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Town Hall Meeting

Don Mackintosh
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Don Mackintosh

Chaplain/Pastor - Weimar Institute

Director - Newstart Global/the HEALTH Program (Health, Evangelism, & Leadership Training


  • October 4, 2014
    7:30 PM
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anything unwelcome to the town hall discussion on the women's ordination issue were glad to be here at secrets unsealed were glad to have a few folks with us in the studio this evening and were glad to have you join us wherever you are or whenever you're watching this and this has been a rather vigorously discussed issue of women's ordination in many denominations and also in the Seventh-day Adventist denomination especially movement the past number of years a number of the panelists have been presenting on secrets unsealed women's ordination symposium and you might ask why are we having this discussion will the reason for having this discussion is because we've been encouraged to have the discussion number one and because there's been there's been a lot of study that's been done and we want to bring out some of the things that have been discovered in the over the last two years as the global church came together to study the issue of women's ordination representatives from literally many parts of the country I mean there were more from the sexes are more polarized over it but they had what was called the theology of ordination study committee just last week on the Adventist news network owner Wilson the General conference presidents of the evidence in this essay I would encourage each church member and certainly each representative at the annual counsel that such counsel they have every year annually about people from around the world and those who will be delegates to the General conference session to prayerfully review the presentations that were made at Tosca and then ask the Holy Spirit to help them know God 's will and also recommending that every member do the same thing so that's one of the reasons we've had a simple then why would have understand town hall discussion of all the presentations have now been made for I think there's only one person or two people are missing from our panel maybe three or missing for actually four people tonight so but this is fairly reflective notice that faster board is not here but you can look at his presentation of all the others that might be missing this as they counsel also that our Wilson gave look to see how the papers and presentations were based on an understanding of the clear reading of Scripture consultant things and that you need to read the Scriptures to see what he's talking about or what has been studied and secondly to see what the thoughts were and see if they make sense that also he says that's the spirit of prophecy tells us that we are to take the Bible just as it reads that a quotation in that interview from Hawaii the language of the Bible should be explained according to its obvious meaning unless assemble or figure is important so I think this is very wise counsel from the with general conference now one other thing the North American division which is where we all reside better here in this particular discussion had this to say Tom in their North American division theology of ordination report and I quote we believe that an individual as a Seventh-day Adventist and thorough commitment to a full authority Scripture may build a defensible case in favor of or in opposition to the ordination of women in the gospel ministry although each of us views one position or the other is stronger and more compelling I may use that as a question at committee tonight on the throw that out to you but I disagree as we introduce things to say that what underway I read that statement is the North American division is wanting to affirm you and whatever position you take Saul you should not feel awkward in answering or fully studying at this time in the process of looking at women's ordination that makes us to my panelists as well now I would say that the symposium that started on Wednesday night this is now Saturday night for those of you watching later so we had a keynote on Wednesday night and Thursday and Friday and then the Sabbath we had several presentations so far has received over three hundred thousand hits on Facebook and various websites one Facebook site alone had ninety six thousand hits by the time you're watching this at home or wherever you are could be into the millions I look at some of the feedback that came from the websites and associated with various speakers and there were both there were things that was a great difference in the responses to various presentations but I'll just share one positive one they were mostly positive I might say but because this issue is so charged there there were another mother few Atascadero hot and cold treatments amen so you want to have him do you want to keep yourself healthy so I try and get a look at the positive and the negative what a blessing these have been wrote someone I believe with all my heart that these messages are a testimony against those members would seek to destroy God 's church valued and so are they coming from what a blessing to hear the word of God expounded since seven other person in such powerful ways thank you thank you thank you and then there were some less positive statements which you can draw you find yourself on the Internet if you like the look of about one thing I wanted to bring up before we get started again because we do have a two hour Townhall media I'm looking forward and argue that you might want to give and get something to eat or drink that's thereby you not want to get out of your chair one thing I wanted to bring up as we start as well is that in all there were three position papers that came out of the theology of ordination study and this committee I think it's fair to say is more links to one of those statements than the other there's three of them and I would say that this panel discussion that their people that believe in I have supported either on the committee or from afar position statement number one and age that you go to the website they'll put it up on the screen for you theology of ordination study Camille give you the link to go to the website right now you know it's an honest archive .org and you can find all the various reports but I wanted to read one of the position statement number one because we spent so many hours on that statement and we want you to read it we want you to put a link on your Facebook page or your MySpace are your ends the grandma whatever you link with send it out near why so that people can read this and the reason I want to read it now is because it actually answers many of the classes that I thought coming in okay would you like to hear that statement right it's called the way forward position position number one work I'm pleased that they bonuses number one when I make it to my Telenet released in the top three in Ware position number one at this point him away for statement this is to remain faithful to Scripture to reaffirm and further promote women in ministry and to preserve Bible -based unity in the church we recommend the following for consideration by the General conference and old bastard I like it so far we like it so far number one reaffirm and encourage with public recognition and licensure women whom God has called the gospel work I like enemy like that and number two provide enhanced access to educational opportunities for women and gospel work and ensure fair and just treatment upon their placement in ministry a man okay I'm was expecting a few more payments from those who worked on the statement but that's okay number three promotes the greater development of various lines of ministry for women according to their spiritual gifts including but not limited to personal and public evangelism teaching preaching ministry to families counseling medical missionary work departmental leadership etc. I forget what you think that's not an exhaustive list because it says etc. there could be many more things while increasing opportunities for