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Logo of GYC 2017: Arise

5. When the Notes Clash

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Conference

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  • December 29, 2017
    9:15 AM
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This message was presented at the G.U.Y.Z. twenty seventeen conference arise in Phoenix Arizona for other resources like this visit us online at W W W dot. Org. Alrighty welcome everyone. We're happy to have all you here few people are coming and there's more seats in the front here come and join us are you excited to talk about conflict music. This is always a hot topic. Will be. Will be will be starting with a discussion on some questions on how to deal with conflict in music but we won't. We won't limit the questions to just that topic as we go on it through texting and questions it's OK to extend that to beyond other areas around music I apologize if we don't get to all of your questions some questions maybe better just to come up to us afterwards and we can share if you're looking for resources or something like that we may not address that in the panel but don't you know feel free to come up and we will chat with you after if we didn't get to your question during the panel. I hope the screen is pretty self-explanatory text your questions in they're coming in right here I can see them as they come in and we'll try to we'll try to answer them I may summarize some questions if I see multiple questions that are similar I may summarize it to to accommodate multiple people asking similar questions and oh yes just about chairs up here guys twenty chairs up front. Scattered all through here come on up welcome welcome. Really quick I just wanted to mention this book The Music of heaven. By John Thurber this is a book that we several of us in the committee have used as we have been studying this and preparing for the summer I just wanted to share this book with you forgot to mention it yesterday it's a very good practical book it's older book but it's straightforward practical has lots of principles if you're looking for a good resource I would find it on Amazon that's the only place I could find it there maybe other places if someone knows a better place please let me know I found it on Amazon so feel free to come take a picture of the front afterwards if you like the music of Heaven by Jon Thurber. I borrowed heavily from that book yesterday. All right so introduce our panel you guys could go through your name what musical instrument you play or instruments. OK My name is Ariel he call. My predominant instrument I guess would be voice but I also play piano and guitar My name is James Cleveland I play the violin and some piano and also sing wings and. I'm pastor Doug bachelor and I saying I play guitar violin flute piano I just haven't found anyone to listen yet. My knee was anywhere at it and I play violin I sing and just a tiny bit of piano. And my name is Caleb Ganser like I play guitar and I sing and just a tiny bit piano and we're glad to have you with us Pastor Doug I hope it was a surprise to you guys. We're excited to have you with us this will be fun. All right our first question. Can the panel share a couple of personal examples where you have had to deal with conflict around music and how you dealt with those situations that's a good point thank you James let's start with prayer. All right let's pray. Our Father in heaven we thank you for the music you've created for us to enjoy and to praise you with we ask you be with us now as we discuss this important topic and how to how to better handle when we don't know how to agree on music help us to understand your will in this matter between Jesus' name and then you know. Personal examples where you've had to deal with conflict in music and how you dealt with that. Well. OK. What I was I didn't have to deal with this personally but I felt the effects of this encounter I think we might be able to get a discussion going with that example. We had a group. A group come to found the Academy to do a concert one time. And I was student of the time my dad at the time was directing the music department of family and of course it was under his jurisdiction to kind of decide you know what they were going to perform and I remember I got out of class and I was in a class break I walked into the auditorium and they were doing a rehearsal. And. I don't know you just know about the kind of music they're playing that that's just not the kind of music that we re doing in a fountain view and it was kind of awkward because I was like oh snap like are they going to do that at the concert tonight and I remember talking to dad at lunch and he was tell us to tell us how you went through all the songs and how he had told them you know you can do this one this and this one but you're going to have to just you know make up a concert out of these ones that you know I feel are right and and it's not because he was passing moral judgment on them but it was just like we had a standard At found you took hold and we had to go through all the songs and decide and I'm going to you on us with you know super awkward because you don't want to like offend people by saying no we don't want this on like because it was a good song and they could do it well I'm sure they've done it many places and done it well but it just yeah there was a standard we we upheld it and it was awkward That's my experience with it. I have a story that doesn't exist exactly it didn't happen in a church setting by we were practicing a small group in college and one of our good friends he's a very talented pianist was playing and we had. An individual who was on campus at the time come in and he had just been converted he. So kind of an interesting character very sincere but and started talking about how brother the Lord has like Let us and I'm going to work with you and he starts doing spoken word like hard core rapping and we call like OK and I was like what our friend he was like leading us out Mike I hope he deals with it because I don't know how to deal with this but something that was really interesting that my friend did is he didn't say you know what actually we don't agree with that like we're not going to do that he just said he thanked him for being interested and thanked him for his desire to do ministry and. Just kind of left it at that like he never said nobody never said yes either and eventually and it didn't take very long like I think the individual understood and then but he didn't have hurt feelings either because we hadn't Like told him No but we just said you know thank you like I appreciate that you're interested in