophets and all the people came out because the king called them to come out to renew the covenant it was the team within Commander Hill coyote the cleanup the Temple and the land from the from the paraphernalia that had been using the pagan cultists and it was McCain who commanded the unfaithful priests to be slain and it was the king who was extolled by Lord for being a faithful leader butyrate sorry the center of the story is looking at King is pulling all the strings as the leader but hall hall that is helping in the sense that she's providing counsel as to how the leadership proceed in this sense Paul is very similar to a profit that existed recently which is Ellen blank another argument that is used in favor of women's ordination is the idea that because Deborah as well met women should be allowed to serve as pastors and elders in the church today there are several factors that we need to take into mind when we talk about Deborah first of all Deborah served in a very chaotic I'm Israel's history the system of judges was not God 's organizational ID furthermore Ellen White makes it very clear that she served in the absence of the usual magistrates she was an exceptional case in other words it's interesting to notice that this did not set a precedent for other women judges in Israel and it did not come up as a result that you would have other women elected as judges regionally according to the desires of the people furthermore the Bible says that she judged private and civil things not at the gate like the usual judges would do but under a tree you see Debra advised and encouraged the leader Barack to someone and to lead the troops Barack was the one who summoned the troops she was the one who led the troops he was the one who pursued the enemy in other words Deborah is serving as a prophet to encourage the leader to do his job furthermore it's interesting to notice that laid around Samuel recalls the story of what happened in the days of Deborah any mentions Barack as the hero of the story and does not even mention Deborah that sounded percent of chapter twelve in verse eleven and when the book of Hebrews mentions this story it is not mentioned Debra at all once again Hebrews eleven in verse thirty two mentions Barack as the one who delivered Israel interesting then Dan Rather was not the one who delivered as well no one who really killed the King was a woman called higher solemnly strengths clearly indicate that this was an exceptional case she was playing the role more of a profit then taking over the reins of leadership in Israel another argument that is not brought up is concerning Julie supposedly Julia was the first female apostle in history and sure that Abel Sergey is going to talk a little bit about Julie about just giving up a few interesting details first of all it's debatable whether the name Julia is male or female secondly it isn't conclusive from the text where the Julia was a well-known apostle or where she was well known to the apostles and minutes have always believed that clear tax must explain the text that are unclear in every other instance in the New Testament where you have apostles but named by name they are always males the twelve apostles were male the successor of Judas was male Paul and Barnabas were males as well as all the other ones in the New Testament all of the other apostles that are mentioned by name were male and some of the biblical evidence seems to clearly indicate that Julia was not an apostle now some people say yeah but what about Phoebe creating was a big and she occupied the identical office as the deacons do in the church today but the fact is when you look carefully at the evidence you discover that even though it's true that the word that is used to describe baby got along is used for the office of a deacon is also true that the word not going to you mean simply Simon someone whose science and it does not refer most of the time in the New Testament which are topics and refers simply to the gift of service not place out we follow I do we find in the New Testament that Phoebe was ever ordained to be a deaconess by the laying on of hands now we know from the MNS that there were deaconesses in the early church but we also know that they were ordained by the Bishop and laser under the leadership of the Mildred 's we also know that they served only the needs of the women in the congregation and so it is uncertain that Phoebe was a beacon as is so firmly stated by many who believe in the ordination of women but then comes the license chapter three verse twenty eight when the apostle Paul stated that there is neither male or female it saw as the argument goes I both males and females can now serve as Elders and bishops are overseers because there is no longer male nor female it is true why were the apostle Paul later on right in Timothy and Titus that the elder or the overseer must be the husband of one wife isn't possible then that what happened with Paul is that at the beginning Paul was in a military in other words he believed that males and females could both serve as elders and bishops and then little later on in his ministry when he wrote persons not present second Timothy and Titus is in it I think that now you know we need to restrict it just enables the fact is the biblical evidence clearly shows that Galatians three twenty eight cannot mean that women can be elders and overseers because the apostle Paul later said that elders and overseers must be the husband of one wife now there are four ways of looking at Galatians three verse twenty eight one way is what it says there is neither male nor female it means that there are no longer any biological gender distinctions today well besides being physiologically untrue this would reverse the gender distinction once this stage is that the established decoration doesn't the Bible say that God created male and female of course Paul would then be overturning the creation order because God created a clear distinction between male and female so we eliminate the possibility number one possibility number two is that there are no longer any marital general gender distinctions but if this were true Paul would once again be reversing the creation order because God established heterosexual married at the beginning when he married male and female the third possibility is that there are no longer any role distinctions in the home or in the church because there's no longer any male or female that their roles today in other words are totally interchangeable if this were true Paul would once again be reversing the creation order John peters is another salsa established specific roles for males and females in the Garden of Eden before same he established