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Secrets Unsealed

Women's Ordination Symposium

Stephen Bohr

1- Are You Sure? Issues and Answers

Well we want to welcome everyone to the Secrets Unsealed production studio.

We're glad to see you here today and we have a lot of material to cover, not only tonight but also the next 3 days that we're going to spend together.

I trust and hope that it's going to be very, very productive for each 1 of us individually and also for the Seventh Day Adventist Church on a global scale.

I not only want to welcome everyone who is here in the studio, but I also want to welcome everyone who is watching the live streaming and everyone who will watch these presentations on YouTube as well as later on on television broadcast.

I believe that the first thing that we should do before anything else is to ask the Lord's presence and so I invite you to bow your heads with me reverently as we ask for the Lord's blessing.

Father in heaven we come before you this evening thanking you for the privilege of being here.

We realize that these are very, very important times for your church, many, many important decisions need to be made.

We just ask Father that you will help us to understand that the best decisions that can be made will always be based upon the foundation of your holy Word.

So we ask that you will be with us, be with all of those who are watching this on television, are watching on YouTube, and in live streaming.

We ask Lord that it will be a blessing and we ask for your presence in the precious name of Jesus we pray, Amen.

Why has Secrets Unsealed decided to invest a considerable amount of financial resources as well as time to organize and to present this symposium?

There are basically 3 reasons why our ministry has decided to do this symposium at this time.

First of all, Secrets Unsealed is a supporting ministry of the Seventh-day Adventist Church and we feel like we need to do all in our power to uphold the decisions that have been made by the world church, by the Seventh-day Adventist World Church.

Twice the World Church decided in 1990 and 1995 not to approve the ordination of women to pastoral ministry or pastoral leadership, and so at secrets unsealed we believe that we should do everything in our power to uphold the decisions that have been made by the world church.

Secondly we believe that the issues that were discussed at the Theology of Ordination study committee should become public knowledge.

We rather doubt that very many people out there are going to sit in the pews and read the voluminous and technical theological treatises that were presented at Tusk.

This would take hours and hours of arduous and difficult reading, so what we've decided is to present what was given at Tusk in a simple and easy to understand way so that everyone who is watching is able to understand the presentations that were made at the Theology of Ordination Study Committee.

In the third place, it has been virtually impossible for us to gain a communication outlet where we can share our strongly held view that although we support women in ministry at the same time we are opposed to the ordination of women to pastoral leadership.

The channels of communication of the denomination especially in North America have been used to support only 1 side of the issue and are closed to any other view, and so this has made it necessary for several supporting ministries of the church such as Secrets Unsealed to use their means of communication to share the other side of the equation.

Now the question might come up, Doesn't a symposium like this risk the possibility of polarization that creates disunity in the church?

I would be the first to admit that this is a possibility, but it is not the intent of those who are speaking at this symposium to cause disunity in the church.

We firmly believe in the unity of the church, but we believe that the unity of the church must be based upon faithfulness to the Holy Scriptures.

We cannot just make up our minds that we're going to get along and we're going to agree to disagree.

We believe that this issue is of such monumental importance to the church, especially its unity and its mission as well as the method of interpreting Scripture that we must bring this to the fore for everyone to understand.

Now those who do not support the ordination of women to pastoral leadership have often been perceived and portrayed as the party of no, but we would rather be portrayed as the party of yes.

Do we believe that women and men are of equal value, status, and dignity?

Do we believe that the church, the Seventh-day Adventist church as a church has failed to use women in the church to their fullest potential?

Do we believe that there are some functions in the church that women can fulfill better than men?

Do we believe that women can preach and teach?

Do we believe that God has a very special place for women in ministry?

But do we believe that women should be ordained as local elders or to pastoral leadership?

From the beginning of time God says yes and then sometimes qualifies it with a no.

Yes, you can eat from all of the trees in the garden, but no, you cannot eat from this specific 1.

Is God a member of the party of no, because he forbade Adam and Eve from eating of 1 tree?

Is God a member of the party of no, because He allows women to occupy virtually every position that is open in the church except that of elder or pastor?

I don't believe that we can say that God is a member of the party of no, God is a member of the party of yes.

Now the purpose of a keynote address is to set the tone for the entire discussion that's going to take place in the next 3 days.

I will therefore bring several issues to the fore and then offer a few brief remarks about each 1.

The speakers that will be with us in the next 3 days will then along with the panel discussions deal with many of the things that I'm going to bring up much more extensively and exhaustively.

I would like to begin my remarks with a wise quotation from the pen of Ellen White in the book Councils to Writers and Editors page 40.

