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No Guts, No Glory: Using the Microbiome to Support Healing

Angeline David DrPHMHSRDN

Description

Objectives

1. Review the human-bacteria symbiosis.

2. Understand the role of the microbiome in the progression of disease. 

3. Explore lifestyle and environmental factors that modulate the human microbiome to support healing. 

 

The gut bateria work in intricate cooperation with the human body, affected by its environment, to contribute to either disease or healing. The work of salvation is no less an intricate and individualized process, one which must be understood by the true medical missionary. 

Presenter

Angeline David DrPHMHSRDN

Health Ministries Director for the North American Divison of SDA

Conference

Recorded

  • October 26, 2018
    4:00 PM
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The presentation today is on. The gut microbiome and as a little bit of background I am yes I have a doctorate in public health from Loma Linda and a master's in health sign in epidemiology from Johns Hopkins I'm also a registered dietitian and I spend a considerable about amount of my time in in research so research is really where I get a little bit excited and also nutrition so what we're going to talk about today is the micro biome I'm actually not going to go into the nutritional part of it very much this is sort of a primer kind of the feedback I got was you know kind of let us know what what the Says there's so much information out there so this is sort of a starting point about what the micro biome is what it entails and and how it can help us in our healing practices so Hippocrates said this Death sits in the bowels. Is that true. He also said bad digestion is the root of all evil now a very interesting what is he implying here that it has an effect on your health and perhaps your mortality and it has an effect on your emotional and mental state and perhaps even your spiritual state Ha interesting. So of course there's been a growing interest in the bio micro biome and this is just a quick look at publications from 1990 to 2009 which went from $100.00 plus publications to over $500.00 publications every year so. When I did a search on Pub Med on human gut microbiome I think there were over 26000 articles. So I didn't go through whole of them. But but we are going to share at least some of the information but we're going to start with the pop quiz kind of get a feel of where everybody is in their knowledge of the micro biome how many microbes are in the G.I. track is it 220000000000 anybody 500000000000. A few one trillion OK or a 100 trillion OK A lot of you are correct 100 trillion microbes in the microbes in the gut in the entire G.I. tract how many poing you always showed you the am star. How many pounds of bacteria are in the human gut half a pound 5 or 12. Yes And you know you there's a range 2 to 2 to 6 pounds of micro biome or gut of bacteria in the gut Now please tell your patients this is not a quick way to lose weight. OK you know trying to just get rid of all your micro biome is not the optimal weight loss program. So true or false there are 10000 times more microbes in one person's gut then all people on the earth. True 10000 times false 100000 times. 100000 times in one person's gut compared to all that are in the world micro biome genes outnumber the host genes by 10 True or False False most of you are false That's right so it's 100 to $200.00 times in terms of the genes in the micro biome verses in the host the micro biome is composed mostly of facultative and or robes strict and the robes or Arabs A.B.C. strict Is that what I'm hearing a a facultative it is actually strict and or robes. More than the the 2 combined the other 2 combined by up to 100 fold how many phyla have been found in the human gut 1535 file of bacteria that should be 5097 so I heard somebody say D. A large number Well you know it honestly we probably don't really know because there's a variety of what you find out there but what I saw is that it's around 50 however it's dominated by 2 phyla. There are the 2 or that are the predominant one and there are 502-1000. Of micro biome of micro micro of bacteria in the gut. And when was the 1st dual transplant 17000 years ago in China 958 in post-op patients in Denver or on Grey's Anatomy. A.V.C. be a nobody saying see you OK it was China 7800 years ago in China OK Here's some quick facts so with your G.I. tract the number of bacteria that are in the tracked per content of what's in there OK this is what this is identifying so in the stomach we're starting at about 10 to maybe $100.00 bacteria per gram of content and as you go down there's an exponential increase so in the Colin you're at 10 to the 12th power of micro biome per gram of content so so this is one of the the features you want to look for is that this increasing number of bacteria in fins delivered through C. section show a reduced microbial numbers in the 1st month after birth. C section but those difference don't remain after about 6 months so something to keep in mind during those very early. Time of the child's life the infants got microbiota correlates with shifts in feedings so as you change the feeding process the gut bacteria is also going to change that makes sense. So factors in that change there are both internal and external factors that affect that change external factors include include the maternal micro biome the feeding habits as we just saw the type of food eaten and now as a dietitian that's where I like to get excited so the type of food eaten the microbial load of the environment that makes sense and dietary and temperature related stresses OK So dietary stress is a certainly something that we can work on that we can actually help by educating and providing the family with an important. Information of how to feed their children now internal and there's a longer list but this is these are some of the things that affect the internal or these are some of the internal factors that affect the micro biome changing over time intestinal intestinal ph and