doing this and God bless you kind of thing and so that kind of just moved it over and he wasn't pushy about it so that's another thing if someone's not like pushing pushing pushing but they just show an interest you can just say you know I'm really glad you're interested in doing ministry and I appreciate your sincerity. And then kind of just move on and sometimes that works to you doesn't always but in that situation a DEAD. I think when we're talking about music most people believe that there is good music and there's bad music. I do every now and then hear from a few people think some text in questions I think any music can be used to praise God music is neutral in any music could be used that's a minority most people leave there is godly music and there's a tannic music where the interest comes in is where do you draw the line. And everybody seems to draw the line differently and how do you deal with a conflict where you're drawing the line in a different place with another believer. And just an example of you know where we encounter this in a church of course is a lot of people come in they want to share their gifts or a message the Lord's given them and we need to evaluate it based on a certain set of principles and and sometimes we need to say you know we don't use tracks here or that we don't think that's appropriate for the worship service it might be end of Angelus that meeting. And just trying not to hurt the person's feelings but staying with the biblical principles and so there's no limit to the different ways that those conflicts can manifest themselves and then we have good people in the church we have even one of our church and Sacramento are going to be. Say look to avoid problems we're just going to sing from the hymnal. And then we have other good people there biblically right they say the Bible says it's OK to sing a new song. And so but they're afraid that new song will be you all know what a seven eleven song is. So one of the new contemporary songs is just almost like a trance where you sing the same seven words eleven times. So. We just try to bring the church together Thea law. Directly that yeah there's a great theology in the hymns but it's not a sin the sing a new song and of the new song people respect to him people and just keep everyone working together is a challenge. I think for us so the key was balancing out we I actually I have a lot of stories from high school but in our high school we actually were I went to boarding school and we were transitioning from in the process transitioning from those praise songs to more songs I had more content and songs that you know really had the message that we needed for our time and it was incredibly hard because everybody was like well you know why can't we do this that doesn't make sense like you know you're just baiting Christian music and you're just trying to be you know sort of thing but you know we in that situation we just had to keep firm and the staff had to keep firm and at the end of the day you know a year later or several months later the students found themselves loving the music and they were kind of saying I remember one of my friends saying to me and she was just like you know I used to really love the music the praise music I used to be out there and we used to sing in. It in worships and and now she says that when she sings those same songs they just don't feel the same it just feels like they're kind of just singing there's really nothing you know coming out from the heart there's no message that's coming up to the audience so that's kind of an effect for us of how we dealt with. I am William got through just remember the music department and I had anybody from somebody mess with my mouth so I sound a little funny in that. Conflict in music this is a little I don't think probably not the intent of the question necessarily but it's something that came to mind for me in my own experience is I've grown up in a family where we did a lot of music. In the church and you know in all kinds of venues and my parents really encouraged us I think it paid for a lesson if you know and did all this training over the years and encourages used for ministry that was your intent and. What a lot of times I can remember many Friday nights where we were trying to prepare for this special music the next day and there was conflict. And I can see for myself you know I was I don't think my heart was always in it you know and I think that can come through in when we share music. And I think over the years I've come to appreciate more the purpose of sharing music and that music the message needs to come from the heart and your heart needs to be. Right before God. Or should I say he should be he should be living in our hearts. When we share music otherwise. The whole the whole concept of music can be thrown off so I think that's another element. Working with other musicians working with your family working with whoever it is. To truly be seeking Christ and the Holy Spirit so that it's not. A show it's not it's not about you as a musician it's about what the Lord has laid on your heart if you're with other people because honestly the only message that people will resonate with is the message that the Lord has laid on your heart. And as it's a case of bail and even if your heart is not right with the Lord the Lord can still speak through you but how much better to have a heart that's right with God and to be a little that's it and I says I'm through so. All right our next question. Is is there ever a time. When it's OK to make small compromises in Christian music principles to maintain good working relationships with your friends and fellow musicians so that you can leave those friends and musicians to a better understanding of God's music leader. OK So my feeling on this question is that a compromise shows that it really doesn't matter and so if you're trying to show eventually if you want to lead that person to a. Higher standard if you compromise that standard yourself with the intent of someday trying to say actually this really is important we're going to say wait a second but you proved to me that it isn't important because you were willing to compromise on it at the beginning so I think it's very important for us to stand very firm to principle and to our standards and realize that you can uphold that standard in a Godly and loving way they can still show that person that you care about them but at the same time show that it's really important and then the fact that you stand firm to that will communicate to them that it's something important that they should stand for to. So I think I've maybe experienced a little bit of this we moved to a church. And the I was it's