GYC 2013: Before Men and Angels

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Generation. Youth. Christ. (GYC)

GYC 2013 Seminar: Lessons from Job for the Great Controversy

Michael Younker

01-Part 1: Preparing for the Stage and the Story Behind the Curtain

This message was presented at the DYC 2013 conference, Before Man and Angels, in Orlando, Florida.

For other resources like this, visit us online at www.dycweb.org.

My name is Michael Yonker and I'm a PhD student from Andrews University studying theology.

My special interests are related to theodicy.

I'm really into the issues of freedom and time and what they might mean in philosophy, so kind of some technical stuff, but it's very important to make these issues relevant for everyone and practical.

And so I will be sharing a little bit about Job and the great controversy in a three-part series.

So you'll have to come back to get more of it.

And then also, although in the schedule, I'm scheduled to do it again, at the moment I'm planning to do 3 separate related lectures, afterwards for whatever, 4, 5, and 6.

So I will be addressing some other dimensions, some other angles that relate to these themes from the life of Abraham and others on understanding who God is, our kind of our vision of Christ thing, which will emerge as a theme.

So I will not be repeating my lectures at the moment.

I'm planning to share 3 unique ones for those of you who wish to know that.

All right, I will have a quick word of prayer and then we will begin.

Dear Father in Heaven, we Thank you so much that we can be here at GYC, where we have an opportunity to meet and share with others who are of a like-minded interest and focus and passion.

We ask that your Holy Spirit will be with us this morning as we study a little bit more about the life of Job and some of the very difficult challenges and problems that the suffering of the righteous always brings to our minds.

Again we ask that your spirit will be with us for this session and for the entire time that we are together.

I shifted the title a little bit to without a curtain or dressing room the play as real life if that needs a brief explanation What I simply am implying is that Job, obviously, as most of us are familiar with, kind of opens up with something kind of, you know, behind the scenes.

It opens up with a bigger picture, and I want to help us focus on why the play as real life is where most of us start.

And so whether it's in our own lives or in the lives of those that we're trying to share with, we need to kind of dig in and understand what it was really like for Job without knowing what was behind the curtain or without knowing what was going on in the dressing room of reality that was shaping his events.

So I'm going to kind of shift it a little bit, our orientation.

But I first want to quickly note Job's importance.

I just wanted to open with this quotation from the Spirit of Prophecy, Ellen White, Signs of the Times.

She notes that while Moses was preparing for his ministry, he wrote the books of Genesis and Job, and she implies that both of them will be of extreme interest to all Christian people, all Bible-believing and reading people until the close of time.

So I believe that Genesis and Job together, which she suggests were the earliest books written, are of special importance.

And I'll just add some footnotes, since this is not what I would call a scholarly kind of an audience.

There are challenges with verifying the authenticity of the authorship of Job.

It's basically impossible to prove the timing and so forth and who wrote it, Moses, but there is a strong tradition amongst Jewish readers in history that Moses is a probable author.

But just noting that, and I won't get into any sorts of overly technical details on criticisms.

My approach for sharing about Job is again to go through part 1 without a curtain or dressing room, to play as real life.

There's no time to step back and be, you know, a little bit more objective about it.

I want to show you Job's life experience without the prologue and the conclusion.

So we're going to jump right into the experience of Job.

In part 2, to quickly summarize the series, friends and foes, the dangers of common sense theology.

And I'll know that when I get there, I'll need to kind of explain what I mean by the dangers of common sense theology, because common sense can be very appealing.

But as we see through Job's friends, common sense can lead us down some dangerous paths, especially when we're trying to relate it to our everyday life.

So we're gonna dig into some of the theological problems of these dialogues and why they especially speak to the issues of the justice of God or theodicy.

And then in part 3, wisdom's recluse or revealing the veil.

In this part later this afternoon, I'm going to talk a little bit about how we might shift our minds to look at the questions of theodicy and Job's life in a different way.

