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12- Reply to NAD and Other Pro-Women's Ordination Arguments

Dojcin Zivadinovic


Dojcin Zivadinovic

Doctoral Candidate Church History, Andrews University


  • October 3, 2014
    7:30 PM
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whenever one my name is going to human being in which I'm from Croatia Mister Angers University when finishing my doctoral dissertation I want to welcome you to our symposium for all for women's relation and this presentation I will I was given myself the task to make a constructive criticism of fate particularly well-written paper should one be ordained as pastor Old Testament considerations that it was presented at the theology over the nation study committee on July twenty second twenty four last year two thousand thirteen it's one of the best acres pro women's ordination it is a very hot topic in our church and unfortunately dividing us as a church and we want we don't want to division we want to be united and in this presentation I want to give a constructive and letting criticism off that particularly paper before I start representation of what make sure that I'm not attacking or offending anybody supports this view are people who wrote this particular article I station that the authors of presentation this is not sources then we're altogether we don't believe in the three angels message we all believe in our Adventist truths we believe Jesus coming soon we just want to figure this out so we can serve better to our Lord Jesus so if this is us and us we want to understand the truth and we're just discussing this in the civil polite manner different ways of seeing the Scriptures with that being said as well before I start representation I don't want my forcible arguments and or anybody's forces of arguments to determine the persuade anybody it's not the argument though persuade anybody and we try to argue this issue a lot but the spirit of prophecy has told us is not the force of the argument but the force of the was there over the souls at this point I really want to ask for the Holy Spirit as we can bow our heads and especially those who want to an Internet to YouTube and other networks I've traded to open your hearts for the Holy Spirit to prayer letters by heads father God thinks from being in the midst I praise the father that you give us your Spirit and we can understand the truth father give us loving hearts to love one another because love is the central doctrine of Scripture women's of the nation is an extension of headship principle which you have also given your love as well so we want to understand that after the fella please help us to understand the truth and I pray for you Holy Spirit to touch our hearts are not arguments I pray this in Jesus name amen all right this is a very large paper that I am analyzing the title the papers again should woman beer Dana 's pastors Old Testament considerations and that paper you can find it on the Genoa conference and the archives you can freely downloaded and read it and the wood it's eighty eight pages almost three hundred thirty footnotes and twenty two page long bibliography this voluminous paper is hardly one of the best if not the best paper presented by a proponent of women's a donation to the theology of the nation study committee the committee is appointed by the General conference of seven added this for the purpose of addressing issues relative to the nation and gender roles in ministry and this paper is considered as one of the best in the representative defense of the problem in the nation cap and and costs as it deserves special treatment analysis I listed this paper can be fun and archives you can download it however in spite of its volume in much positive insight the paper presents a major challenge is to discriminate it for the purposes of investigation I will now subsequent subsequently referred to this paper as document S because it starts with S should woman their name cellular referred this paper as document S is about talk a lot about this document contains in a great number of also exegetical flood and I say this with some humility we can all make errors and mistakes even in my analysis I can make mistakes in pinpointing those in physical flaws but I believe there's some exegetical fuzzing hermeneutical flows within a discuss those it is the purpose of this of this presentation to expose exegetical and hermeneutical weaknesses of this document and to offer and innovation of its margin are more major arguments in favor of the utilitarian so-called repair and you gender roles found in Genesis one to three so for the purposes of time this presentation will not explore numerous positive points made in the paper there's many good and positive points the document also has many valuable conclusions and even refute some weak arguments that are made viable by proponent opponents of women's a nation at we cannot just have time to mention all those but they are also for the purpose of space and time this paper will not comment on every single week or or some erroneous argument I met with advanced document the focus of this presentation will remain in pointing some major exegetical and hermeneutical flaws number one seventy four a weaving stipend from another close one with Pamela Saddam it's not going to judgment on the spirituality of the author or the authors of the writer of the article with those who support his conclusions there is a very good man in history of our church will have had some views that they were erroneous and white-hot to telling James like another great pioneers they had some mistakes and the conclusion and I'm not pretending IMail and white here trying to point to this conclusion but we is a brotherly dialogue strengthened to stay with the truth this admin first some hermeneutical flaws inspired off of very firm and his background and sincere commitment to the hermeneutical framework that was voted at the nineteen eighty same six the General conference annual consult entitled methods of Bible study this document we call document S I called is inhabited with several ideas that the high from the traditional Adventist hermeneutics would have voted nineteen eighty six surgical methods of Bible study of the church but this document does claim that is fully supporting those those discriminates but maybe