that the man should be the head you should be the leader and the woman should submit to the authority of the husband or the man sought Paul meant that there are no longer a role distinctions once again he would be going against the creation ordered the Don established at the very beginning the fourth option I believe is the correct one it's the idea that male and female have equal access to salvation him are equally members of the family of God the context indicates that very clearly the content is speaking about the incorporation right it's speaking about baptism the entrance into our relationship with Christ the entrance into the church the context of Galatians three verse twenty eight clearly reveals that Paul is describing the initiation rite into the he was not dealing with church offices particularly the church offices of Elder and Bishop which come much later on in the Christian experience you know one of the characteristics that is given in the list that the apostle Paul gives in first Timothy and Titus is that the one who occupies the office of bishop or elder must not be on Nemo Frank and I was must not be a new believer saw how can someone noises three twenty eight was just been baptized and joy in Christ how could that mean that that person now can serve as a Bishop was an elder of the church it doesn't fit the context argument that is used frequently is that it is certain that in our Western culture is required that we be absolutely a military in our ordination practices society might consider us sexist if we ordained only males so in order to reach culture we must be sensitive to its designers but I must underline that our standard is not what society wants our standard is what the word of God prescribes society also strongly pushes for gay marriage and for evolution should we then changed our views on marriage and creation to adjust to the demands of culture so him the embarrassment of being called fundamentalists obscure in tests and Stone Age Christians because we still uphold traditional marriage a literal seven-day creation and proper leadership roles within the home and the church absolutely not we must uphold the absolute authority of Scripture at the risk of ridicule and even of persecution this is not time to give in to peer pressure that would lower the standard that God gives us in holy Scripture Ellen White in the book fundamentals of Christian education page two eighty nine had this to say there are many in the church court at heart belong to the world but God calls upon those who proclaim to believe the facts truth she also called at present truth as he calls it the truth by this time some salt she says that God calls upon those who claim to believe the advance truth to rise above the present attitude of the popular churches of today where is the self-denial where is the cross bearing the Christ Ascension characterized as follows the reason we have had so little and let's listen it we think what we need to abatement of that will have more influence was not what she says the reason we have had so little influence upon unbelieving relatives and associates is that we have manifested little decided difference in our practices from both of the world parents need to wake and purify their souls by practicing the truth in their home life when we reached the standard that the Lord would have us reach listen carefully now world lanes will regards Seventh-day Adventist as often singular straight laced extremists we are I suspect the gallant of the world and to angels and men it's always think that we need to please the world so that the world doesn't consider if I were going down the wrong road another argument that is used as that in the Old Testament it is certain that there were male priests but under the new covenant now we we had the priesthood of all believers and that means that both males and females can serve as pastors and elders because like in this matter many times fail to realize that the priesthood of all believers already existed in the Old Testament according to Exodus nineteen verses five and six got called all Israel to be a priesthood to share the gospel with the nations but in the same chapter were told that God chose mantles from the house of Aaron to be to occupy the specialized offers a brief and so all Israel was a priesthood but God chose males from the house of Aaron to be the leaders the spiritual leaders in Israel in the same manner God has called all Christians to be a holy priesthood to proclaim as it says in first Peter the praises of him who called them out of darkness into his marvelous light but this does not eliminate the fact that the spiritual leaders of the church must be the husbands of one wife another argument that is used in favor of women's ordination is the idea that Ellen White was automated and that she was issued ministerial credentials this meant has been passed along as gospel truth by many of those who favor women's ordination the evidence provided in this symposium particularly on Sabbath morning will clearly and irrefutably revealed that Ellen White was never ordained by the laying on of human hands you all seem then received an honorary ministerial credential for several years but one of the most credentials no one ordained is crossed off because Alloway was never ordained by the laying on of its another argument that is used is that the word had best not really mean it that the word had in the New Testament actually means source or origin the interesting thing is I checked out all of the Bible versions and the word A in the New Testament is always translated had is use seventy seven times in the New Testament according to what I was able to determine and not once in the translated source or origin it simply means hat know what you find in the New Testament on variant meaning of this word it's true that once in a blue moon and classical extra biblical literature you might have a reference to the word calf of a meeting source or origin but that meaning is a too holy Scripture another argument that is used is that the expression husband of one wife really means faithful to your spa you see that's very gender inclusive and others even say that a better translation is one woman may of course get rid of the general gender specification but it bears noting that the vast majority of Bible versions dispute those renderings not a single version that I was able to find translates one woman man and only a handful of less popular versions translate baseball to their spouse it bears noting that the warrants husband and wife are very gender specific there and offers Timothy and Titus the words brunette are used and the word on there is used on nanometers husband our man in