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03 Toleration, Liberty, and Personal Freedom

Eugene Prewitt

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Eugene Prewitt

Director, The Institute of East Asia Training (IEAT)

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  • June 24, 2021
    3:30 PM
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In you are about to enjoy a presentation recorded at the 2021 michigan conference camp meeting held at cedar lake michigan. We pray that the Lord will bless you as you listen to Our father and heaven. I'm asking that you'll bless the session by give me ideas of what to say and what to leave unsaid. Fill us with your spirit, according to your own plan. I ask in the name of jesus a man. So we're not done with romans. Chapter 14. We need to, we're still working on it. And while I was here because you know where we left off, I was talking about the passover, how that was adult for issue in the 1st century. And I've, you've been adding to some of you long enough to know it's still a doubtful issue in the century. And I welcome back. You're not really late. It just has 30 right now. I just started 30 seconds early. So don't feel ashamed. Paul talked about the passover in such a way as to help us to be tolerant with each other. So someone came up during the inter and they're in the 10 minutes we just passed. And I said, well, what about people who are saying we need to keep the fees to day? I think probably more probably one or 2 of you would be in that group from a size from group the size, probably one or 2 of you would be in that group. And I think romans, 14 vers wine gives us a great guideline. What it says is received those that have these doubtful disputation, but not to the point of disputing received those of a week conference, but not to the point of arguing. What paul would say is that you and I can disagree about whether you need to keep the passover. But as soon as you make that the present truth, you don't fit in the church anymore. Because the church has a commission of what to take to the world. It's the 3 angels messages. It's the message for this time. And as soon as you make it something else than you've just interfered with, what needs to get done. So I don't have any trouble at all with you believing that you should keep the feast even trying to convince me that it's good to keep the feast. I don't even mind if you convince other people it's good to keep the feast. But as soon as you say it's required, as soon as you want to teach that's required when the church is saying it's not required, suddenly you're making this issue. And that's just but verse one says should not be permitted. Verse one says that if you want to make an issue that isn't an issue in your church, you need to start your own group. You make your own group, you're determined for your group. What the negotiable are in the non negotiable are like that. Now I don't mean by this that the church always gets it right about what is and is not negotiable. I don't mean this. Maybe I should give the example. I think I need to write some things on the board and I'll do it as I'm talking. Your pioneers, by the pioneers and in this sentence, has just a fancy word admonish use for the ad, vanessa between the 18 thirty's and the 18 seventy's. Those people when, when things were getting together. And I say pioneers, i don't mean they're more special than you. I just mean they're a lot older, right. At that period of time, the pioneers were the ones that formulated a lot of the things that we teach today. They came out of many different churches and they came together on a group of teachings. But those, those pioneers, many of them came from an organization called the christian connection. The christian connection was a denomination that was a localized nomination and massachusetts that had a very interesting set of beliefs that attracted a lot of bible believe in people. They were non creedal. What does that mean? That is the bible was their creed. They didn't have another creed that you have to, you know, say this is what I believe, blah, blah, blah. And now you can be a methodist. It wasn't like that. They didn't have a creed, but they did it at generally not accept the idea of the trinity. Generally, the christian connection did not believe in the trinity because they found it wasn't in the bible. It was a real simple idea for them. If you don't have a creed, accept the bible, then the trinity really can't be part of your creed. At least the word can't, that makes sense to anyone what I'm saying. That's not there. And their position on the god here I was that there is god the father and there's the sun and there is the spirit. But I thought they probably did not think of it in any way, like the catholics would say at that time, the catholics when they would teach about these 3, sometimes nor art, right. They almost picture it as like one head with 3 faces. There are some artworks at the sun. Some sculptures made like this. The theologians talk saying some things that it's hard to even like the you can say the ideas, but it doesn't mean you understand them. They teach that the son is eternally being born from the father. Not that it was done in the past or not to be done the future. Not that it's happening now, but it's all the same time forever. So that there never was a time in the son wasn't will never be a time when he isn't. But he has always been born. I think that whether you believe that or not, you really don't. Because I mean, if part of belief is comprehension, i think you can't comprehend that idea sufficiently to believe it. We just and then they would say that the spirit is eternally emanating from the father and the son. So that sense it's always happening in one sense. They are one But in another sense they are 3 And the christian connection when they viewed that viewed that is just a bunch of theological nonsense. Like you can't find any of that idea in the bible. It's just talk, it's air, and where's