a case typically when you move to a new church. There's an established way of doing things there's a lot of people there that kind of. And you may not I think the question here is we need to. We need to understand what these writers judgment and what is. Personal maybe better than thou more righteous maybe there is a higher standard to reach. There is a higher calling but we need to understand where people are in the journey and their journey with God and in their experience and so far as possible through with was all men and so far as possible in the in the grace of God given us as Paul says to be all things all men I mean I think you know I'm not and I'm in no way trying to contradict said here but I do think there's a sense in which we need to approach these things carefully because if you enter with a spirit into the you know if you if you enter into an environment with a spirit of my way or the highway and you know and you alienate these people because this is the way they've been doing music and they don't see any other way. You've not done any good for the Cause of God at all you've only made you know. Strange these people and. I think I experience a little bit of that entirely coming in you know it's like us this is hard to listen to you know but as we've worked over the years with some of these people. It's amazing how the Lord's work I mean we've been able to play music in a community. And. You know all kinds of different avenues that the Lord has opened and. In the end you know the Lord is able to I think bring things together and we're willing to work together as the Body of Christ with people of varying levels of understanding All right. This is I'm going to ask two questions here but they're very much related how can I encourage nonmusical pastoral staff and elders to stick to inspired musical guidelines they seem to let everything pass as long as we have someone. And the follow up the other question is Pastor Doug how have you found music to be the most. Wanted here how have you been able to use music most effectively in your past world ministry. So let's start with the first lawyer and we can transition to the cycle. How can we inspire nonmusical pastoral staff to stick to inspired guidelines. If you like to you're welcome to. In our church we founded saved us and this goes back to a small church I pastored and then in Sacramento Central we developed a policy we voted it we had a music committee we looked at the principles of music it's so hard to know where to draw is some of the lines so we just came up with certain principles that we thought would save us. And. Once we had the music policy we had the board voted and then it became a decision of the church that we want the highest standard of music we actually the policy also included anyone singing it had a dress code because some people came with a beautiful song but because a it was distracting because they weren't dressed appropriately so we just had you know whoever is bringing music in the church here's the policy and so whenever someone said we've got a person that wants to come and sing or play or whatever we say great we're glad to have you here's the policy if they had a song we would always a guest group would say. We need to have a demo if you have a CD or something because you know we need to be able to hear it we don't like to find out just before Nothing's more awkward for a pastor just before you get up to preach you often have the special music. And. I remember going to an evangelistic meeting where I eat Cleveland was getting ready to speak at a camp meeting and there the music just before he got up I was there that day the music before he got up was doubtful. And he got up and immediately he just looked at the audience he said It is amazing to me the things that some people call music. What he said and. But. You don't want to have an awkward experience just before the sermon. And so it really helps to just have a policy of the Church votes then your elders and your deacons and everybody you say this is the policy that didn't fit with the policy to says the church decision and hopefully everyone can move together and well in what was the second question the second question was Pastor Doug as a pastor an evangelist How does music complement your ministry and how important is music to you I'm glad you ask that because you know why we're talking about music we're often gravitate towards what's the wrong kind of music music is such a powerful thing in such a positive thing in worship in praise in in the vandalism when the words. Of your message can also be put into song and be made into an appeal. I think music has been very very effective in. Breaking people out of depression in when their hearts are stony and you make the appeal. It can to soften their hearts and have them respond and so there's no limit of ways I could say that it's a blessing in a positive thing in music elements it is part of prayer many songs are a prayer and so it's extremely important. And the other answers answers to the first question. First question was. How can I encourage nonmusical pastoral staff and elders to stick to inspired musical guidelines they seem to let anything passes long as we have something. Studying together and creating a guideline that's a pretty good approach Yeah I think what Actually Doug said is tremendous advice because in terms of conflict if you have something objective to look at it helps so much I know that if I'm in medical school so is the medical example but this as everybody knows is an opioid academic epidemic in our country you know and I talked to this or that your physician was talking through I think she's made it her policy not to prescribe any opioids and that you are and that's you know that's his decision and I said I could terminally ill you know cancer patients or something but in California there's a registry of. Opioid prescriptions so if you've been prescribed opioids it'll show up in the registry under your name so when somebody comes seeking them you just simply goes in prints out the list and then brings out to them and says Well here we have the list you know what it looks like we have a problem what's the what's the problem here and then we comes in objective truth for them what could have become a very tense conflict situation becomes very diffuse when you have something that everybody has decided on that is exactly true and that it's an issue that needs to be dealt with so I think music you know these differences apply. I had a situation in when I was doing a summer program and we were doing evangelist experience and we were how I was personally as well as actually speaking for a Spanish church and it was really hard