intentionally it's the hiding from it and we will look at this right now seven the island 's exit Jesus firmly supports the view that both old and New Testament are equally divinely divinely guided in both their content and their final reduction and deadbolt must be consulted as interpreting standards in other ways we can just read the writings of Moses without consulting the writings of Paul and vice versa there they are complementing each other so number one the major hermeneutical flying the document as is this unfortunate tendency to limit the hermeneutic of the fixed solely on the scope of Genesis one to three and that this is actually pandemic in the women's ordination proponents approach a lot of the purported I have very often demonstrated this bread is position the divorce inspired text from other text discussing the role of women in the church and family and on the life and independently from the blogroll by biblical consensus that this can be particularly observed within the bounds of this document in the land king 's position the paper does not once make use of polls inspired reading of Genesis one three we only have one inspired commentary besides I like inspired commentary in the Bible on the Genesis account is not used to interpret the text instead there's a lot of other liberal scholars are used to interpret Genesis one three when Paul wrote to the Corinthians in first Corinthians then a man was not made from woman but woman from an he was referring to the creation of Eve in Genesis still from when Paul said I was for first and then leave he's interpreting the order of creation in Genesis one and two again when Paul affirmed one ocean remains quiet and churches like the law commands what the law is referring to he's referring to the what is called the law of the Old Testament and that the Torah the first five books of Moses most definitely Genesis one to three these fixed which it clearly interpret Genesis are disappointingly not permitted to assist the presentation in this document this tendency to divorce Moses and Paul falls suddenly maybe unintentionally but it falls suddenly into the category of historical critical scholarship one could argue okay well yes but the scope of the paper was already being again and it was not to cover the writings of Paul okay fair however I would argue that within three hundred and thirty footnotes of citing and quoting the opinions of different scholars consider the liberal someplace were inspired for the Holy Spirit to a possible with anything but besides the document quotes Alan White extensively so that to say that it was just on the writings of Moses and not go anywhere else it's not just strong enough argument so but document is willing to do proper hermeneutic Scriptures in Scripture but it fails to do it appropriately it doesn't really do it it says that one of the Scriptures which I will compare all the Bible evidence but it fails to do it this leads me to the second hermeneutical problem with this article there is an extensive usage of critical feminist scholarship in the paper to be fair the author quotes almost everything so to be fair he quotes almost everything that is written now there are a very great scholarship work he worked he read a lot of things including a good number of legitimately conservative scholars sure however that when it comes to crucial segments of the paper the racially slanted very slanted which when discusses major arguments in regards to complement him Mrs. Edwards have you keep always quotes the need to repair and critical liberal feminist scholarship to support his views he could his look of a possible plausibility said this is dangerous I want a safer and discolored to draw so heavily from the systems of Babylon seeking support for his thesis so just think about what kind of support are you getting for your conclusion so when you see all this liberal some people don't even believe in effective the Bible and they supporting what you said you start re-examining if you are saying it's really respecting integration of the wordwrap especially troubling is documents fondness for there is a certain hermeneutic that it's called redemptive movement hermeneutic as follows by some evangelic all eyes with feminist then this is on page twenty eight of the document contributor yourself and many other pages the hermeneutic motto called redemptive movement has found its most particular defendant in the William J Webb in his book slaves women and homosexuals documents exploring hermeneutics of cultural cultural analysis and this book is quoted about at least in Congress by the author of the document wet argues that the biblical teachings a male head shipping marriage and male leadership in the church were simply points along the path toward superior to that described in Genesis the Bible teachings on particular subject such as mail headship are only a ploy and along the way to want to develop in the final and ultimate ethic visa leads to dangerous conclusions that the Scripture is not enough conclusive on many ethical questions and we need to go beyond the Bible in order to determine certain practices or beliefs in the church this is the basic argument of a Roman Catholicism projecting seventy seven they say that it's not conclusively just the point along the way the truth is progressive and the Bible is the truth the thousand years ago and now we're moving forward and every single Sunday catchup yes it's in the Bible but we move beyond this is very dangerous argument that many other districts thousands of redemptive movement the hermeneutics so now unless it is a good redemptive movement if you are calling oh eight hermeneutics it is a sort of Scripture with Scripture when explaining Jesus said I'm because of hardness of your heart Moses allowed you to divorce your wife on something with reasons but he wasn't selling the beginning of Jesus is there some movements that was assigned the beginning there was a car of of sensing practices on his car got tried to control that like polygamy and wars and an different things and it wasn't God 's will but for temporary allowance was provided for the scene for example when they wanted the king but he was assigned the beginning Jesus it is a principle so I want to go back to the beginning subversion Gold redemption movement of what you have to prove his what was in the