it coming from? So they didn't tend to believe it, and some of the people that came into our faith from out of that groups included james white And included your riah smith And I, and you know what these men have in common? They are 2 of the primary editors of I, primary church paper for decades. So other people that came into advent isn't like william miller. He was a trinitarian, william miller. He was a baptist and, and there are others that were. And when the adventist came together, one of the things they agreed on was the sabbath. Eventually, one of the things they agreed on was the investigative judgment eventually. But they never even tried. At least it looks like to me. They never even tried to agree on the issue of the godhead. They just done it. And when you look at what our non trinitarian, pioneers wrote on the topic, they wrote, i made a list of 7 of them, including jan andrews and last borough. And. And I'm not room the other ones in the list right now. Private come to me. I j. H. Wagner as opposed to his son, that's more famous. And a few, when I made a list of the sudden I found that they made 50 different books. Lots of books on the 10 commandments on the mortality, the soul. An american prophecy on the anti christ, on the seal of god, lots of books, 0 books on the issue of the godhead. What's going on there is that you have non trinitarian views, but those views are not considered to be that message for this time. They're not the message to take to the world. A course advantage to North America were reaching out to the christians in North America, which were largely trinitarian. So here you have non trinitarian, james white, reaching out to trinitarians around the world. And he's not even trying to persuade them of his view of the sign. That's not part of his mission. And what if some of you are anti trinitarians to day, but I'd say to you is, I wish you'd imitate our pioneers. I wish you'd see that what should unite us should be the mission. That when we have a mission and I don't really want to change this into a lecture on the issue of trinitarian as I certainly could. I don't want to do that. It's not really my topic for the day. I will say the, I am all for in our church, softening our, our 28 funded mental beliefs on the issue of the godhead. I'm for softening those. What you say, what do you mean, softening? I mean, we have formulated those not for the sake of, of been the most biblical, we can be. But for looking the bass to the creedal churches. When you look at the creedal churches, they all start with those doctrines that we're starting with. They do it in the same way we do it just just like that 123. And I think if we saw offend those 2, allow for people who think like james white and your I A smith, it really wouldn't hurt us at all. Like let me tell you about how I think I am sure that jesus has eternally existed. But I'm not sure whether or not he's eternally been known as the son. I don't really know that I am sure that the spirit is going to exist for eternity. I'm not, I think probably the spirit has always existed, but I'm not sure. I think probably I might even say most likely, but no profit ever said anything like that. There isn't any statement about it. I don't think that as a church, we want to demand that we harmonize on ideas that are not based on plain statements, a profits. As soon as we, as soon as we try to force harmony on something that isn't plainly stated, we can put a stake in between people who are both conscientious students who come to different conclusions. So jesus, in the new testament, ah, says he blows on people and says receive my spirit And and roman say the spirit is called the spirit of the spirit of jesus in the spirit of god in romance age and find both phrases there. So I have a friend, i have more than one of these really who when I eugene, when I read those verses, i read it like this that the spirit is so similar to jesus. That when the I can say that jesus is in my heart when I really mean the spirit is in my heart, that it's about the same sign. When we say into my heart, lord jesus, what we really mean is we want the spirit to be in our hearts. That's what we really mean because jesus is in heaven, right? Isn't the most holy place. They are so similar that we even talked that way. And I think that if I talked that way and you talked that way, then if ellen white says about the spirit, the spirit is jesus. I just, I just think that just means what I mean. It just means that when we say that jesus is in our heart, we mean the spirit. I tell, i understand it. But I have a friend that when he reads that, he reads it to be just what it says. Do you know that in the reformation time, this was a very similar type of situation that split zwingli and loser That luther read? This is my body. So he believed that jesus was with the bread that we eat. Communion, zwingli, sad luther. When john the baptist said, behold the lamb of god, he did not mean it was a 4 footed animal. He was making a metaphor. They couldn't agree on this. And because they couldn't agree on it when his, when we put his hand to shake hands, luther, luther wouldn't shake his hand. And then when we burst into tears, because it was so important to him, to have harmony in the church. And not made luther feel bad. He said, we can't shake hands his brothers, but we can shake hands as any said something else. And he tried to fix it, but that didn't really work. You know, when that happened, the common people of germany and france really viewed themselves as one movement of bible believing people. But a clear logins where differing on some minor points. But if you are trying to decide whether you're going to be catholic or rick the state, that little difference or the communion brad, just as it seemed to you, like, you know, like, it's not worth a split cleaner. So I'm trying to say it's not worth a split, but if you're luther's wing lee, what you feel like is truth is truth and we can't compromise on it. We have to and so these