to deal with because the people at that church they were you know they had a small church they didn't really have that much and I would bring up stuff I would bring up issues or something it's like you know we would really be nice to have this sort of music because they had you know a different type of music that was playing like you know for evangelist series be nice to have you know at least some good him some music that you know is going to actually complement the the man. Ssage and I was faced with the Funch of problems a bunch of people that were saying well you know you're new here you're not supposed to be telling us what to do you know we already have a church it was it was actually extremely hard and Lord had to humble me in a way but so what I did was I began to bring people from different the other students from the other programs. And inviting them to sing and to play and to have you know music that would decide tell them you know well some serious today is going to be I like these people to sing for song service before I speak and as that begins to go on they begin to realise that you know this music was actually really nice some people the audience or the not the audience but the car began to say well I like this music I don't really you know want that type of music to come on and so I wasn't really telling them oh we can't have that music week I really don't you know I did tell one of the elders but. By having that example by having someone come over it actually begins to resolve on its own. So that kind of leads to our next question how do you deal with cultural issues in music how can we find a balance between godly but being sensitive to cultural differences. I think it's a myth that once you cross into another culture the principles are different. The principles for music are the same around the world if you're in America and you want to put a baby to sleep with a lullaby you usually saying you know Brahms one is that you know this is something gentle. If you're going to lead soldiers to war there are worse songs marching songs they're going to be similar in many countries you don't sing a war song to a baby in India or Africa or. There are romantic songs a Bible even has one of the Song of Solomon. You don't sing romantic songs the soldiers when they're going out on the battlefield. But you'll find the principles of those songs and the styles and how those songs move you can easily discern those in any country of the world you'll know right away this is a song It'll put a baby to sleep you don't want that just before the sermon. And or this is a song that's supposed to you know work people up into a frenzy before they go to battle and then there are diabolical songs that are it there it's a hypnotic you put people into a trance and they have those in all different cultures and it's the same principles of music you're going to recognize So there may be different instruments you may play a Setar in India and the guitar in California but the principles of the songs in the music are going to be the same. I think one thing we can think about is when we talk about cultural music you think about where music even comes from and I think two extreme examples of United States our music comes from Europe it really doesn't mean we have the Western music or what is Western music mean it's a conglomerate of a lot of different ideas coming from the West you know we have the. Renaissance era brought in a lot of new kind of music from the other baroque period in the and then the Romantic period all these kinds of music were brought to America when you know when the and the pilgrims traveled across but and the thing is then you have to remember one of the pilgrims come across they were this was a religious you know a lot of logistics Bishan and so they brought with them religious music I believe of course they brought with them their cultural you know gigs and stuff that I had written and that kind of thing you know and we have classical music in North America well it's a very developed country and it's a very. Praise God it's still a Christian country. But and so when we go across to you like say Africa and you want to do you know A if you want to do a song service in Africa they have hymns over there too I can tell you that much they have their own himno they have their own Adventist hymn book they have a lot of the same songs we do but then when you say well we want to do culture music well you have to think what is their culture their culture is and please understand me I don't want to be like this could become a common across as racist and that's not all I'm trying to say I'm just trying to give you a background to what even is cultural music the culture of Africa is steeped in. It's like voodoo and a lot of spiritualism and that's where their music comes from and so when you when you say we're going to do cultural music if we're doing Adventists cultural music you've got to think about what there's even mean like you really want to mix the old culture with Christianity it's. So so yes there's culture music but like faster Doug said there principles are universal OK. There was a speaker someone who's kind of studying these things in terms of the philosophical underpinning of music and. I think a lot of times the discussion centers or I've heard or heard this said that you know well I like music you know I like this music or I like this music it's my preference you know. And it's almost in can become an untouchable subject because you can't you know you can't say anything that's totally subjective but it's very interesting with that philosophically speaking principles are by their very nature universal and so you cannot say that music. Is somehow one area of life that escape from reality essentially it's just it doesn't logically make any sense and so therefore you know on as Christians we have universal principles and they are universally political across all realms of our life you know just because we like one type of food. Doesn't mean that it's good for us you know if I said well I like you know the poisonous mushrooms I mean you know that fish like you can like them but it may not go so well for you you know so I think it's in kind of I mean not to be silly but. I don't want to and I don't want to make make make fun of people who come from that perspective but I think a lot of the our culture and the way of thinking that has you know kind of postmodern thought that has crept into our society has really affected sometimes our understanding that you know there are universal kind of principles that they don't change you know and music doesn't escape that realm of reality. And this is just. When you deal with these situations