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Emergence Christianity's Impact on the Seventh-day Adventist Movement: Part 1

John Jovan Markovic
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Many people are aware of the existence of the emerging/emergent church movement, but few know that the idea of “emerging/emergent church” goes back to the early 20th century. The emerging/emergent church movement is a tangible manifestation of a new way of thinking, a new way of doing Christianity, and a new worldview increasingly referred to as Emergence Christianity. The latter is a broader category, and once understood, it becomes clear that it is in direct opposition to the biblical teachings and biblical worldview. Hence, Emergence Christianity and biblical Christianity are incompatible.


John Jovan Markovic

Professor of Modern European and Church History, Andrews University




  • August 8, 2014
    10:45 AM
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I will write his gentlemen I am going to him I'm John Mark Rich I am Professor of history European model modern European history and church history at Andrews University I was born in Winchester there was Florida came to this country nineteen sixty nine I was born the seventh layout this family of fuel somebody is interested still seven that this and I will be presenting to you subject to some of you are familiar with scheduling most of you heard all the emerging church movement toward the emerging church phenomenon by what I'm going to present to you today and sometime this afternoon will most likely go beyond what you have ever heard before are talking about some very fundamental changes taking place in society and we can compare us to somewhat like imagine when tectonic plates move what happens earthquake takes place and this metaphorical comparison on analogy with the only place is done by many scholars they argue that what we are experiencing in the last two years to be more precise the properties they invented by most scholars invented by the due is so-called tectonic changes have been taking place since about the nineteen sixties I did goes on at the church as well and it is only approximately by the year two thousand we have something begins to manifest actually to become tangible to be visible and people begin to call it the emergent church so I I have a number of slides here that I am going basically to read the slides because I knew following the screen the reason I'm going that is because I have to hold myself to a well known address prepared to talk otherwise I may get into the details and never complete the subject matter reported five minutes last semester this spring semester I thought the corners on the emergency which states fifteen weeks and saw I am trying to put the blue somehow summarized to give you the most important and answered the question that I was as and that is what in fact this particular phenomena does on seventh Avenue so that is my job so let us pray and then begin with this presentation their father we thank you for this beautiful day we thank you for another a proponent demo chance to sit down to talk about an important subject we ask for the presence of the Holy Spirit we need him to help us and we place ourselves into your hands we ask in Jesus name and my journey with the emerging church began in fall I was sent a although I have read the works of the critics I primarily focus on the works of the emergence and self mighty searches based on the reading and analysis of the emerging literature meeting on the literature written by critics and my personal loans I felt as I attended several of their conferences and workshops the emerging church phenomenon is complex perplexing and sensitive information presented today about the emerging church and emergence Christianity will help you see that complexity although I will at times referred to religious systems persons and organizations since that is unavoidable my focus is nevertheless on ideas concepts teachings ideologies rather than on individuals themselves if I disapprove of what I sound judgment felt about an idea or a concept or an ideology I said not necessarily be taken of judgmental saw my findings may touch the bar and someone may be offended that is the case with you I understand all I ask you to hear me to the end and if you're still in this agreement you can reach me at J J Michael Andrews .edu I'm grateful to the emergence for a number of things although I am their critic as well the emergence of raising and posing challenges that are forcing all of us Seventh-day Adventists Romans rules including Catholics even if phases and non- Christians to examine our lives reassess our existential reality everything out and system the fundamental questions of life both as individuals and as communities emergence are fine people pleasant to be around they seek a better world and are ready to engage the abuse injustice exploitation of both human and nature prejudices racism doctrines that do not make sense life doctrine of eternal burning hell emergency Jack Mannion involved in making society better as they run programs for the poor ostracize oppressed addicted and forgot forgotten by society and many times in many cases Christians though that's exactly I go along with most of their questions complaints and he didn't invent educational problems with traditional Christianity I feel their pain I strongly disagree with the answers and solutions they provide the main target of their criticism you have to keep this in mind is the mainline Protestantism they do not criticize Catholic Orthodox and Pentecostal Christianity as you share with others what