guys couldn't agree. And what I'm trying to say to you is that romans 14 could have been helpful to them. Maybe more helpful to luther. I think when we saw it, as wiggly would have been content for luther to have luther's idea. It was luther that wasn't content for swing, that have linguist idea it could have been helpful to luther and a similar way. Just 200 years later, george whitfield and John wesley, they were, they disagreed on something very fundamental. Not as whether or not free will exist. George woodfield and John wesley. Wesley certainly believed it existed. It was obvious to him as the day cuz you can see people making decisions with field believe that you asked for making decisions, but god has for a day that is as clear as crystal on the bible. That's not to him that runs or tell him that it's god that you know romans 9. These guys could not agree on this. But when they got together, they realized that what they both agreed on is that people need to repent of their sans and changed their life. If they're going to go to heaven, they need to be appealed to and preach to and helped. And they decided to put their differences apart and to be friends and co workers, even though they disagreed on this most fundamental issue of the ology. And they went and, you know, in the great controversy that story is there. I remember you read about whitfield and leslie it's they are just like that. It says as they learn charity in the school of christ, they learn to put their differences apart. And what I'm saying to you is romans 14 was designed for that. It was designed to help us know that we don't have to fight over everything. Yeah, so you get again what the issue when the free. Well, that is the question about whether you really somehow can decide yourself or whether or not god had decided ahead of time. But I think whitfield had a soft idea of calvinism and even he would say that you need to be born again and you need to be converted and, and turn from your sans and to him, it was more of a see a logical fact that it's up there, but we really don't need to think about it. It's not really what's going on in our personal experience. Even even william miller encountered both of these and he tried to bring peace between them. He said as like, you're on a boat that sinkin and one person as wonders if he has the right rope and other ones afraid is going to let go of it. That is there. They both know they need to get out of the water. And really, why should they fight over this issue right now? Maybe that don't make any sense to you, but I, I'm, I'm not gonna try draw a picture of it. I'm saying that in romans 14, god has shown us that it really isn't essential that we argue about everything that we disagree about. So why don't you tell me what are some things that that are arguing about in your local church? What's going on in your local church or do you live in Michigan? Yeah, yeah, that's so interesting. Okay, well, anything else? Hello, argue about your local church. OK, so forensic justification and you live in Michigan. Ok. OK, so whether or not you can go out to eat or whether or not you can cook the food. Yeah. Did they conclude the answer to that yet? Didn't want to come in every one of those 3. Listen, you were raising your hand back there. When you Ok, your parents or all the seen it through them or so I want to talk about each of these issues we brought up. Let me just take 2 more hands and a stop or I'll never have time to talk about them all. What's when you're thinking we started having problems, we weren't having sharing time during our Time, showing it and not not bringing their share with anyone. So they're trying to get her on food. Avoid that gain infection spread. No, they're not ringing. And it's coming in the evening. I do not bring sam hadn't announced me seeing that you can eat if you're going to bring food to eat. Ok. So you start off, I understand and then or you had one ok. Music styles. So I like these examples. I think you're going to, I think you will go to sleep or we talk about these. Right. I think that just will have like, no problem with it. So I think what she needs is a nap and I don't mind if you go to sleep. I think this time is going to let it happen. I'm just going to just let it go. Let's talk a bit about women's ordination because I was on task. You know, the theology of ordination study committee. And that was a life changing experience for me and ways that have nothing to do with ordination that just really lowered my my how much I value to theologians in the world are really, really reduced it. And it even happened. They are that a friend of mine, gerard dom stick, was reading a lot of papers and against women's ordination that was his position. He was reading a lot of them. And I was also in that position in that committee. And I someone complained that who's reading too many papers. So he came to me one day and asked me to read one of his papers. At my age now I would say that's not a good idea, but I was younger then I said, sure. And I, it's a bit like fighting in someone else's armor. And so I got up there and the way it works at this, at this meeting, as you read the paper and then people can ask questions from the floor. You know the line up mike's nick and ask questions. So I was reading this paper and while I was reading, i realize i'm one 3rd done and my time is way more than half done. That means i'm not going to finish the paper in the allotted time. So I decided i'd read the paper twice the night before I and I knew basically the content. And it felt so weird trying to read any way, especially to a hostile audience. Know something about when your audience likes you, it's much easier to talk to them. But in this audience, for a lot of people who don't like me and so it's harder. And I decided just to put the paper down and wing it. Well, when I did that, gerard's ideas, a lot of them were sad, but a few of mine leaked in You understand the same. And one of my ideas wise that if you take a baptist boy who loves jesus and a methodist boy who loves jesus and a catholic boy who loves jesus and a pen. Acosta boy who loves jesus and an adamant boy who loves jesus. And they all studies theology until they have one or 2 ph. D. 