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6. The Final Generation (Panel Discussion)

Andy Im


Andy Im

Associate Director for the Dept of Public Campus Ministries in the Michigan Conference. Director of the Institute of Adventist Apologetics for C.A.M.P.U.S. 



  • January 2, 2016
    3:15 PM
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This message was presented at the Jew I see twenty fifteen conference. Told. Chosen in Louisville Kentucky. For other resources like this visit us online at W W W G Y C web. Heavenly Father. We thank you so much for the Sabbath the day we can calm and break open the Word of God The Spirit of Prophecy and have a discussion on vital clues that are very important to this church this movement. We don't want to pray in a special way that your Holy Spirit would immerse our hearts on our. And our minds of those of us will be sharing. Today. And also be with the hearts and minds of those who are listening. And we just pray that all family your spirit of love. And you wisdom will be present this afternoon and we thank you Lord. We asked this. In the name of genes us. A man. All right let's go ahead and start. And cut to the chase. I'm going to go to introduce our panelists I really don't need to do that some going to do it very briefly Adam ran then on the far left there is youth ministries director for the north in Clinton conference also director of Peace. Center of evangelism in England. Chester heart is a pastor in Dalton Georgia. Also as served as a assigned vice president. Also as Executive Committee of the G.C.. He's certainly no stranger to Jew why scenes been a board member since the very inception of Jew Y.C.. We also have seen who doco one of the Gregers of campus and the speaker. Actually Y.C.. And no stranger to do I see. And of course last but not least by gives in co-director of light beer. Errors and pastor of story line. Administration. You've probably seen them on three A.B.N. as well website. Needed to have gone down there. And so I just want to go ahead and start off by stating this that please no comments or remark from the audience this is being recorded. We want to ask that you be respectful and courteous. As we have our dialogue. Up here. Together. I also want to say that the statement then discussion points of the panelists. Do not reflect the views of G A Y C So there is a disclaimer here. In any official capacity. So with that said. The final generation also known as the last generation theology. It's been a heated controversy or subject of heated controversy over fifty years. The alone pastors and popular speakers and local churches have debated this. Over those years and really the subject matter is too big for us to conquer in a one hour setting. And we're really going to be hitting. Many of the highlights. I want to also share. Introduce the subject with several quotes from feel logins and church leaders to get the discussion going. And get the framework. On the Go. So this is in an article in two thousand and seven. Farm. From would roll with then we have to identify identifiable theological traditions or paradigms of moderately conservative president truth and been tism. These two traditions have developed to essentially distinctive versions of soteriology which have to do with the study of salvation. Christology I.E. the nature of Christ and S. eschatology or the study of end time events within the Seventh Day Adventist Church. On hell Rodriguez the former director of the Biblical research institute in both thirteen. Stated and I quote. And he summarizing the issues. So. Quote The theology of the last generation. Was developed and popularized in the avenue spurred by M.L. Andrea's an end Reus and was building on insights from eighty Jones and. E.J. Wagner. This young Let me introduce a strong element of legalism. In some sectors of the church by claiming that the character of God. Maligned by Satan in the cosmic conflict will be vindicated. Through the holy and perfect life of obedience to the last generation of the leavers. This generation will reach a level of character development and equaled in Christian history. Copying perfectly in their lines what God did in Christ. Once this happens. The Lord will return. This. Yalit he seeks to explain why the Lord has not returned. And the nature and purpose of Christian perfection. It is based primarily on me particularly reading of the writings of. Ellen G.. Why. I want to point your attention to several items. She wants she is no stranger to the notion of the final generation. Into in zero fourteen. Eugene Pruitt a friend of mine. Spoke on. In O.T. well. High Gibson. Spoke on it also professor. Need Miller. Spoke on it in O.T. Well some Jew Y.C. supporters are prominent leaders of the last generation Jala JI movement defending Jew Y.C. and L G T on message boards of various publications of the church. The converse I would like to add is also true that many who do not do it here to last generation theology. Also attend and support. G Y C. So this is the percept ship and I'm going to quote an article in spectrum. Entitled viewpoint before men in angels and. I'll go ahead and read it now. One of my interests the author stage in coming to this meeting was to witness firsthand reports that Jew Y.C. advocates. The last generation theology in perfectionism. This should have been apparent not only from the conferences thing. But from the name of some of the speakers in years past and I want to be fair this is my own words here. Many speakers who do not in here to L.T.C. are also invited speakers of G.Y. see the article goes on to say that you want to see subscribes to L G T. Should have been clear to anyone who wants the promo video for the Orlando. Conference. The senior pastor of a large admin his congregation was outraged by the video. The idea that God needs to be vindicated by us. Is pure blasphemy. Moving forward. I think it is rather unfortunate he concludes that our young people are getting a heaping dose of perfectionism. And Jean wind see conferences which will later come to haunt them spiritually and emotionally. As it did me in my younger years. No easy questions. This afternoon Chester. What is your reaction first of all to some of the statements made there in Oregon men can certainly be made that to Y.C. is supportive of the spin aeration P.R. logy. It's assumed by many that L.G. T.V. official at the very least an official position of G Y C. Does G Y C have an official formal position regarding L G T. And any formal kind in relationship