gourmet means life that identical words are used for example in Ephesians five twenty five words as husbands love your wives would be proper to translate my love your women while it means husbands love your wives in other words although that's very very gender specific when Paul says that the elder of the bishop must be the husband of one wife he means exactly that the husband of one wife he must be made now another argument that is used is the idea that when Paul said that he would not allow a woman to teach our topics exercise authority of the man because the man was created first and a woman get all those in favor women's ordination with the idea that there was this Ephesian heresy was being taught by the women in the church of Ephesus to whom Paul is writing here that I even have been created first and then Adam and the apostle Paul is simply sending them straight that adapter actually I was created first and then the woman the fact is folks that is not necessary to inject into Scripture by historical context that even reputable historians that question evidence in the text that this heresy was being taught by the women from ever since it is injecting an argument in the Scripture that is not found in Scripture that is called by the way I said Jesus wouldn't be much better simply to take what the apostle Paul says at face value and Volvo went back to Genesis and say that it is significant that the man was great first and a woman and a woman came from man and not man from the woman and leave it at that and simply take Paul's argument as it is found in Scripture instead of injecting on our visual context into Scripture now some people say well the idea of mail hence it is a negative thing that only comes in after saying came into the world but the question is a male head to or leadership is a bad thing how do we explain Paul's words in first Corinthians chapter eleven verse three where the apostle Paul says that God the father is the head of Christ is that a bad thing obviously not he also says that Christ is the head of the man is that a bad thing that certainly would not be a bad thing but when it comes to the point of saying that the man is the head of a woman that is a bad thing that's what they say but the headship is not in itself a bad leg is in a bad thing but Christ is the head of the church absolutely not is actually bad for the physical had to exercise loving lordship over your body the physical head and body haven't a military relationship now the head and the body both mutually need each other don't think but should the body exercise authority over the head portion of the body submit the loving authority of the head you see the head is a good thing because the handle of the body and wants the body to function well they had names of body but the body definitely needs the hint another idea that comes up is that the idea of male headship gives people the idea that this means that are you subservient demand and they should be oppressed by men that's the way that they look offensive and I know that the ego is not to be dealing a lot with cents shipping the New Testament that is all wrong caricature of what real hatchet is missing Township is not something that isn't bad that God the father is ahead of Christ absolutely not is it bad that Christ is a settlement demand absolutely not using the word had and the word Township are not necessarily bad in themselves another argument that came up recently which was brought out by the Andrews University theological seminary began out with the statement that Christ is the only head of the church and therefore there can be no male leaders in the church that are heads and all in fact they stated that if we pitch that their sense in the church under the headship of Christ that that is equivalent to the Roman Catholic heresy of the role of the Pope being the head of the church not at cost there were three groups there was group number one to believe that women should not be ordained as pastoral leaders in the church there was group number two that believe that women should be ordained because the roles of men and women are identical and then I was group number three men believed that I do not wish to allow for the ordination of women even though God 's plan originally a creation was for male leadership in the home and in the church now let's talk a little bit about this idea of hits you in the Old Testament Moses was the head of Israel under the unique headship of Jesus Christ in fact under Moses there were also hints not us Exodus chapter eighteen and twenty five norm for the mullahs has established the leaders of thousands and hundreds in fifties and panels it was interesting it is you really look at this that it were angry and is reflected very closely to the system log and organization of the ancestors know many people don't think of the organization of Israel as being a representative style of governance I think that God spoke to Moses and then Moses imposed every night of the people not Israel represented style of government and sells well Moses would be equivalent to the General conference present millions of the tribes would be equivalent to the divisions of thousands would be equivalent of the aliens the hundreds would be equivalent to the conferences the fifties would be maybe Domitian and depends would be equal to local church and the price would be equivalent to the pastors and the defense would be the Levites known as a strong argument that you could use the sound that even though I terminology is different the organization of Israel was very similar to the organization of the Senate there was George and Helen White said that the organization of Israel was a perfect organization now in Exodus eighteen twenty five were told about those who worked under Moses the leaders of thousands hundreds fifties and fans this is how the word hand is used and also rule that says there and Moses chose enabled man out of all Israel and made them what happens when there's that nasty little word and maven tags older people rulers are known as the hands I want rulers over thousands rulers over hundreds rulers of fifties and rulers of tens and it's interesting testimonies the minister 's page three forty one Ellen White you about this text sends this also is for us it should be human by our responsible new in the book confrontation page twenty five Ellen White makes this interesting comment she says Moses was there visible leader while Christ stood at the head of the armies of Israel they are invisible leader and saw there was a visible leader which was Moses under the leadership of the invisible leader which was Jesus Christ I'd like to read a couple of interesting statements from Ellen White