women administrate we also recommend that number four you retain the church retained the scriptural practice of ordaining commissioning only qualified man to the office of pastor minister throughout the world church in harmony with the consistent example of Christ the apostles and the Adventist pioneers and number five returns the biblical practice of electing in ordaining only meant the office of local elder throughout the world church while providing for women to serve as an ordained church leaders under certain circumstances and by the way as we discussed in a metastatic area that's already what's done in places where they actually believe that a man should be ordained elder and pastor like in the Philippines so they have and also you why that is as the statement goes on what you think so far that's actually answered about to the questions attainment here is a way here the second part of that way for restatement ankles and visit alliances support and other considerations God calls women is to both full and part-time ministry and a bunch of quotations you can look up the lines of service in which women may work our broad and far reaching all bloods if you want to look those up from the Bible also the spear proxy for its mission the church must make full use of the indispensable role of women in the ministry of the church women can do when families a work that men cannot do a work that reaches the inner life they can come close to the hearts of those whom men cannot reach their work is needed Christian service page twenty seven the church should issue an appropriate license with little compensation the qualified women quote although the hands of ordination have not been laid upon them in a number of quotations you can read although both men and women are called the various lines administrate the Bible consistently assigns the office of local elder and or pastor minister to faithful men who satisfy the Scripture requirements see the examples of Jesus and the early church as well as Paul's instructional once a text for you look up assignment rather than being based on culture is grounded by Paul in the mail spiritual leadership role established at creation and reaffirmed after the fall of a textile company while spiritual gifts include pastoral care this is not equivalent to the biblical office of elder that is today often referred to as quote pastor unquote coordination involves a call from God and recognition by the church regionally in harmony with the church globally ordination to the office of pastor minister grants full ecclesiastical authority to establish new churches ordain local elders baptize converts and lead out in the ordinances of the church in cooperation with the local conference in certain circumstances a woman may serve as a local church leader church manual seventy five and seventy six without being ordained as an elder allowing recently established beliefs or qualifications for ordination fraction of the church create confusion and disunity and set a dangerous precedent it would remove an important protection from nonbiblical cultural influences and move the church toward becoming an association of national churches and set of the United world church global unity global church unity can be preserved only by yielding to the play and obvious meaning of Scripture rejecting higher criticism or other methods of Bible study that gives the reader authority over the divinely inspired text Jesus is our example of servant leadership his life expresses the loving authority and submission that exist in God family in heaven and on earth that's the way forward statement that was presented so that should answer a bunch of questions right there but maybe I read it too quickly for those of you here or those that are watching so I would encourage you to go to the archives I will put that up on the screen hopefully eventually when this is edited and you can go there you can click on it you can download that yourself and look up all of those quotations that his icon and station of hours of untold hours I happen to be on that writing committee and some of the people here that are smiling warily at me were there as well and good it was untold revisions of hours and I'm one of the reasons unrelated to his I hope that someone reads to each other I guess they really noted that that was worth doing this tonight okay so now some ground rules for my for my panels here we have a number of questions forty years old and we have no limits and amounts on what I want from you was you to convince your wisdom into her soundbites alack why do I say that because if you talk too long I won't be able to remember what you were saying that's one reason and and secondly we do have a lot of questions to go through other doesn't we will want to hear from you but we want to hear also from all of you so perhaps I should knowledge you before you begin speaking that way I can make sure I would like to hear from each one of them so we want to hear from all of you and and I might even have a few things to say to you never know let's pray together before look at questions father in heaven were thankful tonight that we can common and discusses this important topic we are glad that you love that you came in changes plan grew up lived died resurrected ministering in the heavenly sanctuary on our behalf ever living to make intercession and you long force to respond to you you died for us while we were yet enemies and certainly even as we study this issue we want to have a spirit of grace and one of the spirit of forthrightness but a spirit that telegraphs that we love one another and that we won't allow any issue to come between us if we can help so through this town hall meeting we ask that perhaps there could be some clarity that comes that even helps us to that end we thank you we come in Christ name on it all right and I try to organize these questions and their impacts of events only started coming in on this illegal rapidfire to the questions I have one to start with some simple once first and as someone wrote in a number of people actually and they asked us a similar set of questions and here it is and I know that you can go on and on about this but this is a simple question what are the biblical scriptural qualifications for ordination voice and will write that input they hardly could listen to our whole symposium but this simply put it in and perhaps just point to a text to us who wants to handle that what are the biblical qualifications for board nation all right do I appoint someone first Timothy two and three states and accurately and concisely sodas Titus chapter one okay I would the questionnaire to read those passages all right that was good of move forward second question enlisting into the talk about first Timothy I have a question wasn't this just a local problem in Ephesus wasn't it dealing with something that was just specific there how can we broaden this to everyone everywhere you go you should papers shot at that question Doctor sort to open a way that let you introduce yourselves so introduce yourself before you answer the questions go ahead Eagles soar key from my team Texas win when Paul writes letters they naturally have to be specific letters she's not sitting in a university office writing a lexicon article he's writing to a person but we do have pointers in the text for example first Corinthians fourteen verse thirty three where he uses the word church as his counsel to that searches for pillow church as we have the example in Revelation chapter two and three where a specific letter to a specific church then is expanded by the Holy Spirit to a plurality of churches we have Paul telling us in first Corinthians ten that these past examples from the Exodus are specifically for us in the end times was very dangerous to do to limit biblical counsel to just a specific situation the other problem is that this Ephesian theory you look to the commentaries scholars do not agree what that situation is filled with artificially construct a specific situation with Timothy at Ephesus and Paul which scholar do we follow and that fortunately we don't have to fall into guesswork Paul tells us in first Timothy