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Michigan Conference of Seventh-day Adventists

Talking Points 3rd Quarter 2022: In the Crucible with Christ

Kameron DeVasher

Mark Howard

01 The Shepherd’s Crucible

I'm Cameron DeVasier and I'm Mark Howard and this is Talking Points.

We're now entering our third quarter of the year 2022.

It's hard to believe the year is flying by this quickly, but we have a new set of lessons, a new quarterly titled In the Crucible with Christ.

And so this lesson, we want to go through the first lesson, but also give an introduction to the whole quarter, what the theme is and what we're tackling.

Now in previous quarters leading up to this, we've studied the book of Genesis and before that it was the book of Hebrews and I believe it was Covenants before that.

So they were very, well especially the last 2, were books of the Bible and they had just a whole lot there directly from the Word of God.

This is more of a topic than it is a particular passage of scripture, and it's not even a fundamental belief like, say, the sanctuary or the second coming.

It's a very experiential, almost a psychology as much as theology type of quarter.

So it's definitely a transition from the type of lessons we've been used to for the last several quarters.

This one's going to be its own entity and so maybe that's a good thing, maybe that's a blessing.

I think certain people are probably gonna just eat this up and be looking forward to it.

Others might find a challenge like how do I present this topic especially if it's 13 weeks of suffering?

Well, we'll talk about that in just a second, but what I wanted to notice first of all, it says in the crucible with Christ and this week's lesson is titled the shepherd's crucible.

And it has a picture there of a crook a shepherd's crook, which is not as you pointed out a Crucible, it's not a crucible and I I don't know if it's gonna come later in the lessons, but so far there's been no talk of what a crucible even is.

So we were talking in our review that somebody who doesn't know what a crucible is might look at that picture and think a shepherd's staff, is that called a crucible or whatever else?

Because there really is no explanation in the lesson of what a crucible is.

But a crucible, of course, is a little bowl, a ceramic or metal or something, where you melt things down and it's intense heat.

And that term has been applied to experience where people go through the crucible.

It's not just a little piece of literature or something.

It's an experience where you're put through a hard, difficult time, but you know, hopefully in Christian context by God's grace, you come out new and something improved through the process.

Well you implied the crucible, the connection with the molten metal.

So when you notice all of the pictures, the illustrations in the lesson, they're all like the shepherd's staff is made out of molten metal.

Oh that's supposed to be a shiny metal thing, isn't it?

There's a couple little drops of spilled metal, liquid, whatever.

I'm learning in real time from Pastor Mark Howard what these symbols truly represent I am touched once in a blue moon it happened Well, so anyway to quote from the introduction pages of this lesson, it says, The lessons this quarter will focus on the topic of suffering, how Christians have, quote, faced despair, betrayal, disappointment, loss, injustice, and abuse.

So, those are some heavy, very negative-sounding topics, and that's what we're going to talk about this time.

But, it doesn't have to all be doom and gloom, because we are being led by God through this process and by His grace become more like Him.

So there's gonna be light at the end of this tunnel, for sure.

You've made it very painfully obvious that we prefer the books of the Bible kind of things.

Not necessarily, I guess topics aren't, but this 1 is obviously a, we may be on the side of, we've got 13 weeks of, we don't want to make it all that bad.

This lesson is based on the scripture, on Psalm 23.

And to be clear, different people think about things different ways.

So this may not be my cup of tea, that's okay.

Somebody else is gonna be richly blessed and might be able to draw things out and really minister to people in a great way.

So I'm not taking anything away from it in that sense.

I'm just saying putting talking points together could be challenging.

You did make a point that, well, this week's lesson is a good example.

So the lessons are based on the scripture to some extent for sure, but there is a tendency, you made a point that this lesson is, that you were, you didn't use the word experiential.

I said experience or psychology instead of theology.

But the idea of, it would be easy for a class to continually go down the road of opinion and how I feel about things and get away from the scripture.