with its main proponent and by the way I'm glad I'm not being asked that question. Yes those questions and be very yak. And it will be very close to say this I hope it didn't hear. Leaders at least. And I'll leave this looking tilt and. I think you saw the list of speakers that half their US are more mad. It was called and here is just as well why any of the of bloody used to live on it is very clear in all of the that he does comes. Which means that when we did write all that he is going to do successful over the last eight years to come up here to your Friday. Do you want to see the tough hard to find the all the or feel after his initial that are not. Understood. Excepted but if you really learn that our spirit you must be nice if you call it how do you clarify or to green and the little Each church and. So this is well. This is where we have a store the data as a few ways to work at the station. We believe that you want to see the snark and into existence and just just our history. For the first feel awful things. We believe that we don't believe that he was easier if you try to take place it will be your worst in some way. You know. Be able to spell out the cities that are believe our understand what you West Coast. Is to be driven low voice you know people to take the little girls that were so I'm speaking with a curse. Right now but I personally will with the undersea reading. Yes just me. Very And even if I could really hear every word of what the last three years I would advocate. The finding actually do theology in the south is it. Let's teach or it is not a little spotty right. But I also understand this right here when I read. I I do not I do not believe that you like stands for what they are here. Right. I stand for. OK let me say this. I do not believe that you are the generation of people who look at her replevy have all of the character. As it is manifested in rights. I also love the we are going to do what it is our responsibility to focus on benefiting the character. I do hear it let it be that Indians Lestrange. But God that there is more than just a man. When we start to see herself. Leak. Start elevating our will be great and I found out I was a person. There are certain. This is a certain sort of that. And one of these of the round of this. Now I praise God it up as our change hearts. You need to man. I don't like three hundred were wounded. More for we needed to yourself off line. Really that close to something. I really you know result of those rivers was that Christ. And sometimes we can we get along. Focus and actually get At first he never will be and so I'm very comfortable with the way those authors treated. Our positions. I'm also very very a little bit. Maybe British. They are coming from the T.V.. This user. And I think that's why you have stated and deserve it is there. No it's not it's coming up. Yes The then you want any of that are any of the other panelist want to chime in one statement that's made there is the. The notion that humans can vindicate God's character is a Queda to to blast the ME to blast the meat. And I just want to throw that out there doesn't want to talk about that or mention anything to that effect. I'll take a stab at what's happening in that language that the idea of in the character. Guy is pure blast. It is is what we eat as seven families in general would regard as at least face softened arm. Of telling us. And what I mean by that if you could just pull up a sheet of paper in your magination draw a line down the middle. In the left column. Kalpas Calvinism. Hello. I J sent to in contrast to Armenian itself. Seven They had us we are of a feel logical branch of the Eat and process that is our media and knock out. That's now on the sheet of paper in your imagination just moved down in order to achieve a level of clarity. Calvinism is a form of determinism. Predetermines. Everything that's going to happen in the ministry including who's going to be said it was going to be lost by contrast are many years on is free will be dissolved. Rather than deterministic the as of yet believes in the dynamic of free will go down the columns further. Calvinism heals from Greek philosophy orientation or as Armenian As for your role he does some heals from Hebrew way of processing what I mean by that is simply that it in cowardness on reality is static. It doesn't move. God was created from and everything that's going to happen. This is where you get the notion of and destiny and ideas like that everything that happens. Has a reason God is in control in some kind of micro-managing signs. Versus on the be a logical wonder weakness of your happiness come across. We don't believe that we have the a stag and micromanaged and controlled. In that sense. We believe that reality is dynamic and relational. And in that sense. We believe because character is primarily actuated by love which gives free of our which have rest. I've given being can actually impact. God's reality. Hence the in some day adventists thinking. Watched us. We believe. If we follow our theological lynage through to its conclusion. We believe that it is possible for human beings to either. He son or delay. The second coming. Because human beings. Impact. Divine reality. Because God is not like your psyche in micromanaging you control over all of their And everything is not pre-determined on the other side in the home planet call. What's happening over here. Giving rise to that kind of statement is that it's blasphemy that human beings could contribute anything to the exoneration. Vindication glorification couldn't contribute anything to God's reality. Because God. Years. Transcending anything that human beings might do to impact either him or the flow of history. We are some of the others are not cowards who are many areas where free will vs. We believe in God love freedom risk a wave of reality. As a result. We believe as of today I mean is that human beings what we do as a church and as individuals can make Guy Happy or sad. Can cause God to feel things. Can actually bring on or push logical. Buttons the brain on the second coming or say no to Jesus and delay the things. So vindication which I think going to talk about in greater detail later. Vindication is not a concept and something Atlas of the ology the past. Do with salvation. It has to do with Mischa. Seventy happens do not believe that the final generation will be saved by any other means any different means than people have been saved. Asked Mr. Salvation is by grace through faith alone. In price. Period of