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6- The Holy Kiss, Consumption of Alcohol, the Use of the Veil, and Personal Adornment

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  • October 2, 2014
    7:30 PM
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I want to welcome you to the first of several held discussions on her symposium on information before we start whenever prayer and then we'll ask our panelists introduce themselves as foreheads our father in heaven we have burdened in your holy Bible would be exalted that you would make your truth triumphant that you would use the knowledge that you have shared with each one here that you put together in a way that would make sense to those who listen we ask for your spirit orchestrates this program and we ask in the name of Jesus and the talking during the session about hermeneutics of intellectuals large words that never should've invented but it's over it describes how do we study the Bible how is it that we come to a true understanding of this issue women's ordination has a lot to do it because the truth as it were all looking at the same tax we have here quite a number of studious persons I think between them you might even have a hundred years of careful by society and were not added up and see over and introduce ourselves turn with me my name is Eugene Pruett and the church planter for Ark from Arkansas to Virginia to say a sentence about yourself and them modern emotional on I how do new Boston but until Rosie prefers phone and demonstrate high and seeing Raymond Holmes retired seminary professor by the way there were three of us at Andrews University see Raymond C Warren Becker and see Mervyn Maxwell and his Ellen Davis I am a professor of church leadership that we mark college and I'm very very honored and privileged to be I mingle sorting I'm from team Texas when I teach religion Bible New Testament Greek at Southwestern Adventist University and engage to know a lot of we can ministry as a pastor Kevin Kevin Paulson all I have served as a as an evangelist as a pastor as a revivalist and I hold a Masters degree in systematic theology and a Master of Divinity most recently from the SDA theological seminary at Andrews University the world on state from Berrien Springs Michigan and with the Christian heritage media and great conversation tumors on John peters I'm a pastor in the Pennsylvania conference so this afternoon we could talk about questions are very easy for us to answer the talk about the questions that we would like to have people ask that I put together a painful experience for panelist at a series of the type of questions that people who are antagonistic to the view that were promoting the kind of questions that they might ask and I just want to see that God is going to do for us ensuring the knowledge is given to us as a group announces Windows questions before I do this is a very well agreed panel by one or read you something fundamental to what were doing this is from the fifth one of the testimonies page three hundred and thirty one the Bible with its precious gems of truth was not written for the scholar alone on the contrary it was designed for the common people and the interpretation given by the common people when a by the Holy Spirit of course fast with the truth as it is in Jesus amen the grapefruit was necessary for salvation are made as clear as the noon day and nonetheless they can lose their way except those who follow their own judgment instead of the plainly revealed will of God I think maybe the central issue were discussing this morning is over this question of what is it mean to follow the plan revealed will of God and how can we be consistent in how we approach some of these biblical text comes good start by reading you want the questions it will be talking about almost right now someone could say to us why are you inconsistent how do you oppose women's ordination based on a texture to and yet ignore other New Testament commands like greet each other with a holy kiss or man lift up holy hands when you pray everywhere or drink a little wine for your stomach 's sake I don't read anymore water for ladies you should be wearing veils the question is addressed to us often we control and urination is that were being sold literalistic approach to Scripture we can't be consistent how we approach other passages that wonderfully would like to tackle just that first one do you greet each other with a holy kiss and if not why not how can you be consistent with what you said about women's ordination the reason you are going on now increasingly but under the influence of violent movies and the other Christian vote coming up not because I known but because there is certain since in the reading Bible and the defined wearing Argentina right now I would case my friends or whoever I greet man to man because the is a way to do it I remember there wasn't fine print almost the French were the only ones in modern time the just man to man but in Russia but the same so this is not just cricket out the timeout for the top and the second culture we would name geese are not the main wee dog hobby any seeing the norm on the people from some other countries would hop in mind give week if they do it all is a soul there some other men going to base your monitor off since do we really fire the Scriptures the children but it's another since seeing with one's we are not delete druggist that this group I think I know everybody and not everybody we had not visited euros simpler for one person what is inspired in the Bible it is not the words the words belong to the writer of the Scripture these some coming from God was to focus they do yes the concepts what was gone and the formulation so whenever I varies anything related words with any size half belonging to men on we are not the directors we take shape ten ICD clearly understood in the Scripture but we are not here to put God in judgment on words so I think my brothers you're saying that common sense is needed in Scripture I'm just wondering how do we know for sure common sense says that we should do it holy kissing originally may be in Russia and NATO in Argentina but not here in