It is important that in defending the doctrines which we consider fundamental articles of faith, we should never allow ourselves to employ arguments that are not wholly sound.

These may avail to silence an opposer, but they do not honor the truth.

We should present sound arguments that will not only silence our opponents, but will bear the closest and most searching scrutiny.

So in this symposium we are going to do our utmost to present biblical material, biblical answers to questions.

We are going to provide answers that have been looked at from many different angles, and we trust that what we present will be seen not only as logical but as biblical in its foundation.

Now I'm going to share with you several of the issues that are involved in the discussion on women's ordination, and then as I mentioned I'm going to provide a very brief response to these.

Now I have several of them, actually I have 40, and you're saying are you ever going to be able to finish?

Well I'm hoping that I will be able to finish, but these are what I believe the most significant issues regarding the matter of the ordination of women.

The first that I would like to mention is that some state that the Bible neither approves nor forbids the ordination of women.

Now this might be technically true, but as you examine scriptures you find constantly a male pattern of leadership that has been established by God.

I want to share with you all of those indications in scripture of male leadership according to God's plan.

I believe that John Peters will show that Adam was given the leadership role at creation.

After sin the firstborn males were the spiritual leaders of each household.

When God established Israel He chose 12 males as the founders of the tribes.

The regional leaders that were established in the days of Moses which were the thousands, the hundreds, the fifties, and the tens were all male.

The 70 elders that were chosen by Moses which was kind of like a general conference executive committee of that time was all composed of males.

All of the priests of the Old Testament were males, all of the Levites which would be equivalent I believe to the deacons today, they took care of the temple and the offerings and cleaning up and so on which is the role of the deacons today, all of them were males.

Of the 42 kings in the history of Israel and Judah all of them were males with the exception of Athaliah who was a usurper, the 12 apostles that Jesus established were all males, the 70 that Jesus sent out were all males.

The successor of Judas was chosen from 2 males that had been chosen from a larger pool of males.

The apostles and elders who were delegates at the Jerusalem Council were all males.

Paul's criteria was that those who are leaders in the church, the elders and the bishops, must be the husbands of 1 wife.

And then you have of course Timothy and Titus that were ordained as elders, both males.

There is not a single case in all of Scripture where a woman was ordained as an elder or as a pastor of a church.

And so as you look at the preponderance of the evidence in Scripture it becomes very clear that God's pattern of leadership is males.

Ellen White has warned us about the dangers of doing things that are not strictly forbidden in Scripture.

I read from the book Great Controversy page 289 where Ellen White explains about the Roman Catholic Church.

Rome began by enjoining what God had not forbidden, and she ended by forbidding what He had explicitly enjoined.

The argument that the Bible permits that which it does not forbid sends us down a very dangerous slippery slope.

The historical evidence indicates that the early church began celebrating sunrise services in commemoration of the resurrection of Christ.

At first they did it on a yearly basis and then they started doing it on a weekly basis.

Now I have found no clear biblical evidence that would say that this is all right or that this is forbidden, And yet in a very short period of time what happened was that the church enjoined the celebration of sunrise services in honor of the resurrection and came to forbid the observance of the Holy Sabbath.

Just because the Bible does not forbid something does not mean that it's right.

The Bible does not forbid women's ordination explicitly, but its unanimous testimony is that the practice is reserved for qualified men.

There is not even 1 example in all of the Bible of a woman who was ever ordained to any office.

Another argument that is used is that Huldah was a leader in Israel and therefore we should have women leaders in the church today.

Now the important thing is that Huldah did provide guidance to the king, the king by the way was Josiah.

Now the king decided whether he would follow her counsel or not.

You see Huldah was not the leader, she was a counselor of the leader.

Huldah provided guidance to the king, but the king decided whether he would follow her advice or not.

The important thing to remember here is that Huldah did not take over the reins of leadership in Judah, she did not take over the throne or the priesthood to clean up the apostasy.

She was merely the messenger that God chose to encourage Josiah to lead out in the needed reformation in the kingdom of Judah.

Huldah did not clean up the mess, It was Josiah, the elders, and the priests as the leaders of Judah who took her counsel to heart and let out in the necessary changes.

It was the king who ordered the elders of Judah and Jerusalem.

The priests, the prophets, and all of the people came out because the king told them to come out to renew the covenant.

It was the king who then commanded Hilkiah to clean up the temple and the land from the paraphernalia that had been used in the pagan cultus, and it was the king who commanded the unfaithful priests to be slain, and it was the king who was extolled by the Lord for being a faithful leader.