suffering but then we understand. In this line. Because se is migration to Christ. The fact is been human beings. Intersect with that grace and you pact got and human history. Through the way they live which. In fact can and does impact God's reality. So that's that's the shortest you. You add it I know it he and I do appreciate that I wouldn't call that short but I got without it there and I guess what you're for sure that if then than. And I do appreciate what them that help or that of the Balfour is a lesson. Let's take a look at the feel of the ology. So a few of the considerations not all the claims made by the pro will to eat. By the way does not Elegy be key it's the last generation of Gallagher proponents right. Not all the claims made by the pro by pro L.D.P. proponents of are debated. We we've assumed that here. Many point I can tell you a story about that but anyway. Many. There are many broad points of consensus. Today we're going to focus on the points of most interest within the church now time. I was going back to you and not all the questions of course are directed toward you but you've spoken in the past on the final generation. Many on this panel have preach us as Chester as mentioned. And as we've seen. But I'm sure not everyone believes in blink at the same way. Right there are differences. Can you characterize what some of those differences might be and where in your opinion do some veer off. What maybe some of the pitfalls. Well and I mentioned. That. It's a miss ya logic old concept. Not a selfish in all concepts so that would be where we need to exercise a great deal of care that. When we talk about the final generation that we don't either. Over the preach or even Levy emotional. Impression on people that their salvation is now dependent on achieving a level of perfection. That previous generations have not achieved so that would be one nuance that. That I think is vital to make. But in the in the larger sense. For example to use an illustration to make this simple. And you have a face. You have yours. You are not your years. You have and knows you are not your nose. Your my brows you are not your eyebrows. There is the composite. If I were to take a close up picture of your eyebrow. Filling the whole frame with your eyebrows and it's my wife and say this my friend handed me. It would be true and it would be false but we must be false. So the composite matters. The picture matters. Heresy is often born of emphasize even one aspect or dimension of truth to the exclusion or minimizing of another. So for example when we read that our Prophet has said to us. And this is this it is probably in the category of the most in fact statement she ever made. About anything she's never uses language about anything except for that. She says and I quote of. There is not a point that needs to be dwelt upon worker innocently. Repeated more frequently. For us doubtless more firmly in the minds of all than the new possibility of fallen men. Merits of the unique name by his own best good works. Salvation is your fit in Jesus Christ alone and of caught. So. So with that you facilis with that solid core. If we understand that salvation is by grace through faith alone in cries and then we build our composite around that solid reality. That is uncompromising our thinking then we're going to communicate in such a way that whatever whatever it is we're saying about the final generation. Produces what Ellen White calls. Rest in His love rather than anxiety. As to whether or not we shall be saved. I'm quoting now from step to press pay seven you want a wife says that if the final impact of a theology. On be on the congregation to my prediction. If the final impact is to produce quote unquote anxiety. As to whether or not I'm going to make. That's false the ology that is not the gospel. She says on the other hand. That the true Gospel produces a sense of grassed in his one of seven people basically. Seventh Day Adventists are Sabbath keepers not just because they keep the right day. But because they have grass in Christ for salvation. So that the composite picture your not your eyebrows. We need to build a picture. That leaves people in the right place. Spiritually and emotionally and doesn't leave them in the wrong place where they either move toward a kind of you know self righteous fair season. Or on the other hand. Just get discouraged and give up in despair. There's something else besides despair or self righteousness and security in Christ that bears fruit in his glory. So let's go ahead and move for work. The proposition so L. G.P. teaches that God is waiting for his people to attain perfectly simplest lines. Some would VERY have been very nuanced way of looking at it in terms of this all command quality and quantity which will ultimately vindicate the character of God Now one says perfection and vindication or achieve that will be the impetus for G.'s us to return. I want to read the statement that's most often using Christ uptick lessons. Page sixty nine when the fruit is brought for immediately put it in the sickle because the harvest has come price dissuading with longing desire for the manifestation of himself in his church. When the character of price shall be perfectly reproduced in his people. Then he will come to claim them as his own. It is the privilege of every Christian not only to look for. But to hasten the coming of our more Jesus Christ. We're all who profess his name bearing fruit to His glory. How quickly the whole world would be sown with the seed of the gospel. Quickly the last grain harvest would be ripened and cranks would come to gather the precious grain. Now Adam. The VIN. With that that quote in mind. The most popular court that is used in this discussion. The vindicating of God's character in a lot depending upon the remnant living perfectly similar slide at the end of time. Are you feeling that. And it is the central to Adventism. Everybody with you that you want me to read the question again. We're in the real world. I want to let you go of her and yet. I believe it was there through of you know that already know where I live out their office and almost all of this is another. I hope you're right there. Yes. There's a difference. You know with all of them you tell me a little bit of meat sometimes. I want to look from the outside for one of those I think because it really is not all that we saw rendering it might be and it. Oh yes. That's a pretty good answer that is that's a very good answer and I like that and I want to and I know some