we'll see later on that badge and all ph is really important microbial interactions the communication between the in the different species that are in in your gut the environmental temperature physiological factors of the digestive process host to creation immune response and of course we know about drug therapy how that affects the micro biome So what is normal what is what should we expect to see well. Do we know anyone who's normal. So this is sort of a summary here of the types of bacteria that are located in the different regions of the gut so when you're looking at different regions you want to find the predominance of different micro brought microbes. Microbial cells. So we're going to look at that a little bit more closely here is another way to look at it another graph again showing the different parts of the body including the skin. The mouth your can now and what are the different relative amount so Here's a graph or a picture just to to let us for remind us that different parts of the skin are different right it's almost like a different region or landscape of the earth so we want to keep that in mind as well as we're looking at our patients so here's a research study that was published just very recently and they looked at the the details of what kind of micro biome biomes are in the different regions of the gut and of actually the the body and so they had 129 males 113 females in a very narrow age range right $20.00 to $40.00 so these are the young adults basically everybody in this room. Wow shocked OK All right so they took they took samples from 9 oral cavity and Aura pharynx regions for skin samples one nasal one from the G.I. a self collected stool 3 vagal on the women and they also did a another measurement later on on $130.00 of the of the individuals so they wanted to see how stable are their micro biome over time so this is their results on diversity so let's see if we can I'm sure you can see this although in the back. The 1st column here is that we're looking up the nasal and then we're looking at the skin and then this section is the oral cavity stool right here and then the vagina so the number in abundance distribution of distinct types of organisms within a given body habitat so in those different regions there are different abundance and diversity so if you look at here the Vadra nl ones right here and let's just look at the top graph the Vadra ones they were very simple. In that not as much diversity not as many different phenotypes and so forth but in the oral and stool this area those were the most diverse so I suppose that should be expected right. And then if you look at this is the diversity of samples from the same habitat across individuals. That make sense diversity between samples from the same habitat is small so my. My oral cavity bacteria should be fairly similar to yours but your oral bacteria should be very different from your. Colon bacteria does that make sense that clear OK here's another graph the patterns of variation followed followed the habitat group again at the top clusters so we could see very clear clusters of the types of bacteria in those different regions of the body and uniqueness of the individuals micro biota appears to be stable over time so they they looked at the follow up about 3 months or 2 or 3 months later and they saw that their bacteria was fairly consistent over time host phenotype there were some interesting correlations that they found looking at characteristics of the host and how that affected the micro biota So ethnicity and vagal ph they found were the strongest associations in this particular study so other things such as body weight body mass index gender temperature those were smaller correlations not necessarily very significant and I like this they recommended they didn't look at some other form Porton factors that they said really should be done including short and long term diet. Daily cycles the mode of delivery so where they Vachon all are Syrian and of course the host genetics so a lot more research really does need to be done a lot has been done but there's still still a lot that we don't know now so I wanted to know OK That study was done within a U.S. population what about other countries is there variation across population groups I know many of you travel overseas. And do work in other areas so let's see this research study was also published this was in 2017 now this beautiful graph gives us a number of bits of information which you probably can't see the colors represent the level of urbanization now you know some of these countries there's only been one research study that they looked at so this is basically a review in some of them they've had several research studies to look at. So Green is less urbanization and as you get to the yellows oranges and reds it's a higher degree of urbanization and the colors of the boxes represent where the bacteria came from in that particular research study but we're not necessarily going to look at that So these are some of the things that they found regarding the subsistence pattern so are they agrarian. Or are they were very westernized and they were able to identify 3 primary levels so a remote hunter gatherer type of population the traditional farming fishing population and also that Western are U.S. predominantly urban population and one of the major things that they found was that there was a decrease in microbial diversity as you became more urbanized So the diversity within the gut. Was less as you became more technology technologically advanced so they suggested that a lot of this is attributed to the diet So for example the hunter gatherer the type of micro biome bacteria that were predominant were the prevalent ones were the ones that break down complex carbohydrates fibers so they needed to to have more of those because much of their diet is more plant based however as you get more urbanized your food becomes more and more urbanized as well more refined more sugars simple sugars and so they found that that the type of bacteria more prevalent in those areas were more related to