's. What you're gonna find is the baptist to a baptist. The methodist is still a methodist, the catholic are still a catholic, a couple castile and the address may not be an administer. And what's going to go on there is that 12 years of the article study is going to bring them not one iota closer to the present truth. I said it will make a difference. If you give me these boys, i can help them all become adventist with these men. I can't do anything. I said the theological studies do not bring you closer to the truth. I said that to a 100 theologians, the So you can ask me privately how it went after the meeting. But what, what happened there at task is we, there were a group of people, mark finley was one of them, and other names who is the most prominent among them that decided on what was called the 3rd way. And their view was that this is a religious liberty issue. They were saying that like if I were to pretend to be marked friendly, no, that's kind of silly. So let me say something different. If I pretend to be someone that was in that 3rd way group, i am a talked to like, and then I'm going to say that I personally am opposed to it, ordaining women to the gospel ministry. Personally, I think it's not the local, but I think that we ought to allow people who think it is biblical to do it for the same reason that god allowed israel to have a king when it wasn't a good idea. If all the logical, this idea, that's the logic of the 3rd way. Now let me tell you why I disagreed with it. I can have a conviction for me and you can have a conviction for you. But I can't have a conviction for you. You can't have a conviction for me. That's the limits i talked about with heidi and I at that I stand in the judgement for me, you stand for you. In the same sense. The church can't really have a conviction for me. The church can't be convicted that I should do something, but the church can have a conviction for itself. I can't have a conviction for the church. The church has a conviction for itself. Let's go back there to the story of king saw. Israel decided they wanted a king, that's what they decided. So if they do decide they want to king that you know what they should do, they should get a king. But we, as a church archer, to cited not to our deign women to the gospel ministry than as a church. The church has a conviction for itself. So the church itself should do what it's convicted to do. And you can't have a conviction that should do something different. I can have an idea what the church should do. You can have idea what the church should do, but we aren't the church. All in the church can have a conviction for itself. If that didn't make any sense to you at all, and I wish you were here last time. And if you weren't still don't make any sense. I don't know what to do. I'm a say one more time and move on. Liberty is a huge issue inside the church. In North America, we understand a little better than many places because of self supporting work. That is, it's pretty well understood in North America that you don't need permission if you want to go start a ministry in your town. If you want to go start, you know, some sort of welfare ministry or other ministry or do bible work. You don't need permission from the pastor for that and I think a lot of you are pastors and I think if your members decide to do ministry or kind of make you happy. Right. When that kind of credit you'd be kind of pleased, they want to do it. And I, but when I went to malaysia, one of my favorite parts of ministry in North America is younger. Typo camp. I just love you on the cycle camp. I have seen people converted their become mission minded, they are, if you nor heard of it. Eunice asked me later. It's just a great place for children to be my wife and I have been there every summer since we got married. 16 summers in a row and we're going to be there 2 weeks from now. In shall law. This is in, in shirley and washington north of spokane. Anyway, you can ask me later about it. So when I moved to malaysia, it was important to me that we do something like that in malaysia. So I taught my young people how to do it and we organized our own well, what to call ourselves. We can help you under cycle camp. So we just made up our own neighbors, the same idea, borneo young believers. I think that we call ourselves borneo young believers b Y B and it was a great experience. Now, 6 months before we did it, I wrote to the youth director in the conference. That's not the conference for I work because the countries i work doesn't have enough adventist. So we organized it in a different conference in malaysia as a lot of adventist, you know, so the kids can come. I wrote to the youth director, i used from publication in the church that had his what's out number and his email address night wrote him what we're going to do and. And he never wrote back. And I sent messages periodically and he never responded. And us, I sent them to the president and he never wrote back. And I'm, I'm not too surprised a lot of times in asia, people don't write back, so we just went forward and we did it. And the 1st day of camp, the president called me very upset. He said, why didn't you ask permission? I said, my dear sir, I don't know. I said, I'm just making this up. I said, my dear sir, I did try to inform you. Because I like to work together with the churches, i did try to let you know and the, and the youth director. Neither of you ever responded to me. But we don't need permission. I said to moses and Joshua over there when the god commission 70 man to take some of the responsibilities and 68 of them came to the center. But el dad and me, dad stayed back there in the camp. And when god poured out his spirit, the surprising thing was he poured out also an el dad and me, dad. You remember that