GYC 2013: Before Men and Angels

<p>Free sharing permitted under the Creative Commons <a rel="license" href="http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc-nd/3.0/us/">BY-NC-ND 3.0 (US)</a> license.</p>

Generation. Youth. Christ. (GYC)

GYC 2013 Seminar: Lessons from Job for the Great Controversy

Michael Younker

01-Part 1: Preparing for the Stage and the Story Behind the Curtain

02-Part 2: Friends and Foes, Statements and Replies

03-Part 3: Wisdom’s Recluse?

04-Part 1: Preparing for the Stage and the Story Behind the Curtain

05-Part 2: Friends and Foes, Statements and Replies

06-Part 3: Wisdom’s Recluse?

This message was presented at the DYC 2013 conference, Before Man and Angels, in Orlando, Florida.

For other resources like this, visit us online at www.dycweb.org.

Again for anyone who may be coming in for the first time, my name is Michael Yonker and I'm a PhD student in theology at Andrews University.

I'm sure some of you are GYC veterans, but I am not.

And so it is my pleasure and privilege to be able to join you for the first time.

Being from Michigan, I have to note that I had to shovel off a foot of snow early in the morning to clear the driveway to be able to get on the plane to come here.

I know a few of you no doubt come from northern climates as well and can understand that, but I like your choice, or whoever chose it, of Orlando this year to kind of get a little bit of a break, a warmer climate.

For those of us that are more than accustomed to the cold weather and the snow, I really enjoy being in a nicer, warmer climate.

So I had closed last time just with the beginning of Job's 3 opening responses to the situation that had befallen him and how he is struggling to put it all together in his mind.

And I had noted that although I think Job comes very close to cursing God right from the beginning, he never does.

And he actually maintains a fairly consistent position throughout his responses to his friends, again, wavering in some cases, and definitely misunderstanding some things.

It's very important to recognize that Job is ignorant of the big picture as we proceed.

And again, I don't think that he is actually wanting to die, as I noted, just he is saying he's ready to die, if that were the case.

Now, I want to pause again and just remark on the question of theodicy again.

I mentioned it at the beginning of the last lecture, but I really want to get it sharp and clear in our minds so that we know what we're actually asking when we try and understand or create or formulate a theodicy.

Someone again, although I mentioned it last time, but someone give me the answer.

It is an understanding of the justice of God in light of, particularly, our suffering, in light of the suffering of the world and those around us.

What kinds of responses, I'm just taking a little bit of a diversion here beyond what I have in the slides, but I think it's important and I didn't put it in, but I think it's important.

Do you know what kinds of responses have been given that are out there and that are very popular right now.

What kinds of popular theodicies are floating around out there to answer these questions?

Okay, Can you name a major position that might think that way?

Have you ever heard of this by the Calvinists?

If you go back and look up the notes on what Calvin wrote, you will find that he does embrace this, that it was God's pleasure, he says, that Adam should fall so that God might be glorified.

When you read it for the first time, and you know, wow, what was going through John Calvin said, because of course many things that Calvin wrote I would agree with, and I'm speaking here very broadly, very loosely.

He wrote many good things, some solid commentaries on various passages of the Bible.

He was fighting against some other bigger problems.

But then he has some zingers like this, you know, it's like, wow, How can you even think that way?

How can you live your life knowing that everything that happens is just God's good pleasure?

That Adam's fall was just perfectly part of God's plan.

So that's kind of 1 view, hard Calvinism as it's called.

Do you know of some other responses out there that are popular, especially in Christianity, but if you are thinking of others you can share them as well.

What are some other popular theodicy or answers to the theodical question?

I don't know if that's a good problem, but pretty much all the gods are the same.

It's kind of like a mall, a toy shop, a mall, a toy shop, a mall.

Deism, if you haven't heard the deistic view of the world, is that basically there is a God.

They don't have a problem acknowledging a divine power, But God basically, you know, like lit a match, you know, and, you know, put it onto reality, and it just burns in whatever way it wants, you know, and God doesn't really, isn't really involved at all.

This is a kind of a popular view, And in some form or another, I think, it has infiltrated certain kinds of Christian thinking, you know, in various ways.

I wouldn't call it a dominant Christian view because it basically is rejecting Christianity, that's the whole point.