chapter two that his reasoning goes back to creation and Adam number one and then to the curse so a lot of the big questions we have what is the situation the content is answered within the text itself okay can I follow-up on that because it was another question that came in one of the people that presented at the General conference Toscanini is a little full paper on this and in this person reference that paper this question so you thought a lot about that paper because this was your counterpart that was presenting on the center of the concern in this passage is not about women serving in ministry or as local church elders much less about ordination since these were not issues in the congregation in Ephesus so how can you then apply it to ordination today since that's not what they were dealing with an emphasis web when we use that phrase the plain reading of Scripture it is not an ignorant reading is not an isolated meeting of people at the context of first Timothy the entire letter and directly addresses the elders and acts fourteen twenty three Titus chapter one verse five does address elders as being ordained so I would counter that the text itself talks about the role of men the role of women and specifically that oath of the office of elders to understandably there were some teachers that had gone astray over very high up there and they needed to be straight okay thank you let's go on on to another question here what about the statements allowing directed this well whoever wants to take a shot at it I think part Doctor O and you can introduce yourself you start out is because you made a presentation on what about the statement about light when she says it is the accompaniment of the Holy Spirit of God prepares workers both men and women to become pastors of the flock of God testimonies for the church volume five seven twenty three that seems like Ellen White essay is a gift of the Spirit and ladies can be pastors we affirm that it is absolutely right could you introduce yourself over your earnings on Doctor Isaac Overton G from Hustler Alabama on absolutely right now on the spirit Ross also talked about the qualifications of an elder in connection with first Timothy chapter three and where she uses the term me and he is in heat and at the time she was riding that there were no women elders in the Adventist church at the time she was not referring to the women and men but men exclusively of that office of an elder passage it is of the spirit to give a person can do pastoral labor visiting the flock am praying with people ministering to the needs of the congregation without necessarily having the title of a bishop or elder for the spirit to give standpoint now all elders in business the pastoral labor but not all but the pastoral labor were bishops or elders algae why talk about the all about the membership doing pastoral labor in connection with the ministry okay thank you thank you this can try not be emphasized to too much you do not have to be ordained to being H in ministry enemy him and that pastoral labor is broader than just being a bishop over Churchill chaplaincy you have Bible work the MDG Deaconess work which is a representation work which is pastoral in nature so just wanted to be a pastor within that context that thank you solid shots has requested that the Adventist pioneers early on Evan 's history were very pro- women in ministry and would have or could have or would have ordained them that the time had been right is that true or is that falsely wants to take that someone that has not yet spoken and please introduce yourself my name is Billy change in Edina the chime from Angers University are any errors I have been actually very much in favor of women in ministry now in the government ministry we talk about that work off Spain the gospel is different different ways women worked in our early church in ministry like a visitation ministry was something theory very important and much more visiting today we complain how pacifism visit the members while before it didn't have to be it's a much members as she did but because a lot of food eight people were in the Ministry of visitation is special education initiatives call on him there is a one article in signs of the times in eighteen seventy eight that editorial board off this the article which means this is pretty much the position of the entire magazine which was James Wyatt J Waggoner Urias Smith they actually agreed saying that first imitate and first Corinthians talk about some kind of teaching and speaking that is prohibited to them and if so what in the rest of the Bible we met teaching and speaking rain in processing check first Corinthians eleven so while I do prohibited from speaking and teaching here and it's in the context of teaching these authority over men it's always good judging the profits in first Corinthians fourteen which is only for the elders of the church and in first Timothy to its authority exercising with argument and then describing the Queen the teacher the patient so it's in the context always that easy women can teach fifth person that Titus Chuck took it to a diversified winning impeachment is in the context of teaching in a authority of existing authority over the man and this is the picture cathartic and this is prohibited to limit and that's what Paul is saying that in this context that kind of teaching is prohibited and that's it in this article are pioneers affirmed that and then later it is another article eight ninety five is a friend that one more time to find his work in favor of women in ministry but there is Minister for men and his ministry when please introduce yourself before you found out Reynolds retired seminary professor still working on all the times have nothing to do with because no matter what the times are it doesn't change first Timothy three and Titus one okay go ahead it is true that we had many women of this world on stage during Springs Michigan is true that we had women that were very active in our church and all of us ought to be very active in our church it's a miracle thing when people are very active in the church one of my favorite characters is now Mrs. SMI Henry who was actually a convert who was one of the evangelist WCT U years who Helen White holds had trust the crowd whenever she could patient a wonderful relationship with Mrs. Whiteley never met that they wrote back and forth their correspondence off to be published because it's so classic and so beautiful Mrs. SMI Henry was a very strong worker she worked and preached that camp meetings and discussing counseled with the women she had a column every week in the review what women's work and but it's not like what we would think would be women's work today it was all how can I reach my neighbors at twelve o'clock let's have a prayer prayer time together every day we're all going to unitedly pray and how can I reach the essence and white why do about it you don't just beautiful beautiful writings on how to deal with different people so that's Mrs. FMI Henry who was very powerful and by the way not for women's ordination because we know that that from her daughter 's book on which she was talking to Francis Weller who was the number one person at the WCTU and Mrs. Willard Miss Willard Frances Willard said to her how I suppose you are thinking about coming a doubt go to the seminaries and challenge the young men they are something I'm paraphrasing here but she said I shrank from the idea because like my mother real feel comfortable with that and so we know people like Mrs. FMI simulate was were very very powerful and very instrumental for the Lord other people like I had a Haskell who was on the front line of evangelism giving Bible studies teaching people how to learn and in work in the home how do cooking classes working very closely with her husband having a whole group of people living in her home while she's teaching all of this on doing evangelistic meetings on very very hard-working wonderful strong night person working right alongside with her husband and one of the people that Mrs. White talked about who ought to be getting salary so we have these models of women who were very very powerful and