You can read the story, the center of the story is the king, the king is pulling all of the strings as the leader, but Huldah is helping in the sense that she's providing counsel as to how the leader should proceed.

In this sense Huldah is very similar to a prophet that existed recently which is Ellen White.

Another argument that is used in favor of women's ordination is the idea that because Deborah was a judge in Israel that women should be allowed to serve as pastors and elders in the church today.

There are several factors that we need to take into mind when we talk about Deborah.

First of all, Deborah served in a very chaotic period of Israel history.

The system of judges was not God's organizational ideal.

Laurel Damsteegt

2- The Impact of Spiritualism on Feminism and Gender Issues Today

I would like to share with you some of the things I have learned over the years.

The impact of spiritualism on feminism and gender issues today.

Oh Father, we come to you as empty vessels, willing and wanting to be filled, and more than filled, we want to be used.

So this morning, as we discuss your great controversy, we ask that all the holy angels crowd in here and beat back the evil angels, And we ask that you will please be with us in Jesus name.

By way of introduction, I was born and reared in Bangkok, Thailand.

My parents are doctors And they were missionaries in Bangkok, Thailand.

And so that's where I was born and that was where I was reared.

I had so much fun as a child growing up, but I found out that I love doing God's work.

And as a child, we would go out to all these various places and do all these wonderful things and I just loved that.

And I determined very early on that I really wanted to share God's word and to be a missionary.

That meant that I loved God and his word.

And every Christmas or any birthday, people would ask me, well, what do you want for your birthday?

And I'd say, oh, I want messages to young people.

Or I want first volume of the Selected Messages.

Or I'd want whatever book of the Spirit of Prophecy collection I was up to, because I loved to study, even as a kid.

And so it was natural for me to go on to get a BA in Theology at AUC, and then an MDiv at Andrews, and then an MSPH at Loma Linda, because I believe in the health work too.

And so we just really enjoyed sharing through the years.

Now my husband, I did marry my husband after my Andrews years.

He was ordained, but at my husband's ordination, I declined ordination, even as a local elder.

And that is because of some of the things I learned at the seminary.

I wish to serve the Lord, but there were 3 papers that I did at the seminary that have shaped my ministry and my whole philosophy.

And I am going to be sharing 1 of them with you this morning.

First Testimonies 421 has a very interesting statement, but it greatly puzzled me.

Those who feel called out to join the movement in favor of women's rights and the so-called dress reform movement, might as well sever all connection with the third angel's message.

That was very strong because it linked, number 1, women's rights with severing connection with the third angel's message.

And I thought, what in the world in the women's rights movement was so objectionable?

The spirit which attends the 1 cannot be in harmony with the other.

The scriptures are plain, notice that, plain upon the relations and rights of men and women.

Okay, notice that the spirit is plain and it's not something that should be difficult for us.

Spiritualists have, to quite an extent, adopted the singular mode of dress, and so it's in the context of the dress.

Seventh-day Adventists who believe in the restoration of the gifts are often branded as spiritualists.

Let them adopt this costume and their influence is dead.

So here we have women's rights being connected to spiritualism.

And so in my study, now remember, this is before CD-ROMs, before internet, before all those things, because I'm an old lady.

We had to find out what was going on in the spirit of prophecy when she was talking about the women's rights and spiritualism being connected.

And So day after day, I would sit down in the White Estate there and I'd go through all the Review and Heralds.

I'd find every article having to do with women and I would write them all down on these yellow sheets.

And then I'd go and I'd study and I'd study.

Number 1, scriptures are plain on the relations and rights of men and women.

And that's what the rest of this seminar is talking about, is how the scriptures are playing on these things.

Number 2, women's rights and the third angel's messages are incompatible.

But somehow there's a connection between women's rights and spiritualism.

How was women's rights a forerunner of feminism related to spiritualism?

I want to go back and I want to study a little bit about spiritualism.

I have categorized spiritualism as type 1 and type 2.

I'm going to explain exactly what I mean by type 1 spiritualism and type 2 spiritualism.

Spiritualism all started in the garden right here on earth.

And Eve ventured away from her husband and ended up at the tree that she was forbidden to be at.

And right then, in Genesis 3, 4, we have Satan's first lie.

And what this means is if the dead are not dead, the devil can directly communicate with people here on earth through rapings, through seances, through appearances, through levitations, all kinds of manners.

But in Deuteronomy 18, 9 to 14, we find that God very specifically calls it an abomination.

All these kinds of things are an abomination and we should not have anything to do with it as God's people.