When we think about them in a very, I'll call it a skeptical or atheist kind of a point of view.

There are always going to be a lot of very troubling problems here, but that does not necessarily need to be the case for the Christian.

And if we kind of change the way that we think about the issues that Job presents, We can see God, who is wisdom's recluse, at least for most of the narrative of Job, a little bit differently, and we can, so to speak, reveal the veil.

And I've worded that specifically here to kind of understand what it is that's obscuring our view or our problems behind the situation in Job.

So we'll explain a little bit about how the divine speech's wisdom's interlude, you know, and so forth can illuminate Job's experience.

For any of you who might not know it, it is the justice of God in the light of evil.

There's a lot of things that happen that are not pleasant.

This is the question that everyone will ask in life.

This is not the kind of question that humans can just bypass in life without ever kind of wondering about.

You know, why is it that Awful things happen to ordinary people, many of whom are flawed in their own ways, but also, of course, to those that we kind of think of as better people, you know, the kind of the good people.

How come awful things seem to happen to the good and the bad alike?

These kinds of questions are just so prominent in our everyday experience of life.

As we meet people that may have differing beliefs, different religions, different pictures of God, etc.

It's hard to hide from the disasters that befall us.

And of course, nature is involved as well.

The animals, why so much suffering, pain, and death?

These are questions that we all ask and wonder about.

Now, I do believe that there is a rest of the story.

I don't know if any of you are familiar with Paul Harvey.

He was a long time radio, he had a radio show, radio broadcaster, and he would always tell stories that were missing 1 or 2 important details.

And then when he shared that detail, it would connect with his audiences, oh yes, everyone knows this story and kind of, you know, now they understand other sides, other aspects of the story that they didn't before.

And so he was famous for that and he also did have Adventist connections, by the way.

His wife was a Seventh-day Avenist, I understand, and he was sympathetic to our views as well later in life.

And so likewise, I want to note that we may not always know how we are Influencing others in our lives or what our lives mean for others and for those around us And I think that is of course a perfect Theme or perfect tie-in to this year's theme before men and angels We don't always know who's watching and for what purpose so the rest of the story can be somewhat Elusive to us sometimes But before we get to the rest of the story, I do want to kind of jump into Job, right into his life, what it was like to be Job and to have this situation befall him without reading first.

And don't misunderstand when I say without reading first because obviously I think that the Holy Spirit inspired Moses during his time there in the wilderness to write the book of Job in the way that it was written.

Okay, but I want to help us kind of, because we usually when pastors or anyone else may share on Job, most of their emphasis is usually on the first chapter.

And so I want to kind of skip that and look in, go right over that and then come back to it and see if that kind of changes the way that we're looking at Job's situation and also helping us understand how other people who are not as familiar with the story of Job might see life and so we can kind of relate to them a little bit better.

So we're going to not step back and get the quote unquote or attempt to get the big picture but jump right in.

And I want to mention that we're already living in the pain.

This is something that we cannot hide from.

I don't know how all of you are relating to the situation of Job and the suffering of the righteous.

Right now I have to just briefly share my step-grandmother, Ruth, who became an Adventist about 15 years ago.

The last 5 years she has gone through a, you know, doctors are struggling to diagnose it.

You know, she converted to Adventism again about 15 years ago and she embraced the message wholly.

She adjusted to the Adventist diet, became vegan basically, and completely became and sold on to the Adventist understanding of reality.

But then even though she is still Relatively young and was in good health just 7 years ago.

Just the last 5 years She has had a very steady decline where every part of her body has just begun to shut down and the doctors don't know why And she is right now Not doing very well and may not live much longer and it's a mystery, you know for my grandfather It's very difficult for him You know He had been in Adventist in his younger life and then had left and then had come back with her into the faith.

He's handling it well, But it is always a struggle when things just don't seem to make sense.

Why would this happen after embracing the health message, etc.?

Why such a painful and mysterious decline into suffering?