who did a wonderful work with the Lord and so but none of these were ordained they all were really really strong workers but didn't need the ordination and see okay all right allows you make another of another observation was that an extension another question that was referencing yet another whole paper that was presented at toss that gives down a different idea concerning what you just said and so they sent the Senate may ask this question in the interpretation of LOI 's testimonies and rice cannot be static because we must understand the times and circumstances that letter to say what she did and learn from them principles guide our thinking and actions today a statement written many years ago may not necessarily have the same force or even relevance as it did then attempting to explain how to use her writing she stated in nineteen eleven that the context of her thoughts is very important and then comes the statement regarding the testimonies nothing is ignored nothing is cast aside put time and place must be considered and then the question is that in a different time isn't it a different place and shouldn't we consider that I'm not exactly opposite of what Doctor holds is that what Doctor Mills is raising his hand and seeking applicants application was the interviews who you are first of all yes I'm a physician dermatologist in North Georgia but it's true time and place must be taken into consideration not our time and place but her time and place what you said who she said it to him what the circumstances were and that's true Scripture all we want to understand as much as possible the time and the place so that we can understand what we should be doing at this time and in our place okay if you have something else to say about that or did you okay please introduce yourself and until what you presented here on our symposium and then address the question right my name is Alan Davison from Auburn California and I gave a talk on the comparison they looking at theology and culture and how it relates to this debate regarding ordination one of the things I want to look at really quickly here in terms of this issue is I think Ecclesiastes one nine Kos sums it up there is no new thing under the sun in Malachi three six is the Lord I am the Lord I change not and there is this move afoot that I've seen in my conversations with some of the world leaders my dissertation research is that because the context of the Scripture was a different time and a different place we can draw out the principles but they can no longer be used for prescription will let me think about this year from if I offend my brother or my sister or here she made doesn't Matthew eighteen fifteen apply for is the principle the only thing that matters so I think that the Scripture is indeed prescriptive and we have to look at it within this general context and we take a look at are the principles relevant yesterday now and then how do I apply them in my context and at the end of the day I have to look at my submitted to the entire word of scrip you're only that which I find relevant in this postmodern era okay I is is a very important line of discussing and let me just say to our panelists here when you're answering the questions and when were talking I want you to be thinking about the kind of arguments people are going to be encountering in their local churches because a number of folks that road and they said well logs bring a question of right now to help focus is a little more and see if I can find it others tell you what it is no one asking later of their question was I believe what the Bible teaches about coordination of women and that they should not be ordained to the office of elder or pastor but my pastor does not agree and takes every opportunity to point out that what I'm saying is wrong and gives all kinds of examples what do I do in that kind of situation you hold firm to the word and you hold firm to the word if it was on a Baptist but the Sabbath and I believe the seventies of settlement has to is doing the same thing you talk about just mentioned but on Macintosh have to stand on what okay could you like me to give it some examples of what the president said yesterday is what the pastor saying from many Scriptures we use a hermeneutic oral way of understanding them that interprets the text in a way that may not be the playing or literal reading so the pastor then said and John we have not heard from you so you're the answering this the pastor said in March sixteen eighteen it describes handling sex and drinking poison should we do that today applying a literal reading of the text should we be safe handling like people do and some religious groups in Matthew eight twenty you said that Arthur buried and that sounds and we not have funerals taking that literally Jesus in first Peter three nineteen is said to be preaching to the spirits in prison we take that literally or what was really happening there and so he howled that he brought out in the prayer meeting what eagerness say what you do please introduce yourself and give us an answer John peters pastor in Pennsylvania and as we've already alluded to there are there are principles and runs throughout Scripture that that we we base our our interpretations upon and so if there are applications of those principles we we look at those as well but sometimes the applications vary depending upon the times it were in that we would discuss that before another example is a you are given are simply that there are no general principles there that well in the case of snakes and serpents and so on a drinking poison the principle might be yes God will protect you if you are doing his work in certain cases but that doesn't mean that we presume upon God it is better protected us so that that was one of the that the temptations that came to Christ by the way the temptation of presuming upon God that he would protect him when he jumped off the he would jump off the temple tower so we don't we don't presume upon God there are some principles that we follow one of them is not to presume upon God so going back to the general issue of hermeneutics on or how to study the Bible or how to study the Bible you know we weave all of these the basic given to us the principles and been given to us in the writings of Ellen White we find them in the introduction to the great controversy for example we can find them in the real documents are in nineteen eighty six real document the methods of Bible study interpretation and those those can be summarized Epson just to general ideas and one of them is to take the plane clear meaning of the Scripture that you're the text is clear and you see a principal associated with that extra runs throughout Scripture like ketchup and you see it in Genesis you see it throughout the own testament you save in the New Testament although in the revelation you you follow that principle and youth you interpret Scripture in this case mail headship based on that principle visible because it runs throughout Scripture and Paul gives a ossification of Adam was formed first for example and the second effect set okay through but there are other methods of interpreting Scripture for example the principle -based method that that the NAD espoused the night openly confessed that they they adopted for certain troublesome text a new method of interpretation because they could not accept the plain reading of the text so to understand the text they wanted to the way they wanted to understand it in this case the reader would have authority over the text rather than the text having authority over the reader they adopted a new hermeneutic are a new method of interpretation which they identified as a principle -based cultural historical linguistic a reading strategy and so they would use this for all these texts that dealt with women in ministry are specifically women in positions of office of elder and so so this is basically a higher critical technique of interpreting the Bible some of them in this church has consistently rejected that method of interpretation okay quick quick quick fell on this issue and remember this is a sister who wrote the question and was trying to be faithful to