beginning and also noted that he also have to prove that the Bible somewhere along the way the Old Testament is to go to the beginning but in the New Testament the hatchet texts are not saying of you know this was that this was that no mail catchup was just that point along the way but now I want you to go where everybody's at this and the hatchet fixing it is even stronger so they're not telling us they're not giving us this movement with interested there is included at the weather rates there's also this is abuse you abuse this hermeneutic the standard is often describing even assemble one and number two New Testament the Bible or further integration unlike must mention their return to that standard if there is no evidence of certain principle before the fall boy the New Testament then we are falsely applying this principle for example polygamy is that slavery diets what was even then it has been Muslim the Bible or in spirit box this has to be some kind of indication that God wants us to go back to the original plan so far as the author creates false paradigm did before the fall there was no headship over the first thing and how by not quoting pool was clear that the first there is one weakness of hermeneutics and Daniel I did there was a sake we need to remove beyond gender this will reveal in the New Testament that the major hermeneutical problem with the document is an abuse of something that is called in narrative analysis of the text explain what does it mean the document S emphasizes what is called quote a close reading of the text the combat 's approach where great emphasis is placed on the literary devices in-flight that show hints combined with the examination of structural in this technical features of the American okay I'm losing with all those big words what this means is very simple you look at the text not so much we are what the text says is important but how the text is written how it's packaged what kind of the spectacle lyrics is and what kind of structures are are are in the text why is it used this work so I spent weeks have the meaning that we agree with them finance black if you first have to read the plain reading of the text amen we cannot replace the nuances and lifts up the pins with the major playing Scripture with Scripture reading of the text today is a plain vanilla text this compares in Scripture Scripture and then you can also use some beauties of the things that I think the support the plain meaning of the Bible and that's the problem of this article it is not it doesn't focus enough on the plain reading of the text money focused extensively on those nuances and analysis of this can be interpreted into the way he wants because they're not supported by the major body of the plain reading of the text and will see some out of view this example not just laying down just the three main hermeneutical errors and they will go to the examples that analysis such as that Robert alter and Jacob Falk of the desert Jewish authors were core I looking for the return to the Scripture conscript has those beautiful horses they argue that the meaning of the text is failed in the fashion effectively considers the couple is couple of writers that is supporting this approach and any can be yielded in a good way any can be useful this analysis I cannot now recognizes can be useful in pointing to Shannon Hinson Saddam wasn't fixed but those nuances and minor hints must corroborate with the plain obvious glitch of historical reading of inspired writings so the three problems that we saw selective reading of the Scripture reading just goes is not not not really with full six about Moses never to Nice use of the redemptive movement hermeneutics leading to false conclusions of Bible is moving us towards his fictive no headship scenario and three abuse of narrative analysis of the Bible focusing on subtleties and nuances that they can be easily misinterpreted without compared with the overall consensus of Scripture so let's go to some examples of how those hermeneutical flaws play out in the article and are called exegetical errors now displayed when you apply hermeneutics wrongly you get to with exegetical operations said the village of these three big hermeneutical flaws without protection from the New Testament revelation document as becomes extremely vulnerable to a host of the digital mistakes I will point about five of these things before the fall and maybe a few who have time off the phone a Adam and Eve 's relationship before the fall before the fall into sin the issue hatchet between Adam and Eve is not directly addressed it's not the point of the text that the major point of the thing so there there's not been hints influences the way will see there's a headship principle of the some unspoken hints clearly point to an item represented the leadership but document as tends to twist this hints and put trading either as irrelevant or inconclusive for example the name of Adam his name and just Jesse 's name in his privacy creation one of the first neglect and problems and document is the favorite of knowledge at a representative status and creation he's great at first focused so much upon the fact that human weapon does not mean management other human being which is true he loses from sight the fact the entire human race is called on to solve for example the name of Adam and Eve is the metaphysical Adam the whimsical is the genders niche Isha male-female endocrine is on so the entire race is called by the first name on the first mail the first myth obviously represents the entire race season name rent is there a race human race is in his name just than just a firsthand very clearly showing items representing the entire human race Helen what a gracious as a creation he was out of ninety was given the responsibility of being the hand the Lord the representative of the whole human family patron and profit page forty so I know what he was created he was created quote representative of the whole humans have about one o'clock in the federal design of any issue the representative told the family and he is the head of the family document S also denies the fact that Adam being treated first has any significance in the in the in the results also what if his greatest first there is no significance but this what makes it possible again this is the problem not unit you don't quote