story in the old testament and Joshua heard about it and he was distressed. I'm putting my own words in his mouth. He said moses, these guys aren't following protocol, they're not going with the program. They aren't here at center. And they're all so profit sign. He said moses forbid them. Your moses said back moses said to Joshua, do you envy for my sake, joshua? I wish every one was a prophet. That is the opinion of moses was he doesn't have to control everything to be content. It's all right with him. If God does something somewhere else and that just gets his work done without any stress of his part. So fast forward a couple 1000 years, james and John are wandering. They, here's some commotion. They go over and they see a man is casting out demons. And he does it in the name of jesus. They said, Jesus never told you to do that. Don't use his name, that's for us. A man private, sheepish and anyway, they accomplish their mission that came back to jesus. And when he was teaching, they began, as they heard his teaching, they began to think maybe they had gotten something wrong so they can fast your memory and that the bible and they confessed, they said jesus, we, we told him to stop. And jesus said, forbid them not. He said, those that aren't against us are on our part. Any one who does america? My name isn't lightly gonna speak evil about me. Let's say that another way jesus said that people who go promoting the adventist church with their own initiatives are likely going to lightly speak evil about the adventist church. If they're trying to do brain people in that they're not likely going to be trying to pull people out. That by letting them carry their initiatives, it just takes a burden off the administration. It's hard to control every sign. We don't have the wherewithal to do it. Let god work with the people. So I wrote a whole little paper on this called forbid them, not if you Google my name, pruitt forbid the not you'll find it because it was published in administer firm some years ago. And you can find it there, but the version and adventist a firm was too long for the people in that conference. So I made it shorter about 5 pages long and said a 20 and and I sent it again. And nothing has changed as far as I can tell, as far as I can tell, but I am talking to you instead of them right now. And I'm saying that religious liberty works like this. That I don't feel like I need to control you and you should not feel like you need to control me. I don't control my wife and she doesn't control me. I don't control the church. The church doesn't control me. That that is we work together. I hope you do good work and you should hope I do good work. We work together because our mission is similar. And when our mission is similar, maybe sometimes we can even work together closer than that because it just works out that way. And if it does, i'll be very nice and then if we have to part ways later, we won't be enemies. That will be just fine. But religious liberty involves an idea that god can administer times without me. I don't have to be the director of all. It's not rule or ruin. Have you know, any one that was rule or ruin. Anyone had like, the idea didn't start with them is going to end with sound and that kind of idea. That's not in harmony with the principle that we're the spirit of the Lord is there is liberty. So that was women's ordination. But now I forgot all the rest of them. What was the one you said, sir? Oh, music. So there is a movement right now on YouTube called re frame ike like frame again, that, that, that, that kind of refrain. And there is a strong movement among young people. I'd say the spearhead of this. I wouldn't say as david ash, rick, i'd say probably that's about where it began. And I think probably ties been brought in with him to get some gibson. And I thought this movement would be saying that our views that we've taught as a church for many decades about music really are based on what the profits say. They're based on bad data and cultural conditioning. And then we really would look at what the profits are saying we would come to a different conclusion about music. One that was more inclusive of the, the various gene residue in ccm. If that sounds like greek to you, I mean the various types of music been listened to, often by young people today. I strongly disagree. And if you want to like waste some time, you could do a Google search for pruitt ashery music. And you would find a 100 page dialogue between us on this topic. And yeah, interesting. Have you read it already? You know? And I think that you could say that music is a doubtful disputation. But listen, not the for youth before you jump, my ellen white says a lot about music and I think I've made a fairly exhaustive collection of those materials. My friend in germany, christopher cramp has done an exhaustive study in the bible music. He's an orchestra director. That's where he does for living. And he preaches about music. I think you saw him on YouTube, you'd be interested in his preaches in English. You'll understand that you'd be interested in what he has to say, christopher crop When it comes to welcome that when, if not, when it comes to welcome to welcome, we should be very welcoming. But when it comes to music, we need to teach about caution. Let me explain about caution. If I put a 2 by 4 right here on line flat on the floor, I think I could successfully walk it even at a pretty good clip. A 2 by 4, is it So hard to walk? But if you put at 60 feet up and now you asked me to walk it, this is much harder even for I'm ok for I can jump. But at 60 feet, this is scary, right? And it's the same 2 by 4. But somehow what's going on is the risk has gone up a lot. Right? And as risk goes up, caution goes up. That is the natural way for us. The issue with music is that music ology is at a low level. The science is at a low level so that we don't really understand physiologically and emotionally and spiritually how music works. We have a lot of guesswork, but the research