on the role of the leaders in the Seventh-day Adventist church pastoral leaders the first of these statements is not an act of the apostles page one hundred and twenty two and is a specific phrase otherwise the notice it is the phrase in his spent that means by the way instead I listened carefully since his ascension Christ is carried forward his work on the earth by chosen ambassadors through whom he speaks to the children of men and ministers to their needs the great head of the church superintended his work the rule the instrumentality of men ordained by God to act as he is representatives that's asked of the apostles three sixty nine better react to the buses one twenty two she speaking about Ananias and when Ananias laid his hands upon small Elimite makes this done in this case Ananias represents Christ and also represents Christ's ministers upon the earth who are appointed to act in his stead in Christ's statement the last talk to me I love so that they may receive site and Christ's spent he places his hands upon him and as a praise in Christ's name so I'll receive the Holy Ghost all is done in the name and by the authority of Christ Christ is the fountain the church is the channel of communication but this is my favorite gospel workers page eleven she says while Christ is the minister in the sanctuary above he is also erroneous delegates the minister of his church on the earth because of delegates he that people feel chosen men he carries forward his work through them as when in the days of his humiliation he moved visibly upon the earth although centuries have passed the lapse of time has not changed his party promised to his disciples though I am with you all we even unto the end of the world from Christ's ascension to the present day man ordained of God deriving their authority from him have become teachers of the faith Christ the true Shepherd superintendence his work through the instrumentality of these under shepherds saw in areas the great Shepherd and the other shepherds that Greg had and those warheads under the great head she continuously thus the position of those who labor in word and doctrine becomes very important in Christ's stead they beseech the people to be reconciled to God the people should not regard their ministers as mere public speakers in our attempts but as price and best sitters receiving the wisdom and power from the great the church is slight and this regardless bought the words spoken by Christ the representative that's interesting by Christ's representative is showing disrespect not only to the man but also to the master who has sent him she is in Christ's stead and the voice of the Savior should be heard in shares represented how can it be more explicit by the way the difference between an emulator is a matter of semantics the word hatchet this is like the other reason than the fact that it is a strong word and she had shipped basically means leadership you know I looked up the meaning of the word sent in Webster's eighteen twenty eight condition which is probably the one that Ellen White reviews and has this definition can't delete to direct to act as leaders sought to distinguish between head and leader is an artificial distinction another argument that is used as according to the Bible many women served as president if a woman can be a prophet like that should be an elder or plaster after all isn't the office of profit on higher your rank in the office of pastor wanted by no one in the book online six of the testimony eleven LMI they had this to say there must be no belittling of the gospel ministry no enterprise should be so conducted as to cause the ministry of the word to be looked upon as an inferior matter it is not so those who belittle the ministry are belittling Christ I listen the highest of all work is Wall Street and its various lines that should be kept before they knew that there is no more blessed of God than that of the gospel ministry so this idea that the right of property is up here and get the pastors made on yourself if Allen like to be a prophet you know why can't women be elders and pastors of the church simply does not hold water this is a gift of prophecy is a spiritual gift that is given by God without regard to gender there were many women Robertson Scripture however the role of profit must be not be mingled are mixed with the role of elder our pastor they are two different things the Bible allows for gender inclusive language inclusiveness when it comes to profits but it does not allow for gender inclusiveness when it comes to elders and pastors of the church some people say that Ellen White was the leader of the dung of the seventh and his denomination so why can't women being leaders in the church today well the fact is folks that Ellen White fulfill the same role that was fulfilled for example my holder and never she delivered messages from God to the leaders she corrected the leaders she encouraged the leaders of the church when they were discourage but you never took over the reins of leadership at any level in the seventh and his denomination she never occupied a position as pastor all the way up the general conference president she was not called Pastor Helen or elder white she was called sister went down while you yourself said in volume eight of the testimonies two thirty six and two thirty seven no one has ever heard me claim the position of leader of the denomination he has not provided that the burden of leadership shall rest is apparently shall rest upon a few men responsibilities are distributed among a large number of competent every member of the church has a anomalous the process and remember on the church has a voice in choosing officers of the church the church chose as the officers of the state conferences delegates chosen by the states Congress has chosen the offices of the union conferences and delegates chosen by the young and conferences shows the officers of the general current of the way that we do our elections she says by this arrangement every conference every institution and recharge and every individual either directly or through representatives has a voice is apparently in the election of the men who bear the chief responsibilities in the general conference name other than that is when the work was just starting nor since the work has grown to large proportions during which time responsibilities have been widely distributed has anyone heard me claiming the leadership of this people file letter sounds as if she wasn't a leader of this people ballot like with the counselor she encouraged she corrected just like holdup and divergent and all of the biblical prophets but she did not take over the leadership roles but she help the leaders