me just quote John was the inner court apostle Paul could not place importance on your grace is flat it was for first and any first Timothy two thirteen is always noted the document will avoid both argument for the rest of the paper naturally in game was made out of Adam is an interesting document S also doesn't see any chance of significance indeed being derived from Adam he actually argue that I also was derived from the earth the grout because me the proudest is that the Earth is at the head had cellulite okay Willis seems kind of like okay to look in the argument right but in reality it is a false paradigm even the Hebrew to look at the Hebrew terms they use for atom being formed from the desk and the time that he was derived is a complete of the Hebrew verse denoting different actions eating he says she without it was formed by said in Hebrew out of the ground one woman was made were constructed on the same and that the Hebrew language that support the paradigm actually if you take this to a logical conclusions you actually say come to the feminist idea that the women 's season top why because God told Adam subjugate the earth so she derived from the parents and then finish the subjugated and Eve who derived from Adam to the subject at hand to if you follow that argument obviously that's not the identify of my instead of speculating like from the little evidence we had Genesis two was his consult the rest of inspiration possible places cleanup importance upon the fact that man was not made from woman but woman was made for men Paul confirms it is coming out of Adam hints to what the function of some as important words I went through the sky there is something called ontological subordination and functional so what is the ontological engage on this essence being we do not believe that women are ontologically inferior or subordinated me their essence in there being very fear their functionality subordinates descendent is sending to a essence and being with equal but for the purposes of the harmony got has placed functional subornation crisis functionally subordinate divider inabilities ontologically equal to the father and image of God he great men woman but also the wife is functionally willingly not forcibly choosing women we yielding the hatchet to the Senate they can be dysfunctional subordination for the purpose of the harmony since it is likely for the evidence just recall he's inspired this is inspired and commentary format was not made from woman for man was not made for a woman but the woman four-man and the woman was not make the end the man was not made from woman but woman from that he's discussing in first Corinthians Chapter 11 descendent had the man is the head of the woman and that's why it says that women when they pray and prophesy they were putting the veil in the call in cooking the culture putting the mail was like okay I'm praying above is indigent but not as a elder of not being all and in his is why because the man because woman was created from then so he places significance upon the fact that the woman was great from back in his and because of that the dots why women do not take authority over their heads or their husbands in the church so he's making the reality will conclude the head of woman is man and that's the harm what harmony that that the script so I so wanted Gray is a helpful demand has been then we just mentioned that no headship of God the father now this is a very important point of this is not about whether the nation and more because in order to prove that women aren't and there's no hatchet between men and women race the distinction between Christ and God the father tonight your goal with a check then you just go a lot of the plays we received some kind of subordination and headship and you want to raise it ever since it starts always with one error and when the other passages in the Bible are pointing to their regular cup passages as well great more errors tonight the virus is spreading on on the Godhead on the Trinity that the wild virus of his bedding in this paper document as a tax the headship of God the father patiently documented attempts to prove that before the full there was no hint of tension or leadership with being the Godhead okay according to this logic the human Koppel created an image of God also should likewise exemplify no headship or leadership in either the documentation says that Christ only assume the functionally subordinate role off their time during the engines of sin in the world but this is refuted by New Testament passages which teach that Christ will forever remain functionally submit to God let's read this first Corinthians fifteen twenty seven twenty eight the Bible says for he has put everything under his feet nobody says that everything has been put under him it is clear that this does not include God himself who put everything under Christ when he has done this then the son himself will be made subject to him cope with everything under that God may be all we know the Bible clearly says that the price at the end of sin problem he will be made subject and the same award in Greek subject is use when women be subject to your husbands and the rest of needed that this particular credit it is unquestionable and the Bible Jesus is due to describe it equal to God the father ontologically by his essence that completely they had different roles John chapter one in Hebrew gentleman talk about Jesus being fully apparently we got home and at the same time the Bible clearly teaches that Christ would willingly assumes a ministry of submission and service because that is the character of God there is nothing wrong in submission service in that character got allowance to service creatures in Christ who represents them then words what a thought of God being expressed to the Angels and he assumes that a subordination position to show the Angels that God is not just I think I think I take that Postal Service subordinates that is an example of servant hood Christ chooses to delegate the leadership of God the father for the sake of the universe the human couple which is creating an image of God Holloway a was committed for the very purpose of reflecting that relationship and we are SAS interface facing eradicating the image of God by trying to follow feminist agenda which is actually as we saw in the first visitation spiritualist 