California why don't we do that with first Timothy two and three wide one would make a difference of some looking for go-ahead program is Mark Twain once said common sense and common and I think often times when we take a look at the Scripture we take a look at it through the lens in which were in culture for example either I look at the panel here and by and large we become from an Anglo Germanic context but as I read the Scripture they come from a somatic context I don't think that way I have not been raised to think that way so as I look at the Scripture and he tells me in Revelation fourteen seven that the gospel is to excuse me Revelation fourteen six the gospel is to go to every nation in kindred and Tongan people the Scripture tells me that it should transcend culture and that it's not written just for one culture so is there a construct that I can look at with in the Scripture and draw out of that something that would apply to me and enable dramatic context and somebody perhaps in the Far East if we can meet at the half in other words meet of the Scripture but not meet at our local context I find actual markers within the text to tell me is something universal for specific first Corinthians fourteen verse thirty three is right in the context of that the women beside verse thirty three says as in all the churches scroll us Paul in first Timothy tells Timothy I do not permit he's not telling Timothy in your situation don't let the women teach Paula saying I don't so now we have at least two parties Timothy and Paul NNM verse fourteen fifteen of first Timothy three he says this is how you conduct yourself in the house of God is not isolated counsel when it comes to example of for example to the wine issue he's talking to Timothy and his stomach and whether that is alcohol are not either way this text can make sense Paul is not telling Timothy drink wine the word actually used it it comes out in all of our English translations is not drink but use so let's say it is alcoholic wine I picture Paul saying there are bugs in the water use a little alcohol in it it will kill the bugs in the water that is no license we can now drink wine social reasons we actually have a statement from 3-D who was a contemporary of Paul A.D. seventy nine same time frame that this was written web CDN an extra pick up typical source says medicinal use of wine is on amended so uniform within the context of Scripture or even outside sources tell me Paul sometimes speaks universally and sometimes he says Timothy you have some advice for you I've had an upset stomach myself are Eugene I see in this particular question actually give four examples are I see some general principles and icing application of the principles in the case of the reading with each other with a holy kiss the principle is courtesy Christian courtesy in the application of the upper Paul was the Holy Ghost in the case of lifting up holy hands the principal was prayer and the application of prayer an act particular context was looking up holy hands and maybe on her knees today and maybe folded hands so we have principles web applications in the case of a little wine it could be the general principle health healthy body so we have healthy minds the application was in this case a little grape juice may help you Timothy and in the case of wearing veils the general principle was headship that his leadership male leadership and the appliqué and submissive women or women in submission the application and that the case the veil over the head suggesting submission to the husband store looking for price of forcing guide us I like the idea whether English shared that were look inside the text in an effort talking about the issue of writing with a holy kiss you look at Romans sixteen sixty he find that it's right after Paul greets many people by name the Senate finally does it in Corinthians we find in first Timothy Norris would respond by name that's obviously a local context I were not altered great great aunt of tinnitus but right they are a local hands we see the local application of the local applications looking for Prince Bandar Nathan will help us smelted in my shyness by you a couple of things I usually see on the issue of the line I will throw for one stomach it's interesting there is an Ellen White's statement very clearly some here may not be aware of it where she specifically says that the wine Paul told Timothy to take for his stomach was the unfermented juice of the great and that frankly settles at issue for me on some of the other questions were looking out may involve an application of another biblical principle and that's one that we find in both Testaments where the Bible says in the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every matter be established in a look at the doctrines and standards we hold as a people commonly of them are based on just one passage I don't know too many the two or three witnesses principle is really the key when it comes to that than most of all on the subject of male headship this is something that traces back to the original created order and we cannot stress that enough what distinguishes the male headship issue from the slavery issue from any number of other parallels that certain folks like to draw is the fact that according to the apostle Paul this principle goes back to the garden of the to the original order of gender authority and on that basis it really is in the same category as Santa Fe Sabbath which also goes back to a sinless world and when that principle was recognized most of the other pair parallels of folks seek to draw simply will not stand up because this is an original creation principle that is found throughout the Bible not just in the Garden of Eden but through the patriarchs the priests and the apostles and the elders in the Old Testament and in the new Gore had the MoveOn now you began your question by asking why our new income system because we are accused of being inconsistent with respect to the issue of women's ordination relative to principles as some pastor peters points out undeveloped there are principles involved here such as with a holy kiss greet each other respectfully and so on in different