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11- Regional Ordination: A Path to Congregationalism?

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  • October 3, 2014
    7:30 PM
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welcome to our second home discussion we like to say we've had a wonderful time here at the woman's symposium were so glad that you have joined us today I have a group of wonderful gentleman beside me here and let each one introduce themselves that before we began I would just like to offer a word of prayer kind father in heaven we are so privileged to be part of your people we don't understand all the wheels within wheels of your governance and your organization but with thankful that you are at the helm and that we can trust everything you and that you have given us a guidebook that will very clearly tell us where we should be going and so we depend on you for that so as we discussed this important topic we ask for your Holy Spirit to do with this thank you in Jesus name amen my name is Laurel Don state I'm from theory and Springs Michigan and I'm very happy to be here with you I am muttering also I am getting the following to cut the conforming but presumably I come to you my last work and the church was found on some of our associate Secretary of the General conference well my name is Stephen Bohr definitely not a good last name for a preacher and I'm the president of secrets unsealed and also the senior pastor of Fresno Central Center Baptist Church here in Fresno California I sleep in my own bed during this symposium I'm renting homes retired seminary faculty member for twenty years I live in the upper Peninsula of Michigan and retirement pastoring a small church which is less than a mile from my last Lutheran church but is on John peters from Pennsylvania originally from San Diego California and I'm a pastor in the Pennsylvania conference I'm Kevin Paulson I have served as an evangelist is a pastor and as a revivalist and is only awaiting reassignment in ministry eliminate Jim Howard and am a pastor in Michigan conference in thoroughly enjoying my time in California I am English sort deal originally from Germany but not living south of Dallas I'm a professor of religion at Southwestern Adventist University so gentlemen we have lately heard from the seminary Seventh-day Adventist seminary that Christ is indeed headed the church and I don't think any of us would disagree with that but we also know that he has delegated his authority to his stewards here on earth and this is a career going to be discussing today is the government of this body of believers the Seventh-day Adventist church and we would just like to begin by giving us a little background a little history to know where we've come from how it all started started with just a group of believers in eighteen forty five four didn't need a government but very soon things began to look like maybe we did need some government and so on I would like to speak to the question first of all brief history of the something ominous church organization beginning in eighteen sixty three and then how things changed in nineteen oh one would like to offer this it is interesting when we think about the history of the church because we begun without any organization are Charlie thinking that the organization was not appropriate but to see we soon discovered that we have a mission it do it to it is required for us to discover .co but quickly discovered that week we hop hop omission then you have to organize your army to conquer the world because it was the Cold War the objective of this mission and the West such a small group of people that must lift off to eighteen forty four experience and fitted over fifty thinking on the Cold War inside this amazing but it was the Lord who was giving the commission on for the Lord 's work is very small so she did it once with twelve but quite not with fifty three so the organization claiming fifteen six do you see me was the year when we begun to exist a son organized body from Darrell on many experiences finding their way tool hobbit strong I'm what established on the we begun with of some unit self organization the conference is good to mean on the orders of the General conference is but also we rule we needed on other kind of organization that means adopted to we are talking and it to come about half a century for us to get to do live off costs of meeting another it is a organization and that gaming on in their general conference of nineteen oh one and I'm going to prefer Elizabeth to reduce decision because of that time there are a reorganization of the church came on this the Department of the church were organized in a very essential way they were ready workings many of the departments but brother independent web preached each other on some of them even from the center so no one of them came in one unit I also see unions were established under the unknowns were given some kind of autonomy to work the decision decisions would be made find out in a date human liver before every decision from the church around the world well stake into the general conference on visit our conference made up but by just a few men soul aid developers in bed stuff all crying depths the centralized power I will not use any other word that could be induced the wrong because of the day did the garlic of the men inside but it must centralize all and then there was a neat tool this centralized the power coming closer to where the church is where soul doth ride that unions were organized this to us given Saddam Pollard of decision within the unity of the body some people today talking about the power of the UN knows which are flying out of undeserved comfort and thus a half any of our two new either there the unions or change whatever the Germans decide this was not the intention I read the book this was a way as a unit were established in nineteen oh one hundred because a way that your nose worked several years for our century more than a century without typing a name of questions deluded in a conference I mean it was we did the unity of the whole body of the church were born on the now they're coming with a few a few on that the Venables humans a few unions because from it and they were most of the places are just the same half a dozen working since nineteen oh one up to this and so this concept that the union half the flour typical mind that George Dean area that without intervention from the General conference on design group including the division