But there is a part 2 spiritualism, a type 2 spiritualism and that has to do with Satan's second lie.

Genesis 3, 5, Satan says, ye shall be as gods.

Tree of knowledge of good and evil was forbidden wisdom.

It was woman versus God, her judgment against God's judgment.

Woman overrides God's judgment and goes ahead and does it anyway.

So she believes the serpent over God, she becomes the norm, and she ultimately becomes God.

Great Controversy talks about both these kinds of spiritualism and Great Controversy on page 554 says, and this is talking about philosophical spiritualism now, We are all gods.

And let me unpack that just a little bit.

Spiritualism teaches that man is a creature of progression.

That it is his destiny from his birth to progress even to eternity toward the Godhead.

My fellow man, we're all were unfallen demigods.

And another declares any just and perfect being is Christ.

Another aspect of philosophical spiritualism is that anything is okay.

He declares through the spirits that true knowledge places man above all law, that whatever is is right, that God does not condemn and that all sins which are committed are innocent.

This is what the old book meant when it was saying, I'm okay, you're okay, okay?

You do anything you want, but it's okay, no problem.

You may be all messed up, but nevermind, it's okay.

You believe the way you want, I believe the way I want, and everybody is fine, and this is a great, great problem because this is philosophical spiritualism.

Love makes immoral acts between consulting adults okay.

Alright, there's another aspect here of philosophical spiritualism, type 2.

Ellen White again in Great Controversy 557 says, "'It is true that spiritualism is assuming "'a Christian guise.

Mario Veloso

3- From Mohaven to TOSC; How We Got Here

It is a real pleasure to participate in this symposium.

We are talking about a subject which is very sensitive at this time, and it would be sensitive at any time.

The first time when the church began to talk about it was in 1881.

We don't say much about that occasion because there is not much to say.

It just came in, It was discussed at the session, a general conference session, and then it was taken to the administrative committee of the general conference through a small committee, and that issue never came back again.

The real history of This matter in the church came late in the last century.

I mean, in the middle to the end of the last century.

And we are talking about Mohaven, but Mohaven was in 1973.

The meeting in Mohaven was caused by a question that came to the general conference from Europe.

From 1 of the northern countries of Europe came a question, And that was, could we ordain women?

Is there in the Bible and the spirit of prophecy anything that would prevent us from ordaining women.

So the general conference appointed a committee of 3, 3 scholars.

And let me tell you, scholars have been always involved.

They gave a unanimous report and the report was very simple and straight.

There is no base in the Bible, neither in the spirit of prophecy, which are the 2 most authoritative sources for all Adventists in the world, of ordaining women to the Gospel ministry.

There is no authorization at all in either 1 of the 2 sources.

I think that was the nicest report that the Church ever got on the subject.

At that point, it should have been closed.

And it should have been said, this is what we find in the Bible, in the spirit of prophecy.

Therefore, no need to get into anything related to the subject anymore.

Whenever human beings ask a question pretending to get the answer they have in mind, they never get any other answer.

If they get it, then they begin to create new questions, actually many questions.

Because the General conference, listening to these people, appointed a committee in 1973.

That was the beginning of the discussion.

It was called the Committee on the Role of Women in the Church.

The question was on ordination of women, and that was already answered.

So to call a committee about ordination of women was very awkward.

And in this diplomacy of the higher levels, that would not be proper.

Series

Women's Ordination Symposium

Town Hall Meeting

Transcript

Parent Series

Sponsor

Recorded

Parts

1- Are You Sure? Issues and Answers

1h 51m

2- The Impact of Spiritualism on Feminism and Gender Issues Today

57m

3- From Mohaven to TOSC; How We Got Here

57m

4- Male Headship in the Old Testament

57m

6- The Holy Kiss, Consumption of Alcohol, the Use of the Veil, and Personal Adornment

57m

7- Straw Man Arguments in Favor of Women’s Ordination

56m

8- The Present Relevance of 1 Timothy

1h 53m

9- The Third Option: A Way Forward or a Step Backwards?

58m

11- Regional Ordination: A Path to Congregationalism?

58m

12- Reply to NAD and Other Pro-Women’s Ordination Arguments

1h

13- Women’s Ordination and the Jerusalem Council

58m

14- The Present Relevance of 1 Timothy

1h 53m

15- Ellen White’s View of Women In Ministry

57m

16- Male and Female Created He Them

57m

17- My Story and the Hermeneutical Question

1h

19- The Priesthood of All Believers

57m

Town Hall Meeting

1h 56m

Sound Doctrine