But I think that its seeds have infected some Christians, that a little bit of too much live and let live, you know, just a little bit too much free play.

So that's kind of a deistic view, a deistic view that God just kind of lit the match to reality and just the fire and the wind and the smoke blows any way that it wants.

What is another popular view, especially in Christianity right now?

Can you think of another 1 that is an answer to the theodical question?

Have you heard of authors like Gregory Boyd?

No, okay, not quite in the theologians reading circles.

He's a fairly popular evangelical theologian.

You know what the word evangelical means.

Basically that means a higher view of scripture, that very loosely translated, it just means a higher view of scripture because there are very low view of scripture Christians.

But Greg Boyd does take the Bible seriously and he tries to make sense of it.

And he advocates something called the open view, the open view of God.

I'm kind of curious what you folks may have heard of.

If you've heard of the open view of God, I know that surely some of you have.

Okay, then I'll share what it is because it is very popular in scholarly theologian circles.

The Open View of God, as Gregory Boyd has shared, and he actually has written several books on what he calls warfare theodicy, And it presents a picture that is in some ways, in fact, a dissertation was written at Andrews University comparing Gregory Boyd's view and Ellen White's view.

And basically, the open view of God is a very attractive option, even though I believe that it's incorrect.

I think it's very hard in essence is false, but it basically implies that God is doing everything that He can, that God is limited in some ways, that God, a key point of contention in it, a very sore point of contention, is that God does not know the future.

God does not know the future in the open view of God.

So that's why it's open, so the future is open to him.

He does not have divine foreknowledge, which scripture seems to imply.

And yet, in fact, that's something that isn't really very present in Job, but I'm really into these issues.

And so, and since they're infecting a lot of pastors and other folks that you might be listening to, or your friends might be listening to, the people you're trying to reach might be listening to, I will go ahead and share a little bit about them.

But the open view of God is that God does not really know the future, so He is actively involved in the present, and He tries to work with us and the world as He can, But he's limited.

And whenever you see in Scripture, and this is again 1 of the key points of contention, whenever you see in Scripture what would be called prophecies, you're probably well aware that Seventh-day Adventism has a very heavy emphasis on prophecy.

So that for the open view of God, they want to reinterpret all prophecies to be conditional.

All prophecies, because we know, and that is again something that Adventists recognize, that Not all prophecies that were given in Scripture, when they were given, were unconditional.

Sometimes God did let people know that if you do this, then this will happen.

So the open theists are right to identify the existence of conditional prophecies, that God relates to reality and to humans in a conditional way.

The Old Testament is replete with these examples, it's full of them.

Series

GYC 2013 Seminar: Lessons from Job for the Great Controversy

02-Part 2: Friends and Foes, Statements and Replies

Transcript

Parent Series

Parent Conference

Sponsor

Recorded

GYC 2013 Seminar: Lessons from Job for the Great Controversy

03-Part 3: Wisdom’s Recluse?

57m

GYC 2013 Seminar: Lessons from Job for the Great Controversy

06-Part 3: Wisdom’s Recluse?

59m

Reasons for Hope: The Case for Faith in a Secular Age

Reasons for Hope: The Case for Faith in a Secular Age - Part 4

1h 12m

GYC 2013 Seminar: The Neophyte and the Great Controversy

01-The Mystery

40m

GYC 2013 Seminar: Lessons from Job for the Great Controversy

04-Part 1: Preparing for the Stage and the Story Behind the Curtain

1h

GYC 2013 Seminar: The Most Important Book Outside of the Bible - A Deeper Look at The Great Controversy

03-Adventism’s Prophetic Message in the Great Controversy

1h

GYC 2013 Seminar: Lessons from Job for the Great Controversy

01-Part 1: Preparing for the Stage and the Story Behind the Curtain

41m

GYC 2012 Seminar: The Calling - Living and Knowing God's Will For Me

Guesswork?

1h

True Education

Communion with God in Nature

1h 1m

Talking Points 4th Quarter 2022: On Death, Dying, and the Future Hope

13 The Judging Process

31m

Theodicy

Job & His “Friends” Pt. 2

55m

Young Professionals

Purpose Discovery

1h 8m

Sound Doctrine