processing those simple sugars and very interesting lead they also see it found that the mode of subsistence so that that farming how they got their food was more important than ethnicity. So there's a lot of diversity in the micro biome How then can we look at the disease states now this is of course a very still a very brand new area and there's still a lot of information that we don't know but we do have some really great research out there and let me give you an overview so here are some of the areas where they are finding that the micro biome does indeed affect disease state so starting at the top is gut brain OK linking the gut and brain we're going to look at this a little bit more closely so there's a quite a bit of research on autism and the micro biota there in mood disorders depression and anxiety there's quite a bit there's well as Ma and and inflammatory diseases also there's hypertension and a scheme of heart disease they're finding micro biome are involved in that as well peripheral vascular disease and they're thinking that that's a result of the metabolic syndrome which changes the lip ID metabolism and that is related to micro biome composition as well colon cancer. Colon cancer diets high in red meat and animal fat we know is associated with colon cancer as well and so if we kind of correlate with the previous research of the agrarian studies or populations that are more plant based and have fewer incidents of colon cancer so so there's a number of things here they also indicate low vitamin absorption in that population. Billy ery diseased altered Xeno biopic and drug metabolism. And obesity and the metabolic syndrome so there's a lot that can be said about these. But we're only going to hit a couple of them so this is just a quick fast fact about the human micro biome What does the micro biome have to do with health well it's essential for human development for immunity for nutrition there are a number of other things that you could add to that list the bacteria living in us and on us are not invaders but beneficial colonizers Now there's a lot of evolutionary perspective in the research of course I think we can expect that but but the information that they're sharing about that the research is showing about the relationship of the micro biome to the host is really really very elegant and very interesting now what the this group this is from the University of Washington what they are proposing is that disease causing microbes accumulate over time they change gene activity they change metabolic processes. They resist result in an abnormal immune response. And against the substances and tissues that are normally present in the body. And also interesting Lee a lot of autumn unit diseases that are seeming to be linked as well these. They make interesting statement they appear to be passed in families not by D.N.A. but by inheriting the family's micro biome and we do know that a child's microbe OIC biome is very similar to the mother's micro biome. The colonization begins at birth in the birth canal. Of course it changes over time do you the very many many factors that affect your micro biome but but it's still there's a lot of similarity among family those who you live with you're going to have very similar micro biome composition but some people say that your micro biome is as individual as your fingerprint so you are also very unique every single one of you and I have to wonder does God know every bacteria in here of a hobby if you count the hairs on your head those you know every microbial fell that's in you in on you so we're just going to look at a couple of these conditions very briefly obesity. Very interesting Lee Let's go to the picture over here these are some of the effects that we see in obese people in the micro biota the altered composition of the micro biome leading to altered fermentation as well and also increased energy harvest. That's definitely a bad combination right if you're trying to lose weight so what does that do to you in the brain. It decreases satiety when your micro biome is altered so for individuals who are struggling with their weight and who are hungry all the time maybe we need to check and see what their micro biome looks like and maybe we need to find a way to help them achieve that so tidy and one of the best things to do that is fiber so with the liver it increases short chain fatty acids it also increases inflammation so there's a correlation with the micro biome affecting that. In the fat tissue it increases triglyceride in corporations so again more storage of the triglycerides and also increases inflammation and in the muscle it decreases fatty acid oxidation and in the epic Billiam increases permit permeability So all of these factors are really adding up to give that individual a very difficult time in getting to their their ideal or even just a better body weight so obesity has been shown to be associated with a poor combination of microbes in the gut so what's outside of that normal spectrum by the way that previous research study that looked at the quote unquote normal thing. They did exclude people who had numerous conditions and health problems and they tested their micro biome to Timmy to make sure that it was sort of the normal flora. Also we find very interesting Lee that the gut microbiome is different between obese and lean twins so twins tend to have even a more common microbiome composition than a child and mother twins are even more common but when we're looking at difference between obese and 20 and lean twins there is a difference in their composition and the obese twin they have lower diversity of bacteria and that appears to be one of the primary factors in a lot of these diseases is just that lower diversity again reflecting back to that agricultural culture where there's a higher diversity and so maybe some things we can learn and apply here the twin also has a higher level of enzymes and all of this combined leads to that they are more efficient in digesting food and gathering those calories so of course that is going to contribute to continued