you are going to learn here please do not disclose to these two do not use my statements and divisive manner against those in whom you believe you have protected emergent ideas and cause we should not engage in a witch hunt but we need to recognize the language of the Masters seduce believe it or not most of us are to a lesser or greater degree in fact I don't want to say all of us I always gave room for some exceptions without all infected in one way or the other some of this it is before we can discuss the fact emergence Christianity makes of the seventh day Adventist will we need to say something about the emergent church subject matter which will take us through emergence Christianity emerging church appear on the public scene around the turn of the twenty first century the leadership that for a national organization within the North American evangelicalism in existence since nineteen eighty four with an objective to work with those who are not afraid to introduce innovation in the life of the churches as obviously young believers network to address the problem of a large exodus of young adults from institutional churches in nineteen ninety seven he hired a thirteen years old dog that just had on June twenty one ninety two thousand one overcome principle called a group of so-called homeless which means they claim they had no denominational affiliation these Google pastors theologians and I'm mentioning some of them Doctor Frederick County Jones Brian McLaren the material increase a theme convert grant says so they were pondering over how to call themselves they settled on the emergence of nonbillable than the years pass the same group of people or by you know what and by others as the emerging leaders all the emerging church what I want to find out as you keep this in mind as regards we talk the idea of emergent church existed before they did not invent them that in two thousand one major features of the emergence of personal volume must remember and never forget this we are not talking about a new denomination they do not aim to organize themselves into another church it is rather a new way of doing Christianity it is a new way of thinking about Christianity the emergence like to see themselves and refer to themselves as emerging conversation people often forget this fact because it is difficult to focus on something that is it that is inconspicuous and invisible divergence emphasized that society is undergoing a world run major wool leadership since the nineteen sixties this is also crucial in understanding the nature of the emerging church or emergence Christianity it is also crucial for the future of the seventh day Adventist movement in my experience as a historian as a church historian I believe that we Seventh-day Adventists have not yet done serious study and I don't think we really understand what the cause world news and we have recognized this paradigm shift taking place in the last six to seven years that may be of judgmental statement that's my belief yes we have books and articles reviewer help them does you good service along about worldview but I don't think we have yet mastered that particular subject this is crucial in understanding the nature okay so the emergence base their legitimacy on this historical reality that the fundamental tectonic Paul major world machine is taking place as the nineteen fifties and sixties that a major paradigm shift some of them use the term cultural shift has been taking place in the aftermath of the second world war is well recognized by historians now I use I just use the term World War II but that that event alone is not the only thing if you want to talk about the same old mall all of modernity and I'm using Cindy S the sin of modernity then we are talking about what happened between the decades all eighteen ninetieths in nineteen forty five what happened during that period of time is seen by the generations after the nineteen fifties as the sin of the modern world and we are talking about and I'm going to solicit the without colonization and everything that goes with racism World War I World War II but it seems that happened between the two anti-Semitism the Holocaust the dropping of the two atomic bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki and then we have the globalization struggle with all that problems like to get to the racism and anti-Semitism that whole package is called the sin of the modern world footnote mill human civilization has achieved what Western civilization has achieved in human history in positive mill civilization Western civilization has achieved more than any other civilization in human history in terms of technology music philosophy humor they however no civilization has produced more evil and destruction up on humanity than Western civilization has the forget that is what pulls nineteen fifties generation is trying to deal with the emergency eject the idea that there are absolute norms and values which are applicable to order binding on all humans give irrespective of culture and time no narrative according to them dominates the narratives of other cultures and religions known metanarrative fully explains reality and no mathematically provides answers to the fundamental questions of life old humans for example what .net announces communism Marxism socialism you name it all days ideologies that come as a product of the modern world what is absent is mathematically on the Bible the great country was a game now he'll talk to postmodern Ms. and they will tell you your metanarrative your story doesn't answer all the questions it doesn't apply to everybody how do you respond to that challenge how do we