because the division is an extension of the general conference of this is not from nineteen oh one oh one North Frome Dave and policies neither from the philosophy of organization of the church I save oodles of truth hides educate the geology because this is corrosive to the reality on the Wii are working as a body in the homework on that the authority of the church is not in the fuel the organizational bodies but in the member substitute are you sure you want was done in nineteen oh one West then shown the bill for the unplowed of the church was based in the members on the Genoa conference in session because he declared their representation of the members of the church of the work is present then that is the highest power the beach before God I mean that God is there highest on from there on the people didn't do the members of the church so this is how it has been organized on it doesn't work and that a nicety so far unwieldy that these would continue to be the way Elder will elder also it helps to keep in mind that just as local churches are responsible for the discipline of local members so our union conferences responsible for deciding who is qualified to be ordained to the gospel ministry however just as local churches are not permitted to develop their own standards for the discipline of members and are obligated to adhere to the policies established by the Seventh-day Adventist Church manual which of course are voted by the General conference in session the same principle applies to the unions and ordination the world body of Seventh-day Adventists through the General conference working policy is what decides on standards for pastoral ordination and the unions are obligated to adhere to those standards just as local obligated to adhere to the church manual standards when it comes to the discipline of members and for those who might not be aware of it on page one thirteen one one three of the current edition of the General conference working policy one that is dated for the years two thousand thirteen and two thousand fourteen in on that page of the General conference working policy it says that appointments to positions as chaplains departmental directors or pastors shall not be limited by race or color neither shall these be limited by gender except those requiring ordination of the gospel ministry thank you I'd like to backup just a minute back into the history of little bit please somebody explain to me about the overall structure or we'd like a higher key like the Roman Catholic Church or are and sometimes you hear that being said you know like we have a pope and that how do we discuss and refer to the government of Berkshire I don't want to answer your question but I want to make an observation in the light of what Doctor Veloso and my friend Kevin have sent I have been since especially since I been involved in this issue I have been fascinated by the makeup of the early group that we refer to as the pioneers just a handful of people that God had impressed on call there is not one of them PhD not one of them was trained in the biblical languages their methodology to find out what the truth was that God wanted to impress upon their minds and hearts was twofold study the Bible and pray her now I'm sure that their discussions were lively differences of opinion perhaps but the more they discuss the more they prayed they were able to hammer out as God hammered it in the doctrines upon which this church is found not one PhD among them lay people honored to present perhaps pastors this article but mostly late people together soon to say something about the whole concept of hierarchy as it sometimes being referred to him I think that the idea there is that the general carbs president has influence over all the decisions of the church and actually ends up being the one who makes them regardless of everything that happens that he's going to make the decisions I can understand that because from a local pastoral standpoint of some members who sometimes feel that way they feel other pastors is good to do with the pastor wants to do but the weight of the seven them as churches build beautiful because I will have the authority to do that I I cannot even yell the meal even say to me watching put so-and-so is an elder put so that I don't do that the nominee you may does that then and the church board makes major decisions but it is a really major decision the church of the session has to make it I can't I can't discipline someone I can do any of that am all that happens by representation from the whole church and in the same way as Doctor Veloso mentioned on the worldwide church has representatives from the entire church at General conference session and it really does serve as the authority and just so that I could just a personal observation about the theology or nation study committee I have been very impressed us to watch elder Wilson personally as we had wonderful conversations listen to papers from all different viewpoints and got to know each other this is a wonderful experience all the way around and learning how to love each other you don't agree you know is really good and one thing I really appreciated was Elder Wilson just didn't say a word hardly I mean only when he had to answer something related to the administration or what have you there I've seen no attempts or even suggestions of trying to assert what his particular view may be in most worlds are to much of the rotors were not even know what his viewers because he has simply allow the process to take place so that the church can come to its decision as a body and so I just really appreciate the makeup of the church I would like to remind us of a quote from the third volume of the testimonies four ninety two at this point a white says I have been shown that no man 's judgment okay would be elder Wilson or any union president or anybody should be surrendered to the judgment of any one man okay were not by individuals pastors had anybody but when that judgment of the General conference which is five highest authority that God has upon the earth is exercised private independence and private judgment must not be maintained but must be surrendered your air or wasn't persistently maintaining your private judgment of your duty against the voice of the highest authority the Lord has upon the earth so we as a people really are not controlled by one person but it's all a representative type of government inlet side deal with that on practical terms you know it's been said that the new decision