because I think each of us probably will at some point and I know my husband and I have with churches and whatnot and I think the most important thing that we can do when approaching a situation like this is pray a lot because as easy as it is for us all to say that principles are the same no matter where you are which I believe is true. There are very few things in this life that people are attached to like their music especially if they view it as their culture and so you have to be very very careful when you approach the situation and definitely pray definitely study. The inspiration that we have in Spirit of Prophecy in the Bible and just ask for God to give you wisdom as you deal with these situations because it won't be easy and people will be upset at you and. And I think we have to realize that it's not an us against them mentality. And we really need to study together and come to this understanding together but prayer is the most important thing that you can do. OK. There's been a lot of questions coming in about Classical Romantic paroch composers and their appropriate use in the church setting are these composers and this style of music appropriate for church if so why you know why. I'm the least qualified person here to talk about classical music I can't read music. But. The I think really at the heart of that question is is there good music that may be wasn't written by a believer. And I think most of us know the history that there are a lot of cultural songs I say cultural I'm not talking about you know a nation but there were songs that were written by sailors that had to say their words songs. That were really written by Christians that are in our hymnal I could give you like beach Springs in a few others whistle it for you. The song we all know. That was Danny Boy it was I think an Irish or Scottish song it was had nothing to do with facing a lot during World War two and nothing really to do with Christianity but sooner hymnal now I cannot say why he whom angels worship in so I don't say so and then a mighty fortress was a I thought it was a folk song and Martin Luther knew it was a great rousing melody was very catchy so let's put Christian words to it and have it take off so there obviously can be good music that may not have even been written by a Christian and. And this yeah OK I'll stop there. Classical music I love classical music so much and this is a hard question because some people want to say you know let's you know and it's another one of these examples you know where do you approach a person. No we're not going to classical music in our church and they're going to be like what you know especially if they come from a church where they do. Again like I said yesterday why do we do music why writing music why are we performing music and if you if you think about that then you can decide how the song is going to come across is this classical piece going to actually honor and glorify God or is he going to honor and glorify how fast I think you're some go on the violin or the piano and it may sound kind of kind of like flippant but I'm serious about that like some classical pieces have absolutely no uplifting value if it's so complicated all you can all the people get at the end of psych while he's been practicing that for months you know it's like a lot of these songs that I do for special music is like I sit down with my brother like we've got to do a special music tomorrow and and that's not I don't recommend that but I'm saying like. I'm saying that that if if you are going to do it for God then it's then you didn't care what kind of song you choose and let's just be clear there are some classical pieces that were written specifically with Christianity in mind with worship in mind I mean a lot of Bach's pieces he wrote at the end of his stuff to the glory of God I mean to me that's pretty powerful when you think of like some such a world famous artist and composer and not forgetting where his talent came from and we think of like Handel's Messiah I mean that is one of the most popular songs to date I mean every season I know of many churches that will sing the whole thing as like a church event I mean that's classical music you can't deny it and is that wrong. You're going to have to really find a good argument to convince me that's not worship music you know I mean so I don't think it's a it's a white and black a black and white thing but there's principles involved and I think it's when you think about why you're doing it it can affect what you choose to do. I'd like to just present this is a combination. Three questions on this same topic that I think you almost touched on James It says I have a friend who once played a popular classical piece during the collection of the tithes and offerings and music was beautiful but everyone clapped after and it changed the mood of the worship service is this OK. Well there you go you got a result and you have to go back and as a music committee if you're blessed to have on your church decide is that the result that we're looking for after types of offerings where they clapping because they got one hundred grand in the offering plate or were they clapping because the pianist was amazing I mean it's not it's not a funny thing really though because I mean I play offerings all the time and personally I try and keep my offering songs as simple as possible so that people can reflect and actually you know think logically while they're doing their time sufferings we are marching to war with our offering. Quickly here I just want to add something along these lines. And I think classical music sometimes just may be put on a pedestal or something and it can be misunderstood because classical music is. By no means include It includes a lot of music that we would never really want to listen to as Christian I mean there are many composers in say Russia you know during the you know time when atheism was was a dominant religion who composed pieces that hark back to pagan Russian advance if you know like the truth or these. You know they think it's very you know pagan ritual dances very you know sexual and all these kind of things are Wagnerians you know dance of the with the sabbath you know these kind of pieces that you know the world considers great music and if you talk to any aquatic a musician you know and at Publix we're going to be like what you don't you know you don't think that's great music and it isn't and there's another piece I just wanted to give you guys a quick listen to a tiny bit of it here if it will. Anyway this is a piece and. We listen to this stuff because people look at this is like classical intellectual music it's called Threnody to the victims of