respond the emergence are ecumenical to be an emergent rebounding it dramatically is impossible that the lady is an inseparable and emerges insist on inclusiveness and their strong critics of exclusions now I just have to add question and answer some you may ask I've collaborate on this these are cold times when they say we are enclosing trust me dad exclusive as well okay I've seen that the next that question for the FDA's why are we on easy about the ecumenical unity we are on these now we can only give answers that I know we have answers I don't think of those answers are right on the there is an unwritten rule but well understood by all and this is what you use this is the rules of emergency run by join date grammatical community and let us work together for the betterment of society let us talk about ideas believes projects that bring us together let us not talk about ideas beliefs and projects that divide us that unwritten rule but is there anything that divides us is not acceptable nine they usually would say unit is defined divisiveness is the money now today is by nature on device does the emergence shone a good example why Diaz the A's cannot join the ecumenical movement was shown during the visit of Doctor Michael Kinnaman the former general secretary of the national Council of churches to end his university campus in February two thousand twelve a devout Christian and find gentlemen one who according to his own words admires the as the A's for their devotion and respect for the sap Kinnaman publicly invited that Andrews professors and students to join the ecumenical table and teach none at this call to honor the Sabbath would you be willing to join the ecumenical table and teach us how to honor the South yes the entire all was the entire congregation responded I was sitting in about thirty four throws I don't buy exactly what errors in books of persons respond that way but no of the responses loan having been pleased to know more than adept would you make that your primary objective and may reach a day this output is the sec relocation design there was a resounding no and I watch them because I know this is I know is I talked there and I Watson said I could see were about a couple of seconds he was surprised it took about that he was kind of the what the site and then he responded well in that case I guess you do not belong at the ecumenical table you get the message is dramatic of unity does not allow us to be ourselves to proclaim the gospel in its entirety the emergency system warships of the invention of the experiential through all five senses and participatory old members of the obvious of the ball in one way or the other somehow no preacher or priest is favored over the members of the audience and they would often stress you probably heard this this is their slow I'm spiritual I am not religious I don't get all that my response to that is if they went about the cold language how can you be spiritual and not religious and how can you be religious and spiritual the two always go together be no mighty warships style is the most attractive feature of the emergent church it is also the constant points with the public condition by Dean Hill audio technology easily bored with routines of life and guided by feelings people seek new and exciting in general my students in my class does not past ten minutes of my class it's forty five fifty which means that in order to get their attention I have to break or do I have to always keep that in mind this is just a byproduct of culture that we have to deal with same thing goes for worship now think about fifty minutes long so how do you engage them back for example compare a difficult Protestant worship which was Seventh-day Adventist to have when the Catholic mass or ought to be suboptimal switches your born-again Pentecostal worship what everybody's been getting now I'm not condemning from the sun worshiper event on bumping the wrong I'm just pointing out the differences the point is we need to do something about what that's the question the data collected from some five sermons of discarded by the above the emergence because they are perceived as lecturing icon select channeled towards your list of emerges not like that I'm a big spaceship is dominating the creature knows and I sit down I suppose don't know and they see it is oppressive like to impose a set of videos Carmen lives I put that in quotation marks what I don't thing that really was that this shortfall there is short and the audience is encouraged surveyed with questions and comments if available they would have to decide someone who would lose rations like reporters who change that you probably saw that usually portray Wright hair to the side in order to rule may give the audience goes on to today's all video more visual than on banking law recognizes the leader in the emerging church worship sets manual the very things that you have learned that we removed from our churches because they were soundly blocks seekers in previous generations are now the very things that attracted the emerging generations in other words he's saying what the Protestants have thrown out of the church we are now bringing back because that is what people want to unlock those who are attracted to the emerging church worship realize you judge his father more than the innovations in worship this is a vested bike emerges themselves in the most dangerous innovations that are the production of the Eucharist this is happening left and right the Catholic mass the images and relics animation of nature what I mean by that is putting spit it back into the Mac believing that spirit is in the forest through the trees