cultures the problem with respect to the women's ordination issue is one all the principles that apply are not taken into account such as headship and submission thank you all very much let's take this question will further this work and look at passages and say that by the context in the passage we can know whether it's local application or universal application what we do in first Corinthians eleven with recording that several times today about that headship principle of the leadership principle and yet in that context we find women are to be failed why do we take part of the passage and say that that is a cultural situations that we do cellular part is a universal life and I I think that's what I was saying earlier how many other times in the Bible does it say women should be veiled out of any other passage so the two or three witnesses principal what it would when applied here it would seem out what is more when we find a verse by verse three and for Sprint and eleven word speaks about the original created order we find out throughout the Bible we find that a creation like Paul says in first Timothy two we find that with the patriarchs when did you find in the Bible where anywhere in Scripture did a woman offer a sacrifice where did a woman bleed the faith community in the cultic acts of worship you'll find the patriarchs the priests the apostles the elders all were men this is a universal biblical principle the wearing of veils by women is not maybe even first present alignment doesn't say plainly that if a man wants to the contentious over this mail issue but that's not how we do it in the churches of God yes this number is right there in the text itself were told this is not the issue to divide us are not followed but many thousands of Scripture at all Marty was sure something I wanted to say that the grunt fixed to be stupid enough to ought to do which she will call and relationship with the veil it is the important thing is that the commission of the authority on the then which are not make any name discussion or of an issue all of these monitor her blood hi all room acceptance one to the author which means it was a matter of swastikas and particular situation which is not to say these is that a general principle that we would make all the differences of opinion on our local situation or 's same there is a principle and thought we would transform a console from him on apostle to some by the particular fellow being another of one sort or another neither of the church to apply all you do this particular situation on site is not in and in this context when we are talking about in and eleven it is rather different disposition of accepting the authority that the boys were commending on not making a whore discussion about the matter so our division the North American division when it produced its report about women's ordination a hellhole section about hermeneutics and in that section introduced an idea or a hermeneutical the principle -based hermeneutic are we using the Hermes hermeneutic right now were talking about these initiative in bringing up outside for women's ordination I think you're just pointed out earlier that there are some principles that run throughout Scripture in headship happens to be one of them it runs from Genesis through real testament all the way to the New Testament book of Revelation as well as it exists in the Trinity so work were not talking about me in the applications were telling about their specific isolated passages of Scripture that do not run throughout the entirety of Scripture but because of what the recording microliters or I can say or say absolutely no problem having a technical home-based hermeneutic is when you use it for any text you don't like that's when you come to a text that doesn't match what you feel about something you said there must be a principal under it I can just imagine making a Bible study in Arkadelphia to a person when they read the fourth commandment feels a strong urge you to use a principle -based hermeneutic and to say that the principle here would be that we need to give God some holy time so let me just recap available we've set and will look to their question were not against the idea we can't reason against the idea of using the principles are reading the Bible to know which things are for local application which would very we look first hence in the passage we look for work and Vitalis whether it's universal whether it's based in creation we look to see is a principle woven all through Scripture or doesn't appear to have a singular way does it also says something like this is held must be good as you say this is something not to make an issue in your local church were certain that the Scripture is authoritative and explains itself we can't just take a passage and discounted because it seems to us not to match how we feel about something and are necessary some about that and go ahead and give the reason on Mondays principal reboot hermeneutic all which is the cultural subdued to the mundane in the so hermeneutic of peace we were talking about principles might be okay if the principles of a week in from the mind of God that is from the relation but even if those principles are coming makes with the culture on actual intercultural driving the principles then we have a big problem because in that case it is not God who is given us the principles that we ourselves are choosing from home of the culture whatever we think it is proper or feeding in the particular culture on we go and not allow any body to create principles for us to follow him think the provision of the pictures because we believe that the Scripture interprets it says studies God explained off what she has in mind when he reviewed to reduce in the Scripture not any body else in brief comments click move on I hope I hope you are you I was just going to say that the spirit of the prophets is subject to the profits and when we take a look at the idea of the principles within the Scripture you can glean many principles the real question that his bag is is the Scripture prescriptive in other words doesn't dictate actions that we could take and be in harmony with Christ Proverbs three