And so we all have our connection with these kinds of stories and they can be very frustrating as we try and grapple with what they mean.

So Job's activities, let's look just from his point of view, skipping again most of the prologue, this is in chapter 1, but it's Job's perspective.

So his sons used to go out and hold their feasts with them, you know, doing things, and Job was such a wonderful father that he would offer burnt offerings.

Now some people when they read this think that he's actually receiving through his offerings the forgiveness of his children's sins.

I think he is simply through the burnt offerings, not sin offerings, he is simply doing his fatherly family responsibilities and praying with earnest concern for his children.

02-Part 2: Friends and Foes, Statements and Replies

Again for anyone who may be coming in for the first time, my name is Michael Yonker and I'm a PhD student in theology at Andrews University.

I'm sure some of you are GYC veterans, but I am not.

And so it is my pleasure and privilege to be able to join you for the first time.

Being from Michigan, I have to note that I had to shovel off a foot of snow early in the morning to clear the driveway to be able to get on the plane to come here.

I know a few of you no doubt come from northern climates as well and can understand that, but I like your choice, or whoever chose it, of Orlando this year to kind of get a little bit of a break, a warmer climate.

For those of us that are more than accustomed to the cold weather and the snow, I really enjoy being in a nicer, warmer climate.

So I had closed last time just with the beginning of Job's 3 opening responses to the situation that had befallen him and how he is struggling to put it all together in his mind.

And I had noted that although I think Job comes very close to cursing God right from the beginning, he never does.

And he actually maintains a fairly consistent position throughout his responses to his friends, again, wavering in some cases, and definitely misunderstanding some things.

It's very important to recognize that Job is ignorant of the big picture as we proceed.

And again, I don't think that he is actually wanting to die, as I noted, just he is saying he's ready to die, if that were the case.

Now, I want to pause again and just remark on the question of theodicy again.

I mentioned it at the beginning of the last lecture, but I really want to get it sharp and clear in our minds so that we know what we're actually asking when we try and understand or create or formulate a theodicy.

Someone again, although I mentioned it last time, but someone give me the answer.

It is an understanding of the justice of God in light of, particularly, our suffering, in light of the suffering of the world and those around us.

What kinds of responses, I'm just taking a little bit of a diversion here beyond what I have in the slides, but I think it's important and I didn't put it in, but I think it's important.

Do you know what kinds of responses have been given that are out there and that are very popular right now.

What kinds of popular theodicies are floating around out there to answer these questions?

Okay, Can you name a major position that might think that way?

Have you ever heard of this by the Calvinists?

If you go back and look up the notes on what Calvin wrote, you will find that he does embrace this, that it was God's pleasure, he says, that Adam should fall so that God might be glorified.

When you read it for the first time, and you know, wow, what was going through John Calvin said, because of course many things that Calvin wrote I would agree with, and I'm speaking here very broadly, very loosely.

He wrote many good things, some solid commentaries on various passages of the Bible.

He was fighting against some other bigger problems.

But then he has some zingers like this, you know, it's like, wow, How can you even think that way?

How can you live your life knowing that everything that happens is just God's good pleasure?

That Adam's fall was just perfectly part of God's plan.

So that's kind of 1 view, hard Calvinism as it's called.

Do you know of some other responses out there that are popular, especially in Christianity, but if you are thinking of others you can share them as well.

What are some other popular theodicy or answers to the theodical question?

I don't know if that's a good problem, but pretty much all the gods are the same.

It's kind of like a mall, a toy shop, a mall, a toy shop, a mall.

Deism, if you haven't heard the deistic view of the world, is that basically there is a God.

They don't have a problem acknowledging a divine power, But God basically, you know, like lit a match, you know, and, you know, put it onto reality, and it just burns in whatever way it wants, you know, and God doesn't really, isn't really involved at all.

This is a kind of a popular view, And in some form or another, I think, it has infiltrated certain kinds of Christian thinking, you know, in various ways.