in the process another argument that is used is that I first read this chapter eleven in verses three to fifteen is a cultural thing that applied only to the times of the apostle Paul you see because it says there that women should wear a veil and we don't have women wear veils anymore in the chart so as they say that was just the custom of the time but we need to understand that even though the wearing of the veil was a custom of the villas of principle behind it and the principal does not vary or change the principle is male headship the way I'm announcing a public and then the public rebound was a woman want the veil recognizing her submission to male authority in other words the submission of a woman to male authority is timeless although the way of manifesting the principle varies from culture to culture I'm beginning illustrations is it all went out the home avant one of the individuals on the church that I visited and done I noticed that there was a stack of books on the table there and die under all of the books with the Bible now we all know that the proper place to put the Bible is always on top of all of her books right there's not a window that's why we have to do it you put it on top it's why was my mother looked at the Bible of the bombing you know just as it gets easier finally I said to him I said listen I need to know why you put the Bible under all those books the Bible supposed to be on top of all knowledge and your enemies that will that's true the Bible is on top of all knowledge but it is also the foundation of all knowledge I know what is the principle the principle is that the Bible is about all knowledge but the way in which that is expressed and vary from culture to culture are you with manna and so the mail was a way of manifesting male headship and female submission but it doesn't mean that first Corinthians eleven mold longer applies to us today another argument that is used is that certain women in Adventist history were ordained as pastors and elders well I can answer this very quickly there is no evidence whatsoever in the history of Venice church that women were ever ordained or received a ministerial credential until recent times Alan what is the only woman yes your managers and always at the who received a ministerial credential other women received ministerial licensor and I have some quotations were clearly says that ministerial credentials argument towards a Masters ministerial license with argument of those who have not yet been ordained there was a clear distinction many women receive ministerial licenses but no women except Ellen White received a ministerial credential and Ellen White received it more as an honorary thing another argument that is used in favor of women's ordination is the ordination was approved at the eighteen eighty one General conference session I want to read from review and Herald December twenty eighteen eighty one page three hundred ninety two about the resolution that was taken at Pat General conference session resolved the females possessing the necessary qualifications to fill that position as a builder pastor may with perfect propriety be set up like my ordination to the work of the Christian ministry and so it sounds like the General conference session approved the ordination of women pastors but when you look carefully at the evidence nothing such as this really took place you see after the resolution was ran with actually a motion rebel resolution was a motion after we ran at the general conversation it was discussed we know that at least eight individuals spoke to that specific issue and a vote was taken by the General conference session to referrer list to the general conference executive committee and in the executive committee it died until nineteen ninety when it resurrected in Indianapolis I rather like that again in nineteen ninety five and younger and bottlenose times general conference did not refer to the executive committee the General conference in session said no in fact the North American division brought the resolution to allow the ordination of women at the General conference sessions of nineteen ninety and nineteen ninety five it was debated on the floor and was rejected by the delegates after two individuals at Utrecht presented the biblical evidence everyone was persuaded the doctor Doctor Don state presented the more persuasive case from Scripture another argument is used is that the missionary outreach of the church is being negatively impacted by a failure to ordain women to pastoral leadership actually fault statistics show that charges that have decided to ordain women have generally experienced a decrease in church group the church is growing phenomenally outside of the so-called developed countries and they don't ordain women in fact I remember an task in one of the sessions it was maybe the first of the second you know that this argument was being you is that you are in order for the church to grow we need for being women we ordain women in the church is that experience explosive growth I remember gentlemen stood from Africa PhD a cellulitis on hearing this about you know if we ordain women to the gospel ministry that the result of the explosive growth of the church he says you know we had a very clear stand in our field and we don't ordain women as pastors and were experiencing explosive growth you could hear a pin drop not like a dump of the microphone and contradicted because they are places in the world when it charged is grown phenomenally in fact there are some scholars were saying that God is never going to pour out the latter rain until we ordain women I don't find any place in Scripture that a condition for our receiving the latter rain is to ordain women as gospel ministers another argument that is you is is that women today I have been called to the ministry they feel like God has called them and therefore we should accept their feelings as as you know Don accepting them being called into gospel ministry and into ordination but we believe that it's not feelings that dictate whether something is in harmony with the will of God is Scripture that tells us whether it is in harmony or not not impressions and feelings in the blood by controversy three ninety four three ninety five Ellen White is ascribing some of the fanaticism that arose at the time of the Millerite movement and she had this to say about this time fanaticism began to appear someone who had professed to be zealous believers in the message rejected the word of God as the one in fallible guide and claimed to be led by the spirit gave themselves up to the control of their own feelings impressions and imaginations there were some who manifest a blind and bigoted zeal