weight gain and certainly prevent weight loss here's a publication. Looking at discordant twins so an obese and a lean twin now with this research study they only had 4 pairs so it's a small sample but good information for us to get started. And this was in Missouri adolescent females so fecal samples from each twin. Was introduced into mice. I believe it was introduced orally and these were germ free mice the the mice were fed a low fat diet. That was high in plant polysaccharide so considerably a healthy diet and what they found is that when the micro biome from the lean twin when it was inserted in the mouse the mouse lost weight. Now on that same diet when the micro biome from the obese twin was inserted into the mouse the mouse gained weight no changes in diet no changes in physical activity no changes in anything else simply the micro biome again a small study again looking at animal models but a very perky provocative finding and in fact here's another case study case report of a 32 year old woman who had fecal transplant and she gained 40 pounds after the fecal transplant 40 pounds her B.M.I. went from 26 so just slightly overweight to 33 and she was not able to lose the weight Well it turns out that her donor was her daughter who was obese so their Micra by oughta again to begin with was probably fairly similar except that one was lean and the other was obese. And we found that mom to con the daughter's bacteria and then gained 40 pounds so what does that mean for us when we are trying to to reach and minister to the obese population. You know. I worked on Guam for a couple of years as the dietician at the Venice clinic loved it loved it the people there are just beautiful people but a really big issue with obesity and you know we we taught them the healthy lifestyle and they were happy to do it when they could and we had some wonderful success stories but there were a lot of people who were not able to lose the weight and I wonder if we have been missing something Have we been Vic missing something that's very very person all and integral to each one of us so the other condition I want to look at is the gut brain axis so the vegas nerve we know provides the connection between the brain and the gut and in fact it's the vegas nerve divides up into 3 branches that intersect at 3 different areas of the gut. At the micro biome influences the central nervous system in response by modulating the hype without will make pituitary adrenal axis it also modulators the immune system neurotransmitter pathways and growth factors so there's a lot of interaction you know the gut is directly connected to the brain and the micro biome affects the quality of the gut so wouldn't it make sense that that would then have affects on the brain as well. So we have we have found behavioral and cognitive alterations in individuals were there they seem to be evidence that this is linked to. Some of the hormones nor epinephrine brain device derived neurotrophic factored Open mean there's also indication of of. Adequate or inadequate performance on learning and memory based on the composition of your micro biome and that also modulating the limbic system including the big Dilla and the hypothalamus So some some direct correlations that we're finding and emotional stress impacts the gut microbiome composition as well so how how do we help people with their stress management how do we help them in dealing with situations that seem almost impossible for them to get out of how do we help them with family stressors with financial stressors are really really looking at them from a truly holistic and whole some perspective and looking at those other extra and all factors that could be causing these downstream effects so what else does it do. In some of the neuro psychiatric disorders including depression schizophrenia anxiety autism there appear to be gut microbes micro biome changes in individuals who have those conditions versus those who don't there's also I found this interesting an individual level social interaction. That has been linked with micro biome composition so if you are in a good healthy relationship with someone. There could be an effect on your micro biome. Again we are not no man is an island right and it affects our inner early life disruption of the microbial gut brain axis is associated with later life neuro psych disorders including depression. And appetite regulation is modulating by molecules that are that are produced by got my crew organisms we saw that earlier and there's a link between the micro biome composition and neuro development that has been proposed at least. Including functional changes in actual brain regions related to that so these effects really are very far reaching and really seem to affect some very important and key areas of the brain. So what about probiotics is there any help with probiotics. Or is it just another way for. For commerce so we have seen some associated nerve physiological changes with probiotics and it seems to include the B.D.N.F. the dopamine neurons in effen cortico trophy in releasing factor So again kind of seems to be reversing some of those despite disk disordered responses and. And molecule production they've also found that using the infantile. Has been associated with an improved H.P.A. axis. In response to stress now that's animal model and also in other animal models lactobacilli M for a month administered for a month is enough to modulating the neural net gene expression just after a month and that affects behavior as well in those animals so there are many many different factors that influence the gut micro biome numerous factors now if you look at the used diet the womb mode of delivery just stationed all age at birth genetics environment and antibiotics how many of those are modifiable not all you didn't choose how you were born but you can modify your diet your environment and at least to some extent and what about the types of food that we eat that may have an overabundance of antibiotics in them so. And all of that what it comes down to the the harmony or the disharmony of