Hiroshima but just this is an example classical music is by no means you know. All inclusive term for good music and I think we need to be you know cognizant of that definitely Bach wrote his musical way of God and we can look at a certain class of composers who have really been in time vein of thought but there's also a lot of. A lot of sin and vice associated even with some of the classical history so I think it important to say principled wherever we are again yeah. Very briefly we're going to move on in just a minute to go ahead so I'm going back to the next question about the plot is right there was a question about it was after you you see it was in but everyone applauded what was so this is my sorry my personal experience before I was converted I performed as a musician in secular venues and applause is like everything when you do that because that means they loved it and you did it well and you you you like you nailed it you know what I mean and you crave that I craved that like nothing is more fulfilling than when people are like applauding and screaming and hollering and like why an encore. So fast forward to when I'm converted and I finish singing at church and all of a sudden people start. Being and like even some kids would like cat call and instantly Where's my mind my mind isn't in worship anymore to God It goes back to what I used to feel when I would perform without wanting to bring glory to him and I think it's so important for us to realize when you applaud. Generally as a rule you're not applauding because you were so moved and humbled and odd at the greatness of God you're applauding to show your appreciation for the musician who just saying or played and as a musician and I know many of you are as well it's so important for us to remember that we're not singing for the audience or the congregation we're singing for Christ and. And I think it's important for people to realize that too that when they clap they're not showing glory to God for the gift that he has given you there they're showing you glory for how you you sing and I think I know it's been a big stumbling block for me and it instantly just kind of ruins the worship experience for me so I think that's something that we need to keep in mind as well when maintaining a worshipful experience. Others kind of go is car in compassing everything but these two questions in our church I know that there are a lot of people who are not exposed to this type of classical music they don't really associate classical music any type of classical music with worship of God Just because you know of where they come from what type of experience they have an education and you know it's like we limit ourselves to really sticking to music if it has you know no it has no words that it has at least some sort of Him that hasn't Lisa that sort of you know so that people can think about it and they can go back and if it has words and you know that we can change the melody or something like that because even in our case if they play for example a song that was from you know a box piece that was really meant to be played in church but because our church has not had really that much experience with it they don't have the history with it they'll clap they'll just kind of be in that place so I think also taking consideration what kind of congregation you have a kind of members you have and what their background is with music and that's really important as well. A follow up question that's come in is you have a couple of very brief examples on how to encourage the audience to give the glory to God no matter what music you're playing. And I I think I'm going to start by giving a curse word. And then maybe you guys could one thing that I have done with concerts is the very first song is first of all we try to not keep it try to keep the first song from being too grandiose if you save those for later in the concert and immediately following that first song that the musicians on stage we would eventually we would immediately you know respond of our own accord you know praise the Lord let us pray not together before the audience has any way to respond on their own and it set the mood for the entire program and people realize even when you're in churches where that's very common for them to do that people realize what we wanted to give the glory to and it set the mood for the entire concert that was one way that helped me and the other examples. When you have the church you can educate your church and they all understand that when during worship and you have a program that we show prays to God at the conclusion will say because a song is like a prayer you would say amen. And but every now and then you'll have visitors it's kind of awkward at times you know we'll have some visitors from you know some evangelical church and that's our first time there and some will do beautiful special music and they just happen and then they look around oh we all think about them if you like and especially so we just every now and then you need to update educating the members said you notice we know God is here we just really appreciate the gifts he's given the different people how we can praise him the way we do it here is at the end of a special music or something we will just say thank you lord or a man and and but we don't applaud So you just it's and matter of education I think. All right this is a completely change complete change of directions outside the church this is very interesting Should Christians quit their jobs if the workplace is playing worldly music all day long she stores restaurants etc. Conflict and use it outside of the church I think you're going to have a hard time finding somewhere to work if you want to quit what are you I mean that's just I think I think we also have to realize that as Christians living. In in the world a Christmas tree in the world but not of the world it's something we're going to deal with on a daily basis and I think you have to. I know that it's something I really struggled with after my conversion I didn't want to go to the grocery store because they played all the songs I used to listen to and I just like deleted from my hard drive. But by God's grace give it a few years I don't know any of the new songs they're playing and he's also brought me to the point where you can kind of I mean I don't expect them to uphold the same standards that I believe to be important and so you have to realize that this is the point that they're at now I would say if it's a really big struggle for you in a really big temptation like maybe that's a different situation where you would have to pray about what God wants you to do you but. It's something we're going to deal with on a