not to ordain women to the gospel ministry has come from the General conference as if the administrators of the General conference have imposed this upon the church but the fact is that this decision doesn't come from up down it come from down because two general conference sessions nineteen ninety nineteen ninety five were all of the delegates of the world church were gathered together they said no to the request of the North American division and so not ordaining women is the will of the world church through its representatives it is not a decision that has been handed down from above and imposed like a dictatorship because our system of organization is a representative weight we are not an Episcopal style of organization like the Catholic Church we are not a congregational type where the everything resides in the local congregation we are representative world church and that's the only way that a world church can function is unrepresentative like there's another way that it can function and the this is how do we with a representative group that is so diverse from all over the world still keep together as a global church this is a very crucial question at this time because different people have very strong opinions as we see but what is holding us together as a global church but let me respond first of all oral to your reference to three volume through the testimonies page four ninety two because there is no doubt there and there will be individuals watching this panel through whatever means they have who are going to remember that there were a number of Ellen White's statements that were made later that at least on the surface appeared to contradict OR to change her position when in fact they did not the only thing that Ellen White changed as she later would explain in volume nine of the testimonies pages two sixty into sixty one which was written in nineteen oh nine the only point where there is been some variance was when the General conference had been controlled illegitimately by one individual or a small group of individuals and when they had usurp authority for themselves then Ellen White said no we can't accept the general conference is the voice of God but at no time did she say that the general conference in session had ceased to be the voice of God and in volume nine pages two sixty two sixty one which was her address before the General conference in the year nineteen oh nine she repeated almost word for word the statement in volume three page four ninety two and I think it's very important for people to bring that out because on both sides you must theological spectrum there are than individuals who have tried to deed to denigrate the authority of the General conference and dismiss it as corrupt and irrelevant of these kinds of issues on the basis of some of those statements that Ellen White wrote subsequent to the one in volume three of the testimonies but because they haven't considered the statement in volume nine they have come away confused and done but to specifically before we move on to address the point to ask you know let's be clear that our task as God 's people is not to keep everybody together unity according to the prayer of our Lord in John chapter seventeen is the consequence of sanctification through the father 's word of truth before Jesus prayed in verse twenty one of John seventeen that they all may be one he prayed in verses seventeen and nineteen that they be sanctified through the truth unless there is that sanctification through the word of truth there will not be the unity for which our Lord prayed let us not pretend that the consequences of the coming year are going to leave everybody content and together in all likelihood they will not but our goal as God 's faithful people and as leaders of the Lord 's flock is not superficial togetherness our duty is strict and unbending faithfulness allow me a brief anecdotal perspective on this I did not grow up in the Seventh-day Adventist church and as a teenager I spend a year with anadromous family is the next exchange student from Germany and I was attracted to the church by the love of the people and a very key element was just plain love genuine Christian courtesy extended to me but somebody could say you can find that in a motorcycle club stamp collectors birdwatchers at a sense of the of unity in and loving each other and accepting each other even though I think Christian love exceeds any club experience but there was another element that attacked me to the church and made me follow through with my decision to get baptized and that was something external of humans it wasn't just love it was truth there was an objective element and the and the Scriptures played a key role in that experience back to a Seventh-day Adventist together and I've experienced this unity not just on the Fellowship basis or reduced to haystacks but but that was a doctrinal unity that you can make expensive taste when you travel around the world and this context that led to share a quote with you it comes from the gospel workers page ninety two the eighteen ninety two edition of very brief quote yes of the Holy Spirit Christ would open more clearly to those who will believe on him that which he has inspired holy men to write concerning the truth and it is thus that the unity for which Christ prayed is to be affected we had to receive sanctification and Kevin mentioned that already through obedience to the Word and the Spirit of truth now here comes listen to this week him surrender the truth in order to accomplish this union for the very means by which it is to be gained is sanctification is the truth human wisdom would change all this thinking the spaces of union to narrow men would affect a union through conformity to put popular opinions through a compromise with the world but truth is God 's bases for the unity of these people don't feel my funder and go I was told that tomorrow afternoon as well some things might have to be quoted twice repetitive presentation of the truth is a feature of the symposium and it is an imperative I think that we have seen that truth is really something that can find this and said global church you see a brother or sister in Africa in Thailand anywhere we should feel at home talking about things there should be a warmth between us because we we see things the same way and it's very exciting when you meet a brother or a sister and you see things the same way there's just nothing like it did make me mad just add a PS at having come to the administered from the