five and chapters three from verses five and six is trust in the Lord with all my heart and lean not unto thine own understanding in other words cultural paradigms could influence you as was as the brother said in all thy ways acknowledge him and he shall direct thy paths I think oftentimes we become into this divisive issue because worldly to much on our own understanding and sought getting deeper into the word of God so that he can direct us such that we are being prescriptive in a manner that he would have us to be and not cleaning principles that fit into the cultural dynamic in which we live very briefly on nine out of ten times when students ask me about the question I can and should simply based on textual context reading the text all common sense and first Corinthians eleven verse thirteen Paul actually directly suggests I am now talk moving from principal to application he says Judson yourselves is that not calmly or common that a woman pray unto God uncovered nice talking and in my context here Paul how should a woman dress in church in the fourth commandment remember the Sabbath day extending there is principle that is nonnegotiable it is the seventh day Sabbath but I don't have to go out and buy cattle to keep the Sabbath just because I don't have cattle but the Commandments as your cattle needs to rest to show within the text usually there are sufficient hints to help us distinguish principle from application just one more comment on the Bristol -based hermeneutic via the books of the entity that wrote the article in their final report actually dollars that the the reader has authority over the text not the text having authority over the reader and that when you allow that to happen that enables the reader now to deconstruct the text if you don't like the text is saying you have a liberty to deconstruct itself on every first Timothy chapter three that a bishop should be a husband of one wife they will be constructed in a happy three the spouse of one spouse and they come up with many rationalizations and justifications for that nevertheless they are deconstructing the text of this principle of public instruction goes back to a philosopher by the name of Martin Heidegger the German philosopher and one of his colleagues of Richmond by the name of Jock and their rental and Heidegger and Derrida together developed this whole hermeneutic of deconstruction which she basically for them whatever your reading doesn't have any meaning and value it yet you just have to make the meeting come out of text results oak whose ever reading the text develops the meaning of the text you deconstruct that the the text now this this approach is now been adopted the approach of deconstruction has been adopted by Leonard Sweet and Brian Claire who are the pushers for the emerging church and so when they present their their sermons in their messages to evangelical Christians and are invited to come into Seventh-day Adventist circles and present their message they basically take the Bible and deconstruct the Bible on the atonement and we sit there and listen to it the principle -based hermeneutic is basically an offshoot of the hermeneutic of the construction by German philosopher Heidegger and a doctorate so you're saying there's quite a difference between someone with deep respect for Scripture finance the local applications and someone with different approach to Scripture find a way to get around to playing a simple command of the Bible find a way to marginalize towards otherwise remove himself from its authority that let's talk that we could put this vulnerability top is your none have much I just want to say that at base of all these questions is the question of inclusive language and whether you can say a a include man or woman and woman for man or whether it all equals each other and in order to get around that question then we have to construct all these other questions to make the what they are doing with their Om substitutions you might say work and so you have to step back and look and say why or why are people asking that you know what supports the bottom motive for asking this is that something were trying to get around or are we truly wanting to know whether we should raise our hands when we worship I think our basic motive for understanding Scripture really has to be what does God really trying to say to us and are we just trying to sidestep something that God is really saying or do we really have the correct modem and in our study and that brings us nicely back to our first statement about the common sense approach to Scripture if we want to obey the Bible 's been written for common sense will really help us get there but if we want to disobey our good sense will help us find lots of ways to get around it and I thank you for sharing that culture doesn't always push us in the wrong direction on the issue of alcohol has never been that today we've risen higher than even the Bible standard is administered we advocate abstinence where in the Bible you can't really say that's the Bible standard that I'm speaking not my own Austin startup sound too scandalous but don't we allow a progress beyond Scripture in the issue of alcohol wine on the issue of women's rights truthfully Eugene I don't believe we do that I don't think we progressed beyond Scriptures because what is in the narrative of Scripture is not the same as what is in the commands of Scripture the commands of Scripture regarding alcohol are very clear and universally negative wine is a marker strong drink is raging whosoever is deceived thereby is not wise there are a number of other passages like that now there are biblical stories about people drinking wine and there is necessarily a word of condemnation delivered there there also Bible stories about people buying and selling slaves and people having more than one wife that doesn't mean God approved the Bible records the words of Satan that doesn't mean that they are instruction for us to live I do not believe that the Bible on the issue of alcohol is inconsistent or a upward trajectory of any kind I think it is quite universal as far as S concern the problem with the deconstruction approach that brother