's agenda spiritist the Bible clearly says first Corinthians eleven three that I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ and the head of the woman is man and the head of Christ is God obviously had clear connection the head of Christ I have practiced God so the head of woman whose name but only men could be had if the Christ in his head men of the leader needs to have Christ the Holy Spirit in Christ Lori needs to be Norman in our leaders and pastors in order because without Christ is no spirit and leadership in women about unfortunately Ellen White affirmed Christ's ontological equality with the divine father Saint Jesus is the source of power he didn't get power he is the source of power the fountain of life acts of apostles four seventy eight however she also stated that when Christ became incarnated as Jesus of Nazareth he became the son of God in a new sense that means that before he became incarnated she was only the son of God in a different sense already took the raw son and there's a father only took a subordinate position of the sun even before he came to Nazareth is affirming that is a friend of Christ was actually in evangelism page six fifteen she says that Christ was the eternal self existing son he was from eternity so existing so ontologically equal is God a journaling ego functionally son before seeing an incarnation God the father in the Godhead they have given roles to each other if I'd assume the function of the leader and initiative initiator he said the son and in it and when white a review and Herald July ninth eighteen ninety five she says the eternal father and I look at those words get there no father the unchangeable one cave he's only begotten son so are from his bosom him was made in the express image of his person send him down to her to you know how readily see the love mankind God the father is the one who sends reporters who initiates and they will see later when Adam comes in and he says the man showed been so clean the click of his mother father he will cleans up easily he initiates always present visit this initiating leadership had to parole is given even to them and will come for just a little later sinus perfectly equal and has all the right and power to be the leader but Jesus Christ shows the true character of God by voluntarily submitting the leadership of the father exemplifying the spirit of submission and obedience before the Angels so the Angels look at that subordination and they saw that my creator okay I will subordinate to the end that is different in that example that God gives of his creation God wanted to seeing our children as well when the children they seem other submitting and subordinating to the fathers they understand okay they learn by buyer buyer by beholden to become change and they become then obedient to their parents to the school the teachers of the society but when those roles are completely reverse the chiller rebellious and would have rebellious culture and rebellious everything we have rebellious children embellished in schools shootings have things that just coming from the head of state and a final before the full final arguing before the fall it says no man shall leave his father and mother know we're coming to this document as says the fact that the Bible calls the man and not the woman to leave his mother and father cleaving to his life further affirms the lack of male leadership within the original couple before the fall is a strange that the debtors obtain genuine tip in this you think this is the twenty four is actually using a male gender as a default gender of writing using a male gender of the default gender writing and saying this is a lack of evidence that there is a male answered is very interesting another example of the Bible by looking from the first of the last big Bible talks about real hatchet at such an important doctrine it's importantly it's incredible it criticizes something weird from the first elastic entire Bible to the Bible he has integrated the Bible all the programs and nouns the endings have you had an accident or a feminine it but full-fledged default agenda is always masculine to a present when you read the ten Commandments thou shall not kill thou shall not commit adultery thou is second person singular masculine because they had Hebrews mask and then said before that doesn't mean that women can do about three or that they can steal or cheat or or or or break the salad I think that the default genders always male gender now is got six is busy shoving it in his human thinking something like ten Commandments is not the greatest sexist and universe for say for riding in the male gender the commands for men and women know he's a shyness is a good representative gender service into the gender off the humanity and he's upholding the nail head should this is also the case with all the commandments and coming back to Genesis two twenty four the same feature occurs when Manny stalled to leave his father and his mother and cleave unto his wife and they shall be one flesh that in Genesis two twenty four by employing only the male gender indicates man's responsibility representative responsibility in the formation of the family unit it is man who is responsible information family with the Paraguay was a steep screw move ahead to the image of God image of God Adam in Genesis two twenty four recognizes his responsibility as a leader I rustle as he needs he doesn't talk the same constructor highlights man's role of being the initiator instigated man's actions in relationship with his wife I describe with active verbs leave and cleave what these acts as a passive of positive benefactor of this initiative is one more Genesis two twenty four demonstrate man's leadership we need leaders today in the formation and management of the families even before the fall now we go off the default relationship between man and woman off the default was even a priest outside of even how about that when we have evidence for that in the Bible on page thirty two document S argues that often the fault he became a priest this because she was collected in the animal schemes got been prepared for her and her husband off to the full document as I did the technical terms it's very actually elaborate the technical terms alone it came over then we called tunics of skin where only employed in the context