the plain reading of Scripture in this issue as he is getting upset and public as he actually put in her note to me should I leave that church I love all the people there I've been there for years this pastor is calm and entities being backed up by other people even in the administration and I feel like I'm being persecuted what do they do it here whatever you're going to say make sure you're addressing the pastoral concern here right specifically in the case of my handling poisonous snakes drinking poison the pastor is quoted Scripture it does not say it is a command Matthew twenty eight seventeen the decide some of the disciples are still doubting after the resurrection Jesus specifically tells the disciples when this and this happens you can have faith but do not go out to a dual Rattlesnake Roundup in Texas and handled the snakes without some skill pastoral level that means it's time to pray and ask God is this a church where the Bible is being taught by my actions must be in love and carefully considered over time not just a rash action Doctor Holt in all these kind of comments on questions really absolutely astound me because I came out of the evangelical vote background of as a Lutheran when I went to the seminaries to train and met with seminary faculty on Wednesday evenings for many many weeks these are questions I asked concerning the Sabbath no and no neuron isn't the Sabbath the seventh day Sabbath a part of the culture of the Jews and they showed me from Scripture work on sanctifying the seventh day and he never change that while are we supposed to reverse our arguments now when it comes to this issue that makes me wonder nor was I being deceived back there in the early nineteen seventies or am I being deceived now by these kind of arguments will say what would you say to their sister keep asking and keep pressing all right Doctor Estates areas you know that he's he sounds like somebody that doesn't quantity in the open market his mind is made up but this is what so what happens you got to understand that all enough in the bowels this acid out of fool cords was falling this felt to be like him but then he said answer was far less to be wise in his own conceit on the spirit of prophecy in the Bible gives the answers to those things in the visa will raise that the game 's music go right there in the states would say what he means but what happens is I would tell her to does go to the lovely Jesus he would tell exactly what the director is what's recently was okay and others there are two panelists who have avoided the spokesman for the cause so far so I'm going to put it before then telling up and that would be Kevin Paulson who is one of our presenters and then we also have the doctor also I knew you guys have avoided so far and so this question is specifically for one of you if you can take a didn't we used to do things the right way concerning this issue why did we ever changed someone wrote in Kevin Paulson Varian Springs Michigan I am not entirely sure what the questioners talking about what did we always do and we always ordain women to the gospel ministry obviously that is not happened though requested is didn't we used to do things the way the Bible said we should other words the questioners say we never have ordained people told out why is it that we are changing the well I would I would agree with that the fact is that there is certainly no evidence that denying ordination to women has retarded the progress of the work those regions of the world church where the ordination of women is not being agitated are the regions that are growing the fastest those where the issue of women's ordination is being agitated the most are those where the church 's growth is the most sluggish also it's difficult to understand why their individuals who think that if we could only have complete gender equality in ministry we would somehow unleash the Holy Spirit and and and and bring on the latter rain because certainly in those parts of the world where women are not where the agitation is the least and where it is nonexistent in many cases are also those where the work is growing and where both men and women are working together effectively further of the properties you think that's a sufficient answer and I don't think I yes my observation simply put is that we didn't say were discussing things right now right to say something on this radiation actually heard before going to talk to quit using we have engines quickly hop is a big discussion about that on these this classroom be gone in a in the beginning of this seventies right and then you make the whole presentation on this idea when I would point those watching to that whole presentation but encapsulated forth young the there was saw a report in nine games sixty eight which was unanimous of us in the question whether the last base be begun to on street processes based toward thing we Monday also was not then fickle and custom begun on it begun because of where particularly in Europe on United States a group of people who were already made their minds that we needed to one thing when and this loss defines a you begin up the discussion and then I make and was called appointed a committee to serve the general question of the day with what Kwok positions with women hopped into church on the butt that actually would never answer on we begun discussion on over ordination which is not yet finished with oh beside the door they women yet so far those will be no thing I'm not really accepted by the church but only openly and we hold that thought these discussions going on in in the next justices from the net two thousand and fifty nine I ninety to comment so I let him do that without the announcement of their site about go ahead and make it for a feminist outbreak of presidents who are also killing eleven job filling the comment was made it do we really haven't changed well maybe we haven't changed on the issue ordination but in fact we have changed we have changed because the policy was adopted that allowed women to be employed as commissioned ministers or commission pastors and there is virtually no difference between a commissioned woman pastor and ordain women thought pastor except that they commissioned woman pastor cannot pastor and other fields she's just limited to the local field as well as a policy that was in the North American division months what Maria Veloso comment on the exact nature that policy but it is prevalent and certainly in North America where we're hiring and commissioning women as pastors and there is no that virtually everything that an ordained minister dogs except there there limited to their particular local field itself the issue is not ordination as such because in this case ordination commissioning is virtually the almost identical so the issue comes down again to always qualify what is the Bible say about who is qualified to serve as elder or Mister and that is the the essence of the issue so in twenty fifteen the question cannot be your promotion cannot be related to ordination it must be him must be related specifically to the elder minister office and the office of elder minister and what is the Bible say who is qualified what does the Bible say about who is qualified to fill that office okay thank you us move on to another question and give Chris answers a spouse session or section number to another with some of you the parties for everyone spoken once I think it's great an hour to go back now for around two thirds of ability has requested what you think the issue this issue is important to think about globally and not just locally also wants to know no what you are the question does anyone want to take a shot at that I can add another one to it if you would like not on his wildest go with that is an important thing about this globally and methods locally was like you just let people go the wrong way and some sexual area subsection world my guess is that no answers ask a question this is a biblical issue and the Bible applies in Papua New Guinea and Kaplan do Nepal and in Loma Linda California equally okay and and therefore there can be no difference in the churches ordination policy if a person is ordained