others may want to chime in I want to add the second component to this question is directed at faster is it necessary that God's people. Attain a level of perfection not seem in previous generations. In order for Jesus to return so that's the. So we can kind of. Now just kind of discuss these concepts and move forward with that so let's go and start with you just are you like me rephrase that question I was very little will take the load. When you do you say. What did you I mean did it really all of us on the results of the love that he got here was the pain of fashion. And what that does it take. If you can very scourge. Because this is what happens at least. I think the closer we become the Christ. The more victories you know here. I think the way I read the spirit. It seems to need it. Even those who are going to give trouble all related to how they are going to be able to say. And if you have this idea that I do appreciate what you write. Perfect. I did he do this or that he's come. And it's my responsibility. I'm afraid. Some of us. He's. Might my uniform. Action is started while I ride. There's a hat or the mesa then become discouraged because we still don't I mean I do believe exactly what it says it will do a lot of that there's going to be another really about fourteen. All of the land where the move was the originator forwarded that here. I believe that no guy was going to be there and I'll tell you all the talking for years and that much perfect for him right. I believe that God is going to have a group of people prepared by really easy to miss this. Which is the mission that pair of People Are you ready and maybe I do the little evil Whence do exist here are the chances that you are those who keep him at his I believe all those. But I believe that a lot of it and it's really close to you live as though just current professions are so that you will be in the next war in the OF GOD put the right chord at the right place and that's not my fault. It is coming and you'll have to wait for that that's going to be the anticipation that we're all looking for any clue that it did now this quote here. I don't know if this is the water. Obedience or this. So B.D.'s. This is Speaking of the end of time is a question to be decided by the whole world. All will be called to choose between the law of God and the laws of men here. The dividing line will be drawn there will be but two classes. Every character will be fully developed and always show. Whether they have chosen the side of Moyle Peor that rebellion. Then act. The end will come. God will vindicate is law and deliver his people. You know the truth. That period. Makes a big difference. He is a man. Adam did you have something. Go ahead time or. Tycho head in and the first thing I just I think the main thing that's that's come out for me is it's about focus likely to focus is where the focus becomes on knee which already means that. I'm not developing the character of Christ because crisis never sell focused. So the focus becomes. I need to do this I need to be holy I need to get it out of or. If the focus is focusing on Jesus. And something that I noticed. It was a previous quote that Tessa was commenting on. First about when the character of God is perfectly reparative reproduce and his people. Sometime notice in their quote. It's not it's talking about a corporate experience is talking about the character of God. Perfectly reproduced in his people in the church. Like when the church is manifesting this. The Gospel goes out with power the earth is light and with the glory of God. So there is auto already. An added to that is inwardly focused. To the exclusion of all well you know the church is all messed up but I'm going to be holy already missing the point. God wants a people. So in in the next. I guess experience. On the experience side. As I'm thinking the the moment were thinking of this. In an individual list Dick. Way. We've already missed the boat. God wants to to pull the people at my last my last part of my comment is in a fusion chapter four. When God gives gifts to the church. Some apostles and prophets when he gives gifts to the churches for the perfecting of the saints. He wants to perfect the people until they come to the full measure of the stature of Christ. It's not just me but God wants to give every individual the gift their contributions to the Body of Christ. Becoming like Christ is them a sense so I think the focus like a focus on Christ Jesus first yourself last others in between white America. I'll just do one spring which will is see if you will be able to roll it. I agree with everything that was set it got thirty years when you've been together. Are we comfortable saying that God's character has been entered Saudi completely vindicated in the person. Christ. In the Christ. Then in his life. That resurrection. Yet cetera. And that human beings are not generating any new life. Any new vindication not generating any thing that hasn't been achieved in now. But rather that we as God's Church. He's the head where the bottom. And he is working through his church. That's as you were going to get in if God I mean. But there's not really anything new being dropped at the table. That we as a people that. That human beings. Well that she in order to bring about a lot of indications that it isn't completely if you cross. So I was it is right. I believe that Christ was a boy there. And I believe that prosecute. David even eat just the way out of their stand for so it's not it's not enough that something new that there's no knowledge about this no do here just after. But just live in mind he said that orse writes that room for all the. It is not only me that if they do. Low probability. To his argument. She's hardly told. That's a whole lot of silly love and so. So we don't have a panel. Like this every single year and guys are going to be invited. Yes go ahead we're going to step out of them on that the christ Object Lesson sixty nine. What Tater there is there's a there's a context. In the petition that's building up to the part when the character fresh will be perfectly reproducing as people then he will come to claim them as his own. And the context the language that is used in that context. Is it is very helpful and fascinating. To make the issue clear because of the other her words not mine. Leading up to that what a shame she says the Christian. In the world is as the representative of Christ. She then says that we are to forget. Ourselves that we are to help others. We're to talk of the love