John was referring to an individual who was its principal promoter I keep reminding people of this because I think it's important for us not to forget Martin Heidegger was a devout Nazi that's right who was unrepentant even after the war when he was confronted by survivors of the death camps now why is that important our discussion because it was a cultural thing if we allow culture to drive our theology then why not say file Hitler when it's popular and when it seems to be the road to national stability and what he called he said no one has brought more on the word glory or trend toward greatness in our country that's what he said that's what happens when there is not a transcendent authority to judge culture for when I went to defend the produce room in the work year mentioned they were working in human literature they were not working with the Bible I mean all tied together and every the they what they had in mind just human visitor fund nothing to do with the Bible and I got the less the case on Sunday I don't see a big big problem reediting the old interest for over the creation of somebody else that has been done many times each as fiction it is a whatever but the problem is with those who turned those principles into day hunting off the Bible not domestic I thought is that that that the difficulty which it was also mentioned and that's exactly what McLaren and Sweden arrived is where the problem comes on once they get into it do evangelical churches on Sima last are taken it into the set the Seventh-day Adventist church now on that is the big problem because we in the way I'm not on the making the wrong no use of the for we are missing something then off they thought the God conveyed to us on these is my essay that fully seem for so that as far as zero tolerance is concerned the argument is made we don't have an example look to your command in Scripture so now we have to go outside of the Bible far faith and practice in the Adventist church that's actually not correct Leviticus ten we have an example of the priesthood was not allowed to drink and then in the New Testament John the Baptist and we understand ourselves as a John the Baptist Elijah movement there's also zero-tolerance so all are already within Scripture old and New Testament we have examples of zero tolerance like to comment on that because I totally agree with brother and that we see these examples we indeed have seen truth advancing I think however we need to understand within the context and the construct of the other typical day of atonement because Doctor peters us telling us enough to the members of the emerging church movement Leonard Sweet Brian McLaren their deconstructing the atonement and many have bought into that their drinking the wine of babbling getting drunk but what we need to understand within the construct of the other typical day of atonement there is no explicit command in the Scripture that says abstain from alcohol it says do not be deceived by but as we look in we even understand this movement of women's ordination movement was grown was born out of the temperance movement and the quality movement in the late nineteenth century very interesting how these all came together but the point I'm trying to make here is that when we correctly understand the end it took the phone then the idea of total abstinence is given greater light because when we understand through lucrative Leviticus sixteen the type we understand the area of the type we are to be fasting we are to be praying we are to be afflicting our souls to abstaining from that which is harmful to the soul so that we can have our minds clear to be in union with Christ I'm sure someone out there and all YouTube liar simply they laugh the same get back to the topic of women's ordination but bear with us for a minute when we talk about this issue of alcohol or ask an important question are we progressing from Scripture to something higher or from where we are closer to Scripture and what were saying is that there is no progress beyond Scripture the Scripture is already at the top that the words of God are fewer look like gold in a furnace purified seven times already Scripture is settled God 's words are in heaven just the way they are settled for ever when we talk about progress to progress beyond Scripture all they can really be referring to his progress outside of Scripture ended when it comes to alcohol as an example it was mentioned by Ingo that the priest refused alcohol in parts thirty one kings and princes are refused alcohol and when Paul or Peter describes us in first Peter two he calls us a what type of priesthood a royal priesthood you know in both ways whether as Kings or priests alcohol isn't for Seventh-day Adventist and that's not coming from somewhere outside of Scripture but from right inside the Bible I just thank God that we have that as a basis for you I think sister Laura wants to say something like this on to say that there is such a thing as progress Revelation now does that when I am starting off in the Christian life I don't understand everything and I need to study and I need to grow and as I face black and white truth it's important for money spiritual growth to say yes to God and everything but that is completely different than the kind of trajectory rep that were been talking about it as far social issues as part of the Scripture that is different than a personal progressive growth in the light and what is ours were concerned it's always important for us to be willing to say yes to God in new things that we find in Scripture he willing to accept them after we've studied them thoroughly usually losing this progressive revelation I'm very good roles misunderstanding and some people Dave when they say progressive revelation then they mean the tools is progressing to become up to but actually quite wayfinding that is why is it everywhere is our personal progression in understanding the BB gun tools receipt which is or was complete there is no progress off the tools it is progress off my understanding of the tools on this is not what they think on which would be good they are on this video their friends which make a huge difference really in echo