So a task of the teacher this quarter is gonna be to discuss these important topics, but keep it in the context of biblical teaching, principle, whatever.

Because there are a lot of people who have a lot of opinions, even within the church, about how to deal with suffering that are not biblical and sometimes even counter-biblical.

That may make us feel good at the moment, but they really don't address or fix the situation, Scripture does.

And that's a great point because we're going to talk about obviously a range of different topics in Sabbath school, but the basis of Sabbath school is always going to be the Word of God and what does the Bible teach about this topic.

And that's going to be our endeavor here.

Of course, we're going to use the lesson guide as it should be, but the scripture is going to be our authority.

Anyway, with all that being said, this week's lesson does, as you mentioned, walk through the 23rd Psalm.

It's all 6 verses of it and basically each day just takes it a piece at a time.

And so this is a great piece of scripture.

It talks about the shepherd and the sheep and how he leads.

So there's a lot in there in those few verses.

And that's basically the structure of this week's lesson study.

So let's have a word of prayer and then you can give us the talking points for this week.

Heavenly Father, we are so thankful for the testimony of your word, and Lord, that even in the trying times of this life, we know that we have a shepherd who can guide us safely through.

We pray that you would bless our study of this lesson, for we ask it in the name of Jesus and for his sake, amen.

Everyone's probably had to memorize that at some point.

Now before you dive into that, and maybe you're getting into this, but you had mentioned when we were talking together that 1 of the things, I don't know if it's in the lesson or the introduction, that this is not a study on theodicy.

Well, let me just make sure we don't misstate it.

It says it right here, this is page 3 on the introduction, yeah, the third or fourth paragraph on the page.

It says, our lessons are not a theodicy, comma, the justification of God in the face of evil.

Instead, they're an attempt to help us work through the inevitable suffering we all face in a world in which sinning is as easy as breathing.

So It says we're not trying to justify God in our suffering, just kind of reckoning with the experience itself.

I'm not quite sure what they're getting at there.

And I say that because in the first lesson, the shepherd's crucible, this is a capital S shepherd.

And again, in our discussion, a crucible is not something used by a shepherd.

And so to tie that, this becomes the shepherd, capital S, Christ's crucible, his method of using refining in the life of the believer, which would speak to theodicy in my mind.

And so even in the first day's lesson it talks about this young woman who is wrestling with some heartbreak, a difficult situation, and the last sentence of Sabbath's lesson says, could it be possible that even this painful betrayal by a friend, this dark valley, could be used by God to train her in righteousness?

Now to me, to show how suffering might be something that God is using is part of, is theodicy.

It definitely touches on the bigger issue of why is there suffering?

And I can't see, as Christians, spending a whole quarter, I mean, I would think that every lesson from a Christian perspective is dealing with theodicy.

In other words, why did God allow this suffering?

And it's an explanation of how suffering isn't always an evil, but God can use it as a good.

Well, my guess is they're going to be looking at the same thing if they were to address theodicy.

They'd be looking at why did God do this?

Where does, when does God, and it's all focused on God and we'd be the after effect.

This is flipping it around saying, we're going to look at the experience of pain and maybe touch on the God part, but really, and so, but you're right.

You're not going to escape the connection there.

Anyway, the 23rd Psalm is the basis of our study.

I guess the reason I bring that up is I would encourage the teachers, when you're talking about suffering, it's the age-old question.

If God is so good, why does he allow suffering?

02 The Crucibles That Come

I'm Cameron DeBasier and I'm Mark Howard and this is Talking Points.

We're now on our second lesson getting deeper into the crucible with Christ series of studies here.

This 1 is titled, this week's lesson is the crucibles that come.

So it's kind of I guess looking at all the different types of things that are going to have challenges.

Well yeah basically 2 major types of trials.

Trials that come from being Christian and trials that come from our own foolish mistakes, which we'll expound on a little bit.

We'll get into that in just a little bit, But I was encouraged by this 1 that you know we're not we are victims of course trials But we're also the culprits and stuff and so there's some bringing it on ourselves And how do we deal with all those I think?