denouncing all would not sanction their course their fanatical ideas and exercises met with no sympathy from the great body of diabetes yet they serve to bring reproach upon the cause of truth we cannot depend up on feelings and emotions and success a ministry as a litmus test of whether the ordination of women is proper or not it's the Bible that dictates whether we should do it or not it's not feelings it's not a what is not assuming success in ministry another argument what I found which is very interesting is that those who believe in male leadership before the fall they also have to believe that women are a lesser order of humanity and quality and that women are inferior to men that is accumulated mail had to be brought up while automatically to say you believe that women are lesser order of humanity and that women are inferior to men the fact is folks that this is a strawman argument as tall as Nebuchadnezzar 's image there is no regulatory and I know of there is no individual who you know complementarity excuse me who believes that God has different roles for men and women although they are equal in status inside of the national complement Gary and I believe that women are inferior or lesser order of humanity that is just simply a fabrication in order to to cause people to go to the signage and rejected the base of some theological argument but on the basis of the motion 's I like to read from the international standard encyclopedia priority of creation may indicate headship but not as theologians had so uniformly affirmed superiority dependence indicates difference of function not inferiority human values are estimated in terms of the mental and spiritual man and woman are endowed for equality and are mutually inter- dependent on related argument is that if you don't believe that women should be again pointing to the gospel ministry then you do not believe in women in ministry once again a gigantic strong also last I recommend who were opposed to women's ordination to pastoral leadership are very much in favor of women in ministry in fact women can occupy virtually every position in ministry in the Senate Baptist Church except for the permission of elder or ordained pastor laws are reserved according to the Bible for husbands of one wife now it is also claimed that there is no parallel between the relationship between God the father and his son Jesus Christ and the relationship between man and woman originally when they were created the fact is that the Bible makes it very clear that God the father and his son are two individuals but the Bible says that even though there are two individuals they are one because they are composed of the same substance they are cool substantial in other words and the spirit of prophecy in the Bible make it very clear that Christ was subject to the will of his father even before sin came into the rivers you read the first chapter of the book patriarchs and Prophets offense through very clearly that Jesus is subject to local father and when you go up first group is fifteen verse twenty eight it makes it very clear eternity future Christ will submit himself to the authority of his father in other words that God had has this idea off to individuals they are one calls substantially and the sun is subject to the father now in Genesis one verse twenty six we find the father speaking to the sun and saying let us make man in our image according to the image of God is not only that Adam individually is physically mentally and spiritually in the image of God and he individually is in the twelve physically mentally and spiritually remains of their relationship is a reflection of the relationship between God the father and son Jesus Christ and after that the Bible say that Adam anymore to individuals while ecumenical individuals does the Bible also say that they are one the article substantial or what does the Bible teach that the woman is subject to the authority of the man all you satellite that will and would like the relations between the file in the sunnier because the Bible says that the image of God in which Adam many were created is a reflection on a human scale of the relationship that exists between the father the son and of the song 's subject is a father and he doesn't complain it doesn't line a sound not going to submit anyone is perfectly happy so God has created a system where the man and the woman are two but one but the woman is to submit this facility authority on the man another argument that is used is that Ephesians five verse twenty one states that the husband and a wife the man and the woman must be mutually submissive that's one of the favorites because it says submit one to the other however several contractual matters are ignored by using this argument the submission is not the white lives with his father to the wife and the wife to the husband will affect is you have to look at the succeeding context to see what the apostle Paul is saying it was succeeded by this the apostle Paul then speaks about wives submitting to their husbands about children submitting to their parents and about bond servants submitting to their masters now my question is are we to understand that Paul was teaching that submission is a two-way street between parents and children and children say all parents submit we so are we talking here about the apostle Paul is saying that Masters and bond servants should be mutually submissive one one hundred always say that the commanding angels in heaven are mutually submissive to the Angels that they command is there any evidence in Scripture that God the father and God the son are mutually submissive to one another in an Anglican area relationship the eleventh of furthermore in the very next verse the apostle Paul says along also with verse twenty four the first one or two of verse twenty four apostle Paul says wives submit yourselves to your own husbands there's not one text in the writings of Paul worries says husbands submit yourselves to your way besides in other places besides on this thanks in the visa chapter five the apostle Paul says that wives should submit to their husbands for example in the Colossians chapter three verses eighteen and nineteen the apostle Paul says wives submit to your own husbands as is clearly in the Lord and Betty says husbands love your wives and do not be bitter to the not once did we find any text in the writings of the apostle Paul where he indicates that husbands are to be subject to the authority of our religious statement from Ellen White volume one of the testimonies page three oh seven three oh eight Elimite says the husband is the hair of the family as Christ is the head of the church so if you don't like the husband as