of Christ and tell of his goodness. We're to seek to save the last. We're to manifest the spirit of unselfish love your faith will increase your convictions will deepen your law will be made perfect. Christ is waiting with long heart of member station of himself. So it's a relational concept. And this fits perfectly with the biblical definition of perfection. When we read about perfection in the Sermon on the Mount. The first that comes to most people's minds when we talk about perfection is Matthew five forty eight. Be there for perfect. Even Ask your father in heaven is perfect the verses preceeding are talking about forgiving enemies. And going the extra mile and turning the cheek when Use didn't give me to go those who ask of you again. Manifesting forgiveness of hunger of the who's the father makes the son to. Shine on the righteous anger wicket he's good to all in this ruminatively is the idea. He either or perfectly even if your problem in heaven is perfect. Jesus is talking about the way we relate in the way we treat people. So that shouldn't surprise us we know the Luke version of the same tax in Luke Chapter six. It says Be there for mercy. As your father can happen. Is merciful. So that the focus is on the way we relate to one another the way we treat people and primarily it has to do with relating with mercy and compassion forgiveness. That's the concept she's dealing with in her contacts you know. Yeah and I just want to I have the code up again you know when the character of Christ will be perfectly reproduced then you will come to claim them as a zone. It goes on further and ends where all who were profess to give name bearing fruit to His glory. How quickly the world would be sullen with the seed of the gospel. So it has to do with a manifestation of the actually beats of Jesus that the world sees that. That's the impetus that takes the Gospel to the world. And so we do we do need to move forward. And we still have more to cover here. So I want to go ahead with this. Challenging quote and I like to ask difficult questions. In the writings of Ellen widen scripture perfection has a special as good a logical relevance to the final generation many have struggled. And I'm sure many in this audience have struggled with this following passage. Quote those who are living upon the earth when the intersection of Christ shall cease in the sink surely above are to stand in the sign of a holy God without a mediator their growth must be spotless their characters must be purified from sin. By the blood of sprinkling through the grace of God and their own village and. Must be conquerors. In the battle with evil. While the investigator judgment is going forward in Heaven while the sins of the pen and the believers are being removed from the sanctuary there used to be a special work of purification of putting away of sin among God's people. Upon the earth now time should you wrestle with this. What does that mean that some people will live in the side of a holy God without the mediator. And what gets them through that experience because that sounds awfully scary. Well first of all that the statement means exactly what it says that years. To start with. Yeah. In the broader context of that statement and the writings of inspiration. What it doesn't mean is that suddenly a transition occurs in human history. Were now. Human beings step in to a position before God. In which they are presenting their own. I thought she was righteous in the house for acceptance of her salvation. That's what it doesn't mean. In my understanding what it does mean is that human beings have partaken fully of the righteousness of Christ and are standing before God as the book of Hebrews. Indicates with a clean conscience. Before God. After rest at peace in Christ and utter and complete dependence on him for safe passage through the judgment that they don't want to add to that. And yes it's a police and the US thing about the quote completely agreeing with that it's through Christ strength and the quote is said through the grace of God and their own diligent effort they must be Congress in the battle with evil. I think a lot of discomfort comes from. The part of it where it says through their own diligent effort. And then it was considering forking the focus becomes on their own diligent effort. Through the grace of God and their own diligent effort. But the tech seconds to mind for me is Philippians have to to let the Bible says that work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. And it means exactly what it says. You work out your own salvation of fear and trembling. But then it says because it is God who is working in you to will and to do of His good pleasure. So the the picture and I think it goes back to what I was talking about in the beginning of the Importance of human free will and our ability to choose. That we have a part to play in our salvation it's not a meritorious part to play. But it's a part that God has given to us that you need to make the choice. Your choice will not help you because you have no power to carry it out the things you want to do You can't do the things you don't want to do. Those are the things you do. But you still need to choose that you don't want to do those things. And then the power of God combined with me surrendering my world to God God. I want my world to be on your side. Then God comes and he gives power to the decision that I've made. And is like here and this. So this combination this working together. Of of my choice to follow God and then God comes and he gives power to those choices. That's I think that's the. And that's the part that won't change like whether now or towards the end of time what what does change is that I'm going to now be consistently choosing him. As opposed to before I'm choosing him I'm not I'm choosing him I'm not. You see that in Abraham's journey through his spiritual experience. You know he's got absence got downs but he came to a point in his relationship with God God like you know sacrifice your only son. And he came to the places like you know what I'm going to sacrifice. This thing that God has given to me. Even if it doesn't seem to make sense to me. And you put your will on the side of Christ and then God comes in him powers that. I think that's the. The qualitative. I guess experience of people out of do you have something. Yes you know. I mean you know what you want that. You know the reason. I know that you know with the on my own myself. Him and. Let's quit before we have a few more questions here secret