in the value to say that that is somewhat unenthused and the sacred space for contemplation and meditation which is always provided usually to the side somewhere a space where people are encouraged to go on meditate them contemplate so there anyways as the rain put a footnote here IM for innovations and I believe with Seventh-day Adventist months do something here that this is an all-in-one professor book on how so many of you know I've we both agree we seven that this is not yet developed Adventist worship rim though we have not yet developed created something that we can call this is Adventist worship we heard from the center we modified some thing are keeping most of this and that but we really have not created something biblical the guessing this is working based on biblical principles we seriously have to address that is so I'm not against innovations the question is what kind of innovation presumably all wars at this documents on the books pagans all of us worship it is how we worship what we do during the wars and what is the purpose of our worship and that difference away he does a lot of things this will be obvious that innovation and worship whether individual community worship is the adoption of spiritual discipline of business says all I hope some of you listen carefully and on November spiritual disciplines what are those editing in their spiritual lives centering prayer prayer walkway a letter in solitude silence fasting Bible reading so collecting the venous sacred 's reading read submissions South that prayer practices the ogres anything can be spiritual this one the purpose behind the spiritual disciplines spiritual disciplines are I think it is individuals or believers corporately participate in Dolan spiritual development or there is another time for the value spiritual formation certain spiritual disciplines are created for individual spiritual formation all other spiritual disciplines are creative for corporate spiritual formation according to Richard for a mystic and a Franciscan priest old spiritual disciplines are creative with an objective to achieve a state of contemplative consciousness and he thinks sciences of spiritual formation is invented by Christian mystics as a replacement and I can call it counterfeit to what Protestants called sanctification spiritual formation primarily occur over occurs through experience and participation to experience God 's presence or God or union with God one has to be trained into contemplative conscious many assume spiritual formation is just another phrase for traditional spiritual growth and sanctification it's not the purpose behind the spiritual disciplines is the development of the Internet being to produce the specific pattern of behavior to achieve a state of contemplative consciousness it is believed even one wants to experience divine law divine forgiveness the vines suffer the buying process it is essential that he or she learns to think the world is thickly you are so full and all but two of the okay this is not seen as the conduit was deeply involved and instead of doing basically either/or and I'll explain that none will escape that means both small thinking is not judgmental he does not distinguish it is not predatory according to roll or non- dualistic mode of thought is a higher superior level of thinking in comparison to do all these things either or both roars as the mold of thinking practice by seeing those borders colonists send practitioners is superior to Western Christian analytical thinking which is influenced by the great according to mistakes they are several levels of consciousness thinking and depends on the mystic they have various levels some of them six nine some of them even eleven the law levels of primitive necessary for daily affairs of life stage we human beings we are creative the way God created us we are rational human being and weekend calls and linguistically it is simply either I'm calling them academically on elliptical critical thinking so I see when I speak to you you are mine registers your listening to me you are mine his processing information and assertive I say Johnny stole your mind immediately compares tall versus whatever your mind is for sure all being small in comparison you have to bring critically in order to understand organization what is missing some saying is this kind of thinking prevents you from carrying Hewitt in our or the mind from outside three okay the things differently think of in terms of computers you would know that there are different we're talking here about different programs like Microsoft Ward versus WordPerfect talking about when talking about alternating systems by PC versus Mac they just don't work with two different operating systems what that's what they are talking about you we have to be trained according to the tool line tool get this on the alternating system to convey a convinced both than in other words is a language without signs of failure is to contemplate and meditate stop thinking no one important in father language hypnosis whether certain Celtic gnosis or two pulses from outside mythic is a personal record through contemplation and meditation reaches the highest level of contemplative conscious when mine stopped thinking dualistic way that these are analytically critically when the mind does not make shots men's between right and wrong good and bad but I do not analyze it does not distinguish but in that moment a visitor center to hear the voice of the Spirit in order to achieve union with the divine now that's a subject I can talk for hours so I have to stop indisputable another very important disfigured characters the emergence are