to the gospel ministry in the Seventh-day Adventist church that ordination applies globally like you got avoided someone else a chance at that but I want to add something to another person wrote this in my own although it was an administrator in his area they said this that the world the nine women's ordination in nineteen ninety because of quote in view of the possible risk of disunity dissension and diversion from the mission of the church and then also it was considered to be probably best and least disruptive for the world church at this time for the reason that was given was not a theological or biblical reason but an administrative reason why are you trying to make it a theological issue we are not trying to make it beneath a man on the being all the regarded raise her monitor a bit the question is wrong it should be quite we are making it not feel wrote the code for naturally becoming from the Bible it's about saying how to answer that question okay on going into another phase is the own the organization the first organization that was made of them by the Christian church for all but stored on ministry or evangelical ministry was a punk you for unbundling on which they were work okay it was not just for the division based in Doctor A's Fei was for the core word on the disarmament okay oh one more on this are two more I want to answer to land by asking a question okay this report go at the heart of the church decided that keeping the 737s is inconvenient let's go along with the rest of the church on an keep Sunday as the Lord today what would we do okay the salubrious another question but go ahead it has to be a global consideration because the issue of ordination affects humans on the most fundamental level of existence and that is gender and the image of God okay thank you now world object there were a couple questions that came in that I want to focus on you there were some people that were Leslie and actually a number of folk blogs that responded to your presentation even those only hours ago you evidently struck a chord with many people you've got their attention and so there were number things come together was on and bring these together and others start out here I understand that your presentation that the impact of the vinegar presentations the impact of spiritualism on feminism and gender issues today implied that all the goals of women rights women's rights movements are evil and satanic so does that really reflect your opinion or view another person said how can you say that spiritual list talking you pick and choose because spiritualist runs is just the question became impulsively spiritual as actually did quote a lot of good things they called for the abolition of slavery they had temperance activities and whatnot so how can you pick out of the things that they dad women's ordination at night knowledge that many good things they did so those of the two questions good luck number one I do not believe that everything that women's rights movement leaders were after was wrong on a day and do a lot of good things either were in other women have been slaves in these factories in some of the stories that you could read of history are abominable and there are still situations that are really really bad and we are not talking about that they did a great job in Internet helping people become aware of such abuse and cruelty so there is nothing i.e. a want to say more strongly than that that's what I was not talking about what I did talk about was that connections that and I was very specific on the quotes in the persons that I used to talk about spiritualism and so on I just encourage you go back and listened by really fat yet if you thought that I was really enough on as far as spiritual as believing in good things I have really nothing to say about that either because spiritualists I'm sure a lot of new agers believe in vegetarianism and I certainly wouldn't fault them for the vegetarianism I would open part of their motives behind it but just because somebody believes intemperance or something like that and I argue what they believe the end but why they believe and it can take it from that angle so I hope that's good okay this is you want to add to this okay Doctor Mills of you know you could go into a liquor store and areas are good in liquor there's water but it would be missing the point to talk about Goodson A and then die and I don't think that's what Laura will start in a Laurel another question for you since you're already warmed up here in your frontal lobe was pulsating of others then another one here because it appears in your presentation that you think feminism is the devil do you believe that it is wrong for women to vote it depends I don't think it's wrong for women to vote by a I do believe why White said about women voting that they are and what they're voting about okay and that goes for mentioning is true for me I mean there's no sense for me to look and just in LB a person that goes to the polls not knowing the issues and what I'm voting about Helen Dwight was very specific about that she said that they should know what they're there voting about and each one of us when we go to the polls need to understand the issues what the people are standing for and vote intelligently and yes I do vote who did you vote for logo design at okay this is a question of for the both of Bill Coulter Doctor O and Alan Davis as well here's the question in some areas of the world cultures are matriarchal and that's the way they have been and it works it seems very well for them how in the world would you go to Lowe's cultures and change then in this way while I wanted to change I'm not the one to be ethically the welfare of the outcome of the economy of thought is major article are not we have to uphold biblical principles and really view really going to be honest about the biblical principle was the page articles remain the stand in the way God made man in the way God made women but if I wanted to the page article society are matriarchal agencies the major society as a abroad such a broad question that doesn't change God 's will in this matter they are cultures that are all physical this is a culture in this country to skew towards Sunday worship we have to teach the gospel is true regarding okay I've got to know one of the things I think about in terms of that issue alone I'm just taking a look at where the Lord had placed Israel which was a patriarchal society many of the surrounding nations were opposite they were antithetical to what God had established in the Hebrew economy in particular with a matriarchal society one of the things we need to understand if we want to effectively promote the Gospel we need to understand the culture in which were going to operate we just can't go blindly into a culture for example those of us who are North American rate used can't think that were going to go over to China and take what we've done here and what we've learned and superimpose it on the culture we seem to debacle that's ensued with trying to take US diplomacy and projected on Afghanistan for example that doesn't necessarily work because the cultures are out of sync so we need to educate ourselves we need to consecrate ourselves to what the Bible has to say and do not equivocate holes hold fast and that's what Paul admonishes us to do all the time has been steadfast in season were moved to the next one because we get a lot of questions is so important that it is it okay for you is the parliament but alas we are looking about church governance not see the government is trying time he even we cool trying to superimpose the church governance into the sink of governance than we did follow a difficult in the church method in about the spiritual leadership off the church on Sundays there must be a coincidence could and were moved to another question what is the scriptural basis for transferring headship in the home to headship in the church my friends are asking this question I need to have a good answer you transfer that from law home to the church first Corinthians eleven three wet will will will Doctor Sergey Pendleton and then moving to the middle could edit the text I like to use