of century cloning era and the priest so because those technical terms only use them to conquer the century that means a pregame was a priest no matter what the rest of the Bible said that there is no more priest ever ever ever she certainly printed this is called the abuse of that love both of them lenses revenues of that just focus on those you don't focus and intent without divestiture says the faulty hermeneutics the main problem with this again but even like when he takes hermeneutics and go by but the main problem with this idea is not that accurate the same words and or combination of the sports court not the last field it is a Hebrew Hebrew terms may appear in the text this cotton tunic off the daughter will ship reason and in the closing of the show Mike the wife of Solomon Bush agrees Tom initial might when the priest is why they were high members of the royal family may be needed the Texas Rangers are just something else here that I'm saying the proper lesson from this one study is that the combination of the white tunic and closed can portray the distal office special on thereupon some goddess covering displacing a special honor upon the specific ones using those conducts not necessarily neutral priestly function the usage of terms tunics and cloning demonstrates a high honor bestowed upon identity even though they seem God Congress and with that to Nicholas Kane in this game is not just any scheme God still said gave him authority to be rulers of the Eric even if but if they remain calmer by Jesus sacrificed symbolized by discounts just like ensure my theory see the gardens of the Queen of the goddess queen therefore the same time God excluding the special tunics of a part of anything you have lost the leadership desert but on the Jesus on the discussions you are redeemed and you get the special redemptive tunics upon the back so that the text actually says something beautiful that the men and women can get back there came going to be kings and priests of their get-go the same sending beautiful that we can all have a relationship with Jesus to those skins and God is putting back the role of Kings of the art lot only if you accept Jesus 's death for us those kids the World Bank says nowhere is safe and even now the priest on top of that autumn so when you read something the skins have nothing to do with gambling boat being priests for the August to those those clinics could be also used not just quick reprise later let's compare Scripture with Scripture lenses not draw conclusions from one piece of verse we see later that all e-mail patriots performed sacrifices Cain and Abel before the flood Noah right after the flood if you have I second Jacob during the period of the patriarchs Joe knows sacrifices are recorded as having offered by as the wife of Noah Sarah Rebecca Rachel Leonid you see there was a wonderful nature acts taking the role of leaders of the commonplace sacrifices wind outside the beauty was supposed to be a priest author was pictured something bad I like this one says Jesus at the beginning the father was closeted priest and monk magistrates who was increased no season at the beginning the father was constituted treason magistrate of his own family and came the pitcher article rule which was like that of the family but extended over a greater number citizen before paychecks is about Cain and Abel that in the beginning the father was a priest and magistrate 's August the spirit of prophecy 's inspiration kind of the begin the father was a priest not eaten in education two hundred fifteen it says it was God 's plan for the members of the site it is possible for us to live the life of even this is a beautiful passage is it is possible for us to live the life of even a man ha ha how can you live the life even and it was God 's plan for the members of the family to be associated in the work and study in Washington recreation the father was priest of his household and both father and mother as features and companions of their children you want to go back to even visit with Doctor Dennis God 's plan for father to be a priest and father and mother us teachers and companions of the children who are go back to reason this is were going to end this is probably most and this is the strongest case that in the Bible God appointed men to be representatives this is when God comes after the same and he says Adam where art thou seek him in his attempt in he can get that to deny male headship document S completely omits discussion about the men woman's eyes being opened off the out of a different eat a different nothing happened I is the fruit they put the same this obviously shows who is there that the responsible interrelationship that peculiar document that we're discussing here the covered almost all basis very close vigorously than me doesn't even mention this passage is a message that even mentions every single letter and then jumps about that one it is significant to see that nothing happened when Eve ate the fruit in the evening it is not possible repetitively mentions atom I'm the one who introduces the world 's natural course in first Budweiser sponsors at introducing in the world is not a happy releasing had it was understood that the representative the Koppelman he said I will go down it's a clear image in such clear evidence that happened that Adam was created representative the second important indicator of atoms representative role is the fact that opt out of any sane consensual Deloitte 's uncle had any below is a kind of where art thou second person singular masculine where are you them he he causing out of the bushes Al Qaeda and other needed items Jesus called out abuses were arguing when he starts talking with you who came first this damage it was one added with a representative the human race and the first look to be called to assume the responsibility for missing argument you want to be a leader assumed responsibility this is what needs to be deleted not just all these great beings believe we discover birds and actually in footnote one and you can check it for yourself the document actually admits our case he just can't the document can not anymore go against the text into obscure footnote not in the text in a foot the one at night document and should admit that God called Ad-Aware are you because I exist size with document extends representative