isn't really in. There is research and there's research on both sides. And there's a lot of it and it's not all good. Like there's a lot of nonsense that's promoted on this topic. And I thought what I would say to you is that when we're in a state where the prophets have said, have said a lot of interesting things and caution about dance music and about loud music and voice, tristan, what happened in Indiana when they've said that about how satan use us music to influence moral decisions and change the way that to create a lack of desire for jesus. These are pretty heavy risks. These are like your, your children could go to hell. They're pretty heavy risks and as the risk goes higher, what should also go higher? So that even if I can't prove to you that this style of music is dangerous, i can give some evidence that might be and in view of the risk, i'm not going to take the risk. I don't want to say that unless it can be proven, i'm just gonna throw caution to the wind. Let me back up and you might see the connection of this to lucifer. When lucifer began to say the 3rd, this is before the earth was made, that there are other ways to live than following god's artificial law. Suppose you were an angel, then. How could you know that lucifer is Ron? It's very hard. Really what you have to go by is some evidence that god is loving and that he's obviously powerful. And he's obviously smart. Those 3 signs that evidence for those is abundant. And based on those 3 things together, it seems like that his law ought to be in my best interests. And what he says about it should be trustworthy. You see how those 2 ideas follow the evidence? What lucifer sane is, where's the proof? And the answer is I don't have proof but he doesn't even have evidence What he has it when he might manufacture something that looks. I suppose he probably did manufacturer something looked like evidence. But all the I see about god's trustworthiness. The evidence seems that god is trustworthy. And so faith is not a leap in the dark faith as a stout, based on the evidence. As an angel, i need to say, I don't have proof, but it looks to me that god is right, and I'm choosing to trust him because he seems trustworthy as seems sensible to trust him because everything is ever done looks trustworthy. And so for that reason, I'm going this way. What, what loose from it say is, you're a fool. You have no proof. Where is your proof that look how happy i am, I'm doing fine. I've been going this way for however, I don't, I don't know the measure time outside of this planet. You know, I don't know. Maybe weeks, not weeks might work outside of the planet, but that's based on days, isn't it? I don't know. I've been doing it for a while and I'm doing fine. This is almost loose for said eve. It didn't say it, but it was implied. No, I'm here. Look, I can talk. And so that even from the very beginning, righteousness was based on face lawn before earth was created. Angels had to determine whether to live by faith or by proof faith or experiment faith or experiment. So when god created earth and he put those 2 trees in the middle, those 2 trees were faith and experiment. The tree of life that trusting god that everything his done is for your benefit, the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. Take a try and see how it goes. What I'm trying to say to you is music fits in this category. But you really can't prove that there's anything wrong with the tree, the knowledge good and evil. The only way you can give any evidence that it's bad is the evidence that god is trustworthy in what he said. And I think in music where that's where we're at. We really can't prove it from science. We can look at the inspired statements and we can see that this is a big issue we can see. And daniel 3, it's going to be a big issue in the end of time. When daniel 3 is the model used for up for revelation, 13 with the image and everything. And that like if, if ever the word john or would be in the English bible would be in daniel 3. You know where it says every kind of music that says it over and over and over there would be every genre, every genre, every genre at laver, designed to cause people to bow down. So yeah, people argue about music and I think that and this issue, it's not just a theory. According to the prophet, it's serious and at warrant caution. What was someone already here brought up on? I forgot what it was, not even forgot who it was. What did you brought up? Something during potluck during coven? Yeah. So this is a real, a great example of that hard issue that we're facing personally about risk versus fellowship. Because of their risk of getting people think it was more like the government says we should not be having meals like this. So it's more like a lot of things like where the government. Okay. Not an actor worse. There wasn't, he wasn't really concerned about it. I understand, well I want to talk about that one too because that, that, that's, that is a different issue. So let me try and talk about them both on the issue of risk versus a fellowship. The bible was the one that commands us to have fellowship. That's, that's hebrews 10, right? It says for sake, not the assembling of yourselves together. And so much the more as you see the day approaching. So we don't really have and a option about whether or not we fellowship with each other. But we don't have to defy the government in many parts of the world and even right now in malaysia, in West malaysia, it's prudent to meet and houses We don't have to meet in a church. It's prudent to meet and houses. And it could happen even here in this country during times when we don't want to look defiant, that be prudent to meet and homes. And if we meet and homes, i think you'll find the fellowship isn't one with lower quality than if you meet under a steeple. That's the same business, and it's actually easier to invite the neighbors when you meet in your home. You know, you have a lot of neighbors that will come to your house that will never come