first Timothy chapter three verse fifteen if a man secularist five and if a man cannot manage his household how Kenny who was the church and that is not the only text where were taking care of your home is prerequisite for taking care of the church that when there are multiple places well invoices at the fabulous small church and is the father cannot manage small church in his home how can he manage the church in and in the big church is fine manuscript releases off for forty nine in such a but there's also this concept in the New Testament that the church is not just the spiritual idea that this is actually a social community people call each other brothers and sisters because it's a family day actually in acts chapter two share everything in common they're supposed to because that's what brothers and sisters do they shared in common that this is a family once you enter here there's fathers and elders so-called and mothers and brothers and sisters and those who are heads of the families in either no eighty eight sixty five gross ignorance brings that house when you come to PNC church it's the same house so the heads of different families when they come to a big family would eventually be ahead of the big family you choose among the heads of the small families even Joseph had to be that summit was that even had in his own house okay good excellent with and spend a tiny bit more time on this because there were a number of people asking element for all another question and before you answer more about this headset transfer one other person wrote and directed to Mrs. Darcy and said while headship undergird abuse of women so be thinking about that while you have your two cents Doctor peters you just took just a little addition transferring from the home to the church does the question you if we look at the garden of Eden for example in the Garden of Eden before the fall it was home and they worshiped on the seventh and there was a statement from the spirit of prophecy that was read here I believe speculation I think you found that we should return to the eaten principle that statement where the father should be the priest of the home that's the evening and civil so in Eden it was both a church and home case of going back to the very beginning and then the world this question and may I think they probably ask you because they actually were thinking I want a woman's perspective on this playtime to hear that headship would lead to abuse that seems to be the new argument on the block hierarchy has nothing to do with cruelty and there is a loving leadership that Paul talks about in Ephesians five in fact it's so loving it's compared to Jesus Christ himself and to call that a cruel situation or compare it to a cruel situation is very bad I have seen some euro abuse in in different people like discuss things with and through the years I've noticed that a lot of abuse has to do with alcoholism and instead of just always blame and blaming it on a godly person or somebody that is supposedly hierarchical or something think about some of the other aspects of of society that archon thing a person to be cruel and in fact that has something to do with the original curse on him Genesis three sixteen but it's not got part of God 's plan it's part of what the devil does to destroy in the leader and a family and it is very tragic and it does have scars for life okay however reminds me of equipment just because no just because Jim Jones was a Baptist all Baptists are bad you can always find examples of extreme examples of some people would do something wrong with their position that doesn't mean that the position is wrong on so an excellent point that you make their one at the disco had out I wanted to add this idea of hierarchy I spent twenty one thoughts we seven years wearing this nation 's uniform as an Air Force officer we had hierarchy and in many ways it's countercultural based on the way the United States in general thinks about hierarchy but I will tell you we were a band of brothers but somebody had to be in charge somebody had to say goal and then the rest had to execute that didn't make bit it just wasn't tantamount to abuse it didn't intimate abuse it just meant that you had to have a formal structure otherwise how are you going to accomplish the mission okay one more question on headset that I want to throw in here that I have another couple questions on coming up your does the Bible doctrine of male headship mean women cannot hold executive positions in business are things outside of the church are in secular governments and maybe I'll direct them to our art historian so my politicians who route I don't know how you think that is but try look for a red tie and become a pirate face of this moment I have the answers the answer the question is no because we are talking about spiritual headship we are not talking about secular leadership I have probably voted from or female candidates for secular political office that a whole a lot of my fellow Adventists who favor women's ordination is to put a was a lot the follow-up there with but we won't okay let me move to another question and this one is handwritten was handed to me right here in our a lot of touring Romans thirteen says that whoever resists authority resist the ordinance of God the authorities that exist are appointed by God James the first of England use these arguments to assert the divine right of kings yet we would not have our civil and religious liberties today if people have not asserted themselves against his doctrine is this an example of how sometimes contemporary culture reform movements and form a moral compass that must sometimes apparently contradict a scriptural statement I guess simply put and you stand up by government that's misusing or using perhaps rightly using they think Scripture okay on good question for our quality or general or something are not all of the strutting of your voice Jesus said render unto Caesar the things that are Caesar's and unto God the things that are God 's so your make that my fellow player for us well it if you give it's a spiritual issue and we're dealing strictly with spiritual issues here than we have to look to the Scripture but if the government is having you do something that's not grunting running counter to what you believe from a fate this principle by all means you have to comply but if it cuts across what God has explicitly commanded us to do then we are to say no I'm not going this far no further though the heavens may fall the case up to the point of the question I think is there were times in history where people set up the government and change things for positive good and should we do that on the basis of Scripture was King James is in the Scripture right over the people of setup than using the Scripture right that's the question anyone else want to take when I like what you said but anyone else one after that I think it's a poor question and I will tell you why things important some people on the coordination side feels so strongly about this issue that they are still to the General conference because they said there misusing things as tubercular body remove it to get everyone awake and they think they have a basis to do that I'm not I think their motivation I can question it paper they probably think it's very right what they're doing but there they taken the August to stand up against the church governmental system and this question was right to a secular governmental system now that I have all your attention anyone going to take that on yes I think you try to compare apples and oranges okay really because were taking a look at an impetus that came from a cultural context we go back to the late nineteenth century and the very idea of women's ordination was born out of the equal rights movement which was conjoined with feminism and women's suffrage so now what we want to do is take what was purely a cultural issue because women's ordination was tied to it not saying it's right wrong or indifferent and supersede it is what it is and I were trying to take a cultural secular context and projected on an ecclesial one that dog don't hunt okay yes I just want to say I'm at I don't