they had a friend a lot like Christ does the church so the husband is that on the family as Christ is the head of the church and listen carefully in any course which the wife may pursue to lessen his influence and leaving him from the dignified responsible gun possession is displeasing to God Aniston don't have a life to yield her wishes and real Pilgrim when I would go over like a red blue in the world today now she can she explains ball should be hailed as automated to be rituals which mutually submissive the word of God gives preference to the judgment of the husband and it will not detract from the dignity of the wife to yield to him she has chosen to be her counselor advisor and protector the husband should maintain his position and his family with all meekness and yet with decision very very clear February the on everything that is set up in favor of women's ordination when you look at all of the evidence it becomes very clear that the evidence is not saying what those workpaper women's ordination would like it to say another argument it is used as then as slaves were emancipated from bondage to their masters women should be emancipated from their bondage to men Arthur questionnaires and valid to compare the emancipation of women with emancipation of slaves practice folks that God established female submission to male leadership before the ball was established by God as his ideal whereas the idea of slavery was invented by man after the fall partly different contexts furthermore this is very important ordination to the church office of elder or minister is not a right but a calling that is not given to everyone by go racial and gender quality are available rights that have been granted by the creator to all of his creatures my past moral ordination is not one of those inalienable rights that have been granted to women by the creator to the contrary God has consistently reserved Pastore or the ordination in the Bible for basic human rights are different than role distinctions in the church because rights belong to all human beings but roles in the church are according to God 's calling and do not belong to all another argument that is used is that there's a trajectory in Scripture from from I know not favoring ordination of women to eventually favoring the ordination of women the fact is a have to go beyond the content of Scripture to arguments because and I pointed out before it becomes very clear that the apostle Paul in Galatians three twenty eight says there is neither male nor female Galatians was written long before first and second Timothy and Titus there's no scholar would say the first Timothy and second Timothy and Titus were written before Galatians and yet in Timothy and Titus if possible set a the elder and the bishop must be the husband of one wife I guess the apostle Paul at one time with authoritarian and then later on he became a compliment if you look at the New Testament evidence that's what the New Testament evidence indicates another argument that is used is that it is certain that spiritual gifts and church offices are interchangeable then the same thing spiritual gift and the church office but the fact is that the New Testament makes a very clear distinction between spiritual gifts which are given without regard to gender and church offices which are gender specific beginning celebrity Spanish now the one and only one word busbar pastor we have an English in English math pastor and we have suffered they mean the same thing analyze as they were she says that men and women can serve as pastors on the flag of the saw some people and sensing she says that women can be pastors on the block the problem is the word pastors as she uses it is different than the definition of passes that we get today the meaning astray for us pastors that I mean individuals would be a better day to be ministers but in the times of Elimite prospers me as someone who has the gift of jeopardy women want to shepherd children that were to shepherd other women but that doesn't mean that they were pastors in the sense that we use the word they know its pastors is one of the spiritual gifts according to the apostle Paul he says pastors is one of gifts of the spirit but Paul is not speaking of the church office he's speaking about a spiritual gift them to give another example evangelism regional that there were many successful women evangelists in the history of the adventure in the early history there are some powerful women evangelists and evangelism is one of the gifts of the spirit that is mentioned by the apostle Paul by the gift of evangelism is not the same as being an elder or being overseer of the church you're talking about church offices versus gift that is given for people to function within the confines of the church another idea that people present is that it is quite certain that our pioneers were supportive of the idea of women's ordination as elders and pastors of the church nothing could be further from the truth I'm literally nothing to sources of our pioneers of the the signs on the vines December nineteen eighteen seventy eight where JH Waggoner Metro signs of the times my expense the divine arrangement from the beginning is this that the man is the head of the one at reregulation is disregarded or abused in this lawless page but the Scriptures noticed the Scriptures always maintain this order in the family relation for the husband 's animal life even as Christ is ahead of the church Ephesians five twenty three man is entitled to certain privileges that are not given to women and she is subjected to some duties and burdens from which the woman is exempt a woman may pray and prophesy exhort and comfort the church bought she cannot occupy the position of a pastor or ruling elder this would be looked upon as usurping authority over the man which is here prohibited is commenting in first Timothy chapter two in first with another editorial in signs of the times in eighteen ninety five is a response to a question that was asked should women be elected to offices in the church when there are enough brethren and this is the answer of the editor this is eighteen ninety five by the way quite late in the nineteenth century this is the answer of the answer if by this is meant the office of elder we should say at once no but their office is in the Church which men and women can fail acceptably and often times there are found sisters in the church who are better qualified for this big brother such office as for instance as church clerk treasurer in the track society etc. as well as the office update in this assist me in the deep end most beginners is assisting the big big and as assistant obedience in looking after the poor and in