when we may get better at this about often and that we must remember that new light always harmonizes with fields like something like this are available I'd like that selling online so let's do a little testing of some of our own arguments here it's been mentioned already today that Ted Jesus chose twelve disciples and they were all male but many people are also observing there were all Jewish and they're saying that if we are going to use the maleness is an argument why not their Jewish heritage are we taking a descriptive part of the Bible turned to make it prescriptive on the issue women's ordination we can just make your mouth what won't want once again I go back to the fact or we need to go back to the fact that this is a universal biblical principle brunette argument was used when Pope John Paul II said that there would be no women priests because there were no women among the twelve apostles and someone responded in a Time magazine letter well there weren't any Polish people among the twelve apostles is but but here's the difference the point is that through all the Bible the leaders of the faith community have been made if it was only the twelve apostles maybe we might have a case for ambiguity but there is nothing ambiguous here going back to eat which polled users as his template in first Timothy chapter two going through the patriarchs going through the priests going through the apostles and the elders of the New Testament all men this is God 's pattern consistently throughout the biblical record Jewishness is not an issue about it than that that argument would not fly for the simple reason that the biblical record is consistent from the fall from them from before the fall all in all through out the sacred narrative men are the ones God has anointed to lead the flock and insisting a Paul 's and Alan White make gender specific criteria it's explicit she nor Paul make nationality or or other items that issue but gender is written spelled out as an issue here set up and have the other passengers on the issue of gender ordination when I make an issue out of the maleness of the apostles because they fit into a consistent pattern is just one more chain guard chain link in that chain that's exhibit that's exactly right you know it's like what empty Nichols says about Philippians one twenty three of a widower the apostle Paul says I like to depart and be with Christ something some people in the evangelical world use that as evidence of going straight to heaven when you die after you enable systems that were the only verse in the Bible about the statement of a minor case but we have all the other passengers and we put them together the case for the non- immortality of the soul is consistent and the same is true for the case for spiritual male hatchet geocentric and a little repetitive because the issue of hermeneutics is not a complex one that we start with the idea that the Bible was written so it would understand that and if it really is true that there were fifty or sixty different complex clinical principles and understand before we could read the Bible we would never get there that sounds to me as I'm listing to us that what really is required is a humble approach to Scripture to read and believe and practice what's written there and if we have that will get us were going to want to say something has gone in every garden edging just we just have a look at our heritage we estimate the heavens we came from a group of an event people they were looking for the second coming of Christ they went to the disappointment and they searched for the meaning of the disappointment later the time is correct but what happened what really happened Jesus didn't come to something must've happened and as they studied on their knees they were intelligent people what they want scholars by any means and as a study they prayed and they searched and they allows Scripture to interpret itself and all they are although they had disagreements among one another they ultimately would come to a consensus and then it turned out that Illinois would have a vision and she would confirm the consensus and so what they were basically doing was using the Bible and the Bible alone allowing the plain reading of Scripture to be plain and clear and taking it just is a red but when there were disagreements or there were conflicts that would go to all parts of the structure worked out without topic those two basic ideas letting Scripture interpret itself and taking the plane clear meaning of Scripture are keys to understanding structure that's where we come from and that's basically what the William Miller did when he was studying of the prophecies of Daniel and Revelation twenty three hundred days any use a concordance and simply allowing the Bible to interpret itself and so we use the plain reading of Scripture that's basically the real document in a nutshell the Mrs. Bible study this would be a good place to and but we have one more question or two before we do whirl adequate but Laura will say something to forget that question just beyond the administrative years the whole great controversy is built on reformers who sacrifice their life to make the word accessible to common people and when we relegate the Scriptures to scholarship then we are backtracking on relate a whole Reformation I get to preach about that in just a few minutes let's come to our last question at least I suppose it will be written as an final thoughts if we have time but it's over another issue of consistency in the various passages that we quote about women's ordination there are several playing repeated statements even Kevin playing statements that women should be silent should be in silence must not speak should ask their own children of their own children their own husbands at home and I know before we started the panel that my brother right here asked if he could answer this one so I was handed to you and ask you to say something thank you edition usually in use of whether or not a woman is just as able to usurp authority over men why do you allow women to speak in church to send to school for example preach we have all lovely woman in our church up in the UPU Michigan