headship hop however the document is displayed to qualify this all this is anon humor article type of cancer it is offensive it is represented but it is a servant leadership courses certainly there's no denying that the document as best actually concede the point is that the point and admits that Adam exercised a functional representative hatchet or leadership within the first couple even before the fall secondly we can stop the symposium right here because debt on the opposite side actually yes there was Henson before the fall there was a representative headship before the fall then I was saying made a main body but they were honest enough to bring the footnotes I found it since with the one on you can see so we agree with the same page Army called prion is not us versus them again and he shall rule over the document S admits talking these words pronounced by God in Genesis this is definitely involved the subjection submission of the wife to the husband okay with this he continues its inimitable the force of the last line is unavoidable see you husband shall rule over you page sixteen document S also admits that the exercise properly this divine pronouncement concerning man's head should can be a blessing for the human family and their authors something we agree on praise God however he then proceeds do I get man's headship is only temporary and through the actions of divine grace designed to have recommended the old redemptive function got from his blessing should be reverted to an elite that reverted to what you just prove that it was repetitive headship before seizing all however we should be reverting to await it's a representation that we have had before so we can you can have your cake and eat it too we had ten more minutes but there is no indication of redemptive changes or anything of reversal of Genesis three sixteen had with my Bible says he shall rule over the now it's a very harsh Wharton rule over the NLE dynasty wise it's just wrong but that was apparently used for kinks white talk to you that sometimes except the Bible is not clear if I was to clear that is the problem the problem of the Bible you that most argument that coming at intimidation said while Bible is too harsh not the Bible is unclear but the Bible is kind of Sukkoth not a unclear but it's too clear it's just wrong they can be stronger about the problem and that's exactly the point 's mayors Johnson can see it and what it says here after same ad and became a leader in a different sense before soon there was no disharmony but now there's going to be difficulty Genesis one to describe the time when submission to God ordained authority within the nation note discussed this but also the fault woman become conscious of the law and now is necessary and new application to her in the sinful condition and what rights in selected messages book one page two the law of God existed before the creation of man or else Adam could not have seen lots of the transgression of Adam the principles of the law were not changed but what arranged and expressed to meet the man is fallen condition before the fall out in the name didn't even know there was a law because they were in perfect harmony with the law their perfect harmony which atoms are present in hatchet they never disagree that even if it would disagree with acknowledgment bunch of this agreement is a sin and pride I have my way and got his things be tough so there's couple of courses there scores that man was he declares is that man will not work with the sweat on his face Brown will give thorns but the woman will have pain pregnancy and that the ground will produce fruit with dollars was sent that and open the woman will have to submit those are those of the curses now I will question good man what have to work before the full but now what this lady more difficult than women give birth could they give birth before the fall be fruitful and multiply got said but now scream of difficult was Eric yielding fruits and produce before the fall yet now dollars and this is in the final phase was there any hatchet before the fall we saw it was even the crockpot the author of the article says Elizabeth it had to but now expanding more difficult because of sin and pride that's what God has put that this would be more difficult so this is another proof there was a headship is wonderful now we're going to the paychecks and this is the that I believe respectfully the weakest point in that point of the only other of the Thomas of the document the state is in the nature page Ricky are replete with contradictions in one sentence it claims that mail headship in the time of the patriarchs was only quote temporary measure temporary roommate of remedial measure exist picture anarchy was not evil in itself but it was not ultimate ideal of the real numbers words based are driven up and says the picture of his temporary is not evil in itself but is not the ideal okay and what this clearly that the departure of age that was once got a firm will skip the dollars and what about saying so was being jerky better good in the same breath all proceeds to argue later that the pain charity actually not exist but it was only consistent over the children what happened is that the evil or is it good over the children again you cannot have your cake and so forth it says that the pitcher to the document says impatiently but that the bishop is temporary so I had to control your children it's a temporary it is it is not evil in itself but is not ultimate ideal so either is bad or is good if it's good but it's only over the children or it's been an issue it's not old tomatoes you can't have both and and then there is another argument document and stocks about Sarah and Abraham I just would've mentioned this before because the document continues disagreeing with himself to the article first he said that picture it was a true reality temporary measure necessary evil then he said that the page regularly applied to children identify the children is not necessary evil good and finally he actually says that the picture of the patriarchal and all actually but it was beautiful in the unique and only Cantonese and according what you wait he was the featured gate was the only of the children was in Italy Tennessee that make up your mind is that what you want isn't finally to prove that then he says bunch of feminist