the notion of perfection is a biblical concept. It's found in the writings of L. and Y. and in Scripture. Perhaps the issue surrounding perfection is that we define perfection in correctly. That we've equated perfection to rigid lifestyles and diets. Absence of laughter wearing suspenders by the way if you're wearing suspenders. I think I'm just no fan of growing nerds. And by the way. Good having a beard is in style now so going beards and wearing a homemade dresses. I wish I could wear my make my own clothes so with that sat right I'm just kind of providing a broad caricature. To make a point. With that said. How are we to define perfection. How could we produce present perfection in a way that doesn't lead to legalism and a works. Orientated. Religion. I'll try to do both. Both of the questions I think the first. The first part of how we understand perfection to be. What perfection is you can scripture. The picture that's painted about perfection is that it's about wholeness. And I have to refer back to to the whole the Armenian versus Calvinistic type. Paradigm. This picture of of dynamism of growth versus a static. Idea. So there's one way to look at perfection where it's like you know. This is this is perfection and I must be this is another way to look at perfection which I think is. You know the picture that you see. When Ellen my talks about the seed. That is planted in the ground. And then she says that it grows and at every stage. No she didn't say Jesus said. Giuseppe crows and then at every stage of its growth. It's perfect. At every stage of that growth. And so perfectly you can't be you can't. I'm expecting. And I am expecting a baby. Because of the table but. You know. I'm thinking when when when when our son is two months old. I probably shouldn't get mad at him if he's not walking. This is what I've been told by other moms. You know because a perfect. Two month old is different from a perfect five year old. And the expectation of that you have of that individual at every level of growth. So I guess to say the words that I've seen that are used for perfection at least in the New Testament. It's got this concept of growth of coming to completeness. And if God Himself is not static. God is impacted by his reality. Then why would even our idea of what it means to be perfect be static. We want to become like God in character. Which means that it's a growing experience that we have Jesus Christ himself when he was on earth he said he was perfected. Through the things that he suffered. Does that mean that Jesus was imperfect. When he was fifteen and then he became perfect at thirty. Like at every stage. You're perfect for. It's to making sense I'm saying we're wrong. We've got we've got you on it and then. I think the same power as the works Oriental religion thing I think that focus on what I need to do this I need to be walking even than two months old. I need to be walking right now. You know and then. Like my focus is so much and I need to be walking in order to be a perfect human being perfect human beings walk and of it's a rate I'm already off. Because it's not even about the walking. Rate. It's about your character. So what needs to be happening at every stage in my experience is. I need to be focusing on Jesus. I need to becoming more like Christ. I need. I need Jesus. I need more of Jesus. I need much more of Jesus. And at every stage. Whether I'm just I'm just learning about dietary laws or I've grown up in the church and. I've known the dietary laws and I'm trying to figure out. Nature of Christ and whatever kind of know what at every stage. Whatever. Growth experience I'm going in at every moment in my journey with God. My focus is on Christ and becoming like Christ. As opposed to. I need to do this in order to be a perfect person there's any sense. Just then and I want to go to the next question because it's related to the issue of sake of occasion. And I want to read a quote by a T. Jones in lessons on faith. And I've taught for many years like what are we more and this was a common misconception amongst conscientious spinner prophet believing. Bible believing seventy S. And I'm going to frame it in this way. So this book staves. If you don't state faith is expecting or the Word of God to do what the words. And depending upon that work to do what the words. Since the Word of God is in itself. Creative and so is able to produce and cause to appear what otherwise would never exist nor be seen. It is plain enough that faith is the evidence of things not seen. Goes on to say. When God speaks. The thing is simply because he has spoken. Justification by Faith. Then is justification by depending upon the Word of God only and expecting that we're only to accomplish. The work of God is self fulfilling for in creating all things. He spoke. And it was. That's a powerful wall. And I would believe in that and I believe that. Now when God speaks the thing is just a summarize. God words. Peaks into existence what's not. This is also a reiteration of Hebrews chapter eleven we can depend in trust the on that work. Now I believe that there is potential danger in applying this concept. To saying to pick ation I'm going to open myself up to the panel. To butcher me. All right so this is the assumption that because God's power thumb limited. One can achieve. Ultimate completed perfection in a moment because of what God did with creation. He can do with YOUR sake of it. Keisha. Right. Easily as. That's an easy. Sumption and application you can take with those words of a T. Jones now. This is the implication this could. Inevitably lead one to gauge their acceptance with God based on one's performance. If they're not absolutely perfect in your life well something's wrong with your faith. You're doubting God's creative power. Thus the result is repeated failures in one's life. Inevitably leads towards guilt and feelings of God's displeasure. This ultimately can lead one from God and not towards him. Now I believe this do want understanding of same to Cajun is dangerous and feel logically unsupported from Scripture and the Spirit of Prophecy. I'd like to discuss this issue this question regarding the extent to which we should apply the instant. Ania's creative power of God's work. To sing to pick Aisha. Regarding saying to be cation I believe that God's creative powers utilize and apply. I do affirm them. But it's limited in its scope. You cannot achieve completed. Ultimate sink the cation in a day. I'm going to give you several reason that I'm going to open it