outside I've been in denominational work now for twenty years I've noticed a trend when I came to the Adventist church doctrine was something beautiful we were proud of truth and the seventh day the Sabbath though the last few years I I'm I'm sensing that truth is something cold and and to be abandoned and all we need is Jesus have do we need Jesus absolutely him discovered that that Jesus and Doctor meant to go together Jesus is the author of truth all of all fundamental but believes find their centering in Jesus Christ and and I would be scared and I resist this artificial separation of Jesus and doctrine a man had to do and say something just a brief comment unity is based on common beliefs not on the common mission mission goals alt although beliefs amen excellent what hasn't really gotten us interested in this whole governance thing is maybe this women's ordination question on some of our unions have lately faced a very specific issues along this area namely Columbia Union and Pacific Union and as a local person here just like to ask you for a little inside track into what you saw Elder bore as you experience us I know you are even one of the constituency meetings please would you share the event took place in August of two thousand twelve I was a delegate so I had a firsthand knowledge of what was happening there I just like to say that appeared more like a political rally that it didn't spiritual meeting where there was good be a lot of prayer in making a very important decision I just like to read what the yield bylaws say and then I would like to read how they propose to change the bylaws the bylaws of the union read all policies per process and procedures of this union shall be in harmony with the working policies and procedures of the North American division in the general conference of Seventh-day Adventists so basically all policies shall be in harmony but to the session was taken this change and this is how it read in general the policies purposes and procedures of the union will be in harmony not Shelby shows stronger word will be in harmony with the working policies and procedures of the month North American division in the general conference of Seventh-day Adventists so they wanted to change the bylaws in order to approve women's ordination because they only had to be in harmony with the bylaws in general so they attempted to change the law but they lost their with sixty five percent to thirty five percent one percent and one more percentage point and they would have passed the change in the bylaws now when they were not successful in changing the bylaws a conference president had been I've actually written I'm in the process of writing on this side like to read what I've written when the vote to change the bylaws failed by just four votes one of the conference presidents which happens to be ours here in central California courageously stood up to question whether the session could go forward with the second motion to ordain candidates without regard to gender I'm if they could change the bylaws I have to be in harmony with the policies of the NAB and the general conference he argued that the de la Salle would be illegal because the bylaws require that all policies purposes and procedures of this Union shall be in harmony with the working policies and procedures on the North American division and the general conference and seventh avenues of the conference president 's point of order was quickly disposed of by the parliamentarians who by the way were paid employees of the union conflict of interest questionnaire in the chair that it would be perfectly proper to go on with the second vote notably the parliamentarians were lawyers that were remunerated by the union which of course was a clear conflict of interest and so by a vote of seventy nine percent to twenty one percent of the constituency session approved vote number two which was to ordain individuals without regard to gender thus violating their own policy because it were able to change the policy and it online on the monopolizing a lot of time here but I will I want to share one other thing once we go down this road you set a very dangerous precedent in changing the policies and to give you an example in the Bible tithing is a principal that applies to everyone everywhere right we all agree diving is a principal listen up the distribution of the tithe is a policy matter the way in which the tithe is distributed is a policy matter is decided what percentages go to the conference what percentage was the union what percentage goes to the GC what percentage goes to the division now if the union is able to change the policies of the down denomination regarding the ordination of women what would keep a local church from saying we don't agree with the Wallace says were supposed to send almond eyes to the conference worldliness and fifty percent of the dice of the conference do you think the conference would sit by and say well you know the church is totally autonomous and you know they have decision-making power so they can decide to keep fifty percent of the guys I rather doubt it so once you do it I'm a union level it becomes a problem of individual level it becomes a problem on a confidence level it becomes a nightmare in their other issues down the road that are going to face us and if we don't abide by the policies you know Ellen White says it was that that were supposed to take the Bible not only in doctrine but also in practice both of those things so that's basically what happened in the Pacific area and eyes as well as the twenty can anybody imagine the chaos that this would unleash an world were only seen the first the first fragmentation from fragmentary evidences of this but by the way it's not just chill unions let's remember that the Netherlands Union has also voted not only to consider its commission ministers synonymous with ordained ministers may have also voted to accept practicing homosexuals into the fellowship of the church which is totally contrary to the word of God and to the fundamental beliefs of the Seventh-day Adventist church so what you really have in the case of these three unions are actions that are completely illegal based not only upon the Seventh-day Adventist Church manual and the fundamental beliefs that are stated there also on the basis of the general conference and North American division working policies which absolutely mandate that unions and local conferences be in strict harmony in the work there Shelby now will be Shelby and harmony with