Basically how do we deal with it is really the aim of this lesson?

That's right now I have to say our second venture into this lesson.

You know the first lesson we thought about a quarter worth of trials and it was like wah-wah.

But as I've had a chance to look through some lessons I appreciate the contributors some of his thoughts and this particular not just this lesson but some of the others So I think it's gonna be a good quarter.

Just that initial idea of a whole quarter on trials.

It was a bit daunting at first, like boy, I hope every week is not just a negative week.

But I've seen some good stuff in here, and this week's no exception.

Got some good stuff in this week's lesson.

And you put the talking points together for this week.

So how about I'll start with a word of prayer and you can walk us through the lesson.

Heavenly Father, thank you so much for this opportunity to study these important themes.

Thank you for these lessons that have been put together and now the opportunity to prepare for the Sabbath school studies and classes that are coming up.

Bless every teacher and bless every student, everyone that has a part in this study, that we may be more like Jesus.

Incidentally, that was just a little lackluster repentance from my comments from last time.

I haven't studied through all of them yet, but I am encouraged that even there's the potential of, we're going to pull out of this low kind of maybe burdensome kind of thing and we're going to really see some deep themes that we're going to expound on.

Well, I just think, you know, we free to comment on, you know, things that we either like or dislike about a lesson.

And sometimes I think about if the contributor were to watch, I don't want to defame a person.

Yeah, this lesson is awful, which we didn't say that.

Because the quarterly is the adult teachers, in this particular case, Sabbath School Bible Study Guide.

This is the lesson book for Sabbath school folks.

Our talking points this week, well, this week we're highlighting the various crucibles we may experience and how we can best respond to them.

Now, you mentioned last week how crucible was not defined.

This week's lesson does define what a crucible is on Sabbath afternoon's lesson.

A vessel used for melting a substance that requires a high degree of heat or a severe test that's a, you know, drawn from that imagery.

And so that's highlighted as we get into it.

So the various, what are these various crucibles or trials that we find ourselves in and how can we best respond?

Talking point number 1 that I came away with is that there are trials that result from following Christ just because we're Christians, Sunday and Monday's lesson.

Talking point number 2, some trials are the direct result of our sins.

And that is Tuesday's lesson and the bulk of Tuesday's lesson.

And then the third talking point is all trials are permitted, whether they be those trials that come because we are faithful to Christ or because we are unfaithful and we've made foolish decisions.

Yet God can use all those things, all things work together for good, to develop Christ-like characters.

So third talking point, all trials are permitted to develop Christ-like characters.

Well, it seems like there's gonna be a lot in that third point, like all trials and they're permitted and it's the aim of this.

There are trials that result from following, that almost seems, especially if you were outside of Christianity, like well the whole benefit of Christianity is it gets better.

You know, The lesson even highlights that on Sunday, the fifth paragraph says, many of us are surprised about suffering because we often have an oversimplified view of the Christian life, or even a just plain wrong 1.

Like the idea that I'm going to become a Christian and then I'll be trial free, like prosperity preaching.

You become a Christian, you're going to make lots of money, and you're going to this and you're going to that.

Look at the greatest people of the Bible and find 1 who didn't go through trials.

And so Peter tells us in our, it's in our memory verse, which I have not memorized as yet of yet.

Beloved, do not think it strange concerning the fiery trial, which is to try you as though some strange thing happened to you, but rejoice to the extent.

And we're gonna comment on that a little bit more, but he says very plainly, don't think it strange.

It's not strange for a Christian to suffer.

And 1 of the main reasons for that is that a Christian, a Christian, is a follower of Christ.

Then how in the world can a follower be free from the suffering of his master?

If they hated the master, Jesus said, that they called the master of the house Beelzebub, how much more those who are of his household?

So trials should not surprise, and I've got this in our notes, trials should not surprise any follower of Christ.