authors cool quoting work were mentioning the relationship between a independent staff according to choose questions quoting a feminist scholar Janice Cox affirming that Sarah quote she appears to say what she wants when she wants and Abraham at times responded almost meek will be the this according to document S Abraham must beg Sarah to say she was his sister Sarah quote commands Abraham was Sarah and I independently working with me this is that this is a relationship between Serenade according to the fixed of this office of the document according a careful reading of the chapter describe the lives of Sarah and Abraham in fact a very different picture it is true that the Bible portrays it as a husband who respected and loved his wife amen he was very carefully considering her needs and desires throughout his journeys in Canaan Abraham did not for Sarah into saying she was his sister when entreating with his wife he was a human what now which means police could you say that your sister all throughout Sarah 's long years of bitterness Abraham did not pursue otherwise wonderful PR to listen to her counsel and when Sarah died he wept for her all this is true and need not be refuted biblical complementarity that is not characterized the subjection lack of individuality or suppression of women's rights and needs although Sarah was fought far from perfect she's consistently described in the book of Genesis a great nature a loving spouse and a wise mother all notwithstanding the biblical text clearly testifies that Abraham not Sarah was a priest and the real head of the household Abraham is the one who leaves his family from your cat out from Babylon only to Canaan and I was the one who reached the altar to the Lord and Lady family what should Genesis twelve eight thirty four when a family dispute occurs between lots household and Abraham house what is it and lots the two male leaders who sell the dispute that women are not mentioned in the process when the Lord visits Abraham promising son under the tree soon I still need independent listening to the conversation from within the painted door which was behind it I have noticed my foot is not to say that women need to begin the kitchen or intent in fact the Lord Jesus actually asked him what his wife Sarah as if you were a disaster he wanted to be patient but the description of Sarah Liston from within the tenth hardly fits the picture off-center commanding Abraham and telling you what to do and I have certainly free that denies Sarah Spitz but you later this is when what happened to Sarah Abraham Sarah actually asked Abraham to listen and commit sin and sleep with Hager and in the process off of doing soon Abraham grants his wife request and ended the day that the author of the document says the fact that it will have granted Sarah 's request me that half their attention just because God answers and grant our request when we asked the new wind top of him or that we have representative hatchet or Jesus but I don't think so on when natural gas is something we grant the request is whether the Abraham is certainly free to deny Sarah 's been but under the pressure of age society and willingness to please each other 's wife he succumbs in committing polygamists in which Sarah like like Adam and Eve he falls because he was entreated there's nothing call you spiritually this episode this is as good as him and since we cannot use up his estate this is the paradigm of men women relationship and optionally does not serve as an example of redemptive movement husband-wife relationship quest to follow and to have just a minute to conclude on okay and unfortunately Peter with his let's see what about the business and operations between Abraham and Sarah 's in first Peter he says in this way in former times the holy women who hold to adorn themselves in God being submissive to build confidence just as Sarah obeyed Abraham calling him and you have become hard children if you do what is right this is the New Testament is a great dispensation so she can read Scripture with Scripture to see what the Scriptures describing the relationship between Abraham and Sarah who was the head in that feature of relationship to conclude that have scroll couple of pages document S paper offers I would say anyone's defense of Italy ten positions even though I could trade many mistakes I believe those are mistakes actually there is a lot of conditioning this is probably the last frontier of protonation scholarship however as we have seen it cannot help but having multiple weaknesses and some amazing reinterpretations of the Bible the greatest weaknesses abuse of the redemption movement trajectory meets usability analysis and a lack of consideration of the New Testament inspired writers Genesis one and two offers plenty of evidence for the harmonious and beautiful relationship between Adam and Eve this harmonious relationship is characterized by items Lafferty and his emaciated and building a new family unit he was at his equal created from his rape not to dominate Adam but not to be dominated by him either he was fought with extreme beauty high intelligence bearing the image of God within this equality got appointed add-in to the servant leader and the principal representative the couple items leadership exemplified the Mono the first amount equal every Christian household should represent a small garden of the and remember there's a quarter like to go back to even she said was her father as a priest and a cushion consulship in the smoldering is filled with love a miniature heaven and earth Adam leadership is needed today is image of God this type of leadership is required of modern leaders and Christian households those leaders need to have Christ first in their heads are to be the heads it was a friend in Genesis is affirmed my point Peter chose servant leaders are needed in our homes today May the Lord help us in his last days not to forget the ideal of leadership for homes and churches which is the image of divine heads and let us resist with God the result of cultural pressures of available this media was brought in by audio players a website dedicated to spreading God 's word through three seven audio and much more he would like to know more about our universe is like the more certain it is www. audio tours .org


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