tasty revolutions and theistic evolutionism defines emergent theology and provides all assumptions and presuppositions to the fundamental questions of life in other words basic evolution exam is the decisive factor in the making of the emerging worldview to come back to what I started question is not what is world the emergent worldview defined by the stick of Bolshevism weekdays vision of his and shapes radically different philosophy of history that is in direct conflict with biblical worldview and the Seventh-day Adventist philosophy of history if there is such that similar area I don't think I had it's understandable because we send out despite makes embrace of the great universe of somehow we sons speculators and then we we are quite straightforward all we don't have truly well trained philosophers so we Seventh-day Adventists never developed well articulated at the so I sent him there isn't one of course there is some but I think we need to work more why do we need that while in order to respond in order to consent the history of the focus of the Reformation is revised in the emergent religion when you read emergent literature and margins she studied books about the history of Christianity it is a quite different version than traditional church history I'm meeting that has say son Ali Martin Luther John Colvin wrote this funds capital lyrics so what want people for one group consult together but it's completely reminds that you begin to wonder what's what happened in the past suddenly what we had been teaching for years decades is not correct her interest of the emergent worldview divine right is the caboose is uncalled for engagement in social activism that creates the kingdom of God and I put it in italics for you to give this to my Kingdom of God here and enough the second coming of Christ which is at the very core of who you are but very call that is rejected the apocalyptic offices of the book of Revelation is negated or that's really not declare you know that guy over the program we second gotten through the conjugal fidelity of his books to find here here when you meet them in person I'm talking several statements got my offenders one that is being Tony Jones reports about going back to the first so I'm done with characteristics and use seeing how that in no way affects elsewhere I think as challenges us to make some changes and reforms but also it a lot of our young people are simply lost that they don't know what to do and so now I'm going back it was showing some of his Tony Jones in one of his books says that that group will do so-called original quotation marks original founders of today have been tagged by others is emerging leaders of emerging church well before they decided June twenty one two thousand one to call themselves emergent church that Kmart tells me that the idea of emergent church existed well before two thousand one so I decided to pursue fine books and articles which talk about the emergent judge the fourth two thousand one saw I pursue degrees skewed and I pursue the leaves and discovered that several books with the title the emergent church has been published before two thousand Angel nineteen sixty eight all on Wilkins who called the special system array English month is a well-known field they published a paper backing two volumes vital the emergence of nineteen sixty eight we need premature and need to opt you know what that is anyone is a that is when a Catholic children or Catholics write the book and they want to official approval by the importance of the Catholic Church that their books so the pool so that Catholics in general and read it because for many decades Catholics were told not to read books of the by the office by problems saw books will be submitted to the major office and the office will put in premature that means each literally means that piece of literature the book you hold these three all theological doctrinal moral errors but that means this is published by church so whatever it says there I'm not making enough fruits that's what they said clearest light nineteen seventy there is a book published by Bruce Logsdon and while all the Presbyterian pastors this is the nineteen seventy also called the emergent church year later maximal white a Pentecostal this is a small small brochure about sixty pages called the emerging church John Carr from Scotland the emergent church basically argues that the book of Ephesians argues for the book of Ephesians talks about what comes out right there in the first century the Johannes Baptist mess well known German scholar translated from German into English the emerging church nineteen eighty one he was student all well known German scholar called Reiner Reiner was annexed through the second Vatican Council John Gill coming months Madsen was also present but not an expert at the second Vatican Council the emergent judgment only is the mind that they mention published nineteen sixty one A was revised updated and republished in late nineteen eighty one the emerging American church by Dan Scott former Pentecostal who left the movement and became emerge on this book is very interesting because I'm sat on several places throughout the book he had been a friend says Seventh-day Adventists like on all the remarkable just a note does specifically mention it at this but she mentions us of internal on important of the church emerging from Vatican II written by that is told this is professed sort as I believe University of Cincinnati's date done and I had this book of several couple decades of myself are one of those environments of the cell phone is arguably but it's very important because he connect directly some