have a lot of experience in many communities in general conferences and eighty one date but but hopefully not much but it identities ways to bring up if you think that you have a new theological doctrine and ID are there ways to do it we doubt usurping the pulpit or authority or place a position to you as a professor so for example if you have an idea in going to disseminate unity among the unit you would get your students and annular pump up everybody and the things that you are and your idea to certain committees you will talk with the people who are in charge you about the symposium will tell collected you have about the things of that addict but the misuse your for example let's say you believe inside Sunday and U.S. Senate asset at this and then you use your pulpit in your churches get passed any preach I are at all-time this is misuse abuse of your position because you are using a seven out of this pulpit to preach I together against seven discharge when the nation has been voted twice for it that we do not allow it as a partisan at this practice and doctrine and dental school to send out this pulpit and to proclaim that idea against teaching and adopting the practice of the church is rebelling their ways to do this things without misusing and abusing your power over some students that just like a good great there there ways to do it and I and and often that an expert in this case has not been done properly fishes of the copies that I'm coming from the desktop rules Scripture shows that our understanding of Scripture itself depends on our our surrender to the Scripture itself on John seven seventeen says if anyone wills to do his will if we will to do his will he shall know concerning the doctrine whether it is from God or whether I speak on my own authority so the first question when Quinn apparently transfixed conflicting biblical views are being bandied about first thing I want to know is the MRI willing to do God 's will regardless the second thing Daniel twelve ten many shall be purified made white and refine but the wicked shall do wickedly and none of the wicked shall understand the wise shall understand and so our job is not to see what somebody else believes weather was changing her or Bishop what they believe the Bible says my job is in my surrender to God 's will because people can misinterpret the miss of misconstrue scripture and him I surrender to the Lord in FIM if I truly want to the led by him God promised I will understand and I believe God right on with the question is keep moving here as we need a new question for dates many people send in questions related to this but let me just use this one how do you answer those who believe that conservative Christians this sense of spiritual male headship is analogous or like the defense offered by earlier generations of religious conservatives for practices like soy Braden and racial segregation so you get the argument and I've heard it many times and a number of questions came in is that the arguments are using for headship sound a lot like the arguments that the slave master use against the slaves and what would you say to that well the analogy is erroneous and it and its and it's completely invalid because the arguments in favor of racial injustice many of them were so absurd that you wonder how anyone could have sustained them in an and in equipment will work with any kind of the any kind of intellectual clarity for example the claim engine that Genesis nine verse twenty seven teachers the subordination and subjugation of blacks were like that all it says is that you know by Japheth shall dwell in the tents of Shannon Canaan shall be of service I mean if you let the Bible be its own interpreter what is that mean the Canaanites were subjugated by the descendents of Shem and Jacob there's nothing there about black skin and visit visit this is a ridiculous argument in one wonders how why it was sustained so much except for the economic and cultural region reasons that in the American South this this was seen as so essential the point is that the big the bottom line difference between male headship and even for the segregation issue or the slavery issue is that gender is the one distinction in the human experience which God designed the Bible does not say slave and free created he them the Bible does not say black and white created the Bible does not say patrician plutocrat Libyan and hasn't created me that all of these are human constructs gender by contrast is a divine construct the Bible says Mayo and female created he them a man is that as a man in that mail history was put in the Bible or of a Muslim male hits it is outlined in the Bible by loving Creator who created us and knows what's best now Doctor O you know this slavery arguments you've probably heard a lot of those in other words I I sometimes feel like I'm a given example at the theology of ordination study committee a very prominent theologian got up on the very first day of the theology of study or nation to me you might remember this and got made a big speech and he said this is the day that William Wilberforce stood up against slavery and I Phillips appropriate that we stand up for women today and I was trying to bring in this racial argument what would you say in a situation like that I found myself a little bit upset in what happens is that you know I would save it just sounds like somebody to try to appeal to listen an emotional standpoint to make a decision based on emotion and should not make decisions based off our emotional reasoning everything out so what happens he was usually must use our reason yes that is a fact of these then it is all in justice but what we're dealing is not injustice towards women we affirm women in ministry but we believe that the Bible marks out distinctions and that at least he can be kept with the issue really is and what is not I have a couple questions I will put together they came in but they were about first the chapter three is the question I would put them together than with Roma both sides appear to repeat the same tax them over and over and over again is there a neglected text a blind spot that was the question okay and I you know I don't know what text they had in mind but I will tell you from listening on the committee those that were pro- ordination were always quoting Galatians chapter three at three twenty eight and twenty nine and then I don't know what the most quoted text was on the other side but it may have been the first seventy three or seventy two yes I would suggest that there are two neglected texts of blind spot the study committee was argued by pro- ordination scholars that husband of one wife and then came long paper twenty thirty minutes ultimately can mean wife of one husband a one hundred eighty the term one neglected text years prior to first Timothy five or snide but Paul uses a feminine term a woman of one husband which means a feminine version already exist they can be a woman of one husband and on the other hand as a husband of one wife for all wife of one husband and fibers nine and a husband of one wife in chapter three so to clarify that means these these phrases are gender specific the other neglected text as one that Don McIntosh used first Timothy chapter three verse fourteen through sixteen where after the gender does yes Paul now goes to the role is of God the father and the son and he demonstrates that submission of this unto the father in the incarnation than actually delay to the gospel being preached among the nations and so I I think that would be the biggest blind spot is the conclusion of Paul's articulation in first Timothy three is not end with the elders and deacons and husbands and wives but in the submission of the incarnation and the cost of the effect that had on the world I think of them in the e-mail also that was to cycle back to the Laurel Doctor Carquest like a man they asked the same thing can harm related to overtime why can't the first of the three won the fight be interpreted in a gender inclusive way while it because it's not gender inclusive it's very specific all persons that try to make an error whic


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