daily basis and we have to be prepared to to meet that and realize that the world isn't going to follow the same guidelines that we will I'm going to interject with a follow up question here you have any practical advice on how you can encourage a better musical atmosphere with non Christians secular setting. This still is connected with the first question but it may bleed over into the second one it is very hard in our culture as my sister was saying here too you know you can't run away and live in a cave sixteen words for him. And when David Livingston went to do mission work in Africa he writes in his diary that there were very few nights when he would go to sleep and not hear the music of the villages and if you're going to do mission work you can still have not going to do mission work or these people because I'll be exposed to this you know while music you won't get anything done. I don't know about you I like to eat it should Poli. But I've had people call me while I was it supposed and I have to always apologize and say No I'm not at a rock concert I said that's the music I've actually gone to the counter before and I tell them I said Could you help me I said I'm talking to someone for dinner and I'm hard of hearing Can you just turn it down until I leave and then and they'll do that that's like a practical way that you know try to cope with it but it is all around us I think that one of the keys is overcome evil with good make sure little by little we can start changing your values hearing it could tell real quick story. It's scared me I was actually on my way to speak at a and a man conference in Palm Springs I was late and I got my rental car and I'm racing out of the rental car place and I'm putting on my seatbelt and trying to get acclimated to what kind of car driving I'm adjusting the mirrors I'm getting out on Interstate ten and I drove that car for ten minutes. Looking at my G.P.S. trying to figure out where I was going and it was ten minutes before I realized that when I turned the ignition of the car on there was awful music that was plain I did nothing to turn it off for ten minutes it didn't even occur. To me and that's kind of frightening I thought I got I've gotten so used to hearing that in the background that it didn't bother me used to really bother me and so we've got to be careful that we just don't get where it doesn't bother us and pretty soon through familiarity you can it actually embrace it. And so you overcome evil with good you've got to be listening to the right kind of music and keep reminding yourself and compartmentalize in your mind this is not good. Your mind you sold your mind your family. Because you're going to be exposed to it you just got to separate it. Really really quick so again and example our medical school and so far of our training we go to we go through Taishan one of them a surgery and so we're in the operating room and the operating room doctor is the one who's I mean he essentially has a veto power and watch played and here in the O.R. all day every day you know essentially especially if you're. A nurse or and I see all of this or anesthetists or scrub tech or whatever your role is in the operating room and you don't have a say over as a medical student I did something kind of illegal one day and I you know in the mix on pandora I just threw in some Tchaikovsky and there just to see what happened you know they would notice it and then the faucet surgeon got going on her part of the surgery and she says What is this playing out of her my i Pod And there's this I can guess which And I just realized I didn't say anything and nobody knew who had done it so I escaped but. The point is if the the invite and that's a temporary situation for me as a student but if you environment is such that you are working in that environment and you feel like it is tearing down your spirituality because there's some you know we want to say specialties or anything but there are some areas of medicine that particular can play some pretty vile stuff. And if it if that's really you know there's other areas of the hospital you know as a nurse or you know that you might be able to work and I think that you know restaurants mentioned I think the fast food tends to go with the fast music you don't go to a nice Italian evening dinner and have the you know the heavy metal blaring you know it just doesn't work that way you know the part of the thing is the fast food places want you to be energetic again and get out because they want to get as many people through if astable you know so you know if you are in a restaurant you can switch to a slower pace you know pray about it though the Lord can open the door you can open the OR door and you can leave or you can open the restaurant door to another one there anyway. I I asked driver one time we could listen to classical music star a whole spiritual discussion. All right next question. This is brief I just want to brief answer on this should participants in music instrumental or vocal in the church or worship service be baptized admin is Christians or can they be people of any faith. Yes. OK So this is a situation where you don't know a person's heart but for those of you that enter and you don't and we have to know the context of it for those of you that were at the seminar that Caleb and I did yesterday Ellen White is very very very clear that we should not be hiring non-Christian and non administrate musicians to come and do music at our church in our meetings and if you want the quote for that come up to me after and I'll give it to you but. She's very very clear about that in that they need to be consecrated and godly because she talks about if they do not have the principles that they're singing about embodied in living in their hearts that they won't be a blessing to those that are hearing so I think that's something we really need to take into consideration and that any part in the church service is an honor. And even though. You may say well it could be a way to reach someone's heart yes but if they're not converted singing a song at your church most likely isn't going to convert them either it takes a lot more than that. So I know that my husband is a pastor and we don't allow non administers to sing at our church for that reason so now that being said I have a friend sitting on the front the front row here Robin and he was a teen our church for a long time and not baptized and he would play the piano for us sometimes. But he was taking Bible studies and he was moving in the right direction and he wasn't just coming for the sake of coming he was coming because he wanted to learn and be baptized so I think that's a different situation that you have to