the policies of the worldwide body of Seventh-day Adventists in general conference assembled there there is no legal way that a union can put in its bylaws the proposal that failed by four votes here in the Pacific Union and which I understand some time ago had actually been voted in the Columbia union that is a completely illegal action vague to put the words in general I get all I appreciated what Doug Batchelor said at that session because I was watching it remembered some of you may have heard what he said when he observed that how would a husband and a wife feel the marriage altar if the file taken said in general I will keep myself did the only company of the ladies there would appreciate that kind of ambiguity for the man for that I know this is absurd what were talking about these are illegal actions and the fact of the matter is that as the president of the General conference stated there will have to be grave consequences if I could like to read a letter that was sent to the president of the Pacific Union before the constituency session because it shows a picture of local churches understand what's involved here this is from a letter that was written for my church within Southern California territory this bylaw will have effectively been changed from a command to comply with GCN and eighty policy into a nonbinding description of what the policies will generally be obviously these changes go far beyond female ordination if you approve this by change you will give the Pacific union permission not to comply with NAB NGC policies and procedures whenever it shows is not to comply this is essentially secession from the world church trying and able to go on to say we believe that the proposed change to the bylaws has such serious ramifications for the future of the churches in the Pacific Union conference in a much broader scope than the current issue of ordination policy that we urge leadership and executive committees to re-examine the process that is being used to expand ordination policy and seek process process solutions that are not based on the philosophy of Congregationalism either intentionally or unintentionally and this is the last paragraph of what to change the bylaws as proposed would certainly be seen as a victory by some well-meaning people however if it happens we believe it will be sweet in the mouth bitter in the belly and potentially create a major fracture in the church so says a local church in this union will I seek time is running short your and I better get a word in edge wise before we close what we've been talking about here are policies and what the unions have been doing and these are important issues but we still have a major problem on even if the unions had voted appropriately and not to go in emerging we still would've had the problem and the problem is commissioned pastors commission women pastors the problem here is the authority of God 's word and this is where we come back to the General conference session the General conference highest authority in voting now the issue of electing women as local elders was something that was adopted by an annual Council nineteen eighty four the Spring Council in nineteen seventy five both of those policies most policy decisions that were incorporated into policies were not in harmony with Scripture in other words they were not voted in a general conference session so were dealing here with a doctrinal issue so is immaterial with the unions have been doing or haven't been doing the real issue is what does the worldwide church want to do with the authority of Scripture that's why this twenty fifteen General conference session is so important the issue needs to be addressed what does the Bible say who was qualified to serve in the office of elder and minister in the church must make a decision once and for all the muscle back in nineteen seventy five and not allow a small group of men to determine a dictate Scripture with Scripture says it must be determined by the representatives the entire world field and I would like to suggest that out of this issue with the unions came the request for that toss community and this was a session that needed to take place in order to for everyone to be able to understand that it was a theological issue it wasn't just governments does anybody want to share that process and that representation and this situation that we faced when we were in the toss committees him I think the present of the General conference explained it well to us in our final meeting several months ago those of us were on the committee will certainly remember this he made it very clear that the membership of the committee was not intended to be geographically representative of the world church had it been so these straw vote it was that was taken and by the way that is all that it was there are those who will try to represent that as an official motion or action when it was nothing of the kind you know some of us should've been sharp enough frankly they are at that meeting to demand that not be taken because we know exactly how it was going to be spun by certain individuals but the point of the matter is elder Wilson said that the makeup of the committee was designed to reflect those regions of the world body where this debate has been most intense namely North America Europe and Australia the developing countries of the world that by the way is barely fifteen percent of the worldwide advent of mine that's right and so the point of the point is that the reason the members were chosen about eighty percent of the members of the committee were from North America or or I think from other developer Bob developed regions of the field and that was not because of representation it was because this is where the discussion is taken place and it was the design of the General conference president and his officers that all of the views in the church being aired on our committee our committee was not a legislative body it is purely or was purely advisory even this is not less than half as I read was awesome by the community laptop on a described in the name of the community dated five of .pdf 's just for David D'Amato on going to a quite another loss Auckland since those moves reached into his process of starting your donation of women are joining there was no authority of any kind that are in the committee authority I mean in the sense of making decisions of the decision-making power of the church belongs to visit our conference session on thought is where it should be done all the