issues here of the Lucy labor deal served by Michael Moeller Michael Molokai Catholic reporter publishing book in nineteen sixty four this is right in the middle on the second Vatican Council she was reporting from the second Vatican Council to New York papers and magazines and in the process he writes a book and he called the Catholic Church as it comes out that the second Vatican Council he calls it the open the literature is written by Hospital New Orleans ninety sixty three this is right there at the beginning of the second Vatican Council which visible presented before the opening of the console and he is very much supportive and you see what drove the place that there is your answer is in them by every dollars between them at about twelve years late that after the consult this one is written with the purpose when he is obsessing to seeing whether the church the Catholic Church is living up to the decisions made at the second Vatican Council and started but it's very useful Orcadian understanding what is happening so these are the books the thing that I invented them I got a hold of them I will then they are there if anybody tries to destroy all of them I still have rather than the real stuff that now but as the second Vatican Council in other words literature takes me back to the second Vatican Council is the Catholic church which was so seeing perceived and understood to be the emerging church and the first those two items in particular what they are saying his value can take it both ways you can say what is being perceived is that the sharks C at these all Christmas is a virgin or you can say is the Catholic church but it's emerging bazaar however this is because the meaning is there for ball if that's how you see remember I mentioned the strict evolutionism now you know what the sticker pollution is it you or some people do some people don't look at those of you who don't you'll know what Darwinian evolutionary theory is okay Garabedian evolutionary theory argues that everything you see on this planet for and everything you see in the universe that everything came into being into existence through an evolutionary process art that the approximately fifteen billion years ago and the evolutionary process brings us to where we all and what drives the evolutionary processes is the principle of natural selection well and of course according to Darwinian and forget about God and supernatural it's not even taken in consideration everything that comes into being or came into being and that according to the reading and theory evolution is evolutionary process field goals on Europe to remember that by the principle that the argument is all that is driven by the principle of natural selection and therefore you have the argument that only those organisms reach out at fifth through seven five eight seven five that minds survival of the fit now there were people Christians and you will see I will come to show you who step in and are you that evolutionary process is the ribbon not by the principle of natural selection by by the principle of words and you get that God steps in and the evolutionary process and God becomes part of the evolutionary process that is that you speak of a Lucia Ms. Bank and out now I'll continue and that will come back to the question answer now those who elected on Gala Giuseppe wrong Kali the pulp on October twenty eight nineteen fifty eight did not expecting to make radical moves he was in an age of short months short of seventy seven and the Cardinals most likely chosen because he was liked by many three months after his election on January nineteen fifty nine John twenty third and announced his intent on being a cause everyone in Rome was surprised there was no apparent need for a cause every single console ecumenical concept try his console of Nicaea there were twenty of the every single console was on the because the church was facing a serious problem but shall and every console dealt with those challenges and every consoles dealing with certain wrong doctrines and coming up with new posters for the this is not a surprise there was no apparent need in the need for a consult now manual the conservative cardinals and dramatic they believe that he was likely once you the first Vatican Council of eighteen sixty nine eighteen seven which was interrupted and that vertical load it because all of the upper Nordic wars between the aquatic war will between Prussia and France so what happens is that he further clarified that the console will be called second Vatican Council which means he is not the first viewing reduces of the first Vatican Council this clearly made the made conservatives even more apprehensive it meant that he will not continue Vatican to now not not not Vatican what not only why but the Vatican clerics were wondering what was console supposed to infuse announcements in January twenty five fifty nine John twenty third spoke to a now listen this is very important here to understand number one subjective views from all called being like edification and joy of the higher Christian people the two expands and includes cordial invitation to the faithful of the separated school shortages but this should pay notice he does not use the term to term to participate because in this quest for unity and grace for which so many souls long in all parts of the world at this point just want to be certain the second Vatican Council did not come up in any new dock and what it was all the Protestants miss the point while one out knocking out update this something and now scholars are noticing the second Vatican Council changed the language and the style of talking and the attitude