I wouldn't call it a dominant Christian view because it basically is rejecting Christianity, that's the whole point.

But I think that its seeds have infected some Christians, that a little bit of too much live and let live, you know, just a little bit too much free play.

So that's kind of a deistic view, a deistic view that God just kind of lit the match to reality and just the fire and the wind and the smoke blows any way that it wants.

What is another popular view, especially in Christianity right now?

Can you think of another 1 that is an answer to the theodical question?

Have you heard of authors like Gregory Boyd?

No, okay, not quite in the theologians reading circles.

He's a fairly popular evangelical theologian.

You know what the word evangelical means.

Basically that means a higher view of scripture, that very loosely translated, it just means a higher view of scripture because there are very low view of scripture Christians.

But Greg Boyd does take the Bible seriously and he tries to make sense of it.

And he advocates something called the open view, the open view of God.

I'm kind of curious what you folks may have heard of.

If you've heard of the open view of God, I know that surely some of you have.

Okay, then I'll share what it is because it is very popular in scholarly theologian circles.

The Open View of God, as Gregory Boyd has shared, and he actually has written several books on what he calls warfare theodicy, And it presents a picture that is in some ways, in fact, a dissertation was written at Andrews University comparing Gregory Boyd's view and Ellen White's view.

And basically, the open view of God is a very attractive option, even though I believe that it's incorrect.

I think it's very hard in essence is false, but it basically implies that God is doing everything that He can, that God is limited in some ways, that God, a key point of contention in it, a very sore point of contention, is that God does not know the future.

God does not know the future in the open view of God.

So that's why it's open, so the future is open to him.

He does not have divine foreknowledge, which scripture seems to imply.

And yet, in fact, that's something that isn't really very present in Job, but I'm really into these issues.

And so, and since they're infecting a lot of pastors and other folks that you might be listening to, or your friends might be listening to, the people you're trying to reach might be listening to, I will go ahead and share a little bit about them.

But the open view of God is that God does not really know the future, so He is actively involved in the present, and He tries to work with us and the world as He can, But he's limited.

And whenever you see in Scripture, and this is again 1 of the key points of contention, whenever you see in Scripture what would be called prophecies, you're probably well aware that Seventh-day Adventism has a very heavy emphasis on prophecy.

So that for the open view of God, they want to reinterpret all prophecies to be conditional.

All prophecies, because we know, and that is again something that Adventists recognize, that Not all prophecies that were given in Scripture, when they were given, were unconditional.

Sometimes God did let people know that if you do this, then this will happen.

So the open theists are right to identify the existence of conditional prophecies, that God relates to reality and to humans in a conditional way.

The Old Testament is replete with these examples, it's full of them.

03-Part 3: Wisdom’s Recluse?

This message was presented at the GYC 2013 conference, Before Man and Angels, in Orlando, Florida.

For other resources like this, visit us online at www.gycweb.org.

I hope you had a good lunch and are feeling somewhat refreshed.

The schedule of activities, if you try and keep going with the flow, is very intense for this GYC program.

But it is good to be back and I'm glad that you are joining for part 3 and this is a conclusion and I probably, as I mentioned earlier, I will not be sharing it again.

I'm actually going to share some other new fresh presentations that are on related themes, that are related to these kinds of questions that are raised in Job.

But we'll spin it from a little bit of a different perspective.

So for anyone that wants to return later or tomorrow or Sabbath, I will have different talks.

But you are free to listen to some of the other excellent choices.

Job part 3, wisdom's recluse or revealing the veil.

And I will have another quick word of prayer as we begin.

Dear Father in heaven, I ask that Your Holy Spirit will be with us as we continue to wrestle with some of the most difficult, deepest and profound questions that humanity has inquired of their Creator.

We ask that you will guide us in a fruitful and productive way.

And may the knowledge not only be beneficial for ourselves, but also for awakening our mind to understand those that we may come in contact with, that we may better share your love with them.