thing about this the ordination of women editors we hot tool auctions one taken and the spring meeting of ninth nineteen seventy nine on the other one came in God have found some of eighteen nineteen eighty four quite the we begun with the spring meeting but his horse strategy because the spring meeting Dawson for representation from the word feel in visit our conference executive committee but eight high schooler on administrative representation from the North American division soul builder where the main minority Diaz the goalie is the representations from it was very easy did they come not from the community normally this items never are thinking into the origin half the spring never when it is done it is done for the unbaked is what the purpose now twenty one it was made the decision updated the meetings South Daniels gone so in nineteen eighty four on the time something was very interesting the top we were preparing home for the dental costs of the forthcoming as you and salt in the recommendations of left groin Kabul it says Sean Holsten nine nineteen eighty five people us supposed to blow the site and tool of this session because though she would have to be approved by the system in order to go to the church month because his amount and that belongs to the church but you all there are always people resolving the processes on it going a group we don't know how many and all who were doing the work but after thinking an action on a fuel hours after the in the evening the game idea and for discussion the same auction on our Charlie Whittemore shown to decide the mother not sensitive to the social on generate so he would even never went to the session does quite it never went through such on if it is not in the church money on it is illegal unless it would take it a thought process which is not yet finished it would be finished of the system on dusk why the word field didn't accept the decision they didn't want to practice just a few divisions actually begun to appoint women elders the rest of the world nothing because for instance one it is not biblical circle and you do not dig on within the policies of the church so the work didn't want to go and dominate the process and then decided not to elect practice fortitude got the DSS of all our notion of vague general conference on your concert on videos this drink also but never a session of the general conference therefore actually are these we do not approve in the Seventh-day Adventist church facility approved on the other session you're talking about local elders look at others yes this is what we had been at the moment I'm just one-sided update 's unilateral actions have been very alarming to me because it states that we might as well quit talking about unity I'm not only that what are the ultimate implications is that kind of procedure methodology is continued for the local congregation local church and bolt doorway with tithing it'll just one example of what stock keeping Sunday with the rest of the Christian world and all of you this is very critical the theology of ordination study committee you can not accused elder will smokestack in that committee and had a very fair representations of all kinds of opinions in the end people you also have to keep in mind that straw poll was I've notices interpreted different ways people immediately jump to the conclusion over the majority is in favor of women's ordination you can also turn that statistic around say no two thirds of that committee is in stable male leadership so I want to encourage you to be very careful with premature conclusions and I think some division committees were stacked from the start but the bias and those numbers that come out of those committees with majority reports minority reports you have to keep that in context that is a very small group people that produces the labels majority minority I want to conclude on a personal note this theology of study of ordination study committee forced me to study this issue from scratch with the Bible spirit of prophecy and prayer and I was very helpful for me personally I want to read a statement that was published in the Pacific Union recorder leading up to the union constituency session which to me is very disturbing maybe we should and those disturbing note so that people do some research that is what it says the world church adopts common baptism baptism follows and membership policies but only the local church has final authority to decide who will and will not be a member in a particular local church the church manual says that working on the Sabbath is a reason that a member may be disfellowshipped but only the local church has the authority to decide if a member who is working on Sabbath will actually be a B disfellowshipped the decision of the local church cannot be mandated or vetoed by the local conference union division or juice DC that goes right along with what Doctor Holmes was say dangerous precedent when you when you say the power resides only in the local church are only in the union etc. so you know this type of thing that is published in official denominational publications is disturbing and I think that it shows that ultimately this will result women's ordination if is adopted you know will lead to Congregationalism which would not be to worry about the gadgets tools though we are faced this bug remember this is God 's insurance and that have that which will not be discouraged and by when I'm preaching I said to the members stay here in the modern world because it it is coming a dime when those who do not belong to the church wizard be taken out entirely leaving the church us before from PR going out people from Bobby don't would be coming in sight to those who are going to be saved are going to be united to go in I do not get together within the run that may be people saying that we are about to end our history and the work we not had the confidence to conduct all I don't really want to and we pray our heavenly father thank you for your blessing summed to form the Bible is silent for the Holy Spirit son to forward the power of your weeding that we decide everything for us and we are bringing to accept whatever you are there to church pray for the delegates on praying for every member Jesus made this you want my body over the website dedicated to spreading God 's word through reading sermon audio and much more you would like to know more about our universe is like the more certain in the visit www. .com universe .org

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