doing such other duties as would naturally fall developed knowing I read this statement of the Pacific getting constituency session you could hear people snickering and saying how you think that that women can only service Clarkson treasurers and librarians of the tract Society as if the site how do you mean the women that I continue to say the qualifications my church elder are set forth in first Timothy three one two seven minus one seven three nine we do not believe that it is in God 's plan to give to women being ordained offices of the church by this we do not know listen carefully to the balance by this we do not mean to depreciate their labors service for the most atmosphere of woman is equal to that of my interesting she was made an help meet or favorite gourmet but that does not mean that occurs clear that means role is identical to that of men the entrance of the church and the world generally would be better served if the distinctions given in God 's word were regarding always back to the work another argument that is presented sometimes is that okay we might be willing to grant that the man should be the head of the whole but that does not translate into the man being also made in the church only in the home row the fact is that the apostle Paul both in first Timothy three and Chapter one clearly says that if a man is not able to rule his own house how can you rule the Church of God I found this remarkable statement that I want to share with you I have not found a statement until a couple of days ago because the argument is that all the home is one place and the church is a different place but the practice in this mock remarkable statement from the length she's got a say that the home is a little excitement of the church and the church is composed of many homes wasn't the way that she expresses a business in volume five a manuscript releases page four hundred and forty nine she says the qualifications of an elder are plainly stated by the apostle Paul if any be blameless the hot husband of one wife having faithful children not accused of riot or unruly for a bishop must be blameless as the steward of God not self-willed not soon angry not given to wine no striker not given to filthy but alumni office back to hospitality a lover of good man Solberg just holy temperate holding fast the faithful word as he has been taught that he may be able by sound doctrine both to exhort and to convince the gain since she's quoting Scripture knowledge legislators in a manner I want if a man does not show wisdom in the management of the church in his house in his own house of the work of the church in his own house how can he show wisdom and the management of the larger church outside so what you're saying is that the man should be the leader in the small church in the home but then in the larger church it should be one him as income growth not what you have been using how can he bear the responsibilities which means all much if he cannot govern chairs on children wise discrimination is not shown in this matter God 's blessing will not rest upon the minister who neglects the education and training of Sears children she has a sacred trust and he should in no case set before church members on a defective example and the management of his home not as the number of times that you have the masculine pronoun in this passage and for me I was very significant that alibi here speaks about the church in his own house and the larger church outside another argument that is you is that it is there in eighteen ninety five Ellen White wrote a statement that shows that she approved the ordination of women as pastors well let me read you a statement it's found in regular mail July nine eighteen ninety five all rights as here women who are willing to consecrate some of their time you begin to notice that they're not talking about pastoral ministry this is a part-time thing some of their time to the servants of the Lord should be appointed now listen to what the job description is to visit the sick look after the young and minister to the necessities of the poor that the job description of the spokes she then says they should be set apart to this work by prayer and the laying on of hands a patient lay hands upon the basic room hotel back to normal in some cases they will need to counsel with the church officers are the is this so that they were pastors or ministers event in counsel with the church opposition ministers but if they are devoted women maintaining a vital connection with God they will be a power for good in the church this is not a means of strengthening and building up the church another means besides the ordained pastor now let me just mention something which is very very important and that is that of those who favor women's organizations you guys will say when you distinguish between Ellen White's eighteen ninety five statement saying that you can ordain deaconesses but that you found a bachelors or elders that's an artificial distinction is what they say AutoNation 's ordination laying on of hands is on the site doesn't make any difference well you know I did some research and write about what you discovered something very interesting Ellen White uses the expression laying on of hands many times and she uses the word ordination minicar she will use laying on of hands to refer for example to lay hands on missionary physicians and laying on hands like I just rented this eighteen ninety five statement but she never uses the word ordination in conjunction with those other cases where she speaks of a laying on of hands for Ellen White there was a distinction between Lane Alamance and ordination let me give you several examples only give you references the word automation is used regarding the twelve she says Jesus laid hands on them and ordained them acts of the apostles BJP is yours for the seven e-mail elders that were chosen by most Allen White says that hands were laid on them in their ordination Visio is also for Paul and Barnabas hands were laid upon them in ordination Ellen White states that life and apostles one sixty one on the case of Moses ordaining the seventy elders of his acts of the apostles page ninety four outline in writing to allay workers had this to say on hold human hands have never been laid in ordination she's talking about lately percent hands of ordination might not have been laid upon you but that doesn't mean that you don't have to work and perform not a success hands laid upon you in ordination she's talking about separating ministers are also she wrote to wives of pastors and she said although the hands of ordination have not been laid upon her once again laying ha

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