More and more scientists today are admitting that there can be truth outside of science. But some “new atheists” say it just isn’t so. They vehemently argue that you shouldn’t believe in what you can’t measure. Can you prove God? Can you prove science?

<p>More and more scientists today are admitting that there can be truth outside of science. But some “new atheists” say it just isn’t so. They vehemently argue that you shouldn’t believe in what you can’t measure. Can you prove God? Can you prove science?</p>

<p>Free sharing permitted under the Creative Commons <a rel="license" href="http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc-nd/3.0/us/">BY-NC-ND 3.0 (US)</a> license.</p>

Voice Of Prophecy

Shawn Boonstra

The Existence of God

>>[music)] Welcome to a brand new episode of Disclosure, our new broadcast from the good people at the Voice of Prophecy.

For the next little while, however many minutes we're together, I'm going to be your host from right here at the foot of the beautiful Rocky Mountains in Loveland, Colorado.

In fact, from where I'm sitting right now, I could actually be up in Rocky Mountain National Park in just over 30 minutes, and with a good tailwind, a little under 30 minutes.

Today I've got a very special guest in studio in addition to my drop-dead gorgeous wife Jean who's across the desk from me right now.

I mean you're the special guest but we have another special guest today.

Yeah, if you've listened to the Voice of Prophecy in the past folks, it's somebody you might already know and recognize.

Clifford Goldstein will be joining us today, well-known Christian author and one-time editor of Liberty magazine.

Now not too long ago Cliff and I were involved in sort of a public debate and I'm putting the word debate in air quotes.

You can't see me, but I'm putting quotes around it because we probably agreed on more than we disagreed on.

But this debate, in quotes, was on the campus of Washington Adventist University and we dealt with all kinds of topics ranging from religious liberty in America to sensitive issues like gun control and Cliff welcome to the show how are you doing today?

Always good to hear your voice I know we'll have some fun.

I remember Cliff when we had that debate some time ago I remember the moderator at the end saying that I pretty much demolished you and your arguments in front of all of those people.

And I feel bad about what we did to you, but you kind of had to leave with your head hanging and we'll be a little gentler with you today.

Cliff, I know that you and I have talked a lot in the past, and it turns out we have a lot of similar passions and beliefs, and I know that you're a big fan of philosophy and theology, and it has really formed a significant part of your ministry, dealing with issues like religious liberty and other issues like, say, the existence of God and so on.

Tell me, what are we going to be talking about today?

And you've heard the name, the new atheists.

Somebody would say, call them the 4 horsemen of the apocalypse.

Richard Dawkins, Daniel Dennett, Sam Harris, and the late Christopher Hitchens.

And actually, there's really nothing new about them.

Their arguments, they're pretty much the same old arguments that have been used for years and some some of the arguments are to a certain degree better than others and so forth but it they've been particularly docking says made a lot of news, he's made some very good-selling books, though all of them have written written books, and they've really brought the debate out in public and about the question of the existence of God.

So that's really where we're going to go today, the existence of God, right?

You know, it's interesting, you mentioned the arguments for it, against it, why do people believe, why do people not believe, and so forth.

And yeah, I think that would be an important 1.

You know what's interesting about those 4 horsemen, Cliff, is that I actually turns out you've heard of the 6 degrees of separation theory.

I discovered oh about 2 years ago that I'm 1 degree removed from Sam Harris.

And I've been itching to get invited somewhere where Sam Harris would show up.

Probably not as brilliant a debater as he is.

But as you're mentioning the 4 Horsemen, I thought I'd tell you, I've discovered I actually have a connection.

Anyway, he's quite vociferous in what he believes.

And he actually even wrote a book, I believe it was he wrote a book a while back.

I read it, I kind of remember the name now.

He was trying to argue from science alone that you could devise morality.

And you know, I don't think it worked, but it was still, I think probably did as good of a job as you could trying to use something like science to devise morality.

I disagree with his premises, but from his premises he argues pretty good case, if you accept his premises anyway.

Sure, you know, I think I want to get to that at some point in the show and talk about what some of the things they're saying.

You know, the reaction that a lot of people have when they disagree with somebody, the first thing they think is, well, they're just not informed.

And then if they find out, oh, these people are informed, they think they're dumb.

And then after that, if they find out they're not dumb, they think they're evil.

Those are sort of the 3 stages of arguing with somebody.

But we need to understand, you know, a lot of people disagree, especially if they're people of faith, but these guys make pretty rational arguments, well thought out arguments.

It's we're working from different premises.

They might look at the same things that we look at and they draw different conclusions and then with those conclusions, then sometimes those conclusions become their premises and if you're working with different premises you're in a sense you're speaking different languages but no no they are anything but dumb.

Well looking at the 4 men, their backgrounds with the exception of the late Hitchens, all 3 Dawkins, Harris, Dennett, they're scientists, you know Harris is a neuroscientist, so clearly these are educated intelligent men as you guys have explained.

Yeah, well that's actually 1 of the observations people have made is like Dawkins knows a lot in his own field but he's kind of wandered perhaps into fields that he doesn't know so he's a lousy theologian is the comment I've heard.

But listen, before we get to these guys, Cliff, walk us through, you know, let's talk about our own premises a little bit.

Let's talk about where you and I are starting from, where a lot of perhaps the listening audience is starting from.

What reasons do we have for believing in the existence of God?

I mean this is something that people have wrestled with for millennia.

What are some of the reasons that people give for believing in the existence of a divine being?

Well, there are a lot of different ways you can go on this.

I can tell I came to belief in God totally on an experience.

I didn't work my way logically and rationally, you know, point by point by point.

I was always somewhat a seeker, a seeker for truth and I had some experiences that got me to believe in God.

In fact, it's very interesting but there's an old phrase called Credo Ut Intelligam.

All right you're gonna have to you're gonna have to translate that 1.

Yeah yeah Credo Ut Intelligam and even though I only read it I read it only about 10 years ago it blew my mind because it was written by a guy who lived a thousand years ago.

And the gist of it is, I believe in order that I may understand.

In other words, I became a believer in God first.

I had a personal experience which said, wow, there really is a God.

I had a whole new set of first premises, a whole new set of first principles.

And then after I became a believer, then I started over time to build an intellectual foundation for my faith.

Now I realize that's not the way it always happens.

But in the end, even putting that aside, what do you say to someone, well I've never had a Damascus Road experience, I've never had you know God speak to me out of a cloud or whatever.

I still think 1 of the 1 of the this is an old rational argument it's the it's sometimes called the cosmological argument it's old it's nothing new and yet I still to this day think it's pretty powerful.

There's only 2 kinds of possible existence.

And if you could find a fault in it, let's deal with it now.

Something either, whatever exists was either once created, and that meant if it was created then it once did not exist.

Okay so sometimes philosophers call it it's a contingent existence.

It doesn't have to exist because at 1 point it didn't exist.

Okay, look around the earth, Sean Boonstra, my laptop, the universe.

I'm glad I made it second in your list Cliff.

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The Existence of God

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