up. Number one. The freedom of the will the underlying basis of love number two. God does not cause that's or brainwash you into a state of perfection. Number three he will not perfect you in areas. You're not aware up another was conversion of the bring you to a state of amidships and take you to the next point you are not perfect you above and beyond that which you yourself. Hundred send to intelligently. Fuck So this is the conclusion guys think of buying power. The transformative. With creative power. Is that the same time limited by God respect of our freedom of will and number two the finitude or limitations of humanity. So opening myself up. Would you agree with that. And is there anything else to expound on what I've just shared. I would agree with that. I think that I think that you've attacked or if we describe the difference between the immediate reality of justification. Versus the. The ongoing developmental nature of sanctification and. I think that in both instances. The power have worked. Is the creative redemptive power of God. Creative power in the form of grace is being applied to to develop. Us through the same to occasionally process. But sanctification. Perfection is not instantaneous. It's a growth process so I say amen to how you start Chester. You know I would I would like to just highlights. Number one the the limiting factor of our lives to understand. And sent her to. I think that. I think that we need and when you do you look back at just the ideological truth had to be just as we discovered after the early. Time. So all a little stubbornness out and saying she did things that are not three hundred some years. Let me do the truth was there. It is leaders in the world are and what do I mean if you are what this. I mean because we have from not up to three thousand years. You know. So are ours. We are we. Yes. I want to come into that. I was impacted by reading that book. In that specific way. In my experience. Because I read and I thought oh well all the all I have to do then is just read the Bible every morning and then I'm going to be a different person about the end of the day. And then fall and I get discouraged. And I'm coming to God like but God I used the magic formula I read the Bible. You know why isn't something happening in my life. Because I thought. That's how I read it and I can fly this complaint or the right where you know. OK. And I mean. OK I put. I put them together write the justification scientific ation. I think something that became helpful to me as I came out of that experience was that thinking about even the way that God creates. God created the world in six days. He didn't have to be he chose to create the world in six days. God is powerful enough he could've bam. You know the world one day. Everything that exists exists but God decided. And I'm not God so I can't get into his head why he chose to do it that way. But we can learn something from even if we're taking it from creation and how his creative power works. He chose to take day one. Create something day to create something Day three. And he chose to do it in the process. It didn't mean that His power was limp it was was less because he created one thing in one day he said Let there be light. Who. That's all my power can handle for today. You know. That wasn't it right because God's power is limitless. And yet. In the way that God chose to create our worlds the way that Genesis one and two describes it. It took he took a process. And in the way that he chooses to recreate us. There is that instantaneous there is that power that is instantaneous once you're justified your perfect in God's eyes like you've never sent just as if and never sent right. And yet when it comes to us and to be cation he chooses. And I think it's related to our free will and. And these aspects of discussed. But it's not inconsistent with his creative power to say that God chooses to do it in a process in our lives because he's done that before. We're going to see here. All right so this that's question the fact is. There are many spitter profit quotes and the book excess many facets of final generation theology and we don't have a lot of time for will discuss discuss these final points. And if you can summarize them. Not everything is controversial. Perhaps the issue lies not so much with the fundamental proposition. But rather in terms of an imbalance of emphasis on certain truths at the expense of others. I think Ty you've already kind of touched upon that already. With the eyebrow. Imagery. And I don't think. I don't know if we need to add anything more to that. And so let's go ahead and move on and this is the final subject that. I want to really open up to this audience and that is an appeal to unity. And all been courteous. Dialogue. I know for example there are some some proponents of. And those who support you Y.C. main may not want some of us here on this panel. And I believe in and I disagree with that I believe that that we need to have open discussion I believe that we need to come together and share with what was one another what we believe because there's a lot of misconceptions out there I know and I have to share. Kayu and I I came to you a couple Jew Y.C. the go and I said hey. There are some things that I've heard about you that that. I just don't know if you're a good dude you're a good guy and I was I was really happy that we have that conversation it really opened my eyes to a lot of or at least to clarify many things many misconceptions that I had now. And I want to segue into this quote here from from from you and I think you hit it right on the nail. Yes it's in title conservative or liberal remember writing that probably did. Yeah. And he says this It doesn't matter how different Conservatives and Liberal the peer to be on the surface because they tend to have one defining characteristic. In common use a strong word there they needed to other who they hate each other or and then you qualify so at least they dislike this credit disavow and politically dismember. One another. Well that's maybe not a Muppet Show. Now on both sides there is pride of opinion and I think we would all agree with that there is an arrogance of attitude in most glaringly a spirit of censor against the other side. So the differences are only skin deep. While at Fort they are blue by one and the same spirit the spirit of self-serving. Enmity. That crucified. Genes us. There's no virtue in being a conservative and there's no virtue in being a liberal. The only virtue at all is in Christ in our