The Bible clearly tells the Christian that trials will come merely as a result of choosing to follow Christ.

You're taking a different course from the world.

Second Timothy 3.12 tells us that all who live godly in christ jesus shall suffer persecution First peter chapter 5 talks about the devil Roaming about like a roaring lion Seeking whom he may devour You can expect a level of trial there, Acts 14, 22.

Which says, strengthening the souls of the disciples, exhorting them to continue in faith and saying, we must through many tribulations enter the kingdom of God.

So That's just 3 passages we've looked at out of so many in scripture like oh I'm so surprised and yet I say this I myself when a hard time comes when I go through a trial I first response is it Lord why like where did this come from why is it and we should know better and we almost I think what maybe maybe not you maybe it's just me but are almost formulaic about it's like but I haven't been doing this bad thing and I have been doing this good thing, so therefore the equation is I get good.

And It's not an algorithm like that where you put in the things and out comes this.

And furthermore, the Bible tells us that trials will come, but it further teaches that believers should not only expect trials, but rejoice in the trials.

Again, in our memory verse there, don't think some strange things happen to you But rejoice to the extent that you partake of Christ's sufferings That when his glory is revealed you will be glad with the seeding joy.

James says something similar in James chapter 1.

In fact, let's look at, I would refer to this in class, James 1 verses 2 and 3.

03 The Birdcage

We're on our third lesson of the In the Crucible of Christ quarter, quarter 3 of the year.

This week's lesson is titled The Birdcage.

And that title, yeah, it comes from the story that Sister White told, the illustration from Ministry of Healing, page 472, which is recorded on Saturday afternoon's lesson.

Essentially, the idea being that, you know, a bird that you want to teach a song in the full light of day won't learn it, but if you cover it and put it through a dark time, it'll learn to sing the song you want it to sing and it'll keep it for the rest of its life.

So, it's an interesting way to introduce this idea, but essentially, the purpose of this week's lesson is to explore the fact, the reality, that the Lord not only walks with us through hardship, but that He sometimes purposely leads us into difficult circumstances.

He's not just accompanying, he's directing.

And we'll see a pickup from last week's lesson, just building on that same.

And I have noticed that in this quarter's studies, they really are, there's a lot of overlap to previous lessons.

I mean, it's a pretty narrow topic about suffering and conflict, so we're gonna end up with some of the same passages.

And the purpose of trials is the purpose of trials, and there's only so many ways you can slice it.

But we're still gonna have a blessed study, I'm sure of it.

Heavenly Father, we are so thankful for the privilege we have of studying your Word and helping to teach it to others.

I want to pray especially for our teachers who are preparing that you would bless them in their preparations and that your spirit would especially guide their minds and their words as they conduct classes that would help people to gain confidence in you in their trials and Lord that they would not lose their hope but have that constant hope of heaven and that they would also be able to be a blessing to those around them who fall into trials as well.

We ask and pray all these things in Jesus' name, amen.

All right, In this lesson of the birdcage, I was able to draw out 3 different distinct talking points because if you go through the lesson, you'll notice that just overview real quickly on Sunday and Monday, it gives examples from God's leading of ancient Israel, the Red Sea and the waters of Merah and Riffidim.

Then we get into Tuesday where it says the great controversy in the desert, which you would think would be about Israel, but it's actually Jesus being led by the Holy Spirit into his wilderness experience, we'll look at that.

And then essentially Wednesday and Thursday are days of application of the lesson.

So it made some pretty clear talking points at least in my mind and number 1 is that God led ancient Israel.

Okay we take that from Sunday and Monday and it seems like an incidental thing but it's got a really deep purpose behind it.

Well, how many times did the Israelites accuse Moses of being the leader when things didn't go the way they wanted them to go?

Because it didn't seem to them like the way that they were going was the way they should have gone.

Anyway, talking point number 2, God led Jesus like he led ancient Israel.

So building on Israel, Jesus was the same way.