and only now we see the results of your talking dog welcomed generations gone by the loud little girl tries to this sort both John twenty three appointed preparatory clinicians to prepare the documents for the discussions members of the commission 's web aided by the experts in Utah and called parity four hundred eighty some experts would appointed by him or his successor pulled six the preparations for supermassive link never indicates that of the previous consuls the preparation stoked one a half years once at the console hardly any of these documents pass through without the vision several that were completely revise and outright rewritten John twenty third opened the console in October eleven nineteen sixty two but did not see its conclusion he passed away on June three nineteen sixty three he was succeeded by Archie Archbishop Milan of Milan Giovanni Battista Montini QuickBooks the name old six where Zarqawi was an outsider of the Vatican court cozy Council report family is Ricardo and outside of what the new was Indian side of the court and obviously some hope that the new Opel with a bond in the console and others feared that he would continue I have to remember this point I'm glad not all Catholics think the same I called an old relationship remember that not all jazz weights think the same but always actions different things on so they are aware conservatives what use that term loosely Corporation a closer look at that Ms. closer quotation marks okay and I don't like these to conservative liberals all that because they are misleading but nevertheless Enderle is the other side bonus progressives or liberals and that existed even then nineteen thirds ninety four six saw but balls six was to some degree sympathetic to the progressives and the new with the how would you go because there was a group in existence they call themselves progressives that's how they saw themselves it is the conservatives in the nineteen forties and nineteen fifties cool dog than guilt guilt lordships new theology and that you would see in a moment they were often condemned like object teaching theology so it wasn't like was known in French London wealth eulogy it was the new theology school of thought that exist and these were centered in the city all Bob all Bob of parents from the beginning it was clear that there would back the battles over the control of the cause is one document after the other was getting approval through the vault of the console it was becoming clear that the conservatives led by Cardinal of Fred Dalton of Yanni was losing the battle progressive voices with caring that they look not to the extent claimed both the victim at the back the battle for the capital of Seoul if I may use that phrase continues flour they scholars agree that the work of the consuls did not hand with its closing in nineteen sixty five it dearly set the tone and indicated the direction for the future of the church and if you can notice how it's worked was happening when the boldest six by the new ball that came to put the name John Paul became called parts of voters never in the chart never in the history before both they domains is one by choosing a name usually pulps indicate the policy when they go by choosing the name John Paul Key indicated that you will continue the policy on John twenty three and pulled six that means the spirit of Vatican II he lived only for about a month then comes a new poll border Cardinal Voight Eli elected again John pulled the second which means he's continuing the policy now John Paul the second boycott Google with the love was present at the Council he was leaning toward progressives but enough conservative not to be estranged from consultancy defaults had to be careful how they handled the situation because the conservative wing in the Vatican was quite powerful then you want to antagonize some of the faults with often step in and kind of tried to make statements use the language I'll keep these inside the house but the progressives are winning bank sought after John Paul comes who that finger he is also leaning toward more conservative so when he was elected the public should rule with this guys renovate a Baker's back without notice he chooses the name Benedict the sixteenth Benedict is reminded to the Benedict fifteen in other words that singular kind of the indicated if you make a step back but that's a Garrett did not think Syria's food challenge the authority on and spirit the second Vatican Council and then cutie diets and that was what was a very interesting for me is now I was waiting I said okay while I was expecting that the new pope will take the name of John twenty three John Paul the third up was my expectation Lord behold when they said Francis and multiple other called itself friends and when I collateralize it wow that is now I can see it now why do they get that let me tell you a story what happened when I was a dollars IPO convention workshop organized by view the emergence called the title of the convention was the emerging church Brian McLaren was there Richard Rohr was there a number of other people Brian McLaren road Richard Lord Brian McLaren where the two top speakers and the closing our on the meeting was Sunday morning of each of their order was speaking and now keeping obvious that the audience was seated about four hundred fifty people I estimate that by counting the tables of common people to build date while that some kids and most of those people are brought the stunts and all of them are with exception of me and I don't know maybe somebody else but all of those people are basically some kind of leave they come from their respective places whether