under your steeple. So maybe the best it could ever happen to have our church is closed, maybe Way more. Not In malaysia. I've tried to convince everyone there that when you do a proxy series, don't do it in the church at jet. But how can you afford a hall and some house will back out on you, you know, even if you do it in a home and only get 6 people, you're pregnant, baptized 3 of them is just to bit. So what I'm really trying to say to you about this fellowship versus risk stain is that defiance is a poor quality for us as a church to show. Do you know about the civil war? When the civil war started? ellen white was here in Michigan. And in Wisconsin next door, there were some zealous ad vanessa who realized the commandment says out shalt not kill. And so they wrote to the governor of their territory and said, we the 7th day adventist will not take part in the war effort. Even if you shoot us, we will not Which sounds to me if I didn't have a profit to correct my thinking. Noble. I kind of like boldness and courage and it makes me happy when I see it. But l white rebuked that group. She didn't rebuke them for their possession of noncombatants. See, she rebuked them for their position of defiance that made god's people look like they were in sympathy with the rebellion. That is what wisconsin reads in this letter. As the ad, vanessa want slaves or whatever, you know, something like that, it looks like that were on the wrong side. I want to be sure that we learn a principle that though liberty is precious, we want to be sure when the bible talks about liberty, it usually isn't about religious liberty. When the bible talks about liberty, it's usually about your personal liberty. Been sacrificed for the good of people would get the wrong idea or be injured by your abuse of your personal liberty. That's usually how the bible uses the word liberty. That was important to me and made me forget what I was talking about. Can you remind me what I'm talking about a potluck? Yeah, yes. Very good about fellowship, about not being defiant that we can't afford to relate to the government in a way that looks like that we don't care about their authority. You should know the reason that a T jones rejected. Ellen, why does a profit? There is more than one reason, but this is one of the key ones. And it's because she was teaching that when the sunday law comes, we should as, as daniel opened his window to pray, we should go out and weed our garden. We should carry about our business out in the open on Sunday. So everyone can see that we are not submitting to this encroachment on our personal liberties. And we're l. Y had to say is no. Sunday is a fine time to do evangelism. It's a fine time to have meetings and we do not need to appear defiant. What is required is that we keep the sabbath holy, that we honor the sabbath. It's not required that we, that we read our garden on Sunday, right? That we mo, at on that day at that. And this looked to 80 jones, like base compromise. And on that basis, there is a book called lessons from the reformation. In that book he identifies ellen white as a modern joseph bell. I'm not recommending that you read it, but I'm telling you this, this is what, this is what came of him. So what's the issue of liberty part of part of liberty is that we have liberty in ourselves, but we do not use our liberty as an occasion of stumbling that we modify on behavior. We restrict ourselves in a way that helps us have a better chance of helping other people in malaysia. We have some very oppressive laws. One of the laws in malaysia is that I, as a non muslim, cannot use the word loss. I can and there's 25 words in the list. They're all the basic words that are used by a certain class of missionaries, islamic religion. Those who are pretending as it were to be moves. Let us do you know about that? Let me preach about it for about 8 minutes and then I'll be review and close in the world right now, both in advantage of outside of adventuresome. It's in both places. The mission movement of the church has been perplexed by islam for a long time. And finally it about 25 years ago, they began to hit on a way that we could reach them without dying. Which has always been the major objection. It's always been and this was the way I can pretend to be a muslim the way I talk the way I act, the way I use the koran i can be and. And what was found is that in the koran, you know, I've read the koran very carefully and taken notes in the whole sign. In the koran, you can show the sabbath on Saturday. You can show the unconscious state of man and death. You can show their resurrection. You can show the judgement. You can show that you don't have to show we can just read that jesus is the messiah. The name of jesus in the koran. Is jesus the messiah? That's how he always appears every time. You know 25 times and there you can show a lot of things you can show in the qur'an that jesus is the creator. And so as I showed those things to you, you now began to be a movie lamb the loves jesus views him as the healer, and as the messiah and as the savior. And this movement began to spread around it both in and outside of the admin church as a way to reach them. And I'll tell you that has some serious problems. For one thing, the koran is a terrible book. It certainly denies that jesus is the son of god distinctly denies his divinity. Certainly teachers that good deeds cancel bad deeds so that the judgment amounts to God way and your good deeds against your bad deeds. You know that this is the basis of every false religion as the basis of the whole bunch of them in its plainly stated, they are plainly stated there. Ladies, y'all like this one that was tongue and cheek. That's a good way to bite your tongue that says that to the husbands. If you're a woman disobeys you, you should have a talk into her. If he disobeyed you a 2nd time, you should deny intimacy to her. If she denies you a 3rd time, you should hit our That's in the crime. It's not a book design to lower domestic