Wisdom's recluse or revealing the veil, I kind of gave a hint at this tricky title and what it means.

And revealing the veil is kind of where I want to push us when we're looking for answers to some of these kinds of theodicy, God, divine justice questions.

And by revealing the veil, you know, what is the veil?

Kind of between, you know, it's what keeps rooms separate.

And by revealing the veil, I want to kind of pull, it's hard to, I'm trying to create some imagery here, pull the curtain back so that we can see the curtain.

So I want to kind of reorient our minds about how we think about some of these kinds of questions.

And I think that the best answers come when we can shift the way that we think about certain kinds of problems.

Because some methods of reasoning, if you have ever studied any philosophy or anything like this, any forms of logic or this or that, you'll find that certain logics, certain reasoning, certain mathematical methods, they are very good at accomplishing what they're supposed to accomplish but they cannot accomplish other things and so sometimes I think that the way that we think our common sense can lead us into some traps when we try and wrestle with some of these very difficult questions so that's why I want to reveal the veil talk about what the boundary is or what it is that is actually masking us from going forward.

Here again is our friend Job suffering with his friends.

And by the way, for a couple of you, I don't know who they were exactly but I am I did insert a few slides on Elihu and I will talk a little bit about him their fourth friend that I have not mentioned thus far much but he does say some interesting things and although he doesn't actually answer the question either, and that's why I kind of ignored him, because he really plays right into God's divine discourse.

But I did add a little bit on him during the break.

And in parentheses, what is God's issue for this Jobian saga?

And is Job's point of view helpful to him?

And or what is really going on on the perspectives.

Job's perspective, you can find it throughout and I will cite a few.

Job 6 4, the arrows of the Almighty are in me, my spirit drinks in their poison, God's terrors are marshaled against me." Does that sound like someone that is going to be defending God?

I hope that we don't need to say this and you know why?

That's sort of 1 of the things, that was why I had kind of skipped the prologue in the beginning to really get into your mind that what if you don't have that prologue?

If you do not know about Satan, if you do not have insight on the great controversy theme, you have to say this.

Either that or God is not in control because the natural evil, you know, runs rampant and somehow all this confluence of unfortunate events came together on this 1 day and, you know, destroyed this man's life by sheer coincidence.

So from Job's perspective, without the prologue, and for people who have not understood or see reality in the Jobian way, you have either horrible, tragic coincidence, or you have God doing it.

Sheer coincidence, natural evil, or God doing it.

And that's why, what does Job default to?

Well, he believes in God, and so he says, well, it must be God.

Job 16, 10 chapters later, God assails me and tears me in his anger, gnashes his teeth at me and my opponent fasts on me his piercing eyes.

They strike my cheek and scorn and unite together.

Verse 10, men open their, yes, okay, misread it, Unite together against me.

God has turned me over to evil men and thrown me into the clutches of the wicked.

All was well with me, but he shattered me.

His archers, again, the arrow, his arrows, his archers surround me without pity.

He pierces my kidneys and spills my gall on the ground." Very colorful language.

Again and again, he bursts upon me, he rushes at me like a warrior.

Series

GYC 2013 Seminar: Lessons from Job for the Great Controversy

02-Part 2: Friends and Foes, Statements and Replies

Transcript

Parent Series

Parent Conference

Sponsor

Recorded

GYC 2013 Seminar: Lessons from Job for the Great Controversy

03-Part 3: Wisdom’s Recluse?

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GYC 2013 Seminar: Lessons from Job for the Great Controversy

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GYC 2013 Seminar: Lessons from Job for the Great Controversy

04-Part 1: Preparing for the Stage and the Story Behind the Curtain

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Great Controversy Bible Study

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Christian Apologetics

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GYC 2013 Seminar: Lessons from Job for the Great Controversy

01-Part 1: Preparing for the Stage and the Story Behind the Curtain

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Guesswork?

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