what is happening inside your gut can then contribute to either health or disease so. You know. It is important. To reflect I believe on how what does this teach us about who God is and what God calls us to be there are spiritual lessons to be learned in nature perhaps even our micro biome So I want to share a story to start with. How many of you know how to ride a bike. All right and you've known how to write a bike since you were about 6 years old 7 years old yeah a number of you great and I'm not talking about that bike necessarily you know just the regular one yeah just the pedal right yeah so I I I am very unique in that I did not learn how to write a bike when I was a child I was the one who fell off the 1st time and never got back on but you know it's always been on my list to do to ride a bike and when I was a student at Loma Linda there were a couple times we're friends and I went to the beach and we rode on the beach and the 1st time my very good friend allowed me to ride tandem with her. And the next time I was able to go on my own but then I tried again and it didn't work it didn't work I was by myself that time and I couldn't get couldn't even get on one so just a few months ago maybe a couple months ago oh it was the hottest hottest day of the summer I think in Maryland and some friends and I had been talking about going for a bike ride now the organizer who happens to be sitting right here. Knew that I couldn't ride a bike and so the plan was to go to a very easy place. Not you know just a straight road no traffic around you not to many people very easy gentle and so they were going to help me learn how to ride a bike. So here we are at the start here's our little group 6 of us where you know I had the right equipment the helmet I thought I needed knee pads and elbow pads and you know like those spacesuits but apparently not. So we got onto our bikes and again so I they were very patient and they let me right around the parking lot a few times just to get the hang of it but then we had to get on the road and this was the road just a little bike path and it was pretty much like this the entire way so very easy very simple something that a beginner could do and as we went along the thought struck me why was it that when I was alone I couldn't ride that bike but why was it when I was here with these group of friends who were so embrace thing of my dysfunction. My inability to ride and so encouraging and that with their support their guidance and even at times driving off in front of me and letting me struggle on my own but knowing that they were going to circle back at some point in check on me. That I was able to get and ride that bike and I accomplished 10 miles roundtrip so not too bad right for your 1st solo ride well of course some of them did 20 miles but you know but still and it just couldn't escape me the fact that it was because I was with the right people. I was in the right community and similarly when our micro biome get mixed in in the wrong communities it can lead to disease and when we get mixed in in the wrong communities there's a lot of damage that happens to us too is in there it's so important here we are at the end still smiling. Like saying it was a terribly hot day but we made it and we made it together it's really important I think we understand the role of being together the role of supporting one another the role of being very unique having our own fingerprints and yet making the very conscious decision we're going to do this together Christ gave us this promise in Matthew 24 in the midst of him talking about all of the terrible things that are going to happen to us before the end of the world he gives us this promise and this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness on to all nations and then shall the end come you see I was in a very small group there that day that I succeeded in the bike ride but Christ was telling us that's wonderful when in your small community you are successful but he's saying to us but there's a world out there there's a world out there there's a world to our micro biome it's incredibly unique and beautiful and yet it ties us all together in certain ways there's a world out there. There's a type of communication that they've recently discovered that bacteria have it's called Quorum sensing this is the communication between bacteria and it's the process it involves a process of biosynthesis that tell nearby bacteria to recognise each other and to actually clump together in a community it's like a call to unite a call to come together and they are finding that bacteria and other single cell organisms have the ability to transmit signals to others in their community for the purpose of achieving their goals for the purpose of achieving their goals the call to come together so communication. How important is our communication within our community. Within our church are we communicating only to tell people what we want them to do are we communicating to learn how to understand each other it's by coming together that we can actually help facilitate change in people I would not have been able to ride that bike if I did not have a community coming to support me there's importance in the strength of the communication but also important is what is the effect of that communication what are the words and the body language saying how what is being transmitted to that to the others. Is it like the bacteria coming together because we are going to overcome these antibiotics that are attacking us and we are going to damage whatever it is is that harmful or is it hurtful what does our communication actually accomplish and I think that's equally as important as actually having a strong communication. When when I started my ministry in Loma Linda when I was there as a student as Norman mentioned I was really really struggling. With that with that call and as I was reading the spirit of prophecy I came to a passage that just resonated so strongly with me and it really became the theme and what I wanted to accomplish in my ministry and I'm still still trying to accomplish