And then finally, talking point Number 3, God leads us as he did Israel and Jesus.

So it's a very simple progression this week.

We're looking at God's leading of Israel and this thing that's a model for how he led Jesus and then surprise, surprise is exactly how he leads us.

Now, we sometimes might take that for granted, but think about it from the ancient Israelites perspective.

As they have seen Egypt fall under the plagues of the Lord, and they make their exit, you would assume that all the bad was in Egypt and now we're under the guidance of the Lord and so nothing but sunshine and roses ahead, right?

But the very first place he leads them is to the edge of the Red Sea.

And you've got the mountains on 1 side, the sea ahead, you've got Pharaoh's army pressing in.

And why did the Lord choose to do it that way?

The next thing you see is Merah and Riphidim, there's no water drink, 1 was the bitter water.

And the lesson only pointed out these 2, but you could go through experience after experience where they were hungry, they were thirsty, they were in danger, they were taking a circuitous route, it wasn't as direct, it took too long.

And as you brought up time and again, the people would lose heart, lose faith, get frustrated, complain and murmur, take out their issue with Moses, when really their issue was the God who was leading Moses to lead them.

I still, the thing that always comes to my mind is the rebellion of Korah when the earth opens up and swallows up the rebels and they blame Moses for it.

But it's just very, because God wouldn't do or lead this way or whatever else, kind of what you're getting at.

Well, and there's this expectation, and I wanted to kind of get to this.

I've got it in the notes there, but if you would read Exodus chapter 17, verse 1.

Then all the congregation of the children of Israel set out on their journey from the wilderness of sin according to the commandment of the Lord.

Go to verse 7 because 7's got the high point, I'm sorry, but 1 through 7.

And they came to Bevedim where there was no water.

Verse 7 says, so he called the name of the place Hamasah and Meribah because of the contention of the children of Israel and because they tempted the Lord, saying, is the Lord among us or not?

Aha, see, in my estimation, that question, that was their refrain, how can we be, you know, stuck here with either bitter water or no water at all?

David You know, we think about it, what comes to my mind is the pillar of, always the pillar of cloud and the pillar of fire.

David Like they had a visible representation of the Lord's presence.

But how many tokens do we have around us?

Honestly, of the Lord's guidance and leading, you know, so we want to point fingers at them, but the reality is it's so easy when things don't go our way to say, well, is the Lord in this or not?

Despite all the evidences that he's with us.

And he's talking about the parallel to last week's study.

We talked about how, we've studied this, scripture is very clear that we should be surprised when challenges come up, but the children of Israel needed to learn that lesson that God was trying to teach them that, well, I don't want to get too much into the application point yet, but this underlines this point that God was not merely accompanying Israel as they aimlessly wandered through the desert and protecting them and feeding them when necessary.

Series

Talking Points 3rd Quarter 2022: In the Crucible with Christ

03 The Birdcage

Transcript

Parent Series

Sponsor

Recorded

Talking Points 3rd Quarter 2022: In the Crucible with Christ

02 The Crucibles That Come

28m

Talking Points 3rd Quarter 2022: In the Crucible with Christ

08 Seeing the Invisible

29m

2nd Quarter 2020: How to Interpret Scripture

03- Jesus and the Apostles’ View of the Bible

1h 14m

Talking Points 3rd Quarter 2022: In the Crucible with Christ

01 The Shepherd’s Crucible

31m

No Trial Wasted

39m

Walking With Jesus Through Final Events

47m

2nd Quarter 2020: How to Interpret Scripture

04- The Authoritative Source of Our Theology

1h 11m

Decree to Destroy Turned to Deliverance

58m

Talking Points 3rd Quarter 2022: In the Crucible with Christ

11 Waiting in the Crucible

31m

The National Reform Movement & The Mark of the Beast

1h 3m

Plenary

When Loss is Gain

57m

Talking Points 3rd Quarter 2022: In the Crucible with Christ

13 Christ in the Crucible

29m

Sound Doctrine