aware I pastor since retirement who was baptized Seventh-day Adventist about ten years ago she has the gift of preaching if she was in one of my preaching classes at the seminary I would give RNA and we user three four times a year but she doesn't usurp the authority of profits up for a we direct from God God chooses profits of a male pastor 's authority is derived from Christ who is the head of the church and therefore has something to say about all the church is organized and functions and was also the head of every man as has been pointed out here today more than once a woman who preaches our authority is delegated authority authority delegated by the male pastor minister and the lady that preaches in our church she recognizes that understands it is committed to the and the church understands it so you have direct authority derived authority and delegated authority is not usurped delegated brother homes is saying that we would be happy to have one prophets in our churches if they were true profits and be aware of other profits because we've had plenty of faults once our history the profits that speak directly for God we would love to have them but when it comes to this issue of first Timothy two and three and first Clintons eleven fourteen we don't think we take the plane reading and we compared passes the passages we don't think those verses are saying that women can't speak ensure a rather that they should not have the oversight of the church 's teaching authority the deposition of overseers reserved vascular reserve to males underneath that authority can be delegated any number responsibilities and outside of the local church there could be many other responsibilities maybe even teaching the seminary or working on some other contacts there's there's there's some other verse verses we need to compare once again comparing Scripture with Scripture as the solution to what Peter says in first Peter chapter three about the dorm up on me and quiet spirit with regard to females does that mean there's there to shut off no it means the spirit of submissiveness in that context is talking about life submitting a husband it doesn't mean they're supposed to shut up the local quietude is not the issue the issue is a spirit of submission the same thing applies the first Thessalonians four eleven where it says studying to be quiet and enjoy your own business seventy don't talk know it it has to do with a spirit of respect and submissiveness and out as far as the teaching of Sabbath school this is important because there are two different types of teaching in the New Testament there is an intuitive for words the word in first Timothy chapter two verse twelve which is I suffer not a woman to teach that word is a word that denotes administration and governance and it is only used for women on two other occasions in the New Testament in times two four where it speaks of women teaching other women and also in Revelation chapter two verse twenty where it speaks about the church of five fire permitting that woman Jezebel to teach okay though now there's another word though which refers to instruction and expounding that word is found in acts chapter eighteen verse twenty six with well and Priscilla teaching policy now that I believe is what we would put in the category of Bible instructors Sabbath school teachers by teachers and in our schools all of these are still under the authority of e-mail administrators can this is very good and very interested by war and go to say something so I can close my closing thoughts go ahead and my closing thought as I've discovered the Bible is sufficient to define its own terms and we do that with the word hell we do that with the word Sabbath we do that with the word forever and and the list goes goes on comparing Scripture with Scripture clarifies it but you have to study and read so we began this panel discussion about your prescient analysts just tell the free and let the liquid part about this for many hours and that that every questions this touching something that matters and that they started it but the help and together they've come to the same conclusion that day we would come to the same conclusions we began with a quote I read that to you again which I think it's highly relevant over saying here the Bible with its precious gems of truth was not written for the scholar alone on the contrary it was designed for the common people and interpretation given by the common people when aided by the Holy Spirit accords best with the truth as it is in Jesus we are looking for ways to get around the Bible were not looking for historical or cultural excuses to Norman God has to say were not trying to progress beyond the Bible because the Bible is the ultimate source of truth it is the standard were trying to get to it were learning the refined as we study some things were there therefore local application surname is not allowed to build the Temple of Solomon is allowed the building there are things at different person-to-person place to place what you've heard here is that it's not left to our women are feeling to know what is personal and what is universal the text itself has been counts the passages themselves show us what is for every church and what is for a local application and if we will approach the Bible in that humble way take the time it takes to look for those parallel passages it will start to ask in the spirit to guide us to know will come to the same conclusion in the Bible isn't obscure if anyone is going to do his will he will know of the doctrine or speak of God or whether I speak of myself I'm thankful for the way God guides his church the way he's can continue to do it and Mejia in two thousand fifteen the distal final resolution on this point and endless foreheads for closing prayer our father in heaven I ask you to finish the work he started on this plan to use us to partisans yes in the name of Jesus and this media was brought audio nurse early website dedicated to spreading God 's word through reading sermon audio and much more we would like to know more about our universe is much more assertive in www. on universal .org

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