this is in selected messages volume one and she says this I was Invision taken to heaven and the angel said to me Look I look to the world as it was in dense darkness the agony that came over me was indescribable as I saw this darkness do we see darkness in this world. Immense immeasurable darkness in the world she goes on again the word came from the angel lookee And again I looked intensely over the world and as I began to see jets of light like stars dotted all through this darkness and then I saw another and another added light and so all through this moral darkness the star like lights were increasing the angels said these are they that believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and are obeying the words of Christ these are the light of the world I saw then these little jets of light growing bigger brighter shining forth from the east in the West from the north from the south until it encompass the entire world isn't that a beautiful picture of what Cor I'm sensing could do in us but very importantly she ends with this I saw that the rays of light came directly from Jesus to form these precious jets of light in the world so as complex as our micro biome is how much more complex are we. How much more difficult to get our decide by Arctic state into a state where we are aligned with the Lord Jesus Christ and where we can take his Gospel to the entire world says it's going to happen and it needs to happen with each one of us so the message that I want to end with is pressed together human micro biome unite. The world is filled with darkness and the Lord is calling us to come together so we can bring light to the world thank you. Thank you. OK So the question was with the depression affecting or being affected my by the micro biome was that related to the drugs that were being taken and actually in that study they didn't really specify There have been several different studies that have looked at. The micro biome and and depressions so I can't give you a direct answer for that yes. OK fecal transplant Yeah. Yeah right yes so it is taking it taking the few cold matter from one human being purifying it you know breaking it down to a safe I guess you know state and actually implanting it in the person putting it it is growing. It is growing Yes. Right and so the question is you know what do you see when you change the diet for example that one research that looked at the geographic variation of how in an agrarian society which was mostly plant based that they had hired microbial diversity and lower incidence of the chronic conditions that the urban populations tend to face so so yes there is a bit of chicken and egg but I think the point is that we can modify. The micro biome by changing the diet so for a patient who does have certain health conditions then changing that diet again yes I think oh yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Sure increasing that diversity increasing the microbial diversity by by facilitating that diet change yes certainly that's. Something I think is important to take away and to consider. Yes. Yeah I did not look at the Autism Research very closely so she's asking are there certain strains that are better for autistic children and so. I can't give you the answer yet. Are the slides available. Yes yes if you give me your ear you can send me an e-mail right here help at any org And I can send you the slides along with the actual reference list as well yes. Yeah. The best way Wow I mean. I I am not very familiar with if there are any medicated ways if you're looking at the fastest way but we can look at probiotics introducing that but you know let's not forget the importance of prebiotics which are the digestible fibers. So the whole foods really that help to support the life of the probiotics as well so so the good news is that the micro biome can change it would be interesting and I haven't seen this but it would be interesting to see how long does it take especially after a course of antibiotics How long would it take. Absolutely yeah bacteria have a sexual reproduction so they multiply very very quickly. OK. There hasn't been a recommendation coming out from any of the. Licensing boards or societies. Yes that's a good question. The question was how do. The sprays on on plant foods how does that affect the vegetarians micro biome men and they're actually I didn't find any research that looked at that this is still a very young field they're still trying to figure out what's normal Actually they're still trying to figure out what what are micro biome really should be so there are so many questions that are left to be answered yes Millet. Difference between cultured and fermented foods. There are different. Bacteria that are used for the different process sees that get better use so I So that's going to be my general answer so there are there are you can expect to probably have some differences in effect probably but. There is. Yeah we need to do more research in that too. There's a lot of. I don't want to say anecdotal evidence and use of the culture in fermented foods there's there's a fair amount of research as well but but we do know that depending on what species you used that can affect. The results and there could be some individual variation in that too because our own bacteria are very aged you know so yes. Yeah that's. That has anybody actually seen research on that or seen case studies you have where they've done that of course with animal models you know we have seen that I haven't seen with human but yeah. Yeah yeah seems to work with animals I don't know for added time at this point but lots of questions keep asking keep thinking and maybe someday we'll do a part to get more advanced but thank you for being with us and busting is on the rest today this media was brought to you by audio 1st a website dedicated to spreading God's word through free sermon audio and much more if you would like to know more about audio for us if you would like to listen to more sort of lead to visit W W W audio verse or.

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