their pastors teachers Sabbath school Sunday school teachers doesn't matter if some kind of leaders there there they learned the upstanding with the workshop and then they go back to promote all of these ideas and saw often key stalking through them and then this is what the reach of drawers set and this is basically a nutshell what I'm trying to present you hit Richard Rohr said for four hundred years we brought this to have been doing what you brought the stunts were doing to us but the Protestant Reformation sparked the your brought the stunt to attack on scaffold if we are teaching the wrong dog we are behaving this way about what and then we had the console and Council of Trent solidified our position separated toolbars and for four hundred years we were fighting wars with each other we were publishing books against each other we would not put them what into the charge of the other all the churches were just across the state and you said we were sorting arrows if each other for four hundred years what we've thought you said we Catholics now into the Protestant threat because your Protestants where taking the Bible and try to prove laws doctrinally that we were wrong aces what we have done we organized ourselves and you probably heard the Dominican order and old Franciscans of the many grounds on and your brother mentioned judgments of the adjustments are organized by then about fifteen forties does the little before the opening the Council of Trent you know with the jazz it's all the Jesuits are selected Jan then who are highly intelligent excellent the learning what trains to be intellectual athletes to start the ride books and proved the Protestants wrong out the this San Francisco event visit the tall large Catholic orders that go back to the late Middle Ages dollars for this both of them value education except that the Dominicans emphasize education where as Franciscans emphasize prayer and contemplation of both of them appreciate and thought of them have they contemplated by the end salt Dominicans are the ones who control Arctic human face and want to prove the opponents roll social draws that for four hundred years we were doing with your Protestants were doing and we finally recognize by the nineteen fifth is that we are making a mistake and we have decided at the second Vatican comes to stop the leading weed you brought the spends the Dominican way and we decided to do it Franciscan no one is talking about when I would argue would you enable we are not going to say that you Protestants are wrong we are not going to say to you on our apostate brothers of that you have to return a nonmarital debt all we ask you let Oz for a forget a lot of people think that's that is crucial when the new fall announced I'm France's this guy now observed his statements observe his behavior he is in my opinion the best embodiment the second Vatican Council the generations but it's happened okay zone is the time to go through this life prepare yourself for questions and answer later I already gave you some extra material here anyway but you need to see this okay I read this as fast as you can as early as August sixty John twenty three appointed candidate will block at similar well-known theologian whose ideas were previously condemned Michael Mann DeGeneres and see what that is in a minute as Betty due to want of Yanni you see what John did John gave blood of Yanni was no as a staunch conservative he gave him responsibility to organize core businesses when cool we'll put together documents for the concert and salt of Yanni which is that there were ten clinicians which were putting together a document the second Vatican Council eventually proved useful of crosses six the document John appointed to each of these clinicians one or two or three old experts who would but experts have no right to vote pages have a right to consult them to advise Buck and his old box tells us he when he was sitting those provisions are called committees he had very little to influence however the documents would come before the cause which is not about more than one half thousand people up Andrea Goldbach now has influenced because people know who he is and this is where these experts would make this contribution now and scholars agreed today collar rain and the will bought it from God and many of the other well-known theologians are the balls influential theologians at the second Vatican Council all the documents and matter-of-fact the most important the dock because there are categories of reports none of the documents prepared by the clinicians ended up the same for all of Delaware rewritten because the console with the fumes and send them back back and forth back and forth and the documents that ended up where documents say and influence by the new geology experts not what looked beyond the then thought it was very arrived book of this how John handles all that it was I don't want to crafty blog keep it now I am not mentioned one name and I leave that goes I'm going to talk about this afternoon at the for the man who is the most responsible for things to caboose a visa because all of this new theology there alters the caboose they stick evolution is mysticism and call to home it's an postmodern postmodernism longer can call that approach to reality all of these birds the person responsible is well known scientists out on tall and at the same time well known to and says he will more than a year they are similar in the media might not ever as poorly as long as you like to learn more and I I I and you will and I is a whore as our online service and www. on my universe


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