look at in a case by case basis. There's an example there's a church actually around here and we went to their church service and their Christmas program and they had. Actually not address people but they were interested in the church they had not to address people in their choir and by having the people in their choir and as they were you know kind of interacting with them moving forward they began to like the beat the end coming to the church and actually coming to events and to the church services even though they didn't have to sing it just kind of exposed them where they were they were there and it wasn't you know super all the time it wasn't them seen by themselves but by interacting with the members of the choir they began to actually you know understand more about you know what a seventy Adventism you know what is Why is this church different and they really loved it and it's been in a way it's been in a ministry so I think it really is OK's by case where you use Amman and. I would be very reluctant to have somebody that is not a believer get up and give special music because it's the ministry of prayer in the word and that should be it's a way to communicate the message and that should be done. With believers as my sister mentioned here when it comes to a choir you've got a kind choir director and others that are picking what is the song what is the music what is the Ministry of the word and you're inviting other people to participate with you that's a little different. So we've always had a policy that you know we're uncomfortable inviting someone who is not a member or believer to be. Doing the Ministry of the word through music. Or. For those of you who want to write it down. Let me grab the quote here for you. I have two different references that you can take down the first one is the review and Herald September twenty seventh one thousand nine hundred two it might be easier to find its evangelism page five zero three Sorry five zero eight paragraph three so vandalism page five zero eight paragraph three and then the second one is the paragraph right after that evangelism five paragraph or so those are the two quotes that I was referring to is talking about singing without spirit and understanding and also singing done by those whose hearts are in the effort verses not in the effort. Yeah evangelism five zero eight paragraphs three and four. I think we have time for just one more question this is pertaining to try to combine several questions here this pertaining to the quality of our music as far as how well it is played how well it is shared. How important is the quality of our music and if it is important. How does one uphold a standard of excellence in music in the music setting for example how do you get people to rehearsals and practice and how do we do that project will you if it is important practice practice practice. One of a kind of mention this in mind really quick but as a church I would you know encourage your young people encourage people around you to take lessons to be involved you know as the quality of their own practice time improves you know the music in the church also improves and I've noticed it with myself I've noticed it with other people where the things I learn from my teacher my violin teacher I'm still taking lessons and I bring them into my church the church service and I can help other people you know kind of also raise the quality of the music and. Quality of music is super important I think we're representing Christ in our music if we're doing it for the right reasons and Christ is perfect it's. And we're not perfect they've got to remember that and nobody's perfect but I think. Our you know we should strive for that I really example this is there's a newly baptized member in our church back home and he wrote a song about his experience with our prophecy seminar that he was introduced to a church with and I remember hearing the song and I was personally I was I was very moved by the song and you would never. You would never catch me listen to the song in my car or anywhere like that but but to see him I have to doubt were one moment that he was absolute hundred percent sincere about what do you sing about was the was a quality great no it wasn't but and then we're going to get into that question you know is it just the heart no it's not just the heart but but the heart does have a huge part to play and this guy had written this song with that personal encounter with Jesus and it totally shone through in his playing in a singing. So. I agree with the other comments but I would also say that in reality if you have a church with fifty people in it you may not have any prodigies does that mean you have no music. And so you know some things that might not be special music in a larger church where you've got more talent and a bigger pool to choose from and you've got a little church you've got one poor person the plays a piano there so you to say Praise the Lord and let the hill make a joyful noise so you just you take what you have to work with and I thought I think it's also important that. Children be invited to come up and share they're not always going to be you know really gifted I think our church is really good and in Granite Bay that we let the children from time to time participate in the special music we don't expect you know it to be a concert performance quality but they know they're part of it and it just it raises everybody's desire to to do better so that they can participate. And are right that. It's time for outreach. Thank you all of you for your questions I apologize I did we don't we do not get to many of your questions if you want to come forward and ask us after now you're more than welcome to do so we'll stay as long as we can polish guys for that thank you Pastor doc for joining us this pleasure having you. Let us pray together let us pray together. Our Father we thank you we thank you that you are a God who sings and that you sing over us with joy we asked that you would be with us as we go from this place and we continue to try to better hear the heaven and the music of heaven and to draw our musical tastes and our musical offerings to you closer to the standard and the beauty of heavens music pray that this is our prayer we ask you to help us on our way Jesus' name amen. This message was recorded at the G Y C twenty seventeen conference arrives in Phoenix Arizona. G Y C supporting Ministry of the Seventh Day Adventist Church seeks to inspire young people to be bible based Christ centered and so when Christians to download or purchase other resources like this visit us online at W W W dot she Y.C. Web dot org.

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