violence. Because most people, they have a principle of morality in their head that's ideal. And they try to get to it, but they have a hard time. If the principal you're trying to get to is turn the other cheek, then that's gonna help you escape domestic violence. But if that, if your goal principal is weight to the 3rd time before you hit That isn't a high enough goal. You follow what I'm saying. It's not a good book. The koran teachers more than 40 times that there is an eternal burning. Hell. And it has a lot of details about it, the length of the chain that's going to tie you in the fire, the nature of the waves and a tree down there that has like goblin had growing on it for fruit. And what it says there is that the fires of hell are going to burn you physically. It's going to be your body and not just a soul. It's going to burn your skin off. But that means you can't feel pain anymore. So god will recreate your skin so you can and he'll do that over and over so that god is personally involved in making sure that you feel pain through eternity. I'm telling you it's not a good book. And so if you, if you use it right, what I'm saying is that when you use the, when you use the koran, the way that this mission movement is using net, what you're really doing is using at the same way that catholics use the bible to prove catholicism you're using net not very honestly. You're using net leaving out saying, you know, it says that say just the opposite. You're, you're twisting the book. You can twist it successfully because it's not very well written so that it's possible to twist it. But you know, the koran specifically has the, the story of the follow lucifer 3 times, and it's lucifer's version lucifer's version. Let me tell you the cron story of it. It says that god created the angels and probably the same day. It's what it looks like in the cron. He created adam and eve, and then he commanded all the angels to bow down to adam. And one of the angels said, hey, we're created his created, that's the same. I'm not going to back down to him. That's lucifer That satan's version of the story. Satan was asked to bow down to who and he said, no lucifer's version of the story is in the koran 3 times. So I don't think that book was made up by mohamad. And gabriel really did appear to him if you understand, I mean, I think he really did get some inspiration there. And it wasn't the a good gabriel. So I don't use the crown at all when i've told you these people, and I've talked about that I've reached that we've reached in islamic, that's not using the crohn at all. Not a bit because it would be inconsistent for me to use it to day and de miles say, I'm sorry it's, it's not So all I've said that in this period isn't a lot. But it's that liberty, our personal liberty needs to be subjected to the needs of people. And that when it comes to the government, we have to be sure that we don't demand our rights in a way that makes us look defiant. The social justice concept glorifies defiance as a way to win rights. Jesus glorified submission as a way to win souls. It's quite different. In principle, it's different. So when I am coming, i want to see in the commandments the gospel, the 2nd commandment. I want to see myself the I O bay, but I can't afford to try to force you. So what do I do? Have you read the statement that own white? It's been quoted in several places. It's not the work of any man to prescribe the work of any other man. Contrary to his own convictions of duty, it is right to give counsel and suggest plans that every man must be left free to seek direction from god, whose ears and whom he serves. So anyone read that you can witness that. I didn't just make it up. But some of you with a phone can find it it's it's in more than one place. I know that did you catch the idea and it, it's the, it's about limits. It says the limit is the I can counsel you. I can tell you what I think I can make suggestions of what you should do. But I can't tell you that god told me that you should. I can't say, I know you need to. Someone might be saying, what can't you say to someone who's been other girlfriend, you know, they should move out. You can say that god said it. Yeah, you can be very, very sure about that. God says you. But as far as our personal conviction, i can't have convictions for you, you can't have convictions for me. And because of this on these issues that are doubtful, we have to give each other some grace have to give it and we should give it warmly, not begrudgingly for I have one minute, I can't finish that a minute. I'll give you a pre cursor on tomorrow's lecture. It's that there's a reason why jesus does not appear in the sky and tell everyone to be 7th day adventists. It's because we would all do it out of fear. And if we did out of fear, we would not do it out of love and trust, but from the beginning love and trust is the one thing that leads to holy living. And so if God tried to move us that way with great power, if he just appeared in a dream to us and told us quit drinking or you're going to burn in hell. If he did that, we would quit But our characters would not change. And so god takes a stand back approach of teaching that gives us an ability to obey our love and trust at the risk of our disobedience. But we don't give that same grace to people if they obey us because of fear, either that we're going to hurt them or god is going to hurt them. That is, if we come on too strong, we removed from them the option of developing love and trust. I can't develop that very well now, but that's tomorrow. We're going to pray now and will be done. Let's pray our father in heaven. I asked that she would bless us as we learn about liberty and, and by its principles. I asked for that gift in the name of jesus, a man To listen to more of these presentations. You may visit the audio archives at M. I S D A dot org slash audio 2021 or search for michigan conference camp meeting wherever you get your podcast.

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