only real safety is to live his love towards those with whom we find ourselves at odds. Especially towards those with whom we find ourselves at aunts I really appreciate that book by the way. So final question is unity. Or at the very least open respectful dialogue in regard to debated. Feel logical copeck So too much to ask if Ellen White were alive today what would be her. Council. And what are some practical ways to OG Macrorie increase due to tea and open dialogue within a church that at this time in Earth's history. Meet unity. More than anything else. And I just want to say on White says press together. Press together for unity there is strength. I want to open it up to you as we conclude respect each other yes I think we do at this moment in the call there. You know what's whole state leave. He's credible. I mean live without fear and you know you order. You know if you know you need a lot of letters all of the absolute all the really focused on a little over the it is what you are partly for this. I do need. You know is the latest one ruling mean to me that others are not. This is very. I mean this is one of you. I come away. We've got the revolution. You know what it was both of them are going to be you know because of that cross. You know from my trust or are you really really really really thought we were first even though you probably will do that and yes they were lovely and they were there of the See if you say where it was that eight out of the land and this is one that he's not really in our hearts. We really love talking to this essay really first. There's a real life. Oh yeah this site is that we have the ability to listen to each other listen to the world. And I'll try to create landmarks. Lives that rather see the light. I was with problems. I feel from about. Reality. Yes assented to share the text and if you just have to for I reference it before. And if you didn't have to force one. Paul writes he says I there for the prison of the Lord. Beseech you that you walk worthy of the vocation where with year called with all lowliness and meekness with longsuffering forbearing one another in love and that word forbearing means it's going to be hard. Endeavoring. That means trying hard. Endeavoring to keep the unity of the spirit in the bond of peace. And he goes on and then he says but to every one of us. Grace is given on court into the measure of the gift of Christ. And he said he says send it up high and he gave gifts to his church some apostles. So he gives spiritual gifts to his church. Until we all come to the unity of faith. And this picture that emerges and if you can spoil is this unity for the purpose of unity. You saying be united there's going to it's going to be hard you're going to have disagreements you don't see eye to eye. But God has given us as a church. Spiritual gifts. He's brought us together as a church so that we can together come to grow into Christ. And so if were if it's. If we get so stuck in our heads that. I have the right idea and you're wrong and so therefore we cannot have fellowship. We actually won't accomplish what God is trying to do in us as a people the way. I think you know as far as the question you're asking why counsel us. The current situation in history. This is not the first. You know which. The lights to the effect. Transformations upon them with a stylish. Excuse me. Upon which he delights to have that transformation so wonderful that the jewels look upon them with a stylish Mint enjoy. Heaven is full of rejoicing. When the members of the human family. Are seems to be so full of compassion for one another loving one another as a prize has a lot of them. In another statement she says the grace of Christ must hold our entire beaten and its triumph will not be complete until the whole heavenly universe shall witness of this you will tenderness a feeling. Christ like and holy deeds in the department of the children of America. From immersed in point. As the angels as as Heaven looks on their looking for things that oftentimes. We're not that concerned about. I mean it's astounding to me that she's saying here that the angels are concerned with the way we feel toward one another that you want tenderness of feeling. What's that. I can easily in a SAS your diet your dress. You know your theological differences with with one person or another but. But is the whole heavenly universe books on there looking for compassion. In our treatment of one another within the Body of Christ it's not helpful to the advancement of theological discussion. For us to to censor and assess and package one another in theological boxes and say you know this person is off and that person has it right there is a certain. There is a certain doctrinal orthodoxy within which we operate and a Seventh Day Adventist believes certain things by definition. And then outside of the parameters of those doctrinal verities that we all agree on. There is room for discussion there is room for growth and development in our understanding. And that requires us to exercise compassion toward one another to hear what we're saying to one another a man. We're going to have the going clothes were out of time. I just want to say that this discussion has been a blessing to me. What I really appreciate about it it's a crisis. How many of you heard. G.'s us uplifted. This afternoon. And I want that to be the. The takeaway I think that's from all of us. And certainly let's try for truth. In love and in unity let's go ahead and close with it word of prayer. The powerhead How many paths are we. Certainly haven't resolved all the questions. And all the issues that are confronting and facing the church today. But Lord we pray that this will be a step in the right direction of open discourse and and talking to one another and no we don't want to pray that you know also inspire us with with increased. Motivation to study the Word of God and study the spirit of prophecy as we have never ever done before and to dig into Scripture and we thank you Lord for this discussion we thank you for being here with us and we want to ask all of this. In the name of Jesus. This message was recorded at the G Y C twenty fifteen conference called chosen. Faithful in Louisville Kentucky. Do you want to see the supporting Ministry of a Seventh Day Adventist Church. Seeks to inspire young people to be bible based Christ centered and soul winning Christians. To download or purchase other resources like this visit us online at W W W G Y C web.


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